Thunderbird Entertainment Group Inc

XTSX:TBRD

Earnings Call Transcript 2021-Q3

[Operator]

Thank you for joining us. We are here to provide a corporate update and report on Thunderbird Entertainment Group's third quarter 2021 fiscal results, which ended March 31, 2021.Speaking on today's call are Ms. Jennifer Twiner McCarron, Thunderbird's, CEO; and Ms. Barb Harwood, Thunderbird's CFO. Ms. Twiner McCarron will provide a strategic overview of Thunderbird Entertainment Group, and Ms. Harwood will review the company's Q3 financials.[Operator Instructions] Alternatively, if you have any questions, you can call [phone] or e-mail [e-mail]. The company will follow up directly after the call. [Operator Instructions]I'd like to remind everyone that certain statements made on today's call will be forward looking and constitute forward-looking statements or forward-looking information under applicable securities laws. Forward-looking statements and information discussed on this conference call include, but are not limited to, statements with respect to company's objectives, goals, future plans and the business operations of the company. Forward-looking statements are necessarily based on a number of estimates and assumptions that, while considered reasonable, are subject to known and unknown risks, uncertainties and other factors, which may cause actual results and future events to differ materially from those expressed or implied by such forward-looking statements. Such factors include, but are not limited to, general business, economic and social uncertainties, litigation, legislative, environmental and other judicial, regulatory, political and competitive developments. Those additional risks are set out in the company's filing statements and other public documents filed on SEDAR at www.sedar.com and other matters discussed in the company's year-end news release. Although the company believes that the assumptions and factors in preparing these forward-looking statements are reasonable, undue reliance should not be placed on these statements, which only apply as of the date of this presentation and no assurance can be given that such events will occur in the disclosed time frames or at all. Except as required by law, the company disclaims any intention or obligation to update or revise any forward-looking statements. Whether as a result of new information, future events or otherwise.For your convenience, the press release, the MD&A and unaudited financial statements for the third quarter of 2021 of Thunderbird Entertainment Group, which ended March 31, 2021, are filed on SEDAR and are available online under the Investors section of our website. We do not expect to update forward-looking statements continually as conditions change. This conference call is being webcast live, and the archive will be available on the company's website at www.thunderbird.tv following today's call. Please note that Thunderbird reports in Canadian dollars unless otherwise stated.Ms. Twiner McCarron will now provide the corporate update.

[Jennifer Twiner McCarron, President, CEO & Director]

Thank you so much. On behalf of everyone at Thunderbird, I'd like to welcome you to this morning's call to discuss our Q3 results for fiscal 2021, which ended March 31, 2021. My name is Jennifer Twiner McCarron, and I'm the President and CEO of Thunderbird Entertainment Group. I'm here today with our CFO, Barb Harwood, and we are both very thankful to have you here with us. Once Barb and I finish our update, we will be happy to answer all questions you may have.Thunderbird Entertainment is a high-quality global content company. We create, own and distribute award-winning, factual, animated and scripted content around the world. We have meaningful and trusted partnerships with all of the major streamers and broadcasters, such as Netflix, HBO Max, Apple, Disney, Discovery, NBCUniversal, PBS, CBC, to list only a few. In addition, we have over 1,000 employees, with a head office in Vancouver and other locations in Los Angeles, Ottawa and Toronto.Q3 was another strong quarter for Thunderbird and a true reflection of the extraordinary work of our talented teams, in addition to the continued demand we are seeing for our company's premium content. Throughout the quarter, we continued to scale up, bringing on new team members across the entire organization. We also secured some exciting new partnerships, a few of which we'll discuss later in this call.In a moment, Barb will walk us through the numbers for Q3. But before that, I want to take a quick moment to highlight 2 elements, which are not only incredibly important at Thunderbird but also the main drivers of our company's success.The first is our team, the creators and producers behind our content. Our team propels the company forward through phenomenal work that they produce and deliver to our global partners. Thunderbird would not be where it is at today and growing so rapidly if it was not for our people. From our animators to our film crews, to our producers, to IT, to HR and finance, each department is filled with remarkable individuals, all contributing in specific and impactful ways. In fact, in a year when many production companies struggled, our teams demonstrated incredible resilience by coming together. Despite the need to quickly move everyone off-site to prioritize health and safety, we have not missed 1 delivery or created 1 financial overage for any of our partners, only deepening all of our partners' trust in us.As a CEO, I'm always thrilled to celebrate the accomplishments of our people because everything starts with them. We want to make sure that all voices are heard and valued and that no one feels just like a number. We also want to create a culture of excellence where people feel safe to innovate and safe to take risks. When you're enabled the chance to try new things, regardless of the results, innovation will arise.This brings me to my second highlight, which is our content. At Thunderbird, our mission is to create content that makes the world a better place, makes people happy and provides a much needed escape, especially during these unprecedented times. By keeping quality as our North Star, we're receiving recognition within our communities, the industry and from our peers. Thunderbird aims to have our content entertain, inspire and empower. And in many cases, we're also giving a voice to stories that need to be told.During and subsequent to the quarter, I'm proud to report that our productions are recognized with nominations and awards from the following outlets and organizations: the Banff Rockie Awards 2021, Youth Media Alliance, Kidscreen, The Canadian Screen Awards, The Leo Awards, The Telly Awards and the Nickelodeon Kids' Choice Awards. Some of the many productions that continue to turn heads are Molly of Denali, Queen of the Oil Patch, Kim's Convenience, all of which are recognized for how they champion inclusive representation with diverse and authentic lead characters. We are so proud to tell stories like these and believe that everybody in the world deserves the opportunity to see themselves on popular content reflected back in a positive light.Productions like these clearly demonstrate our commitment to diversity and inclusivity, both onscreen and behind camera, and we're doubling down on our mission to make a positive difference in the world. For example, we are proud to have won the BC Business of Good Award for diversity and inclusion. And more recently, on behalf of my team, I was also recognized by BC Business as an Equity and Inclusion Champion in the 2021 Women of the Year Awards. This is work that our entire company believes in as part of our core mission and values, and it also reflects our commitment to helping advance issues of gender representation and the inclusion of BIPOC and LGBTQ2S and communities.As a global content creation company, we not only have the unique ability to influence society through the stories we create but we also have the responsibility to audiences to deliver on that promise. In addition, we know that diverse and inclusive companies where people feel safe and honored also perform better at every level of the organization. Increasing focus on diversity and inclusivity is not just the right thing to do, it's also extremely good for business, the results of which Barb will now discuss. After that, I'll be back to dig in to some more of the company specifics.However, just before Barb gets started, please join me in congratulating Barb for being named by Report on Business as one of the top 50 best executives in Canada. Congrats, Barb. Over to you.

[Barb Harwood, Chief Financial Officer]

Thanks, Jen. I'm very fortunate to work with an incredible finance team at Thunderbird who support me every day and certainly make me look better than I would otherwise.And now to the Q3 results. Q3 was our strongest quarter ever with revenue of $37.7 million and $85.4 million for the 3 and 9 months ending March 31, 2021, as compared to $29.6 million and $60.2 million for the comparative periods of fiscal 2020, increases of 27% and 42%, respectively. The majority of these increases over the comparative periods in 2020 is related to growth in production services attributed to the Kids & Family Division.The company has 2 principal revenue streams: production services and licensing and distribution. Production services revenue is earned for service work performed on projects where the company does not own the IP. Licensing and distribution revenue is earned when the company owns the copyright to a project and subsequently enters into a broadcast or distribution agreement to license the project for a specific term.Production services revenue was $19.4 million and $53.2 million, increases over Q3 2020 of $6.6 million and $18.4 million or 52% and 53%, respectively, which was due to an increase in the number and size of contract. Licensing and distribution revenue was $18.3 million and $32.1 million for the 3 and 9 months ended March 31, 2021, increases of 9%, $1.5 million, and 27%, $6.8 million, over the comparative period, due mainly to the delivery of another 3 episodes of the animated series to Last Kids on Earth in the current period.In the current quarter, the company also recognized revenue from 13 episodes of Kim's Convenience season 5, and 40 episodes of 3 factual series, Heavy Rescue: 401, Mud Mountain Haulers and $ave My Reno. In the comparative quarter, revenue was recognized from 13 episodes of Kim's Convenience Season 4 and 35 episodes of 3 factual series, Heavy Rescue, High Arctic Haulers and $ave My Reno.Gross margins decreased from 38% to 33% in the 9 months ending March 31, 2021, over the comparative 9 months. Gross margins for owned content are typically higher than production services due to the fact that content stays in our library and is able to earn recurring revenue. There is also a variety in the gross margins of our own content because each series is its own business model. Gross margin for production services alternatively is typically lower than that of owned content. When production service revenue increases, as an overall percentage of our revenue, our margins may decrease. Production services revenue as a percentage of overall revenue increased from 58% to 62% year-to-date.In addition, due to the incredible strength of our quarter, we took the time to conservatively look at older titles in our library. With Richard Goldsmith joining in January as President of Consumer Products and Distribution, he was able to use his expertise to advise on titles and their ultimate worth. As a result, we decided to record an additional amortization of investment in content of $1.5 million this quarter, further strengthening our balance sheet while continuing to put up great numbers and excellent growth trajectory. Year-to-date, the company's production backlog was $102.2 million compared to $86.1 million as at March 31, 2020. The backlog is defined as the undiscounted value of signed agreements for production services and licensing and distribution agreements for which the title expects to recognize revenue in future periods.Adjusted EBITDA was $7.4 million and $17.3 million for the 3 and 9 months ended March 31, 2021, increases of 8%, $0.5 million, and 39%, $4.8 million, respectively. These increases were primarily due to growth in production services revenue over the comparable period, as mentioned before. I want to point out an input error in the EBITDA table in the press release only. Deferred income tax is showing as $1.405 million and $980,000 for the 3 and 9 months ending March 31, 2021. The correct numbers for deferred income tax expense, which can be found in the MD&A on Page 8 are $1.014 million and $589,000. All other numbers in the EBITDA table in the press release are correct.Free cash flow was $1.8 million and $7.5 million for the 3 and 9 months ended March 31, 2021, a decrease of $2.7 million and an increase of $2.8 million, respectively. These fluctuations are mainly due to changes in working capital and production loan repayments. And finally, the consolidated cash position at March 31 was $18.8 million, with $11.5 million being required for production and $7.3 million available for general use. In addition, the company continues to operate with no corporate debt.And now back to you, Jen.

[Jennifer Twiner McCarron, President, CEO & Director]

Thanks so much, Barb. Q3 is typically strong in our business. And this is tied to some of our production's delivery schedules. It should also be noted that quarters can be lumpy in this industry, and it's best to evaluate the company's growth on an annual basis because this is where you will see a natural and exciting growth cadence with us in year-over-year results. We're still on track in 2021 to meet or beat the growth that we saw in 2020.At this point, I'd like to take a deeper look at our Q3 corporate update. This quarter, Thunderbird was in production on 21 projects, with 10 of them being owned IP or partner managed. Our Kids & Family Division, Atomic Cartoons, was in various stages of production on 12 animated series and 2 feature-length animation projects, 14 productions in total. This included Mighty Express for Netflix, produced in partnership with Spin Master; Molly of Denali Season 2 for GBH and PBS KIDS; The Last Kids on Earth for Netflix; My Little Pony for Hasbro and Entertainment One; Team Up for Disney+, bringing Spider-Verse to the critical set, and we're also producing another Curious George film for Peacock.Atomic's owned IP for The Last Kids on Earth also saw 2 new exciting milestones in the quarter, including the premier of our company's first-ever Netflix interactive special in April, which subsequently made Netflix' top 10 list for all shows watched, not just Kids & Family, and a June 4 launch for upcoming video game with Outright Games. These 2 achievements demonstrate the importance of owned IP for us at Thunderbird. And The Last Kids on Earth is just the start of what we've got in the works. In addition to the video game deal we have with Outright, we've also secured a master toy deal with JAKKS Pacific and an online apparel deal with retailer Hot Topic. I'll speak more about our growing IP strategy in just a moment.Circling back to a few of the awards I mentioned earlier, subsequent to the quarter, after winning Peabody and Television Critics Association Award in 2020, Atomic's Molly of Denali was nominated for a Youth Media Alliance of Excellence, which actually we just found out we won about 5 minutes before this call, Banff Rockie Awards. So congrats -- a huge congrats to the Molly of Denali team. Following on its 2020 Daytime Emmy Awards, The Last Kids on Earth was also nominated for Youth Media Awards. And just this past month, teams at Atomic Cartoons also received 15 Leo Awards nominations across 5 different projects. I'd like to offer huge thanks to our industry partners for recognizing the hard work of our various casting crews. We could not be more proud.It's such an exciting time at Atomic. Prior to COVID-19, we were in the midst of an animation boom with heightened demand for animation, including adult animation. The pandemic has only accelerated the demand for animated content. Our Kids & Family Division has an animation team of 800 people between 3 locations and is trending towards exceeding 900 people by the end of the calendar year 2021. Additional content, in 2015, we had 18 bid requests. In 2020, we had 67 bid requests. And in 2021, we are on track for over 80 bid requests, which averages out roughly to a week. These bids include all business models, service, partnerships and IP.Shifting our focus to our Factual and Scripted Division, Great Pacific Media was in production on 6 series and 1 documentary special in the second quarter: Highway Thru Hell Season 10; Heavy Rescue: 401 Season 6; $ave My Reno Season 4; Mud Mountain Haulers Season 1; Dr. Savannah: Wild Rose Vet Season 1; and Strays Season 1, which is our follow-up to Kim's Convenience, our spin-off; and the Teenager and the Lost Mayan City, which is an upcoming documentary for CBC.I'd like to take a moment to focus on Dr. Savannah: Wild Rose Vet, which is the first project to be made through our new joint partnership with Wapanatahk Media. This documentary-style series, which is scheduled to air on APTN and Cottage Life in 2022, follows the remarkable Métis veterinarian, Dr. Savannah Howse-Smith as she works to keep rural Alberta's pet and animal population healthy and thriving, all while learning more about her recently confirmed Métis blood line. As part of our work to create industry opportunities for the BIPOC community, this series is actively recruiting indigenous production staff in Vancouver and Alberta.It will also sponsor apprenticeships throughout the summer of 2021. Headed by the talented indigenous production team of Shirley McLean and Tania Koenig-Gauchier, Wapanatahk Media represents the next evolution in our commitment to promoting diversity and authentic representation. It builds on the legacy of other indigenous productions we've been proud to make, including Queen of the Oil Patch, which was also just nominated for a 2021 Leo Award. Also at Great Pacific, we're very proud that $ave My Reno, our lifestyle series for HDTV, was also nominated for a 2021 Leo Award. And hot off the press, Corus just announced yesterday 35 greenlights and renewals, of which there are 3 new Great Pacific Media series. We will have more to share on this in the coming weeks.On the Scripted side, I wanted to highlight an upcoming comedy production called Strays, which is a spin-off of Kim's Convenience. Strays is slated to premiere on CBC Television in 2021-'22 television season and will follow Shannon Ross, or Nicole Power, as she embarks on a new career in a new city. Many of the creatives behind Kim's Convenience are also attached to Strays, and we look forward to seeing how our audiences respond when it premieres.Speaking of Kim's, it was announced that Kim's Convenience would end after these 5 groundbreaking seasons. We are so incredibly proud of everyone involved in this series. At Thunderbird, as producers, we would have loved to keep going beyond 5 seasons, but we always support our showrunners in their creative decisions. And Ins Choi and Kevin White, the co-creators of Kim's, felt that the series and its characters had run their course, and the vision was to end on a high note, which we can get behind. We're also proud of the enduring legacy that.Kim's Convenience leaves behind as one of Canada's most popular scripted comedies, including winning 4 Canadian Screen Awards just recently, including Best Actor in a Comedy, Best Supporting Actor in a Comedy, Best Guest Actor in a Comedy and Best Photography in a Comedy. It was also nominated for 2 Leo Awards, which will be announced later this month. We also cannot wait to see what the talented cast and crew of Kim's Convenience will come up with next, starting with Simu Liu starring in the upcoming Marvel film, Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings, scheduled to premiere this September. In addition to Nicole Power and Strays, Andrew Phung also has an upcoming series in production for CBC, which is entitled, Run the Burbs. Paul Sun-Hyung Lee and Jean Yoon also have some exciting projects in the works, and we can't wait to see those come to fruition.Now I'd like to focus on our IP strategy. To take full advantage of the opportunities we have from leveraging our growing IP library, we have launched a new Global Distribution and Consumer Products Division in Q3 headed by Richard Goldsmith whom we are incredibly honored to have joined our team. Well regarded as one of the best in the industry and having worked with Disney, Warner Bros., The Jim Henson Company, Richard joined Thunderbird because he saw the incredible work taking place in our studios. Since bringing him onboard, our leadership team have been seeing regular calls from partners around the world asking, "Wow, how did you hire Richard?"This new division will allow us to further increase and exploit our IP ownership in video games merch, cross-media exploitation, as we produce and distribute content around the world. This means we will be able to further increase and leverage ownership for Thunderbird properties and no longer need to bring on third-party consumer products to distribution partners. The division also means we have the capacity to act in this role for other companies seeking expertise, representing another opportunity to diversify and grow our business.Beyond our IP for the New York Times' best-selling book series, The Last Kids on Earth, other announced properties that were setting up with a new division include Nate Create with The Jim Henson Company of Muppets fame and Mermicorno from Tokidoki, the insanely popular Japanese-inspired lifestyle brand. We've also identified several IP opportunities from our Factual and Scripted Division, including video games emanating from our action-oriented factual series like Heavy Rescue: 401.Before I conclude my remarks today, I'd like to share a few recent survey findings from Deloitte, which confirms that 2021 continues to be an excellent time to be in the business of content creation. According to Deloitte, 82% of U.S. consumers now subscribe to at least 1 paid streaming video service, and the average subscriber is already paying for 4 separate platforms. When you factor in these consumer preferences to what streamers were willing to spend on content with more than $112 billion estimated spend in 2021 alone, the opportunities we have before us as Thunderbird Entertainment Group are truly massive.The consolidation that we're seeing in the industry only helps companies like Thunderbird as high-quality premium content like Thunderbird continue to be under increasing demand. The confidence our global partners place in Thunderbird is one of the key reasons we have dozens of projects in our development pipeline, plus visibility and bookings well into 2023. We also have some exciting new projects that are just entering production plus a batch of recently confirmed series renewals. As soon as we're able to share the details, you'll be among your first to know.As I wrap up my remarks today, I'd like to thank you again for joining us to discuss the results we achieved in the third quarter of fiscal 2021. We are well on our way to becoming the next major global studio and are thrilled to be on this journey with all of you.Now Barb and I are pleased to take any and all of your questions. Thank you so much.

[Operator]

[Operator Instructions] Your first question comes from the line of Barry Sine with Spartan Capital Securities.

[Barry Sine, Director of Research]

First question is on Kim's Convenience and a broader question on scripted in general. I've recently discovered that it's really a great program. I think it is representative of your culture. Your first scripted program, but very successful. You sold at the largest streamer, and you pick up a lot of the Canadian subsidies for production costs. You've announced the first spin. So a couple of questions on that. Will that be picked up in the U.S., presumably? Are there more projects coming from the producers? You've talked a bit about the some of the actors and what they're doing. And then just from a macro perspective, scripted, even though you don't have a lot of scripted programs, it seems like you've been very, very successful. So from an investor standpoint, you would seem to want more and more and more of that. Can you talk about that, please?

[Jennifer Twiner McCarron, President, CEO & Director]

Yes, absolutely. So to address the first part of your question, definitely, Kim's is ours. We own the copyright. We will distribute it. So all of those 5 seasons stay with us. We can set them up anywhere around the world and continue to find life in those seasons. It already is airing second window with Netflix. But we have the ability to sell Kim's Convenience to whoever we want.And with regards to our scripted strategy. That's a great question, Barry. We've approached it opportunistically. We're really lucky that our 2 main drivers: Great Pacific Media and Atomic Cartoons, Kids & Family and Factual check that key co-viewing box that -- every streamer's strategy is that you need to glue Kids & Family to glue subscribers. And what do kids and family watch? Animation or factual. They're much less likely to subscribe and unsubscribe when kids and families are glued. Scripted is a part of our strategy going forward. We want to create diverse content that appeals around the globe.We've taken really safe swings. You can look at some of our comps and see how sometimes it can go very, very well and sometimes not. I think part of our extremely clean balance sheet and growth is that while we take calculated risks, we want to be sure of the return on that investment. So I would say, absolutely, stay tuned for more scripted. There is some amazing discussion in the works. But we're going to approach it in a way where we feel really confident of its success and delivery to our shareholders.

[Barry Sine, Director of Research]

And just on that, the production team is still working with Thunderbird and we may see some progress from them?

[Jennifer Twiner McCarron, President, CEO & Director]

100%. That's correct.

[Barry Sine, Director of Research]

That's great news. A question for Barb -- or actually, a couple of questions, if you don't mind, on some of the numbers. I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, this is the first time we're seeing the backlog number. And you described what that means. And that's in the MD&A. How does that relate? If I look at that backlog number, how can I use that as a forward-looking indicator to look at future revenue? Specifically, how far out might that backlog come into revenue? And I know you discussed in the description of backlog that there are certain types of revenue that are not included in the backlog number, variable and so on. I don't know how important those types of revenue are versus the other types that are in the backlog. Could you give us a sense of how we can use backlog to forecast future results?

[Barb Harwood, Chief Financial Officer]

Great question. Thanks, Barry. Yes, backlog is something that we're disclosing for the first time this quarter. And essentially, what it is, it's the main bulk of our business. It's the production service agreements for production, the licensing and distribution agreements. And what it is, is any time an agreement is signed, if we have not yet recognized that revenue, it will fall into backlog. And given the fact that usually an agreement isn't signed until we're greenlit and we're almost starting the production and that kind of thing, the backlog is typically going to be recognized within 12 to 24 months. And given that this is the first time I'm starting to track those numbers, I'll start to see a pattern as we continue to disclose it. The variable portion of it is relatively minuscule. The things that we can't predict, of course, in backlog is FX wins from U.S. contracts and that kind of thing. Does that help?

[Barry Sine, Director of Research]

And then the time line, does it go out years or months or days?

[Barb Harwood, Chief Financial Officer]

Between 12 and 24 months. The majority of it is in the next 12 months.

[Barry Sine, Director of Research]

Okay. And another question for you, Barb, while I have you on the hot seat, if you don't mind. You gave out some nonfinancial metrics, specifically the number of episodes that are recognized in licensing and distribution revenue. And then on production, when you gave those numbers out, you gave those out in terms of the number of series that you're working on. I want to ask you again, if I can get a little assistance, on using those numbers to understand what you've just reported. So for example, licensing and production, I think you called out 56 episodes. Is that inclusive? I'm assuming it's not. There's some library that was recognized. And then on production, can we use that as a forward indicator? Presumably, you're producing them now, those are going to show up in revenue going forward.

[Barb Harwood, Chief Financial Officer]

Yes. So in our MD&A, we disclosed between production services revenue and licensing and distribution. The licensing and distribution is our owned content. So when we disclose what number of episodes that we are recognizing in that licensing and distribution number, that kind of gives you an idea of what content is in that number. Now unfortunately, as I mentioned, every project is sort of a different business model, so you can't just take that number, divide it by 40 episodes and come up with a per episode number because each project has a different model and a different finance plan and that kind of stuff. But it does give you an idea on a year-over-year basis of what like a future period might look like if we have season renewals because we've had so many season renewals: our Heavy Rescue, we're in Season 5; Mud Mountain Haulers, Season 1; $ave My Reno, Season 4, that kind of stuff. So if you can look back at the past history, you can kind of predict the future as long as you know that those series are renewed.On the production services side, it's a little bit more difficult. We talk about what we're in production now to sort of indicate that in future periods, we will have revenue coming in for production services, which is recognized on a percentage of completion basis. So I guess, logically, if you look at a particular project in production services, our animation pipelines are between -- probably the shortest is 12 months up to 2 years. You know that, that project is going to be contributing revenue and direct costs over that period of time. Does that help?

[Barry Sine, Director of Research]

That's incredible. And just one clarification. So on licensing and distribution, you've called out 56 episodes. Does that represent all of the revenue reported or the majority? Or are there some other sources of revenue in there?

[Barb Harwood, Chief Financial Officer]

There'll be some other sources of revenue that are more minor. Like every quarter, we always have some library revenues, so some projects that have already been delivered. There'll be things like music royalties and that kind of thing. But the bulk of it is from those first initial deliveries on those shows that we disclosed. And yes, I'm adding them up, 53 episodes plus 3, actually. So we're 56 episodes. We had 40 episodes of the Factual series and 13 episodes of Kim's and 3 episodes of The Last Kids.

[Operator]

And your next question comes from the line of Aravinda Galappatthige with [ IGE ].

[Unknown Analyst]

I have a couple of questions. Jen, just on the owned IP. I know you talked about the success you've had with Last Kids on Earth. You're doing a lot of good service work for the other major SVOD platforms. I wanted to sort of get some insight into what conversations you might be having with respect to work on the owned IP side. So these other major platforms, if you think about Apple, Peacock, HBO Max, et cetera, is there anything in the pipeline given you've already done some good service work for them? So I wanted to get some color there. And secondly, maybe for Barb, on the backlog. Are you able to kind of give us a sense of the split between production and service? I don't know if it was in the MD&A but just wondering if there's any clarification you can provide there?

[Jennifer Twiner McCarron, President, CEO & Director]

Thanks so much, Aravinda. Definitely, we are having a lot of conversations. The team that Richard -- our team in Los Angeles, our development team, has been out pitching shows. We are working with all of the streamers pretty much. And so when you do a great job in service, it is that much easier to turn around to sell your own IP. And there's a lot of exciting things I can't speak in detail right now. But we have a very strong slate. We're bringing out several projects at a time. And yes, there's a ton of activity and conversations happening, of which I'm very excited about.

[Barb Harwood, Chief Financial Officer]

And in terms of your backlog question, we do not disclose the separation between the IP and service yet. Backlog is, obviously, a new thing this quarter. And it would be a good question so we'll think about that for future quarters as we track the backlog.

[Unknown Analyst]

And just one more before I hand off. You've had a good balance sheet for a long period of time. I know that you are not close to the idea of M&A. Can you just talk to what your thoughts are, is it essentially the same, you're looking for potentially opportunities on the international front and perhaps even IP? Has anything changed? Is valuation a problem? Just wanted to get a sense of what you're running into when you think about M&A, what's sort of turning you off or what feedback you're getting.

[Jennifer Twiner McCarron, President, CEO & Director]

Yes. We are, I'd say, increasing conversations in that area, Aravinda. We are extremely excited about having more of an international footprint, be it, one, to go -- where are the streamers going? Where do they need to increase subscriptions? Where are countries we can own and turn on more of our own IP? Where are countries that will provide us a greater capacity pipeline as well as developing those countries into being their own IP giants in and of their own right? And we are looking within North America as well for complementary exciting skill sets.As we discussed, we've got a really clean balance sheet. We have fantastic organic growth with wonderful visibility. So we're in this fortunate position of having a runway where we don't need to look at anything like a roll-up strategy. Getting bigger for the sake of getting bigger is not of interest to us. We're being strategic. We have a lot of great opportunities at hand, and we have many conversations underway.

[Operator]

And your next question comes from the line of Adam Wilk with Greystone Capital Management.

[Adam Wilk]

So I guess I can just follow up on the last set of questions by asking some more about M&A. Within that talk, I guess what type of situation do you think would be most attractive in terms of like the actual content? I know it's tough to say, but are you looking at more of like maybe the animated space or more like production documentary-type space? And how would you kind of value that sort of thing? And how are you sort of thinking about the returns on that potential spend? I guess kind of what I'm asking is like how are production companies valued? And how are you guys kind of looking at that as you kind of scan the landscape?

[Jennifer Twiner McCarron, President, CEO & Director]

Yes, great question, Adam. We're looking across all of our core competencies in terms of making an international play and being able to leverage the great relationship we have with the streamers. They would love us to have ownership in countries where they're required to turn on content native to that region. So that could be animated. It could be factual. It could be scripted. Certainly, when we look at companies and their valuation, we're thinking what's their runway, do they have the competency internally to create their own IP, are they doing excellent work, do they have a shared value system, is quality their North Star, how do they treat their employees, will be a huge trust. And as we continue to dig in with the many conversations that we have, looking at culture, strategy, the financials have to make sense, it needs to be accretive.And we think is this a [ wise investment ], will the market and our partners and the core of our business respond to this in a way that says, "Oh, that makes a ton of sense. This is amazing." All of those things in mind, and we feel really fortunate that we are having so many conversations in that. Really inspiring, exciting companies around the world are happy to have these conversations with us. So they're well underway as we continue to use our wonderful organic growth runway of work that's already well booked. But of course, we do have a goal to become the next major global studio and, with that, comes an international play and increased ownership. So it's incredibly exciting for our team as we embark upon the journey.

[Adam Wilk]

Yes. That's really helpful. And just in line with your comments, the distribution part, I get completely. But is M&A talk also kind of a statement on maybe there's a ceiling of organic growth? Or how are you guys kind of thinking about that? Obviously, as you scale, it requires increased investment in talent, which I don't really know the landscape in that respect too well. But is there sort of a cap on that? Is it how you're looking at that? Or is it just more like a complement or to enhance distribution? How are you guys kind of thinking about that?

[Jennifer Twiner McCarron, President, CEO & Director]

Yes. So we want to keep putting up the same numbers we have in the year-over-year growth. And just getting bigger for the sake of getting bigger, at a certain point, you'll stop to do what you do really well, which is make really high-quality content and be a company that every buyer wants to work with. And so there's a lot of different strategies behind it. If we were to acquire a company that creates their own IP, then we're feeding our own consumer products and distribution lines. We're looking at complementary core competencies, maybe it's in technology that we're using, certain different types of production that we could look at companies also that can help us expand capacity because they have similar pipeline, and we can fill them.When you say no to a lot of work. So we're confident that if we were to acquire someone overseas, we can keep them busy. And we can also tap into what makes these companies great with regards to countries that have similar tax credit structure to Canada, where the government is invested in the industry, they have tax credits, they have bills that are being passed similar to Canada that say, "Hey, streamers, if you want to stream here, a certain percentage of the profits you make, you need to reinvest it into the system." All of that strategy comes into play when we're circling around who to target.

[Adam Wilk]

That's really helpful. Just 2 more higher-level questions for me. You kind of touched on one a second ago a little bit. Just in talking about the current environment, now that the world and I'm assuming Hollywood, et cetera, is getting comfortable sort of going back to normal, has your pipeline or demand environment changed at all? Are you seeing sort of any increased competition for bids, et cetera? I know you just mentioned you're turning down a lot of work. Any color you want to provide on that would be helpful.

[Jennifer Twiner McCarron, President, CEO & Director]

Yes. No, if anything, it's just heating up. So it just allows us as a company to be in the luxurious position of sort of choosing what makes the best alignment for quality, for business sense, all of that. The boom for content is here to stay. Industry-wide, the professional opinion is that, at least for the next 5, 7, 8 years, this incredible boom and investment in content that we're seeing is not going anywhere.

[Adam Wilk]

Fair enough. And then last one, in looking at recently reported gross margins -- or I guess, just in general, what sort of revenue mix and why would be optimal for you guys to see either short term or maybe down the road in terms of the mix between service work and licensing and distribution? And how are you sort of thinking about layering your consumer products and distribution on top of that as it maybe relates to like a percent of your business that you're interested in seeing it grow to?

[Jennifer Twiner McCarron, President, CEO & Director]

Yes. Certainly, we are increasing our focus on IP by -- we're so fortunate to hire Richard Goldsmith. And by opening up that division, it allows us to be able to turn more work into IP. But it's a very healthy mix. And we will -- the next couple of years are investment. We won't start to see the fruit of the labor of having to sell new shows, making them and setting up consumer products and whatnot until sort of '23, '24, '25. So it takes a while to turn all that work on and to start to see the fruits of that labor. So continuing forward, we'll keep adding shows, be it partnership, service, IP. Currently, we have a pretty healthy mix and, again, start to see the real benefit of that investment increase content in '23 and beyond.

[Operator]

And your next question comes from the line of David McFadgen with Cormark Securities.

[David John McFadgen, Director of Institutional Equity Research]

A couple of questions. If I can just maybe ask you a question about your expectations for 2021. You said that you expect to record the same level or higher of growth that you experienced in 2020. And I was just wondering, is that for revenue or EBITDA? Or is that for both?

[Jennifer Twiner McCarron, President, CEO & Director]

That's for both, David.

[David John McFadgen, Director of Institutional Equity Research]

Okay. Excellent. And then just on the backlog, could you give us the breakdown between 2 divisions, Kids & Family and the scripted and nonscripted?

[Barb Harwood, Chief Financial Officer]

Yes. David, we don't actually do that. We don't disclose that breakdown. We see it more as a production services versus IP. Just as we don't disclose animation versus factual divisions, we see them as all one company.

[David John McFadgen, Director of Institutional Equity Research]

Okay. And then just a question on Strays. Obviously, this is a replacement for Kim's Convenience. I was just wondering, does it have the same or similar financial impact with Kim's Convenience?

[Jennifer Twiner McCarron, President, CEO & Director]

I'd say extremely similar, if not slightly better.

[Operator]

And at this time, there are no further audio questions. This concludes our call today. If you have questions, please call [phone] or e-mail [e-mail]. Thank you, and have a good day.