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Elringklinger AG
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Good day, and welcome to the ElringKlinger Group Analyst Conference Q3 2020. Today's conference is being recorded. At this time, I would like to turn the conference over to Mr. Stefan Wolf. Please go ahead, sir.
Yes. Thank you very much. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to our conference call today with regard to the results of the third quarter of the ElringKlinger Group worldwide. Well, after 2 quarters of pandemic consequences, the first quarter especially in China and the second in Europe and North America, the third quarter was really characterized by a robust global recovery and kind of a steady return to normality even though and that -- we have to see that the global production is still under prior year's level after the first 9 months of 2020. ElringKlinger can present today a solid set of results especially with regards to the general economic framework that we have right now. We benefit from our efficiency enhancement program, which has been implemented in early 2019 already. Therefore, despite a decrease of revenues of 7.5% in organic terms compared to the third quarter 2019, we have been able to improve the group's profitability. We achieved an EBIT of EUR 18.9 million, which takes the group earnings back into the positive territory after the first 9 months. It corresponds to an EBIT margin of 5% in the third quarter, which is, from our point of view, quite good. In addition, we generated an operating free cash flow of EUR 78.6 million in the third quarter. And thus, we have reduced the net financial debt by further EUR 68 million. If you look at that overall, we have now decreased net financial debt by more than EUR 280 million over the past 18 months. Moreover, ElringKlinger has recently concluded a groundbreaking agreement in the field of our fuel cell technology. Remember, we do that since 20 years. We have entered into a strategic partnership with Airbus for the purpose of evolving fuel cell technology in the field of aviation. And at the same time, we have agreed in alliance with the French supplier company, Plastic Omnium, in order to co-shape the future of hydrogen-based mobility and the focus being here on the vehicle sector. And last but not least, we have announced -- you probably read that, all of you, a noteworthy contract with zepp.solutions, which includes fuel cell stacks for logistics centers and for ports. Let me outline the 2 milestone contracts for ElringKlinger signed in October. That is Airbus and Plastic Omnium. In mid-October, we have entered into an agreement with Airbus for a long-term partnership within the area of fuel cell technology. Following the delivery of stacks and customized test rigs this summer, the agreement will see ElringKlinger and Airbus work together to initially develop and validate aviation-compatible fuel cell stacks in the coming years. ElringKlinger will hold a noncontrolling interest in a newly established company, while the majority stake will be held by Airbus. ElringKlinger will provide the newly established company with access to technology relevant to hydrogen-powered fuel cells while in return receiving compensation in the low to mid-double-digit million euro range. Additionally, ElringKlinger will supply the newly established joint venture company with certain components needed for development activities. Both parties have agreed not to disclose further details on this partnership agreement. This agreement includes 2 key messages from my point of view. First, if aviation is interested in fuel cells, the technology should be even more attractive for other applications as the aeronautic sector places the highest performance requirements that you can think of. Second thing, Airbus conducted an extensive international analysis of the fuel cell stack market prior to the agreement and, as a result, has been convinced of ElringKlinger's best-in-class performance. The decision in favor of ElringKlinger is a quality seal for us, for our company. The high-power density of our stacks and our extensive expertise with regards to industrialization processes proved key differentiators. Also in October, as you probably know, ElringKlinger and Plastic Omnium, the French supplier, agreed to take hydrogen-based fuel cell technology to the next level. Together, we will create EKPO Fuel Cell Technologies, a joint venture dedicated to fuel cell stack development, production and commercialization. EKPO Fuel Cell Technologies will offer its product portfolio to a broad range of customers, including hydrogen systems integrators. ElringKlinger, we, will hold a 60% stake in EKPO Fuel Cell Technologies while the remaining 40% will be owned by Plastic Omnium. ElringKlinger will bring all of its assets related to fuel cell stacks and components. The joint venture will be headquartered here in Dettingen, where ElringKlinger, the mother company, is based and will be fully consolidated in the -- in ElringKlinger's figures. The annual production capacity of initially up to 10,000 units in the joint venture will be progressively extended according to the order book, and we are confident that this number will raise quite a bit. Plastic Omnium will invest EUR 100 million in the new company to support the acceleration of innovation, strongly develop the commercial pipeline and increase production capacities. We also agreed on the divestment of our Austrian subsidiary specialized in the integration of hydrogen systems for an enterprise value of EUR 15 million as from our point of view, it does not make sense to be partner in a joint venture on the one hand and competitors in Fuelcell Systems on the other hand. You have to know that Plastic Omnium is also invested in companies that are dealing with complete fuel cell systems. So Fuelcell Systems now are in the hand of Plastic Omnium. What was the reason for this step from an ElringKlinger perspective? Well, we have gained strong expertise in fuel cell technology over the past 20 years. Our stacks offer a high-power density and have proven their capabilities even under adverse conditions. We knew the next step is to unlock the market potential with a strong partner. Together, we will industrialize the fuel cell technology by extending the manufacturing to a large-scale production in order to realize economies of scale. Both partners share the same values and complement each other perfectly with regard to competencies and the view on the mobility of the future. As a result, the new joint venture, EKPO Fuel Cell Technologies, will accelerate the ecological transition and establish a dedicated industrial and globally competitive sector. With Plastic Omnium as a partner, it will be able to offer integrated solutions covering the entire spectrum of fuel cell propulsion technology. Well, I come now to Slide #6. The partnership with Plastic Omnium will allow EKPO Fuel Cell Technologies to develop then -- to develop further and faster with very high ambition. The 2030 market, backed by increasing government support, is currently estimated at an annual production of between at least 2 million and 3 million on-road vehicles with fuel cell systems. First, it will start to address the commercial vehicle market where it is especially reasonable to integrate fuel cell solutions from a range and cost perspective. Afterwards, it will be covered the passenger car market, which will represent the main market share by 2030. If you look at it by region, the activities will address the Asian fuel cell market in particular, which is most promising, and then will be followed by the European market. By 2030, EKPO Fuel Cell Technologies aim to reach a market share of 10% to 15% in the fuel cell technology business, representing revenues between EUR 700 million and EUR 1 billion. This target includes a global industrial footprint and is based on the ability to already today serially produce fuel cell stacks complying with the automotive standards of today. It is the strong objective of EKPO Fuel Cell Technologies to foster mass market adoptions by reducing the price per kilowatt by 80%, which would be competitive to internal combustion engine prices today. So that is the general remarks from my point of view. And let me hand over now to my colleague on the Board, our CFO, Mr. Thomas Jessulat, for the explanation of the figures of the third quarter 2020. Mr. Jessulat, please go ahead.
Yes. Thank you, Dr. Wolf. Ladies and gentlemen, a warm welcome also from my side. I would like to comment the financial results for the third quarter 2020, starting on Slide #8. The general recovery seen during the past months also had a positive impact on ElringKlinger's orders book. While order intake had slumped by 54% year-on-year in the second quarter of 2020, it exceeded the prior year figure of EUR 438 million in the period from July to September 2020, which is adjusted for currencies, standing at EUR 459 million. This corresponds to growth of 4.8%. Excluding the comparatively strong effect of currency translation however, this period saw a decline of 3.2%, pushing the figure down to EUR 424 million. Based on the assumption of stable exchange rates, the order backlog decreased by 4.5% to EUR 1.021 billion as of September 30, 2020. Factoring in currency movements, order backlog amounted to EUR 972 million, which represents a decline of 9.1%. Group revenues rose substantially during the third quarter on the back of recovering markets, taking the figure to EUR 381 million. Despite this upturn, revenue for the period was still down 11.8% from the prior year figure. In organic terms, group revenue fell by 7.5% in the third quarter. Revenues have been diluted by currency effects quite strongly. However, at minus 4%, the impact of currency translation was even pronounced in the quarter under revenue. M&A activities are to be seen in the context of the Hungarian business park sold in 2019. On Slide #9, group revenue rose substantially compared to the preceding 3 months in all sales regions but overall not compared to their prior year figures. Europe is the region generating the highest revenue with a share of 51% of total sales. Although vehicle production gradually resumed as early as April after some restrictions had been lifted, it took until the third quarter for demand within the European market to pick up again. However, revenue generated from sales in Germany in Q3 2020 was still down 14.4% on the prior year figure. Down by just 5.8%, revenue in the rest of Europe was more in line with that recorded in the same period a year ago. Business in North America was severely impacted in Q2 2020 by lockdown measures. The third quarter saw a strong upturn in demand, as a result of which ElringKlinger managed to generate sales revenue of EUR 102 million. However, this was still 11.9% less than achieved in the same quarter 1 year ago. In Asia Pacific, from where the global market downturn spread during the first quarter of 2020 following the outbreak of COVID-19, group revenue began to trend higher again as early as the second quarter of 2020. Although revenues from the activities of the group's plants in China grew, the Asia Pacific region as a whole still recorded a decline of 12.4% in the third quarter. In the third quarter of 2020, the Original Equipment segment generated revenues of EUR 306 million, which was EUR 47 million or 13.2% less than in the same period a year ago. The various divisions performed among slightly different lines over the course of the third quarter of 2020. While cylinder-head gaskets and specialty gaskets as well as structural lightweighting benefited from a speedier recovery, revenue flows attributable to the Shielding Technology division proved more sluggish compared to the prior year figures. In this context, however, revenues attributable to structural lightweighting proved exceptionally robust. The E-Mobility division, which encompasses the areas of battery and fuel cell technology as well as drivetrain, recorded 19.7% increase in revenue, taking the figure to EUR 5.5 million. On Slide #11, we see the earnings figures for the third quarter. In the third quarter of 2020, earnings performance was improved by the upturn in markets and the overall package of measures discussed above. Tangible savings were achieved, as a result of which ElringKlinger achieved an EBIT of EUR 18.9 million despite the decline in revenues. The EBIT margin was lifted from 4.7% in the same quarter a year ago to 5% in the period under review. At EUR 2.5 million and 0.2%, respectively, EBIT and the EBIT margin for the first 9 months were also in the positive territory. As part of the official COVID-19 aid measures, the group took advantage of tax relief in Germany, including tax-free deferrals. This and the fact that, as in previous periods, no deferred tax assets can be recognized on the losses incurred by some of the foreign companies meant that the tax rate fluctuated sharply over the individual quarters. As a result, net income for the ElringKlinger Group stood at EUR 2.9 million in the third quarter of 2020. In the first 9 months, the net loss was minus EUR 31 million. And after noncontrolling interest, net income attributable to the shareholders of ElringKlinger AG was EUR 3.4 million in the third quarter of 2020. Calculated on this basis, earnings per share attributable to the shareholders of ElringKlinger AG amounted to EUR 0.05 in the third quarter. We now come to Slide #12. As a result of the program introduced throughout the group in 2019 for the purpose of raising efficiency levels, optimization measures implemented at the North American plants in order to improve productivity and cost structures had a positive impact. Furthermore, the group took advantage of adjustment options with regard to HR capacity and cost for the purpose of streamlining its operations in response to waning demand. The lower sales volume compared to prior year's third quarter affected earnings. Parallel to Q2 2020, instruments like the German Kurzarbeit or similar ones in other countries helped to compensate the earnings impact albeit on a lower level. All in all, the coronavirus impact still amounts to roughly EUR 17 million. External factors like tailwind on the raw material side or reimbursement of duties accounted for EUR 3 million. The successfully implemented efficiency program helped to offset the negative effects of the crisis by around EUR 12 million. Let me now turn to Slide #13, showing the performance of our segments. Despite the shortfall in revenues, ElringKlinger managed to improve profitability in the first Original Equipment segment. The EBIT margin recovered from minus 0.1% in the first quarter and minus 21.5% in the second quarter to 1.4% in the third quarter. The Aftermarket segment increased its revenues and earnings despite the difficult economic framework. The third quarter saw revenues increase by 4.5% year-on-year to EUR 47 million. And in regional terms, the gains were attributable mainly to Eastern Europe, the Middle East and the Indian subcontinent. In the third quarter, the Aftermarket segment generated an EBIT margin of 20.2%. The Engineered Plastics segment was also affected by the economic repercussions of the coronavirus pandemic. In the third quarter, demand picked up substantially, driven to some extent by catch-up effects within the automotive sector and regionally in China. The segment generated revenues of EUR 26.8 million in the third quarter of 2020. And despite lower business volumes, the segment succeeded in improving its EBIT margin slightly from 16.4% in the same period a year ago to 17% in the period under review. This was attributable to various measures, including strict cost discipline. Revenue and the earnings contributions of the segment, other, are of subordinate importance, accounting for less than 1% of consolidated revenue. In the third quarter of 2020, the segment result included income of EUR 0.3 million from a sale-and-leaseback transaction. Now we come to Slide #14. Net working capital, which is calculated on the basis of inventories and trade receivables less trade payables, fell yet again from EUR 487 million 12 months ago to now EUR 407 million. Following extensive investments in recent years, ElringKlinger has been able to scale back investment activity significantly since 2019 without foregoing key projects. And therefore, measures that are essential for the group's strategic orientation will continue to be implemented in a targeted manner. At EUR 15.1 million in the third quarter of 2020, outflows for investments in property, plant and equipment and on investment property were much lower than in the same period a year ago. Among other things, these investments were attributable to the installation of a production line for battery systems at the site in Thale. And in addition, expenses were incurred for the final completion of work on the technology center for E-Mobility, which commenced operations in 2020. The CapEx ratio was lower, amounting to 4% in the third quarter of 2020 compared to 5.9% in the third quarter of 2019. In the third quarter, operating free cash flow resulted in a cash inflow of EUR 79 million. Compared with the prior year quarter, this corresponds to an increase of EUR 48 million. And from January to September, ElringKlinger therefore generated substantial operating free cash flow of more than EUR 100 million. Despite the downturn in business, the ElringKlinger Group further improved its solid financial situation over the course of the year while net financial debt was again scaled back. Compared to the figure of EUR 682 million 12 months ago, it was down by EUR 170 million to EUR 512 million as of September 30, 2020. In the same period under review, there were no significant changes in credit terms, not even as a result of influences from the coronavirus pandemic. As of September 30, ElringKlinger complied with all covenants agreed with financial institutions. The group had EUR 153 million in cash and cash equivalents, including short-term time deposit securities and EUR 177 million in open unused credit lines. Therefore, ElringKlinger continues to enjoy a substantial liquidity cushion, as a result of which no shortages are currently expected in the foreseeable future if the consequences of the pandemic turn out to be still manageable. With regard to the current liabilities, out of the EUR 160 million, there are EUR 10 million to be paid back in Q4 2020. And out of the remaining EUR 150 million, around EUR 100 million will be redeemed in 2021, and the remaining sum will be refinanced next year. Having said this, I now turn back to Dr. Wolf.
Well, thank you very much, Mr. Jessulat, for your remarks. Let's turn now to Slide #17 of our presentation that you have in front of you with a look on the markets for the rest of the current year. Of course, the coronavirus pandemic has maintained its grip on the world. The first 2 quarters were marked by the spread of the virus, first in Asia, especially in China, and then in Europe as well as North and South America. While an improvement in the pandemic's trajectory during the summer may have pointed to a clear and steady trend for the rest of the year, fall has seen now higher rates of infection and the second wave of the pandemic in Europe and North America is particular -- in particular, as a result of which the fourth quarter of 2020 is likely to be influenced by significant uncertainties. Currently, many states have again stepped up their protective measures and, in some cases, restricted economic activities while making every effort to avoid complete lockdown, similar to those seen during the spring. Regionally, stricter measures, including temporary closures, cannot be ruled out currently. The repercussion of such measures will also be felt throughout the car market. Against this backdrop, it is indeed possible that recovery may be interrupted in the months to come. Therefore, it is hard to predict how the year 2020 will close with regards to the activities on global auto markets. It depends on whether the recovery will continue during the fourth quarter 2020. And overall, we currently expect a decline of 18% for the full year, building on the projections of the industry institute, IHS. Given the uncertainties I have just outlined, it is still not possible to make a sufficiently reliable estimate of development in the fourth quarter and thus the remainder of the year. As regards financial year 2020 as a whole, we still anticipate that the change in revenue in organic terms will be slightly better than the figure relating to global automobile production, which is expected to change by around minus 18%, as I mentioned before. In terms of earnings, we are still anticipating an EBIT margin that is lower than in the previous year. This does not include potential compensation in the low to mid-double-digit million euro range from the strategic partnership with Airbus. This agreement is scheduled to be closed in the course of this year. We also continue to assume that in 2020, the return on total capital employed will be lower than in the previous year. Last but not least -- and now I'm referring to Slide #19. You see that our expectations regarding the further indicators have not changed since our last reporting in August 2020. Despite the challenging factors currently driving the business environment in which ElringKlinger operates, we consider ourselves to be well positioned in the medium to long term. ElringKlinger was quick off the market in its efforts to embrace the transition towards e-mobility with components engineered specifically for battery and fuel cell systems. Overall, therefore, we can confirm the medium-term outlook. However, the exceptional consequences of the coronavirus pandemic still have to be taken into account if they intensify especially in the reporting periods that are approaching. Ladies and gentlemen, these were the remarks and explanations to our result of the third quarter, also for the first 9 months of the fiscal year 2020 and, of course, an outlook for the full year. We are -- now highly appreciate your questions. Please go ahead. Mr. Jessulat and myself are going to answer your questions, and we hope for an interesting discussion. So go ahead.
[Operator Instructions] We'll now take our first question from Jürgen Pieper.
It's Jürgen Pieper from Metzler. On -- concerning your long-term view on your fuel cell activities, you mentioned this EUR 700 million to EUR 1 billion figure. What kind of organic growth can you realize? Or where would you stand with pure organic growth, let's say, in 2025 and then in 2030? And up to which level could you acquire a company or several companies in order to go there -- to get there?
Well, the EUR 700 million to EUR 1 billion, that is, of course, organic growth. Those are projects that we have in hand already. And also, of course, estimations for additional projects that we are working on that we see. How much we achieve out of those EUR 700 million to EUR 1 billion until 2025, that would be a guess today. So that's hard to predict. But we see a strong -- I think that is the important thing. We see a strong demand and a strong interest in fuel cell technology. And we have a lot of projects already on hand, and we get additional projects. So I would leave it with the EUR 700 million to EUR 1 billion in 2030. And that is, of course, based on projects that we have on hand. The important thing is that the interest in fuel cells is increasing tremendously. And that most of the people in the automotive market are, in the meanwhile, pretty clear with regard to technologies that they are open for different technologies and that we do not only concentrate on battery electric applications, but that also a lot of people believe in fuel cell electrical applications, and that is where we have a great benefit from.
[Operator Instructions] We'll now take our next question from Christoph Laskawi of Deutsche Bank.
The first one will be on the top line in Q3. It came in a bit weaker than I expected. I just wanted to get a bit of a clarification from you. Have there been any end of productions that have been phasing in earlier than expected? Was it just regional mix with Germany which worked against you and also the high base in North America? Or any special items that we might need to consider for the third quarter?
No, there is no special item to be considered, in my opinion. This is pure product mix and demand pattern. I don't see anything here that is having some sort of structural fault.
The second question would be on free cash flow and working capital. You had quite a substantial cash generation in Q3, also thanks to working capital build. Do you expect that to reverse a bit in Q4 on the back of the current trading levels that you see? Or would you expect Q4 cash flow to be -- and positive again and also quite good with working capital inflow as you can currently judge it?
My expectation would be that we still see a positive free cash flow in the fourth quarter. What we see now, what we have seen to some extent is the buildup of the accounts receivable, and that position is being compensated from the reduction in inventory to a large extent. The -- from a seasonality, accounts receivable typically in the fourth quarter are going to be reduced towards the end of the year, and we receive a lot of payments in regard to that. So when I look at the structural point of EBITDA versus CapEx that I would expect on the one side and from the development and our activity in terms of working capital management that I see, so Q4 positive free cash flow.
And last question from my end will be on current trading. I think you indicated that October was quite good. We hear from a lot of other suppliers November is quite decent in terms of volumes as well, also in Europe. The big uncertainty would be December, and visibility for that month is still currently quite low. Are there any discussions that you have with the OEMs currently that are rethinking their production plans for the fourth quarter on the back of the rising COVID cases and also the timing restrictions? Or is all quite nicely moving ahead? And following the statement that we get a bit earlier from OEMs that their order book is sold for Q4 and they don't expect much disruption to come.
Our pipeline is filled nicely and good. We are happy with what we have in our books right now. But of course, you never know what happens. I heard from the one or the other OEMs that they are thinking about closing earlier in December, but that is only rumors. So that is not confirmed. If I look at our pipeline, we are on track.
We'll now take our next question from Michael Punzet of Deutsche Central Bank.
Michael Punzet, DZ Bank. I have 3 questions. The first one is on the capitalized R&D. Could you give us a figure what amount you have capitalized for Q3? Second one is on your financial result. Could you give us a figure for the currency impact which is included in the financial result? And lastly, on the cooperation with Airbus, you mentioned that you will get a compensation payment. Is it that you will receive only one payment booked when the deal is closed? Or is that like milestone payments that we could see this amount in several tranches?
Well, let me start with the last question. It is one payment, and we expect closing in 2020. And then of course, this is a partnership that might have additional agreements in the future. This is a long-lasting partnership, and this is something that is not static but dynamic. But now, first of all, we have to close it and that is going to happen in 2020.
Okay. On the...
Maybe a follow-up...
Yes?
Maybe a follow-up. Does that mean the amount you mentioned with press release is linked to the closing? There could be additional payments in the running time of the corporation.
That's always possible.
Okay.
On your question in regard to R&D expenses, we have in the P&L, EUR 13.6 million, which makes 3.6% of sales. And we capitalized EUR 2 million, which makes it 4% overall in a sort of gross amount, 4% of sales in total.
We'll now take our next question from Akshat Kacker of JPMorgan.
Three questions from my side. The first one, on Slide 6, the market potential for fuel cell stacks. I'm looking at a lot of potential in terms of volumes that you mentioned come from passenger cars, also comes from Asia. Is it possible to share some examples of OEMs you are currently in discussion with? Because from where we see things, we can hear Toyota, Honda, Hyundai and -- either all of these OEMs are doing fuel cell stacks in-house or have different partnerships. And when I look at trucks, Volvo, Daimler bring their own stacks, Traton has a partnership with Hino, and even PACCAR is doing it with Toyota. So I'm just trying to understand what am I missing here. So some flavor there would be helpful. The second one is on asset sale and leaseback. There was a EUR 17 million disposal in the quarter. Just interested in understanding if there is scope for more transactions like this in the future.And the third one is again on working capital. Obviously, you have done a good job on inventories. How do you expect this to trend into Q4, please?
Let me start with the first question. We have quite a lot of projects in the fuel cell business, but the customers are here very sensitive. So we are not able to disclose detailed information. And one thing you have to see, of course, there are a lot of OEMs that want to produce their future stack by themselves, but they need components. And we are open to supply components. We are open to supply modules, and we are open to supply complete systems. That's the big advantage to ElringKlinger. And we have, as I mentioned, around about 25 projects in Asia and starting now with projects also here in Europe. So we are quite confident that we will get a remarkable part and share of this market.
Okay. On your second question in regard to the sale and leaseback, the transactions that we have done so far were part of the accelerated program in order to reduce the debt levels of ElringKlinger. I cannot exclude as of today if we would do more of that type of transactions. But so far, there is nothing planned significantly in the short period to come. And on the working capital side, what I see right now from a trending perspective is still lower inventory levels going forward towards December, yes? So this is in line with what I said before that I would expect also a positive impact in Q4 coming out of our working capital management. And again, from a trending perspective, inventories should come down.
[Operator Instructions] We'll now take our next question from Johannes Ries of Apus Capital.
This is Johannes Ries. Also a couple of questions to the joint venture. First, maybe can you give us a feeling how long you needed to reduce maybe the cost of a fuel cell system by 5x? Is it something you could achieve in the next 3, 4, 5 years? Or is it a target to the end of the decade?
Well, we are looking -- we want to reduce the cost within the next 5 years to be here competitive for the combustion engine.
Okay. Super. And I wanted -- do you have a feeling how much of this EUR 700 million to EUR 1 billion will come from light vehicles and how much more from trucks and buses roughly? Half-half or...
Yes. That's pretty hard to predict. But I would say if you look on Page #6 -- in our Slide #6, you see that -- you see the split.
Yes. But I think systems for a truck. So it's more [ valuable ]. What is the average system price for light vehicle and for truck or bus?
That's...
[indiscernible]
Yes?
Maybe if you reduce it by 5x in the future. I mean...
Yes. Well, today, it's the same, yes? But today, we produce that in very small quantities. So the prices are pretty, pretty high. I would say there's not that much difference in the future between those 2 systems.
Okay. And given these 2 million to 3 million units are expected, what market share you have maybe based on your calculation? Is it 15%, 20% for the joint venture? Or I mean...
Well, we mentioned before 10% to 15%. That was mentioned in the...
Okay. You said it in the press conference. I remember now. You also mentioned in the press conference that you are targeting not only the car and truck segments and also the train segment. Is that already included in the EUR 700 million to EUR 1 billion? Do you already have projects there? Or is it something which comes on top?
No, it's included.
Included. Okay.
Yes.
What about -- you have Airbus for airplanes. You have the joint venture for the train and the car business. What about ships? I know that other [indiscernible] for Asia is also looking to enter this market. So it could also be an attractive for future -- in the future. Is it also a target market for you, will be also served by same joint venture? Or is it you're looking for a third partner for the ship business?
No, no, no. That is part of the EKPO Fuel Cell Technologies joint venture.
Okay. Any idea -- could be the margin in such business above the average in the future or...
Yes, of course. That, we expect.
Okay. And any feedback after you announced this joint venture from the customers? I think most of -- a lot of large customers have already been informed. But you already feel maybe that you get even more maybe interest and more -- interest to talk about new projects after the announcement of the joint venture? Or was it already known in the industry before?
No. Of course, it was not known in the industry. And we have a good feedback, a very good feedback.
Okay. Therefore, you mentioned you have already 100 projects with 80 customers. So it's definitely not the answer when [indiscernible]
Once again, please. I didn't get that.
No. You mentioned during the press conference, you have 100 projects with 80 customers already in the fuel cell business. And -- but it's definitely not a -- it's not the answer. It will definitely come new projects on top of this and -- that are not -- these projects are not -- if I got you right, [ will further ] a question to a colleague from -- get a question from a colleague. In the EUR 700 million to EUR 1 billion, only the projects you are -- have already on hand or you're discussing with customers. But the new things which are coming is on top now?
Well, of course, we will get additional projects. We are open for that, pretty clear.
But it's not in this target figure, the EUR 700 million to EUR 1 billion. So it's on top.
Well, there are also estimations in there, of course.
Okay, okay. Is it still the case that your traditional business you expect, like you see in the corporate presentation, stays flat? Or how much we could expect to -- it shrink to 2030 only to see what is the net effect in the end?
Well, of course, we see our traditional business also growing. 3
Growing, okay.
Then [ it's natural ], 2030, that's hard to estimate today, but it's growing. Of course, it's growing.
Okay. So shield business, for example, yes?
What?
The shielding business, for example, is growing, yes?
Shielding, yes.
And what about these other things you're delivering to electromobility? These 2 areas you have there, how strong they could grow in the next years?
Well, we see also a growth, of course, in the battery business, yes. To say a percentage now is pretty hard. But of course, we have projects here, cell connector systems, complete battery systems.
You see also a stronger uptick next year? We heard from -- other automobile suppliers, especially from the semi guys, said the curve of increase is really speeding up for electromobility in the next year. Do you also see that your projects are getting more dynamic in the next year in this field?
Yes, we see that, pretty clear.
We'll now take our last question from Frank Biller of LBBW.
It's just minor -- I have quick questions here. One, again on electromobility, you said revenue is EUR 5.5 million here. Was there a loss? Or was it a breakeven? Maybe you can give here a small figure for that. Then more on a strategic point, CapEx ratio about -- below 5% expected for 2020. What do you mean with disciplined approach? Will you stay below 5% or that will come to -- more to the 6% level? And the last question about your equity. Equity shrank by about EUR 4 million. It's other reserves here which came down a bit. Maybe you can give us a bit of an explanation for that.
Yes. On the E-Mobility, overall, of course, we are in a loss-making situation. We are in the industrial cycle to set up fuel cell business, the battery business and also the EDU business, and that is currently loss-making -- in a loss-making situation. It goes through this start-up curve. On the CapEx side, my expectation for next year will be that we stay below EUR 100 million. It's going to be not the same amount that we have -- that we will have seen for this year. My expectation is it would be higher. So overall, it would be, roughly speaking, between EUR 50 million and EUR 100 million, a little bit on the higher side from today's expectation. On the equity, we have 2 effects, essentially. The one is a net income effect. And the other one is in effect coming out of currency effects because we have -- from a translational perspective, we have some factories in countries where we have seen the currency depreciating against the euro significantly. I'll name a couple of examples, Brazil, Mexico, Turkey. And also, the dollar has made some movement, shown some volatility, of course. But the structural impact of that currency translation, of course, that goes into equity, and that is the amount or the effect that you're looking for essentially. But it's half and half.
Okay. And in the financial result, was there a net loss from -- coming from ForEx in the third quarter?
Yes. If I walk you through the financial results, then we have, in the third quarter here, interest expense is EUR 5 million; foreign exchange, minus EUR 2.8 million; and then from the affiliates here is minus EUR 2 million. And if you take all those 3 together, then we're ending up with a financial result of minus EUR 9.8 million, yes?
[Operator Instructions] There are no further questions at this time. I would like to turn the conference back over to the speakers for any additional or closing remarks.
Yes. Thank you very much. Thank you for attending our conference today. And so we see each other again or hear each other again when we present our full year results next year. You'll get the invitation in advance. And thank you for your attention. We highly appreciate that. I wish you a good day, and stay healthy. Thank you very much. Bye-bye.
Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes today's call. Thank you for your participation. You may now disconnect.