New Work SE

XETRA:NWO

Earnings Call Transcript 2022-Q1

[Operator]

Very good afternoon, everyone. On behalf of Montega, welcome to the New Work SE earnings call regarding the Q1 results of 2022. Thank you very much for your interest in dialing in. You will now hear a presentation on the respective figures by the CEO, Petra von Strombeck; and the CFO, Ingo Chu. [Operator Instructions] Having said that, I will hand over the floor to you.

[Petra Von Strombeck, executive]

Thank you. Welcome, everybody, to our Q1 results update. Thank you for your interest, and thank you for joining us today. As always, Ingo is sitting next to me. He will guide you through the financials in a minute.

Let me start by saying that I'm fairly happy with the first 3 months of the year. But obviously, our thoughts are with the people affected by the war. We have many initiatives within our company, and I'm very proud of our colleagues who have joined forces and organized shelters or brought urgently needed goods to the Polish border since the outbreak of the war. They show empathy and support while delivering great results, as you will see.

When we look back to the outbreak of COVID, many companies were forced at the time to stop hiring overnight, with individual sectors such as hotels and catering halting their hiring activities completely during the first lockdown. The Ukraine war is different. On the one hand, we're witnessing a dramatic humanitarian catastrophe. On the other hand, we have seen very little impact on the labor market these days.

The so-called DACH Index, which is an indicator of demand for labor, is at a record high with 135 points. That's above pre-pandemic levels, and it makes it quite clear that labor shortage or labor scarcity is more present than ever. And we continue to see growth rates speed up quarter-over-quarter, thanks to this overall recovery and underlying trends. So let's start with the summary of financial KPIs.

They showed growth and our nonfinancial KPIs performed nicely, too. We expanded the region visibility of our core C destinations, XING and kununu. The B side of our business is delivering a very nice performance, with customer and revenue growth accelerating again.

Let me do a quick deep dive into 3 core financial KPIs. As you can see, revenue, EBITDA and net income are up. Our pro forma revenue grew by 12%. That's slightly better than we anticipated. But please bear in mind that Q1 last year was the weakest quarter last year, with a 1% revenue decline.

Our pro forma EBITDA grew by 3%. A quick note here, pro forma means reported, so there are no deviations or adjustments this time around. Our comparison with the previous year's quarter is yet somewhat disputed. Unlike usual, we choose not to run a brand campaign last year. This quarter, we continued our very successful Mach Dein XING, Do Your XING campaign after launching the new app at the end of last year. And pro forma net income is up by 3%. There are only minor deviations versus reported figures, which Ingo will cover later.

So how about operating performance last quarter? As you know, we have 2 important C destinations under our New Work groups, XING and kununu. Both destinations help us win talents in the DACH market, which is important when it comes to monetizing the talent access we are building on going forward.

Let's start with XING, the #1 professional network in the DACH region. We now have 20.7 million white-collar professionals as ouw members, up 1.4 million versus last year and plus 350,000 in Q1 alone.

You remember that we are in the process of reinventing ourselves by focusing less on providing the social media website for individuals, that's about getting eyeballs and traffic to your personal profile, but rather about building a companion that guides you during your whole professional life, while helping you make more educated decisions, such as the changing of employers or negotiating salary.

In a nutshell, we want to cater even more to the needs of our members, no matter what they want, no matter where they are in their lives. Our users need guidance for a world of work that's becoming increasingly fragmented. That's what they tell us, that is what they need, and that's where we can deliver. The app we launched last December was just the beginning of this journey, and we have a clear road map as what needs to come next.

During Q1, we also rolled out the new architecture in desktop and small screen. We introduced new search filters for jobs and significantly improved in the identification of fake profiles. We'll keep you updated on this journey of repositioning XING.

Moving to kununu. kununu continues to develop strongly and is by far the leading destination for employee insights. In total, users added 34% more highly valuable employer ratings, cultural insights and salary data points compared to last year. The employment market has changed over the past few years, and employees are in a much stronger position these days, which is great.

Salary is still a factor, of course, but not the most important one. According to our data, people primarily look for a new job because they want a more fulfilling workday, where they can also better contribute with their skills. Remember, in our last update in February, we talked about our strategy for that, showing the willingness to change job has increased dramatically in the DACH region. More and more employees are questioning their work situation and scrutinizing their employer to decide if they are still a good cultural fit for them.

Our study has just recently been confirmed by the Gallup engagement index. For the first time, willingness of employees to change jobs in Germany is even higher than in the United States, where a huge wave of layoffs is rolling through the country, it has been called the Great Resignation, and is now actually called the Great Reshuffling.

This is why kununu is so important to our future strategy and success. We deliver transparency to the working population. This is real value nobody else out there delivers in depth, which is why kununu as one of our core investment areas this year and we'll continue to monetize kununu on the B side by selling employee brand-new profiles to corporates, which brings me to our key growth driver, B2B E-Recruiting, which accounts for 63% of our revenues today and has returned to growth rates of more than 20% in Q1, 26% to be precise.

With the onset of the pandemic for the first time ever, our B2B customer growth stopped and even declined slightly throughout 2020, only started gradually recovering in the beginning of last year. Since the end of last year though, we've seen pretty solid uptake in new corporate clients, very much in line with the general market recovery.

With the easing of the pandemic, most employers are back to normal, meaning we are faced with the structural hiring challenges I described earlier. Our position as the leading player when it comes to talent access helped us to convert almost 270 net new B2B subscription customers during the first quarter. In Q4 last year, we added 220 net new customers. That's 70% of accumulated customer growth for last year in total. But there is more good news.

First of all, we're experiencing an ongoing recovery of our job ads as well as bundled business that includes 360 of around 40% year-over-year. Second, we managed to increase upward existing B2B E-Recruiting customers by around 17% year-over-year. And last but not least, Honeypot, the reverse marketplace for software developers we acquired back in 2019, has successfully pivoted its monetization model, from a transactional to a subscription-based model.

In Q1, revenues were up close to 200% versus first quarter last year. This quarter's growth of 26% puts us well on track to achieve our group top line ambition of high single-digit growth. Again, please remember, last year's proxy was the weakest growth in our history. In a realistic scenario, our growth rate will decline slightly over the current quarters due to the higher starting point from Q2 to Q4 last year.

When that works in a realistic scenario, we can expect slightly declining growth rates over the coming quarter. But again, we expect high single-digit top line growth.

That's it for me. And with that, I hand over to Ingo.

[Ingo Chu, executive]

Thank you, Petra. Hello, everybody. This is Ingo, and I'm going to talk to you about our Q1 numbers in more detail. Overall, we are well on track in executing our new refocused strategy.

Let's start with a look at our key message points. Number one, our talent access through our C-side brands, XING and kununu, continues to grow. That is good because that's the basis for our monetization in E-Recruiting. Number two, revenues came in at EUR 75.9 million and a 12% year-over-year growth. Number three, EBITDA came in at EUR 25.5 million. Number four, operating cash flow came in at EUR 38.8 million. And number five, we confirm our guidance for this year of EUR 104 million in pro forma EBITDA.

I'll give you more details on the following charts. Let's start with our P&L. Revenues amount to EUR 75.9 million. As I've said, that's up 12% year-over-year. And with that, in Q1, we have come back to double-digit growth on a group level, which is good. However, please keep in mind that Q1 last year, we did not grow due to COVID. So comps are easy. Over the course of the year, 2021, we had reaccelerated our revenue growth. So over the course of this year, comps will become more difficult.

At this point in time, we stick to our full year revenue growth, accelerating from 5% in 2021, to the very high single digits in 2022. Reported EBITDA amounts to EUR 25.5 million. That's slightly up year-over-year. Reported EBITDA margin is 34%. And pro forma EBITDA equals reported EBITDA.

Now compared to last year, margin came down from 37% to 34% this year. You will remember that, last year, especially in the first half of the year, our margins were abnormally high because of 3 reasons. Number one, we were in the intermediate phase after reducing our cost base through our COVID restructuring measures, on the one hand, and starting again to invest into growth on the other hand.

Number two, we had a different cost seasonality, especially with regard to our marketing spendings. And number three, last year, we were in lockdown, which also reduced our overall cost.

As announced, margins are coming now back to the normal level in investment mode, which is in the low 30s. Depreciation amounts to minus EUR 7.7 million. That's slightly up year-over-year. However, there is no special driver behind that. Reported financial results came in at minus EUR 1 million. That's down year-over-year. This year, in Q1, we had a book loss from revaluation of financial assets from our cash reserves.

As you know, we invest our excess cash in low-risk asset classes. And last year in Q1, we had a book gain of plus EUR 0.1 million from the revaluation of financial assets. Now if you take out these effects, pro forma financial result would amount to minus EUR 0.3 million this year comparing to minus EUR 0.2 million last year. As you know, this is mainly accounting only noncash cost for discounting these payments according to IFRS.

Reported net income came in at EUR 11.9 million. That's down year-over-year because of our financial result. The pro forma net income came in at EUR 12.4 million, which is slightly up year-over-year.

Now if we look at the profitability by business line, if we look at B2C, in Q1, the B2C segment contributed EUR 8.2 million in segment EBITDA. That is down year-over-year, and margin is down as well. This development reflects our investments in building the talent side with our brands, XING and kununu.

The B2B E-Recruiting segment contributed EUR 33.4 million to profitability. That's up year-on-year. Margin is slightly down, given that we are investing especially in the go-to-market in that field. The B2B Marketing Solutions & Events segment contributed EUR 2.3 million to profitability, slightly down year-on-year.

If you look at the revenue development, B2C revenues came in at EUR 23.1 million, which is down 7% year-over-year and came in as planned. The key driver behind this development is direct B2C monetization at XING.

As you know, a booming labor market reduces the incentive to sell up to premium. And also, with our refocused strategy, we concentrate on building our access to talent fixing. Short-term direct B2C monetization is less of a focus because we monetize our talent access through E-Recruiting on the B side.

Now let's have a look at our E-Recruiting revenue development. B2B E-Recruiting revenues came in at EUR 47.9 million, which is up 26% year-over-year. We're very happy that we are again accelerating our growth rates in our most important growth business. However, please do remember that comps in Q1 last year were easy. Finally, if we look at B2B Marketing Solutions & Events, revenues amount to EUR 5 million, which is slightly down.

If you look at costs, here you can see reported figures in Q1. Personnel costs before capitalization came in at EUR 36.6 million. That's an equivalent of 48% of revenues. That is slightly up year-on-year. As you know, we are ramping up our investments into growth, and we are hiring, in particular, on the go-to-market side and for our growth capabilities.

If we look at marketing. In Q1, overall marketing costs came in at EUR 10.3 million. That's 14% of revenues. That's significantly up year-over-year. Here you can see very clearly our different cost seasonality this year versus 2021. Last year, we did not do our marketing campaign in Q1 because we timed it together with the XING relaunch, which we did in the second half of the year. That alone explains the 3 percentage points and lower margin.

The last cost line, other operating expenses. We all know it includes, as usual, external services, legal, audit, consulting, payment processing, server hosting and other costs. In Q1, other operating expenses before capitalization amount to EUR 9.9 million or 13% of revenues. This is up year-over-year.

Unlike last year, this year, in Q1, we were not at lockdown. And as a consequence, we are somewhat back to normal spendings, with, for example, yearly kickoffs, travel and entertainment coming back, et cetera.

Now if we look at cash flows, operating cash flows, excluding organizer cash, amount to EUR 38.8 million. That's slightly down year-over-year driven mainly by high tax cashouts. Cashout for operating investments amount to minus EUR 8.1 million. That's down year-over-year. You will remember that, last year, we had extraordinarily high CapEx in connection with the move into our new headquarter.

Cash-outs for interest paid, foreign exchange and especially rent, amount to plus EUR 0.5 million. This includes a cash-in from lease incentive of plus EUR 2.8 million. If you exclude this onetime positive impact, this cash flow line would amount to minus EUR 2.3 million and this is mainly lease cash-outs. With that, free cash flow before dividends, before organizer cash, amounts to EUR 30.8 million.

Now to sum it up for Q1. In Q1, we've grown revenues 12% year-over-year driven by E-Recruiting. E-Recruiting is our growth driver going forward and continues to accelerate in growth. However, comps will become more difficult over time. EBITDA is in line with our margin targets, and the investment model reflects the different cost seasonality this year versus last year. And we confirm our guidance of a pro forma EBITDA of EUR 104 million.

That's it for the numbers, and we are now happy to take your questions.

[Operator]

[Operator Instructions] We will start with a question from Marius Fuhrberg.

[Marius Fuhrberg, analyst]

The first question from my side would be with regard to the cost level. You had mentioned that this cost level remains your normal expense level. So should we expect the cost level to remain at this level for the coming quarters as well?

And the second question will be with regards to the B2C business. Do you -- well, how strong would you expect the decline in revenues over the next quarters? And from your perspective, what would you think of a, yes, basis for the B2C business, where we should expect no more declining revenues from?

[Petra Von Strombeck, executive]

And just to get to your first part of the question, to be honest, it was something about the cost levels in Q1, but I didn't fully get it, to be honest. Could you eventually repeat your first question, please?

[Marius Fuhrberg, analyst]

Yes. Of course. It was about the cost level. As you mentioned, that you're currently in a more normalized world again, with regard to your costs. So basically, the question is just should we expect the current cost level of Q1 to continue in the next quarters?

[Ingo Chu, executive]

Okay. Well, I can take both questions. So if you look at our margins on a full year basis, it would be on a low and would be in the low 30s as long as we are in investment mode and which is what we are planning for this year. And so in terms of margins, depending on our spending pattern, it might decrease a little bit, but we will stay above 30%.

And when it comes to B2C, given that we focus on monetization on the recruiting side, and that on the C-side, it is not a direct monetization on the C-side, but rather increasing access to talent, which is important for us. In the short term, you can assume, for the next quarters, about the same revenue development, order of magnitude, as we saw in Q1.

[Marius Fuhrberg, analyst]

Okay. And any idea of where the strong basis would be for B2C?

[Ingo Chu, executive]

And what do you mean...

[Marius Fuhrberg, analyst]

Or more long-run perspective, I would say.

[Ingo Chu, executive]

You mean our direct B2C monetization?

[Marius Fuhrberg, analyst]

Yes. Exactly.

[Ingo Chu, executive]

Well, I mean, short term, we're living with the situation as they are. Long term, of course, we will look again whether we can stop the trend or actually grow B2C revenues again, but I wouldn't put that in your models yet.

[Petra Von Strombeck, executive]

It's actually always a trade-off decision. Do we invest capacity in the network development and features for the whole network to make sure we have the best talent access? Or do we invest for a smaller group in premium features? And actually, for the time being, our decision is very clear, that we do invest in talent access and best talent performance for all talents rather than just premium customers. So expect the trend to continue until we decide differently.

[Ingo Chu, executive]

Yes. Exactly. I mean from a group strategic perspective, I mean, if you come back to our winning aspiration, which is become the #1 recruiting partner in DACH by winning talents, and the recruiting partner part is on the B2B E-Recruiting side and winning talents is on the C-side. That's why, on the C-side, it is much more important from a switching point of view to maximize talent access.

[Petra Von Strombeck, executive]

As you can see in the results of the first quarter, this works out as a strategy.

[Ingo Chu, executive]

Yes. Also, if you look at the growth in the past 8 years, if you look at where the absolute revenue growth came from, in distribution, you will see the majority of the growth came from E-Recruiting and not from B2C. It's also the experience of the past.

[Marius Fuhrberg, analyst]

I definitely support this strategy. So I was just wondering how do you think of B2C in the long run. But that's very clear.

[Operator]

We are now taking the questions from Fathima Naizer.

[Fathima-Nizla Naizer, analyst]

I hope you could hear me okay.

[Operator]

Yes.

[Petra Von Strombeck, executive]

Yes, we can.

[Fathima-Nizla Naizer, analyst]

A couple of questions from my end. Firstly, the current conversation that we get from a lot of our investors, the fears around the macro environment as well, so I'm curious to understand if you're seeing any impact to HR budgets from your end. Is that a conversation that you're having with corporates, also sort of a tightening there, that builds in this environment? Or is it still robust? And how do you intend to sort of deal with this?

Secondly, on the new XING app launch, could you tell us a bit more about engagement levels? Is it going according to plan? Clearly, the positioning is now different to LinkedIn. So what is sort of the gap between XING and the number of members and LinkedIn and the number of members? Some analysis there would be great.

And lastly, when it comes to B2B E-Recruiting, are your XTM customers happy with the response levels that they still get when they reach out to employees -- potential employees rather on XING on the B2C side? Just to see how that satisfaction level has also progressed. Some color there would be great.

[Petra Von Strombeck, executive]

Of course, happy to answer your questions. So first of all, how do we look at the economic environment? And do we see that HR departments are tightening their budget? Actually, the contrary is true. We see a booming HR recruiting business all over the place, and there seems to be no influence that we can see so far of the Ukrainian war. So there is no impact in the labor market. For the time being, it seems detached in its development from the crisis.

Actually, my personal reading, and that's just a judgment, is that somehow throughout the COVID crisis, a lot of HR departments had rather reduced staff. And now, when they came out of the COVID crisis, found out that it's super difficult to recruit people, and that actually limits their growth. So I think they are hesitant to actually adjust their HR budgets because the demand is still very high in the market. So, so far, we see a very robust HR recruiting market. I hope that answers your first question.

When we compare XING to LinkedIn and look at the members, to my last knowledge, LinkedIn has just announced 18 million members. And we announced 20.7 million at the end of Q1. So basically, what you can see is that we keep our distance to LinkedIn, as always. And so we stick to the same, more or less, same speed of development as far as members are concerned.

Looking at activity and engagement and also your question concerning the response rates to the XTM, obviously, turning XING into a more job-oriented platform means that we are not necessarily hunting for eyeballs, multiple daily usage, et cetera. So we are more looking at delivering to our customer the perfect job experience and guidance he needs in the job market.

So if we look at the XTM and how satisfied our customers are, I think we told you in the last call already that we did a benchmark study in the beginning of the year, where both staffing agencies and HR customers both declared that they are more satisfied hiring via XING than they are via LinkedIn because they are more successful in filling their positions. That's the -- I mean, that's the benchmark study from the beginning of the year we have.

What we think happens in the market though, is that the response rates, nevertheless, overall are slightly down just because there is so much demand out there that candidates get a multiple of questions and responses and e-mails from recruiters. And this is why the response rates are on a market trend down. Nevertheless, XING's performance is perceived by our customers to be better than LinkedIn. I hope that answers your question.

[Operator]

We continue with the questions from [ Lukas Schpange ].

[Unknown Analyst]

[ Lukas Schpange, Tippes Capital ]. Maybe we can get a little bit deeper in the geopolitical uncertainties because I think the probability for a recession is becoming more realistic. So in a general perspective, what would you expect in terms of revenue development or development in general for your several segments in a recession scenario?

[Petra Von Strombeck, executive]

Actually, I mean, it's pretty difficult to predict how exactly and when there might be effects. But please bear in mind when judging about future business, the geographic trend is the overarching trend and the relevance to be able to recruit talent nevertheless in a declining -- in a market where the workforce and the number of people being part of that workforce is actually declining will be a constraint for all industries. So recruiting stays a very relevant market. That's the first part.

And then the second part, that's something we have seen during the COVID crisis already. Due to our subscription model, we usually don't see any abrupt reactions of our top line of business, but rather it is smoothened by the fact that we run a 1-year subscription contract. So our business is very resilient.

[Ingo Chu, executive]

Yes. Let me -- to the macro discussion, let me add some figures there. So you have about 44 million people working in the German labor market. And just due to demographics, we will lose 4 million to 5 million out of that 44 million until 2030, okay? And that's basically inevitable, right? That is large cohorts, the baby-boomer generation retiring and only small cohorts entering the labor market.

And so on a net basis, we're losing about 10%, maybe even more, out of the workforce on the supply side and the labor market. And so then the question is, I mean, all the macro parts you were talking about is basically working on the demand side. And there has to be a very, very strong decrease in demand to actually counter the inevitable demographics effect on the supply side.

The second one is, and Petra talked to that, about it, that's not necessarily an item in the sense of number of people working, but it's the number of people changing jobs, right? We talked about the reshuffling.

After COVID, you've seen that loyalty to institution has come down, the Great Resignation, the Great Reshuffling. People are actually changing their jobs more often. That means if, on average, let's say, the duration for an employee working in a company is 5 years and is coming down to 4 years, that means actually the number of positions you have to fill in a given year, it goes up 20%, 25%. And that's even independent of demographics. It's open whether this is a temporary effect only, but it's definitely working now.

It's also kind of independent, it's kind of independent because it's kind of the [Foreign Language] in the labor market. So that's why we are -- there is reasons for decoupling of what happens in the labor market, which drives the demand for our recruiting solutions on the one hand and what you see on the macro side in general.

[Unknown Analyst]

Okay. And then on your smallest segment, the B2B Marketing Solutions & Events, for your full year -- in the full year report, you guided for double-digit growth. So is this still the plan? And what do you expect in the segment on -- in the coming quarters because we now saw a little decline? I know it's also because of the restrictions we saw still in Q1. So what can we expect in this segment in the coming quarters?

[Ingo Chu, executive]

Well, it's still open. I mean it's a small segment. So whether it does double digit or whether it does high single digit doesn't really make a huge difference on...

[Petra Von Strombeck, executive]

[ And on ] revenue...

[Ingo Chu, executive]

Yes, on group level or not, it is a -- it's kind of open. But I mean, the B2B Marketing Solutions & Events segment are a transactional business. So they can fluctuate a little bit more. And Events definitely is depending on being open off-line, which currently is getting better. The signs are getting there. And it's difficult to say, but I don't -- so we're not yet in a position or not yet somewhere where we say we would take that down. But even if that happened, it doesn't believe or -- it doesn't impact our overall group outlook.

[Unknown Analyst]

Yes. Okay. And then on B2B solutions, it's the same guidance. So would it be possible that you narrow or be more precise in the coming quarters if you have a better visibility of where you could end up in terms of double-digit growth?

[Ingo Chu, executive]

Maybe in the coming quarters, yes.

[Operator]

We are now taking the questions from [ Simon Bentlager ].

[Unknown Analyst]

Yes, one question from me. It's about the B2B segment. I'm just wondering if you could give a little bit more color on what exactly has been driving the strong growth in this segment, particularly, yes, speaking about kununu, but also Active Recruiting.

And I remember that, last year, I think sort of the early reopening play was a bit also the Passive Recruiting. So maybe you can just spend a few words on, yes, drilling down a little bit on the growth in this segment.

[Petra Von Strombeck, executive]

Will do. So actually, we see growth in all segments of the E-Recruiting business. The highest growth rates are within the transactional business jobs. That's one of them. And I announced already that this is roughly 40% up year-over-year. And another factor that is important is also the bundles. We have a high increase in the bundles we sell because given the high recruiting needs, many of our customers have decided actually to increase the usage of products to a bundle resell. So those are the highest increases, but we see growth in all of the different segments.

[Unknown Analyst]

Okay. That's very helpful. And maybe you can spend just also a few words on how satisfied you are with the app relaunch basically? Is everything in line with what you've been expecting? Or are there certain points where you would have expected different results?

[Petra Von Strombeck, executive]

Actually, everything is in line with expectation. That's true. But the repositioning of a big brand is obviously a process and it's nothing that you do over night. So we will shift perception and shift to new features and increase our performance on job orientation and job offering step by step by step.

So that's a process we started. We see very encouraging results and get positive feedback from users on the new features like the guide, et cetera, and we will be launching new things also. But that's a process we will see over time. But so far, everything is as expected.

[Unknown Analyst]

And okay. That's helpful. Maybe just one little follow-up on what you've mentioned earlier about the bundles. Can you sort of quantify what the penetration is in your customer base, meaning what's the percentage of customers using bundles, and therefore, also, what's the potential that's left to be converted to bundles?

[Petra Von Strombeck, executive]

Actually, there is a lot of potential left. If we look at the number of products they use, and this includes bundles, the number is 1.x and x is not very high. So definitely, there is a lot of room.

And as you know, we are working towards a seamless recruiting experience with one product where you can actually then easily access all the other fields and have a seamless recruiting experience, and that will obviously then, in the future, also continue our uplift in cross-sell to other products.

[Ingo Chu, executive]

You have to compare to 1.x to about 4 types of solutions that we offer, Active, Passive, Employer Branding and epic and tracking system solutions. And then even within those 4 types of solutions, there is 2, which is Active and Passive, where we can have a number of licenses, increase the number of licenses. So just as Petra has -- just to give you the other side of -- 1.x is really low.

[Operator]

[Operator Instructions] There is a chat question. Wondering if you could elaborate a little bit on how it is possible or planned to [ further XING ] and kununu, how that could look like and if cross-selling effects could be generated here or will be generated.

[Petra Von Strombeck, executive]

Between the 2 C-side destinations, is that how...

[Operator]

Between those 2 exactly. I think it's more a general question of understanding.

[Petra Von Strombeck, executive]

Yes, of course. I mean we have 2 different brands that have different roles. XING is obviously the brand where we have a profile, where I look for a concrete job, where I get orientation, but I have -- I do have a personal profile and then will get personal recommendation.

On the other side, kununu, as a review platform, is an anonymous platform. And we will stick to that scenario and the 2 brands because both have an important role and then cover that growth. We will obviously cooperate between the 2 brands to strengthen one another. One example is that we have all the kununu reviews on the job adverts in XING so that our jobs marketplace gets more relevant.

We have recently integrated all the kununu culture ratings on the job ads to make sure that the people can also check whether they have the right culture. On the other hand, we use XING and XING reach to collect reviews on kununu. So yes, there is a lot of cooperation back and forth, and the 2 brands strengthen one another and we profit from the synergies.

[Operator]

We will continue with another question regarding your penetration of international markets and growing internationally. I just wondered which countries are the most important targets at the moment.

[Petra Von Strombeck, executive]

We have a clear focus on the DACH market because that's -- and it's obviously [ doing Austria's ], but still at the net, that's where all our strong assets are. I mean XING has more than 20 million or roughly 21 million members in the DACH region. kununu has millions of reviews in the DACH region. The thousands of HR customers are in the DACH region. So we are definitely a local hero. Our target is to reach, to be the recruiting partner, #1, by winning talents in the DACH region. We have no intention to internationalize.

[Operator]

I think that was exactly what the question was about. So thank you for making that clear. There's another question from Catharina Claes.

[Catharina Claes, analyst]

I was just wondering, in terms of the EBITDA margin, actually, when I look at the other years, pre-COVID, the Q1 margin was always more in the 20% range, which I believe was due to the marketing campaign. I was now wondering why it is a bit higher than that in Q1 2022, particularly because the marketing campaign did take place as it seasonally is planned for.

[Ingo Chu, executive]

Yes, good question. Actually, there's several reasons for that. Number one, you remember that, last year, we've been kind of in the intermediate phase between we had the positive impact from our restructuring efforts on the cost side, but then, at the same time, we used the leeway that we got there to reallocate these costs and actually to hire, to staff and drive other initiatives.

And I mean, what is helping us on the revenue side, i.e., talent is very scarce, is also kind of like inhibiting us on the input side, right? And so what we do see is that hiring is becoming more and more difficult. So we are not yet fully back in investment mode. That is one part.

And then the second part is, yes, last year, we were in lockdown. This year, we were not in lockdown, but still somewhat inhibited. So you see that like expenses like traveling and entertainment for our salespeople and marketing events, et cetera, are ramping up higher than last year, but they are not yet at the full level.

That's why we are not in, like, for example, in Q1 2019, we had a margin with the marketing campaign of 28%. Now we are at 34%. Also, the marketing campaign in 2019 was a little bit bigger than this year.

[Operator]

At this stage, we have not received any further questions. It seems to be everything is answered for the moment. Hence, we are coming to the end of this earnings call. Thanks again very much, Petra and Ingo, for taking the time on the presentation and answering the questions, of course. Also, to all analysts and investors, thank you very much for taking the time. I now hand over to you for some final remarks before closing this call.

[Petra Von Strombeck, executive]

Well, thank you, everybody, for your interest and your questions. See you next time at our general assembly, and stay happy until we see you soon. Bye.