AlzChem Group AG

XETRA:ACT

Earnings Call Transcript 2020-Q3

[Operator]

Dear ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the conference call of AlzChem Group Ag. At our customer's request, this conference will be recorded. [Operator Instructions] May I now hand you over to Andreas Niedermaier, CEO, who will lead you through this conference. Please go ahead, sir.

[Andreas Niedermaier, CEO & Chairman of Executive Board]

Hello. Good morning, everybody. Thank you for joining us today, and welcome to our third analyst call for this year. As always, we start with an executive summary and then move on to the figures after some strategic topics. So at the end of the presentation, we will be available for sure for additional questions. So let's skip the disclaimer and go directly to the Page 4. So now you should see the Page 4. Let's start here with a brief overview of the overall situation. So after a good second quarter, which compared favorably to the previous year, the third quarter could not meet the previous year's result. With the continuation of the COVID-19 pandemic, it is becoming apparent that the weakness of the metallurgy and automotive market is persisting for AlzChem and is affecting more and more industries. Despite our product base volume effects from, examples, the automotive, the aircraft construction, lightweight construction, our steel production and nutrition sectors could not or no longer be fully compensated. So this also led to the fact that we had to issue an ad hoc release on October 14 with adjustments to sales and earnings. So far, we have been largely spared from direct COVID-19 cases of illness, even though the topic is a constant challenge and will regain importance. There is a rising number of reported cases in the districts in which we operate our factories. And I think we are on the highest line of incidents here in our district, what is really a bad situation. But our high-end concepts have been effective so far, and prevented further multiplication or domino effects of COVID-19 infections at new workplaces it sells. Usually, they came always from the private situation to the company. So in the reporting period, oil production facilities were stable and running without any COVID-19-related interruptions. Despite the generally weaker sales, selected business such as NITRALZ and Bioselect are performing very, very well. So this takes us up straight to the next page. And there, I will hand over to my colleague, Dr. Georg Weichselbaumer.

[Georg Weichselbaumer, Chief Sales Officer & Member of Executive Board]

Thank you, Andreas. Let me continue. As frequently reported in recent quarters, the NITRALZ business has developed very favorably. In summer of last year, we successfully commissioned the first expansion phase, which we were able to fully utilize very quickly. Ongoing inquiries from the pharmaceutical and bioscience industries have prompted us to start the next expansion step. The investment sum is expected to be around EUR 12 million, which will result in a capacity increase of about 50%. The annual sales potential depends on the product mix and is comparable in size to the investment amount, but in any case, more than EUR 10 million. Now what was the detailed motivation for our investment at least this time, continue on the next page. We have vast experience in the gas phase process. And via ongoing improvements, we make certain that we are a benchmark for the market. Our process is continuous, solvent-free, and therefore sustainable. We are seen by our customers as a very reliable source of raw materials, made in Germany. But production aspects are only the basis. On the market side, there are developments that support our decision. Many of our customers search for a robust supply chain, and AlzChem, as the sole non-Chinese supplier of nitriles, is a centerpiece of this strategy. This is especially the case for sartane, a kind of heart medication, and BIT, a biocide. In addition, more and more environmentally friendly pigments based on raw materials are being developed and used. And for this, we are able to deliver. Despite, or maybe because of COVID-19, we have already been able to sell a substantial part of the additional capacities to our customers. This is what finally convinced us to initiate and implement this expansion investment even in these unusual times. In September of this year, the first installations were started. And we have reached the final phase of the project financing with our banks for EUR 10 million. So far to the NITRALZ investment. Now let's discuss the specific figures on the next page. Back to Andreas.

[Andreas Niedermaier, CEO & Chairman of Executive Board]

Yes. That's my part again. So we are on the Page 7 now. And in the third quarter of 2020, sales decreased by 18.20% year-on-year to EUR 81.4 million. Unfortunately, we have seen declining sales in all 3 segments in this quarter, with the largest percentage decline in the basic and intermediate segment. This is the main reason why the EBITDA margin increased by 1.1 percentage points year-on-year in the quarter and by 0.4 percentage points in the 9-month period. So what was the rationale behind it? We lost this proportionality a large amount of lower-margin business/commodities and gained higher-margin business/specialties. In this quarter, we mainly lost in structural terms by 17.7% in volume and 0.7% over the currency. Along with sales, also EBITDA fell short by approximately EUR 1.6 million to approximately EUR 12 million compared to the same quarter of the previous year. As a consequence of lower sales in the third quarter, wholesale sales in the first 9 months are down by 3.1% on the previous year, followed by an EBITDA of EUR 41.1 million. This leads to a slightly higher EBITDA margin for the full year as the sales program for specialties was more stable overall. Earnings per share fell from EUR 1.66 to EUR 1.46 per share. The decline is due to a significantly higher depreciation following the high level of CapEx in the past especially in the last 2 years for the Creamino project. All in all, despite the COVID-19 crisis situation, which has now lasted longer than initially anticipated, we are doing quite well. And despite the decline in sales, our EBITDA is roughly at the previous year's level. So much for the big picture and the overview. Let us now analyze some more details on the different segments. And here, we go straight to the Page 10, I think is the next page. So only to remember, the basic and intermediates segment comprises the production of basic and intermediates products. They are either required for the manufacturer of specialty chemicals or market as stand-alone products. The products are used in a variety of applications; for example, in agriculture, steel and automotive industry. So in the basic and intermediate segment, after a robust first half year, the declines of quarter 3, 2020 could not longer be fully offset. The volume declines of over 30% in the metallurgical and automotive sectors and could not longer be offset by the other products and markets either here. Other market development, including a corresponding investment in the NITRALZ product range and expansion of Perlka applications and [ cultures ] as well as stable supply of basic material pharmaceutical and products proved to be the main cornerstones in Q3 2020 as well. So -- but the volume could not longer compensate for the decline in the metallurgical and automotive business here. The quarterly revenues fell by 22.5% to EUR 32.3 million with a respectable EBITDA of EUR 2 million. Nevertheless, our year-to-date revenue is only 7.3% below the previous year. And on the earnings side, we were able to turn that cumulative result positive. On the one hand, we were able to change the sales program towards higher-value products, the key word here is the investment in the trials and higher sales for this product group. And on the other hand, the favorable raw materials market also supported our margins here. So that's the information about basic and intermediate segments. Let us now move on to the specialties segment, which is on Page 12. You should now see this slide with a slight delay, I think. So only to remember here again, the Specialty Chemicals segment produces and sells high-quality specialty chemicals such as Creamino, Creapure, Bioselect, DYHARD and Dormex, only to name a few here. For the first 9 months of the year, the Specialty Chemicals segment can report both extraordinary success and significant volume declines as well. So Bioselect, being a part of the COVID-19 test kit, has experienced a very strong growth push. Products from our multipurpose plants were also placed in the Specialty and Fine chemicals market in good volumes, even if this were somewhat weaker in the Q3. The volume sales trend for our product, Creamino, also continued to rise for the 9-month period. Also, Q3 volumes did not meet our expectations here though the COVID-19 pandemic hit us very hard especially in the third quarter. This applies also to the DYHARD and nitroguanidine product areas, as they supply important specialties in renewable energy applications, likewise constructions, the automotive sector and the aircraft construction. But cumulative sales of the specialties were roughly on a par with the previous year; even so, Q3 was relatively weak here. Despite the ongoing investment in marketing activities in connection with our new Creapure derivates like Livadur, segment EBITDA increased slightly in quarter 3 as well as for the 9-month period based on a strict cost management and successful production process improvement. So that's the information about Specialty Chemicals, quick and short. Let us now move on to the third segment. This is on the Page 14. Here, we are talking about the Others and Holdings. And I think now you should see this page as well. To remember here again, the Other & Holding segment comprises all the other activities not allocated to the other segments. These services are mainly related to the chemical [ parks ] Trostberg and Hart, which AlzChem operates also for third parties. And in addition, administrative services are allocated to this segment. So in the first 9 months of 2020, the Other & Holding segment was not quite able to match the sales of the previous year. In line with reduced production volumes, variable site services like compressed air, instrument air, operating gas, natural gas and technical services and so on, declined slightly here. So the decline in sales in the quarter amounts to about 10% compared to about 5% for the 9-month period, so that we see this segment more or less stable turnover-wise. The segment earnings reflect higher prices, following an increase of costs beyond our control. And the ongoing renovation of maintenance measures on the plant's own infrastructure also had an impact on EBITDA. Last year's EBITDA was supported by lower regular maintenance measures among other things. And this year, we had higher costs here to renovate our infrastructure. Okay. Then let us now take a look at the balance sheet. This is the Page 15 -- so the balance sheet in total remained more or less stable on a level of EUR 342 million. Let's elaborate on the major changes within the assets. In line with lower CapEx, tangible assets decreased by EUR 3.4 million to EUR 182.9 million here. And compared to December 2019, inventory stayed more or less on the same level with a slightly decreasing trend. Our efforts to keep the stock low have, therefore, been successful, which is a very good information as we think. As already indicated in summer, receivables have returned to the lower level of the previous year, we can see this effect even more clearly in our cash flow later on. So what else is there to discuss in the liability side, equity increased by 2.7 to EUR 64 million. This led to an equity ratio of 18.7% compared to 17.9% in the previous year. And the long-term valuation interest rates increased from 0.9% to 1.7% in the first quarter and are now back on the level -- on the very low level of 0.7%. And this had the effect that the pension provision was again significantly higher, namely at the level of EUR 141.5 million here. So in addition, the scheduled repayment of loan liabilities led to a reduction in noncurrent liabilities of approximately EUR 8.5 million to EUR 77.6 million here. We will hear some more detail later on in the cash flow analysis. And with a good cash flow in general, it was also possible to reduce current liabilities, which are now again below the previous year on the level of EUR 59.3 million here. So I think that's enough for the balance sheet analysis or for the first analysis. Let us now have some words about the cash flow. We will see this information on the next page, which is the Page 16. So the cash flow development continues to be very positive. The cash inflow from operating activities increased from EUR 25.6 million to EUR 33.8 million year-on-year. This reflects the decrease in net working capital and a strong operating business itself. So at EUR 16 million, the cash flow from investing activities was approximately half of the previous year. And the main reason are, of course, the absence of major projects for the time being and somewhat lower CapEx activities due to the COVID-19. So for the new project within the NITRALZ, we will see approximately half of the CapEx this year in the balance sheet by the end of the year and the other half approximately next year. So as a result, we have clearly positive free cash flow compared to the previous year here. And AlzChem's financing activities in the 9 months of 2019 were still largely characterized by the payment of the remaining loan amount to finance the new Creamino plant in the amount of EUR 30 million. And in contrast, financing activities in 2020 focused on the scheduled repayment of loans and the repayment of leasing liabilities. Overall, this led to a cash flow from financing activities of minus EUR 14.1 million, including the dividend payment. So despite the cash outflows from CapEx and financing activities, cash and cash equivalents were turned from minus EUR 3 million to EUR 3.6 million due to the strong cash inflow from operating activities here. So after this analysis of the cash flow, a few words to our targets to this Page 17. Before the coronavirus determined everything, our goals were and are the following: continued development of the market for Creamino is and will remain our top priority here. So far, we are on schedule with this goal, but we do notice some delays, especially in testing the product within our customers due to COVID-19. The meat pipeline is more or less full. Slaughterhouses had to close down temporarily in some cases, and which is why our customers are more concentrating on their basic processes rather than on optimizations with Creamino. Nevertheless, we are confident that the growth process around Creamino will accelerate again latest in the next year when we have passed the COVID-19 issue, hopefully. The further development of NITRALZ strategy with a net capacity expansion and CapEx is also an important topic for this year. Installation has already started in September, financing is close to signature and commissioning is planned for the end of quarter 2 in the year 2021. So here, we are on track, and we have already heard all the details from Georg a few minutes ago. So we also intend to intensify the topic of sustainability. The 2 most important topics are 0 accidents and the goal of CO2 neutrality. In terms of accidents, we started lower than the last years and thanks to the excellent safety work of our employees. In addition, we have established a sustainability team in our organization, which was charged with developing defined sustainability goals. So there, we will hear more results in the next calls, I think. So -- and as already described, we are working hard to grow our LIVADUR portfolio and implement our strategy here. As we are behind our plans here, we are diverting our sales effort in the direction of online. You can probably already see this on all channels like Instagram, Facebook or LinkedIn, hopefully -- and this hopefully brings more success in the sales pipeline. Corona, unfortunately, controls a big chunk of the complete daily routine and we are in the process of meeting all hygiene regulations. So far, our plants are up and running, and we have made a respectable 9 months even at a slightly lower sales level than originally expected. Unfortunately, we are again in a lockdown, which is why we had to issue a [ talk ] announcement for the forecast a few weeks ago. So the results or the forecast we see on the next page, which is Page 18. Due to the Q3 experience, we had to adjust sales from slightly to sharply rising, back to stable to slightly lower. On the earnings side, we are moving from stable to sharply rising, to now stable to moderately lower. Due to the confusion caused by the COVID-19 in the mid-market, the Creamino growth is delayed, and the steel crisis will be prolonged as we see in our P&L. So the Bioselect and the trials business can make up for a lot. And that's the reason why we can report here a more or less stable result. So the order book for Q4 underpins and supports this forecast very well, allowing us to focus on our operating business. And therefore, we feel really confident that we will make this year on this level as we have already reported now. So at this point, we would like to thank you for your appreciated attention, and we are now at your disposable -- disposal for possible questions, if there are any.

[Operator]

[Operator Instructions] And the first question we received is from Markus Mayer of Baader-Helvea.

[Markus Mayer, Lead Analyst of Chemicals]

Several questions from my side. I think it makes sense to ask them one by one. In the Specialty Chemicals business, this decline versus the third quarter. Was there any pre-buying in the second quarter, which you would now see as prebuying? And is this then lower result in the second quarter? Or how would you explain this lower demand, in particular in the automotive-related businesses where other committed players saw the weakness already in the second quarter? That would be my first question.

[Georg Weichselbaumer, Chief Sales Officer & Member of Executive Board]

Yes. Thank you for the question. When we look back and compare Q2 and Q3, there was a sudden decline from June to July. We didn't see too much reductions in the second quarter. And now with hindsight, it looks like our customers accumulated some inventories, used up those inventories and then tried to adjust to the regular market demand, which was much lower than previously anticipated.

[Andreas Niedermaier, CEO & Chairman of Executive Board]

But we have seen a quite good September and a really good October again. So therefore, we feel really confident that we will make the outlook as already forecasted here.

[Markus Mayer, Lead Analyst of Chemicals]

Okay. Understood. That is very good because that was one of my next questions, if the automotive recovery is also accelerating in the fourth quarter, or it's mainly automotive for the metallurgy where you see a recovery starting.

[Georg Weichselbaumer, Chief Sales Officer & Member of Executive Board]

Yes. We see the recovery in both of those markets. However, and that was the main reason for our warning, it started slower than we had originally anticipated. But now we see it month-by-month increasing.

[Andreas Niedermaier, CEO & Chairman of Executive Board]

But especially in the steel branch, it started really on a lower level as formerly expected from our point.

[Markus Mayer, Lead Analyst of Chemicals]

Okay. And then coming to Bioselect. Was Bioselect flat quarter-over-quarter? Or was it even up? And given this current situation, I guess, there should be a huge demand and at least in the fourth quarter, if not early in the third quarter. Maybe somewhat words in Bioselect be helpful.

[Georg Weichselbaumer, Chief Sales Officer & Member of Executive Board]

Yes. That's correct. There's a huge demand for Bio select and the demand ramped up so quickly that we could not meet all the requirements from the customers. And as we had indicated in Q2 we made investment into our equipment in order to accommodate the request. But even then, we were not fully able to meet the demands. And as we now gain experience in production, we are able to increase the output of the unit. And for all the additional volumes which we can produce we have customers who still look for additional volumes being from a reliable source, which -- on which they can depend.

[Andreas Niedermaier, CEO & Chairman of Executive Board]

And we have already decided to invest more into this product group to follow the market demand here.

[Markus Mayer, Lead Analyst of Chemicals]

Okay. And that was my next question. This additional capacity, you mentioned, is this then in this multipurpose plant or is it specific in Bioselect?

[Georg Weichselbaumer, Chief Sales Officer & Member of Executive Board]

We actually had thought about making it also in the multipurpose plants, but the quality is very, very critical. And this is also a very critical decision point for our customers. So we decided not to go into the multipurpose plant, but to expand the Bioselect unit which, as I mentioned, is now increasing in output. And since our expectation is that COVID-19 will not be completed either this year or in the first quarter of next year, our expectation is it will be with us at least for the full next year, we decided that we also, again, will slightly increase the capacity of the bio select unit.

[Markus Mayer, Lead Analyst of Chemicals]

Okay. Understood. Coming to Creamino, this weakness you have described due to this full mid value chain. Is this weaker demand basically coming from this kind of effect? Or do you also see a change in competition now with Evonik being more active in the market?

[Georg Weichselbaumer, Chief Sales Officer & Member of Executive Board]

Yes. It's a mixed bag of different things. I mean as already indicated in the call, we have a few effects. One is that birds are grown slower. And therefore, the growers go to a more basic diet, which doesn't require Creamino. In addition, due to COVID-19, there was less testing because our customers didn't know how to adjust to that. That has changed now slightly. We see now an uptick in the number of requests because our customers have now had come to grips with the fact that it will remain, and they continue on with their regular business. On the competitive side, we certainly see an impact of Evonik returning. However, so far, we have been able to defend most of our accounts. And the market mechanism is still in a good shape. So therefore, the market we can tackle or we can open is more than 100,000 tonnes. And you see we have approximately 20,000 to 25,000 tonnes capacity there. And Evonik has a much lower capacity than we have. So therefore, we are not able to fully supply the market today. But to create a market, to open the market it's much more difficult within the COVID-19 situation now. So -- but as Georg already said, we see more testing within our customers. And therefore, we think that we will grow next year from a better point of view.

[Markus Mayer, Lead Analyst of Chemicals]

Yes. [ Add on ] question, your comment said you were able to defend most of the account. I guess most of your accounts are happy if they have 2 supply sources. Will, therefore, most likely not either/or. Is this a fair assumption?

[Georg Weichselbaumer, Chief Sales Officer & Member of Executive Board]

Yes. I think that's a very fair assumption. Every customer prefers to have various sources of supply. And in particular, in the fourth quarter, we have seen that some customers are making qualification trials with Evonik material which is not Evonik material, but which they source in from external. And the real decisions, what the share of supply will be, is in the first quarter of next year.

[Markus Mayer, Lead Analyst of Chemicals]

Okay. Then I have 2 final questions. One is on the short coming, you said, decline in -- of demand in the renewable business. I'm astonished on this kind of sentence or saying, because this is not visible in other companies active in this field. Like [ iwanigacor ]. Where is this coming from?

[Georg Weichselbaumer, Chief Sales Officer & Member of Executive Board]

Yes. That's correct, but we need to look at the products which we sell into the renewables energy segment. It's -- on one side, it is silicon nitride. And that business has moved completely to China. All our customers are in China. And there is quite some domestic production of silicon nitride also in China. And as a consequence, we lose in sales. We have counteracted that by developing it for more technical applications, which is not -- no longer in renewable energies, but which helps us to grow silicon nitride. Second thing is DYHARD, which goes, for example, into automotive applications but also aircraft applications. And in particular, from the aircraft sector, there is close to 0 demand.

[Markus Mayer, Lead Analyst of Chemicals]

Yes. Okay. Understood. On my last question. [ Your view ] on the slower raw material effect in your Basics intermediates division, how long do you expect this effect to stay? Is this something which is more sustainable? Or is this something you might have to pass on to your customers relatively quickly?

[Andreas Niedermaier, CEO & Chairman of Executive Board]

So what we see on the market is that coal prices are more or less flat. So we have seen some smaller increases in the last weeks. But from our calculation, we see flat markets for the next year here as well. And from the electricity point of view, we tried to purchase forward contracts in advance. And therefore, we saved more or less a real good level of electricity prices for next -- and for the year behind the next year as well. So therefore, we expect slightly higher raw material prices for the next years, but not really completely changed again.

[Operator]

The next question received is from [ Lisa Sharma ].

[Andreas Heine]

Actually it's Andreas Heine from Stifel. If it's confused, you might know us under MainFirst. But since this week, we have the brand Stifel. I have one question again on Creamino. As far I know it is a patent product, so Evonik is not allowed to produce without your permission. Can you say how that works with this license you have given to them financially? That's the first question. And second one is on [ Asia ] with the bioscience for animal production. Do you see any, let's say, higher interest in that product? During -- or due to this COVID crisis and higher intensity of hygiene in the meat production, and also in the context of the Asian swine flu? And the -- one question I have on -- the last one was on these silicon nitride. I think these silicon S cubes, which went to the solar industry was even more than half of this product. Is this business, the silicon nitride now in a very tough and difficult situation, so in other words, loss-making, until you find enough clients for the industrial application in the [ agronomic ] areas?

[Georg Weichselbaumer, Chief Sales Officer & Member of Executive Board]

Let's go at it one topic at a time. The arrangement which we have with Evonik is very simple. They need to pay us a license fee for every kilogram they sell. And the license is not a manufacturing license, but it is a license for material, which is sold as a feed additive. That's -- is that a satisfactory answer?

[Andreas Heine]

Well, it means that you benefit from that growth as well, not to the full extent if you would sell it, but you have an advantage if the market is growing by the company.

[Georg Weichselbaumer, Chief Sales Officer & Member of Executive Board]

Yes, it's correct, and that's part also of our calculation, that with Evonik entering the picture, the overall market size will increase because not only we will develop applications, they will as well. Then the second question on hygiene. To be honest, I didn't fully understand the full content. Could you rephrase...

[Andreas Heine]

Yes. The [ agri one ] is used as a biocide in the prevention of disease in animal production. And I was thinking whether, let's say, the higher awareness on everything which has to do with disinfection hygiene in general, and more specifically on the African swine flu and these kind of pandemics, whether you see higher interest in -- from meat producers in these kind of products. So in [ agriwase and monda fim ]?

[Georg Weichselbaumer, Chief Sales Officer & Member of Executive Board]

Yes. There are 2 opposing trends, which you mentioned. One is higher hygiene on one side. The other one is, in particular, the African swine fever. And thirdly, also less consumption of meat in total as a consequence. So what we see in the market is that the growing periods for swine are extended and that -- and all the growers resupply mainly in changeover when the pigs are -- when the stores are empty. And those periods are delayed, so that's a little bit on the downside. So on the upper side it's correct. So customers put more attention to that and have a higher demand for their product.

[Andreas Niedermaier, CEO & Chairman of Executive Board]

So we have not seen a big chunk of growth this year, but we are prepared to support the market. And we see the issue and are prepared really to support the market if the demand will grow in next year, what could probably be the case.

[Georg Weichselbaumer, Chief Sales Officer & Member of Executive Board]

Yes. On silicon nitride, it is correct that the solar application was, for some time, much bigger than the technical applications, but we have seen the decline in the S cube material for now several quarters, that's nothing which surprised us immediately. And we are taking countermeasures to preserve also our results. We have 2 plants for making silicon nitride. We have developed both into a state so that we can make material in either of the plants and reduce the operating expenses for both plants to keep it on a profitable level. And we have also looked at the strategy going forward and see that there are a few applications in the technical side in which we can grow. So we also expect that the utilization of those plants will go up again.

[Andreas Niedermaier, CEO & Chairman of Executive Board]

So this is one of the strengths of the AlzChem Group. So if 1 production goes down, we have other production stay raised. And therefore, we changed the situation here. We took the personnel, for example, to the Bioselect production as well and to the multi-purpose plants. And therefore, we were able to reduce the costs very quick, and we do not see too much negative results here for this case.

[Operator]

[Operator Instructions] And we received a further question. It's from Manfred Piontke of MPPM.

[Manfred Piontke]

Yes. Question to LIVADUR and similar stuff. I'm a little bit wondering about that you are not benefiting of corona-related. You mind from people to buy stuff to be healthy and to improve share. How's this situation? And what are you doing to participate? What is your marketing strategy? You mentioned the social media. LIVADUR, I believe, is for people 50 plus. If I'm looking television in the prime time, around 19:00 or 20:00 o'clock, you can see a lot of -- yes, more or less 100% is for older people, healthy stuff and health. LIVADUR is never presented here. Why do you take no more money in your hand to speed up here to build up a brand, which is recognizable here in this -- by these people? What is your strategy here? Are you planning maybe to give this outside to more sophisticated and specialized companies and only to get a license here?

[Georg Weichselbaumer, Chief Sales Officer & Member of Executive Board]

Let me address the first question. Why is LIVADUR not benefiting from the current COVID developments? The active ingredient or the active compound in LIVADUR is creatine. And we sell it both in LIVADUR as well as in other markets with the benefit or claim for both: that it only works if people exercise in parallel. With the current shutdowns in COVID, be it in gyms, be it in people are confined to their homes, it would actually counter productive if people took LIVADUR, because they could not recognize the benefits. And if people do not recognize the benefit, they will not continue to buy. So it's a mixed feeling if people were to buy more LIVADUR and could not move, they actually would not see any benefits. And that's also the reason why the whole Creapure is not increasing as a consequence of COVID-19. From the sales and marketing side, yes, correct. When you watch TV, in particular prior to target show, you see products, which go into the same application. But it is also correct, as you indicated, that we have decided deliberately not to go and spend the amounts which are required for TV advertising, in particular at that time. We have initially started to market it through pharmacies. But we had to realize that, that business is slower than we anticipated. As a consequence, we reacted, and we are now focusing our efforts on online sales, be it online pharmacies, but not only online pharmacies, but online sales in general. We are diverting our efforts. We are diverting our expenses, therefore, and we are implementing the strategy 1 part at a time.

[Andreas Niedermaier, CEO & Chairman of Executive Board]

Yes. From the financial point of view, we try to be really careful here and only to invest as much as we can. So for sure, if we would have invested EUR 5 million to EUR 10 million, then our EBITDA would have been at the level of EUR 40 million, and that's the virtual circle. We try to fulfill, on the one hand, to have good financials and to report good financials and to invest in parallel in a very new market for us in the B2C market. So we always recorded that we want to do that on a slow speed, on a low speed. And on this level, we can and we try to afford. Okay?

[Manfred Piontke]

Yes. On the first point, I'm not really agreeing. I see the people around me the 50 plus, is not really the guys who are running to a gym. But if they are done, they are now at home and they are buying home trainer and doing this at home. So just in these times where other things are not possible, you look on your body and you make home training or something else. So -- and people are looking television much more, that you could see on all the figures. And you see the prices for marketing is coming down heavily, that you can see as the result of -- [ imesachel ]. So it has been, from my opinion, a really good chance to build up here a brand. LIVADUR and all the other stuff is not really visible. And if I'm looking at what margins are possible here, if you had a really good plan to build up a brand and afterwards to get on the benefit from with this high margin. Me for -- as an investor, I would agree to do so and take EUR 10 million from your EBITDA in your hand and invest it in these sites.

[Andreas Niedermaier, CEO & Chairman of Executive Board]

Okay. Thank you for this information. So this could be that we will rethink the position again for sure. But what we can tell you is that we tried to do TV, television advertising in the U.S. And it was really difficult because of the Presidential election to get the TV spots done there. But the result was that we hadn't been more successful than in Germany. So therefore, we are a little cautious about this topic.

[Manfred Piontke]

Yes, maybe you also have to rethink about your sales channels as only to distribute by...

[Andreas Niedermaier, CEO & Chairman of Executive Board]

It's only by pharmacies. Yes, yes, you're completely right. We did already this so from this point of view, we decided not only to sell through the pharmacies. Yes. We are available online. And I think if you Google LIVADUR, you will find it in several stores now, and it's broadly available online, what it wasn't half a year ago, I think.

[Manfred Piontke]

Okay. Then if I'm online, then other question to Bioselect. Is Bioselect in every corona test or only in the old one and not in the new ones, the fast ones. And the other things.

[Georg Weichselbaumer, Chief Sales Officer & Member of Executive Board]

Yes. I can answer that question. However, I would like not to call it the old ones and the new ones. It's rather what tests are used at which level. There are, in total, 3 different tests. The first one, and the still most frequently used one is the PCR test. That's the test where you take samples from your throat, where that material is dissolved. And in each and every of those tests, we are present. And those tests will continue to stay because they are considered as the gold standard in the industry. And also the feedback from the customers is that those will remain at the current level. And actually may even increase not only as a part -- as a consequence of COVID, but also from other applications for other diseases, which they use also PCR tests. The second test which is used is the antibody test. Where also the sample which you take from the humans is dissolved. And also there, the Bioselect is used. In the third test, which is now the newest one, where you can get results within 15 to 30 minutes. We are not present in those tests because there the virus remains intact and is analyzed as the virus as such. So we are in 2 out of the 3 tests. And the feedback from the customers is that those will stay at the current level for quite some time.

[Operator]

[Operator Instructions] And we have a follow up of Andreas Heine of Stifel.

[Andreas Heine]

Yes. I'd like to ask you on Creamino. It is a very prominent product of you. But how international is your sales split right now? You mentioned quite a bit what I thought is more a problem in Germany with the slaughterhouses been seeing quite a lot of corona infection, has been closed. Whereas in other places, the change in demand has not been that much. Looking on what other companies and [ intermediaries ] like DSM and Evonik were talking about is just they have seen, let's say, a very strong demand in the first half, which faded a little bit in the third quarter. So kind of normalization so that from over the 9 months period, the growth was still healthy in the range of 5%, 6% for the total animal feed business. How does that compare to what you see? So is that because your business is less international that you see more of that or [ higher than ] that?

[Andreas Niedermaier, CEO & Chairman of Executive Board]

Quite the opposite. I think we have talked about that quite a few times. We are as international as we can be. We have built up an organization which covers every continent in the Europe and the U.S. with our own people. And in the other regions with agents which are quite established in those markets. However, the COVID-related consequences, you see in every market. When you look at, in particular, at the U.S., where there have been very prominent cases of the shutdown of slaughterhouses, not only because of COVID, because also as a consequence of the fact that people who are there stay very close together and the working conditions had been an issue already before and were just worsened by the COVID-19 incidence. So we see it in every market. We see it differently, in markets in Southeast Asia we see quite some growth. In Brazil, it remains fairly stable. The biggest market, but also the markets with the biggest issues are in Europe and in the U.S. And if compared to particularly Evonik and DSM, we have 1 product, which is used in the premium feed of the feeders, which are currently not the diets, which are favored because the premium leads to quick growth of birds. That's currently not mainly the target. It's more to feed the basic diets to the birds, which takes a little longer, but which is more in line with market demand. So yes, we are not comparable to Evonik here. Because with Creamino, we serve the segment which is prominent if the demand is up, and that's currently not the case.

[Operator]

As there are no further questions, I hand back to Mr. Niedermaier for closing remarks.

[Andreas Niedermaier, CEO & Chairman of Executive Board]

Yes. Thank you very much for your questions. It was a very interesting discussion, I think. We can now offer you the opportunity to visit us virtually at the Deutsches Eigenkapitalforum next week, at the Berenberg European Conference in London on November 30, and at the Munich Capital Market Conference on December 8 and 9. There are still some slots open. So if you're interested in, you can book a slot. So -- or to return not later than the next annual report, which is on March 19 in 2021. So up to this time, stay well and healthy. And goodbye from our side here.

[Operator]

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for your attendance. This call has been concluded. You may disconnect.