Colliers International Group Inc

TSX:CIGI

Earnings Call Transcript 2021-Q3

[Operator]

Hello, and welcome to Colliers International Third Quarter 2021 Quarter Investors Conference Call. Today's call is being recorded. Legal counsel requires us to advise that the discussion scheduled to take place today may contain forward-looking statements that involve known and unknown risks and uncertainties. Actual results may be materially different from any future results, performance or achievements contemplated in the forward-looking statements. Additional information concerning factors that could cause actual results to materially differ from those in the forward-looking statements is contained in the company's annual information form as filed with the Canadian Securities Administrators and in the company's annual report on Form 40-F is filed with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission.As a reminder, today's call is being recorded. Today is November 2 in 2021. And at this time, for opening remarks and introductions, I would like to turn the call over to the Global Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Mr. Jay Hennick. Please go ahead, sir.

[Jay Stewart Hennick, Global Chairman & CEO]

Thank you, operator. Good morning, and thanks for joining us for the third quarter conference call. As the operator mentioned, I'm Jay Hennick, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of the company. And with me today is Christian Mayer, Chief Financial Officer. As always, this call is being webcast and is available in the Investor Relations section of our website. A presentation slide deck is also there to accompany today's call.Earlier today, Colliers delivered strong results for the third quarter with continued momentum across all service lines. Here are some of the highlights. Investment management again generated strong results for the quarter, raised a record $4.9 billion in capital commitments so far this year and finished the quarter with AUM or assets under management of more than $46 billion. Capital Markets and Leasing were both up significantly over the prior year, while our recurring Outsource and Advisory segment including Engineering and Design, Property and Project management and Mortgage Servicing and Valuation also delivered solid internal growth.Given these strong results and the continued momentum we are seeing, we now expect Colliers to exceed the top end of the previously provided outlook as you'll hear from Christian in just a few minutes.During the quarter, we released our Elevate the built environment framework designed to embed ESG practices across our organization. We are implementing specific targets to reduce carbon emissions, and we have committed to net zero in our own operations by 2030. And expect more of our ESG efforts coming in the upcoming quarters. Last wake, Colliers formally announced its new Enterprise '25 growth strategy setting out ambitious growth targets for 2025. Over the next 5 years, we will strive to double our profitability and generate more than 60% of our adjusted EBITDA from recurring services. As shareholders know, our 5-year plans have always been an important road map for our company. If we're able to achieve our new Enterprise 2025 growth plan, it will be very good news for shareholders.After quarter end, we announced two acquisitions Antirion and Colliers Italy, both of which are expected to close by the end of the first quarter of 2022. Antirion, one of the largest investment management firms in Italy with more than $4 billion in AUM will augment our Colliers Global Investors platform, while Colliers Italy adds another market leader to our strong company-owned services business in Europe. And yesterday, we completed the previously announced acquisition of Bergmann, which provides additional scale and further diversifies our rapidly growing Engineering and Design business.The bottom line is this. Colliers continues to seize opportunities and to think differently as we lead our company and our industry into the future. We are one of the top global players in the business with a global brand and platform, second to none. And we have a highly diversified business model, diversified by revenue, by client, by asset class and by geography. And we're also more resilient than ever with more than 50% of our revenues coming from higher value recurring revenue streams. With our proven track record of more than 26 years, unique enterprising culture, differentiated and diversified business model and significant inside ownership, Colliers is better positioned than ever to continue to create value for its shareholders one step at a time. Now let me turn things over to Christian for comment. Christian?

[Christian Mayer, Chief Financial Officer]

Thank you, Jay. As announced earlier today, Colliers reported strong third quarter financial results. My comments follow the flow of the slides posted on the Investor Relations section of colliers.com to accompany this call. Please note that the non-GAAP measures referenced on this call are as defined in the press release issued today. All references to revenue growth are expressed in local currency. Third quarter 2021 revenues were $1.02 billion, up 46% relative to the prior year period with continued momentum from earlier quarters. Revenues were up strongly across all service lines, particularly Capital Markets and Investment Management. Growth for the quarter was virtually all internally generated. Compared to 2019, pre-pandemic levels, capital markets revenues were up 34% and leasing was up 8%, with office leasing recovering to within 5% of 2019 levels.Our Q3 consolidated adjusted EBITDA was $124 million, up 32% from $92 million reported 1 year ago. with margins at 12.1% versus 13.3% in the prior year quarter. Our margin was impacted by performance-based incentive compensation, the reinstatement of variable costs and higher support staffing costs, all due to the strong rebound in transaction activity levels. Americas Q3 revenues were up were $617 million, up 45% over the prior year period. Capital Markets revenues were up 92%, driven by significant increases in industrial and multifamily sales transaction activity. Leasing revenues were up 34%, largely due to stronger industrial and office leasing activity across the region versus the prior year period. Office leasing activity showed steady improvement in Q3, although remained below pre-pandemic levels. Outsourcing & Advisory revenues were up 24%, driven by strong internal growth in Engineering and Design, Valuation and Mortgage services.Adjusted EBITDA for the region was $66 million, up 20% from last year, with the margin impacted by performance-based incentive compensation from strong year-over-year growth in operating results. The reinstatement of certain variable costs and higher support staffing costs. Third quarter EMEA revenues were $155 million, up 29%. So with strong revenue increases in each service line, particularly leasing and capital markets. Adjusted EBITDA for the region was $15 million, up from $8 million last year on higher revenues and continued savings from pandemic-related cost measures. In the Asia Pacific region, third quarter revenues were $172 million, up 51% relative to the prior year period, with all service lines reporting robust growth led by capital markets and leasing.On a geographic basis, growth was led by Australia, New Zealand and China. Adjusted EBITDA was $21 million compared to $13 million last year with the increase attributable to operating leverage and continued cost management in light of the pandemic. Certain parts of Australia, New Zealand and Japan were under pandemic stay-at-home orders during the quarter, which made our operating results all the more impressive.Investment Management revenues were $78 million, up 87% versus the prior year period. After eliminating the impact of pass-through carried interest, revenues were up 50%, driven by management fee growth. Assets under management were $46 billion at quarter end, up 27% from 1 year ago and reflected another record quarter of fundraising following on the record capital commitments achieved in the first and second quarters. Adjusted EBITDA for the quarter was $28 million up from $15 million generated in the prior year period, reflecting solid operating leverage on incremental management fee revenue.Our consolidated operating cash flow for the first 9 months of 2021 was $211 million. However, adjusting for the nonrecurring cash component of the LTIA settlement. Cash flow was [indiscernible], almost triple the $104 million generated in the same period in 2020. [indiscernible] by a combination of higher earnings and a reduction of working capital usage, which was elevated during the pandemic last year. Capital expenditures for the 9 months ended September 30, 2021, were $4 million, a significant increase from the prior year and reflected in investments in leaseholds in several markets including certain markets where we deferred relocations and expansions during the pandemic. For the full year 2021, we expect CapEx to be in the range of $55 million to $60 million. Almost 1/3 of this CapEx will be landlord-funded leasehold improvements, reducing the net cash capital expenditures to approximately $40 million.Turning to our debt capital structure. Our leverage ratio defined as net debt to pro forma adjusted EBITDA was 0.5x at September 30, 2021. After quarter end, we issued $300 million in U.S. and euro-denominated senior notes due 2031 and paid down our revolving credit facility in full. As a result, we now have well over $1 billion of liquidity available to fund future acquisitions and ongoing operations. In addition to this liquidity, our capital structure has low leverage, low borrowing rates, and latter debt maturities extending to 2031. With all this in place, we believe we are perfectly positioned to execute on our Enterprise '25 growth plan.Given the strong results reported for Q3 and continued momentum, we are updating and increasing our financial outlook for the full year 2021. We now expect to exceed the top end of the previous outlook. We expect that adjusted EBITDA could be 40% to 45% above 2020 levels. The new outlook includes 2 months of the Bergmann acquisition completed yesterday and is subject to the risks and uncertainties as outlined in the accompanying slides. That concludes my prepared remarks. I would now like to open the call for questions. Operator, can you please open the line?

[Operator]

[Operator Instructions] Our first question comes from the line of Stephen MacLeod with BMO Capital Markets.

[Stephen MacLeod, Analyst]

I just had a couple of questions that I wanted to follow up on. Specifically around the operating costs, I mean I know the operating costs came down a lot through the pandemic. And previously question, you've given numbers around sort of where you are on a run rate basis. Can you talk about how many of those -- how much of those costs have actually come back into the system?

[Christian Mayer, Chief Financial Officer]

Yes, Stephen, I think the majority of the costs are back in the system, particularly in the Americas. As we saw. The EMEA and Asia Pac regions are still benefiting from some of those operating cost reductions. And you can see that in the margin in the quarter. We've made, I think, a very prudent -- we've managed very prudently over the past 1.5 years. and we're trying to remain disciplined as possible in terms of returning cost to the system as we emerge from the pandemic.

[Stephen MacLeod, Analyst]

Great. That's helpful. And then my second question, I just wanted to -- it's more a high level here. You released your 5-year plan last week, which is another great -- has a great 5-year outlook. And I'm just wondering if you can talk a little bit about sort of some of the key drivers that may lead you to potentially outperform that 5-year outlook? And where you're seeing the majority of growth when you think about doubling EBITDA over that time period?

[Jay Stewart Hennick, Global Chairman & CEO]

Well, first of all, we think it's an ambitious plan over the next 5 years, and we think it speaks for itself. Steve, you've been with us for a long time. We've done this 2 or 3 times in the past, and there's a lot of rigor that goes around the plan. And we're pleased that we're able to issue it now. We would have normally issued it earlier, given the pandemic. We slowed the ball down a little bit. But I think we have a very clear path on growing internally and through acquisition. We are going to -- differently than in the past, we are going to be more strategic around the additions that we make to our business, focusing on more recurring and long-duration revenue streams because we think that it enhances the value of our overall company. We have not -- and I think our peers are in the same boat we have not been particularly pleased with the market valuation of companies in our sector, and believe that part of the reason for that is the less or lower level of recurring revenue streams.And as you can see, over the past 2 years, ours has elevated considerably. And if we continue to do that, we're hoping that in addition to driving great results operationally we can also attract a better valuation for a great global business with unlimited growth opportunities. We just see so many ways to grow this business and having a global platform allows us to do that very well in the coming years.

[Stephen MacLeod, Analyst]

That's great color, Jay. and then maybe just finally, with respect to the Engineering & Design business, you cited it as a good contributor to this year -- this quarter's Americas Americas growth. And I'm just wondering what you're seeing in terms of engagements in the pipeline in that business?

[Jay Stewart Hennick, Global Chairman & CEO]

The pipelines have been higher than prior year. And one of the benefits of continuing to grow the business is that you add credibility, you add disciplines, you add additional service potential to the business. So we believe the addition of Bergmann will open up some existing doors within the Colliers Engineering & Design business and vice versa. And so we're seeing or expect to see the pipelines grow for that reason, but also with all of the stimulus discussions that you're reading about in the paper virtually in every country, in every budget, we believe that we are going to be a beneficiary of that as we move forward.

[Operator]

Our next question comes from the line of Stephen Sheldon with William Blair.

[Stephen Hardy Sheldon, Analyst]

I guess just first, relative to what you were previously expecting with your guidance, what have been the biggest surprises on the way things have progressed over the last 2 to 3 months, especially across the different service lines and then also across the geographies?

[Christian Mayer, Chief Financial Officer]

Stephen, we have, as you know, a pretty good visibility on the recurring revenue side of our business. So not any significant surprises there. But certainly, on the transactional side, we have been continuing to see very strong capital markets activity and a rebound in leasing activity, industrial leasing, office leasing stronger than expected. When we sat here 3 months ago, certainly. So those have been very strong contributors to our performance.

[Stephen Hardy Sheldon, Analyst]

Got it. That's helpful. And then I just wanted to ask about the labor supply challenges out there. Is that a notable headwind as you think about this quarter? Or I guess, could it become more of one as you think about the next few quarters? Would love to just get your thoughts on that topic.

[Christian Mayer, Chief Financial Officer]

Yes, it's definitely an issue that we are noticing. There are more broad economic and, I guess, demographic, social trends post-pandemic that are happening. So there are elevated levels of turnover across all sectors of the economy and in the professional services sector as well, and that does affect our employee base. we're managing as best we can through that. But it has not had a material impact on our business to date. Although when you think about some of our professionals, it's difficult to recruit engineers and project managers and those types of folks. So one of our -- the biggest factors constraining our growth will be the recruitment of those types of professionals going forward because the -- certainly, as Jay mentioned, the pipelines are very strong, and business activity is going to be very strong. It's a matter of getting the staff to complete those assignments.

[Jay Stewart Hennick, Global Chairman & CEO]

I'd add something else, Stephen. As you know, a lot of our business is performance-driven. And our people are generally paid at the higher levels of compensation scale. When you're in the business of janitorial and other markets like that where you're a duty bound to provide a whole bunch of low-level employees to a building, it's a serious. There's a serious gap in providing those services. So I think we are -- everybody is impacted. But I think we are -- our structure at Colliers and our focus on higher value services has really held us in good stead versus others who are duty bound to be providing thousands and thousands and thousands of low-level employees on the building side.

[Operator]

Our next question comes from the line of Daryl Young with TD Securities.

[Daryl Young, Mining Research Associate]

Just with respect to the 5-year plan, I'm just wondering if there's a focus embedded in there on returning to some of the gateway cities. I know you've been somewhat over-indexed to the secondary markets historically. But just wondering if that's a core part of the plan going forward.

[Jay Stewart Hennick, Global Chairman & CEO]

It always is. We do it market for market. Where do we have gaps? Where is their growth opportunities? Where can we top-grade our people to perhaps generate better returns? And the other thing that we're in the early stages of, and I think it's very exciting, is across market opportunities and how do we best cover clients that our multimarket clients globally, nationally, regionally. And we've made great progress there. But I think we've got a lot of room to grow in our Occupier Services business, in Capital Markets, in our Debt Capital markets. It's the same groups of clients that are operating in the United States and Europe in a variety of other markets. and how best to cover those occupiers, how best to cover those investors in real estate is an opportunity and a big gap for all of the players in this industry. And we see a big opportunity there.

[Daryl Young, Mining Research Associate]

Okay, good. And then just thinking about the growth in that strategy. You've historically had a really nicely balanced organic and M&A mix. Would you see more M&A going forward or M&A contributing a greater proportion of the growth in this next 5-year plan than historical?

[Jay Stewart Hennick, Global Chairman & CEO]

I think maybe that's a fair comment. Not materially different, but I think it is different. And as we've grown and matured and become really global in our M&A activities, one of our competitive advantages is our great leadership teams around the world, and they are actively looking market for market to to accelerate their own growth and meet their own 5-year plans. And they're all heavily incentivized to do that. So more so than ever. So I think M&A will play a bigger role in the execution of our 5-year plan, yes.

[Daryl Young, Mining Research Associate]

Okay. Perfect. And then one just last one on margins. In the quarter, was there anything unique in terms of incentive rules or anything that would have pushed margins down further? Or is this sort of more of the run rate going forward now that all the discretionary costs have come back? And then we would see kind of margins grind higher over the next couple of years?

[Christian Mayer, Chief Financial Officer]

Look, Daryl, our incentive plans are based on year-over-year EBITDA growth. And because of the low base from 2020, the accrual this year are elevated. The plans haven't changed. It's just the baseline is lower in the growth this year. is higher. And you're seeing that in the results. And there were no bonuses paid last year to anyone. In fact, people [indiscernible] pick us last year when we were in the depths of the pandemic. So going forward, those kind of accruals in 2022 will be less as things return to more normal growth conditions. This year, we're just seeing the impact of the elevated level of growth year-over-year.

[Daryl Young, Mining Research Associate]

Congrats on good results.

[Jay Stewart Hennick, Global Chairman & CEO]

Thanks.

[Operator]

Our next question comes from the line of Frederic Bastien with Raymond James.

[Frederic Bastien, MD & Equity Research Analyst]

The EBITDA you generated by investment management represented a step change over what what we've seen in the past. Now given your successes in fundraising and also the acquisition that you're hoping to close early next year, how should we think about the segment's performance over the next 4, 5 quarters?

[Jay Stewart Hennick, Global Chairman & CEO]

Well, as you probably know, it's all a function of capital raised. And about half the business currently is open-ended funds. So there's very, very great consistency quarter-over-quarter depending upon how much money is deployed. And as we raise additional opportunistic funds, it also drives the revenue and because it's a high-margin business, the EBITDA up as well. So I think as long as we continue to raise capital, and we're hitting new records for the organization. It bodes well for continued increases in revenue and EBITDA in that segment.

[Frederic Bastien, MD & Equity Research Analyst]

Okay. But if I just straight line the quarterly performance, you're now over $100 million in EBITDA annually. Is that a fair kind of run rate that we should be thinking about with added growth?

[Christian Mayer, Chief Financial Officer]

There is one point I should make here Fred before I jump to that conclusion. And that is that we completed fundraising for one of our opportunistic funds. Fund VIII during the quarter. So when that happens, there are management fees that are earned going back to the first close, which was in Q4 of 2020. So there was a very pronounced -- more pronounced amount of management fee earned in the third quarter because of that inflation, the catch-up fees and the situation of that fundraise activity. So I think while the growth trajectory is going to be very strong. I would not, at this point, straight line year projections. The growth will occur on a more normalized slope.

[Frederic Bastien, MD & Equity Research Analyst]

Okay. Awesome. Thanks for that clarification. Switching gears to Colliers Engineering & Design. Is the focus over the next 5 years to gain continued mass, critical mass in the U.S.? Or do you see this business potentially extending its footprint to other regions like...

[Jay Stewart Hennick, Global Chairman & CEO]

Yes, it's very much a growth story. We have great critical mass on the East Coast of the U.S. So there's lots of opportunity in the U.S. But we believe that we -- it fits beautifully within what we do at Colliers. We are being approached by other engineering firms around the world that are intrigued by the unique partnership philosophy that we offer. And so I wouldn't be surprised over the 5-year plan that you would see engineering continue to accelerate its growth in other regions around the world. under a brand that's truly a global and institutionally recognized brand, which is becoming more and more helpful with clients around the world.

[Frederic Bastien, MD & Equity Research Analyst]

Great. Last one for me, Christian. Can you repeat where you expect to end the year in terms of EBITDA growth? My line cut off when you said that?

[Christian Mayer, Chief Financial Officer]

Yes. So we expect to exceed the top end of our previous outlook. And in terms of EBITDA, that could be in the 40% to 45% range relative to 2020.

[Operator]

Our next question comes from the line of George Doumet with Scotiabank.

[George Doumet, Analyst]

I think last call, you guys mentioned that office leasing was down 29% from pre-pandemic levels. Do you have a number as to where we are today? Maybe some color there, Jay, as to when you expect or maybe you can possibly see that number surpass pandemic overall? Any color on that office category.

[Christian Mayer, Chief Financial Officer]

Yes. George, I think if I -- you're fading in a little bit on the call, but I think if I hear your question right, you're asking about office leasing. And yes, it was down significantly versus prior levels in Q2. In Q3, office leasing had recovered to defend 5% of 2019 levels, if that answers your question.

[George Doumet, Analyst]

Yes. And would you expect that to maybe surpass those levels next year? Any thoughts there?

[Christian Mayer, Chief Financial Officer]

Well, we certainly are optimistic that, that will occur. We don't know what the timing of that's going to be. But certainly, next year is within reason that we will see to see the full rebound in office leasing around the road.

[George Doumet, Analyst]

Okay. And I think earlier, you mentioned that operational costs were back in the Americas. But I believe prior to the pandemic, there was a plan to to improve those margins in the Americas by 250-plus basis points. So I'm just wondering how much of that is left? Maybe how much of that is baked into our 5-year plan? And maybe you can provide on maybe timing there.

[Christian Mayer, Chief Financial Officer]

Yes, George, as I mentioned, the elevated operating costs in the third quarter are a function of the year-over-year performance-based incentives that are very very strong, very high this year, given the low base last year. As we look ahead for the next 5 years, we certainly expect margin enhancement, modest enhancement each year in the Americas region as we become more efficient, as we execute on some of our operating plans.

[George Doumet, Analyst]

Okay. And just one last one, if I may. Looking at the 5-year plan we have, what's baked in for organic revenue growth for the transactional business, excluding this year's recovery. So just kind of wondering maybe on a more normalized basis. So maybe from next year, onwards to 2025. How should we think about organic growth for that business line?

[Christian Mayer, Chief Financial Officer]

George, it will be in the low to mid-single digits range for the transactional business. And that's consistent with where our expectations in our last 5-year plan. Certainly, we hope we can exceed that. But that's the thinking in the plan.

[Operator]

[Operator Instructions] Our next question comes from the line of Scott Fromson with CIBC.

[Scott Douglas Fromson]

Just wondering, are you seeing market share gains in any particular regions or business lines?

[Jay Stewart Hennick, Global Chairman & CEO]

I think we're seeing market share gains all over the place. When we look at our peers' results and we see market comps, we're -- we continue to take share. Our revenues are up significantly, as you heard in most markets. But in this business, it's always about market for market and some markets that used to be strong, are not as strong for a variety of reasons. And it's a constant battle to top grade our professionals and to ensure that we get our fair share and hopefully more. But I would say market share continues to grow. And brand, the quality of the brand continues to get enhanced. We hear constantly from clients that they're using Colliers more and more. And I think some of our more sophisticated service lines, investment management, our debt capital operations have all helped to elevate the stature of the Colliers brand in markets all around the world.

[Scott Douglas Fromson]

Does this also reflect the composition of the buyers and sellers or maybe in other words, are you seeing more activity from global investors?

[Jay Stewart Hennick, Global Chairman & CEO]

Global investors are way more active and the opportunity to take a Canadian global investor to a different market is bigger today than ever before. So capital flows market for market. It was sort of a comment I made earlier today. We see it as a big opportunity, a big white space for us and probably for most of our peers because I think capital flows today market for market are way more than ever before.

[Operator]

Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Matt Logan with RBC Capital Markets.

[Matt Logan, Analyst]

Jay. Since this will be my last conference call, I'm wondering if you could humor me and talk about some of the lessons you've learned, building successful companies over the past 25 years and how these lessons will help you achieve your ambitious 2025 targets?

[Jay Stewart Hennick, Global Chairman & CEO]

Well, that's loaded. That's loaded. You have an hour? Look, look, I think it all comes down to culture. And one of the things that we've been able to accomplish both in the other company, FirstService and Colliers, is a unique operating culture that's very, very hard to replicate. And we have exceptional teams of people. In the case of Colliers, they're global, they're placed globally. They have compensation systems that pay them handsomely for delivering handsome results. And all of these types and our way of operating is very entrepreneurial. So it attracts the kinds of people that want to make a difference and don't just want to punch a clock and move the chairs around on the Titanic. So I think that it's culture more than anything else that makes the difference. And if I were buying -- if I were in the business of allocating capital to public companies, I think it all comes down to the culture of the ethos of the company and how they've delivered over a lot of years. And we're very proud of our performance and continue to believe that our culture will sustain us over our 5-year plan and beyond.

[Matt Logan, Analyst]

Agreed. And turning to your recurring services, one thing one I don't think gets enough credit is the quality of your EBITDA. Can you remind us what the organic growth was for the outsourcing and advisory business in 2020 as well as the Investment Management segment?

[Jay Stewart Hennick, Global Chairman & CEO]

We'll get you those numbers right now.

[Matt Logan, Analyst]

Or maybe looking forward, how you expect the organic growth for outsourcing and invest management will trend over the next couple of years?

[Christian Mayer, Chief Financial Officer]

Yes. I mean, Matt, the organic growth in the outsourcing advisory and the IM business were in the high single digits. I don't have the number directly in front of us right now, but but certainly strong organically in 2020. And as it relates to Enterprise '25, we have high expectations for those businesses, high single digits or better. And due to a number of factors, our Engineering & Design business is a business that operates in a sector where there are tremendous tailwinds, infrastructure spending and development. Our investment management business is very well situated with its focus on alternatives, alternative assets and real assets. And that, we think is going to translate into outsized growth. as well. Mortgage is an area we got into last year, again, high opportunities there for growth as we are successful in integrating it into Colliers and increasing the amount of transaction flow that we were able to put through that very strong multifamily channel that we have. So we feel very -- in summary, we feel very good about prospects in our outer advisory and IM businesses for the next 5 years.

[Jay Stewart Hennick, Global Chairman & CEO]

Just looking at outsourcing and advisory this year, year-to-date, all internal growth, it's up 32%. That includes engineering and design acquisitions. Yes. But even in [indiscernible], the engineering acquisition was modest you just did the Bergmann one. So anyway, it's significant and growing much faster than the other areas. But I'm glad you pointed it out.

[Matt Logan, Analyst]

Great color, guys. Jay, earlier, you had mentioned Bergmann opening doors. Can you talk about how Bergmann and the interior acquisitions are kind of a 1 plus 1 equals 3 scenario? And how that relates to driving cross-sell opportunities across the business.

[Jay Stewart Hennick, Global Chairman & CEO]

Well, they're really different. Bergmann is in our Engineering & Design segment and that is a business all about continuing to do more for clients. And if you have the credibility in one segment of an engineering practice, it's often a great segue into offering more services. And especially when Colliers is also involved in the acquisition of the land or in the project management of a project surrounding the client around our various services helps. Antirion is really in addition to our European investment management platform, which we are trying to grow. It's a small business right now, obviously, relative to Harrison Street. And this is an exceptional operator who we've known for many years because he is actually also the owner of Colliers Italy, the services business. And so we've watched him grow this business over the past 15 years, one step at a time and believe that this is a natural addition to our business and will only strengthen it. So having relationships with multiple LPs, multiple investors and having probably most importantly, a great track record of delivering returns to these investors all helps to allow us to continue to raise additional capital as real estate opportunities present themselves. And I would say that it's more competitive out there for real estate, traditional real estate asset opportunities than ever before, but our teams are up for that.

[Matt Logan, Analyst]

And maybe one last question for me before I turn it back. You've got a lot of white space in your business. If there's one vertical that you're not in currently that you could see yourself entering over the next 5 years, what would that be?

[Jay Stewart Hennick, Global Chairman & CEO]

Well, we have -- we think we've got a full plate with our existing verticals we have so much runaway room everywhere. I think that in our 5-year plan, one assumption is that in year 4 or year 5 we bring on another platform. We have some ideas around some that might make some sense for us but that's well down the list. Right now, we just want to -- we like our balance of our business across the board. And what we really want to do is continue to double and triple the size of these opportunities because we have great leadership in place. We know how to integrate them well. We think we can buy them well and our unique partnership philosophy helps us I think, grow and find the right business is better than most.

[Christian Mayer, Chief Financial Officer]

Matt, congratulations on your new role, and I wish you all the best in the future.

[Jay Stewart Hennick, Global Chairman & CEO]

Sure, Matt. You've done a great job for us. Thank you.

[Matt Logan, Analyst]

Appreciate it, guys.

[Jay Stewart Hennick, Global Chairman & CEO]

Operator, are there any more questions. If there are no more questions, we will say thank you, everyone, for participating and look forward to the next conference call. Thank you.

[Operator]

I'm showing no other questions in the queue. I would now like to turn the call back over to Jay for closing remarks.