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Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and thank you for standing by. Welcome to the Interim Report January-March 2019 Conference Call. [Operator Instructions] I must advise you that this conference is being recorded today, on Friday, the 17th of May, 2019. I'd now like to hand the conference over to your presenter today, Thomas Heath. Please go ahead.
Thank you very much. Welcome everyone to this Q1 2019 Conference Call with Sinch. My name is Thomas Heath, I'm Chief Strategy Officer and Head of Investor relations. With me in the room today, I have our CEO, Oscar Werner; and our CFO, Roshan Saldanha. So welcome everyone and with that, I'll hand the word over to Oscar.
All right. This is Oscar Werner, and welcome to this Quarter's Q1 presentation. So without further ado, let's start. So first, Sinch, just to position what we do, many of you have heard this before, but I just have one slide of this so we position ourselves. So we deliver customer engagement for enterprises to consumers via mobile technology, and we have a cloud communication platform to do this via messaging, via voice and via video. And what passionates me about this market is that it has a 100% consumer penetration, and I've yet to find one single adult person that has not used this type of services. So I think we all have received an appointment from our dentist or a reminder from an airline, or getting the ticket from somewhere, or we have called Uber, or we have called our doctor via a video message. So that fascinates me that it has so high degree of penetration. And I think that's the same in any country that I go to across the globe. This means that this is a growing, and it's a global and it's a multibillion-dollar market. So we are truly in a market where you can sell to in any country that our customers, and a very large amount of enterprises can be customers, and it's a growing lot market. One thing that sticks out about Sinch, but not the only thing, but it's -- we serve the 8 out of the 10 of the largest U.S. tech companies. Around about 5 of those are live with significant traffic, and we are working on the others. And -- but we have -- given that we have a highly scalable platform, we have managed to win and keep some of the -- or the largest customers on the planet here, and that's probably where we stand out the most. We also deliver software for mobile operators based on the same underlying platforms. We have a very deep technical competence all the way up from the enterprise down to the operator network. Right, next slide, please. Growth markets. Just to make this point again, we have showed this slide before but messaging, which is our core market, as you've seen, we have changed the report a little bit, we talk about messaging, we talk about voice and video, and we talk about the operator segments. And on this slide, to shorten it a little bit, we only talk about messaging and CPaaS. And -- but the messaging market is a large market, you can pick a number of different reports. We used to think that Mobilesquared has a good estimate of this market. They estimate this market to be $17 billion round about, but you can find estimates from $15 billion to $50 billion. And the reason for the size is, firstly, text messaging has been extremely effective, reaches everybody in the world, in a very cost effective manner and has a very high open rate. And now the growth is very much driven by the new messaging formats, making it possible to some more advanced forms of messaging to your consumers. On the CPaaS side, this can be interpreted as the software layer on top of the termination fees on top of the message you send. That part of the market is growing very fast. You can -- market estimates range between 35% and round about 60% CAGR. So that part of the market is growing very fast. And this is basically all the software value add that you can add on top of just sending a message for an enterprise. So all in all, global market, large market and a growth market in many segments, and certain segments grow faster than others.All right. Next slide, please. So then, looking at the quarter results. In Q1 2019, so we had a strong gross profit growth of 45%, getting up to SEK 289.5 million. And as you know, we focus primarily on gross profit that's what we think is our value add. We had adjusted EBITDA rising to SEK 112 million, which is round about a 73% growth since last -- on a yearly basis. And we have an adjusted EBIT, if we exclude acquisition-related amortization of SEK 102 million and profit after tax of SEK 57.8 million. We have rising gross profit and EBITDA in all business units, and we have organic growth, both from -- both organic and from acquired businesses. And we also say that we are continuing our investments to capture new market growth opportunities in the new markets. We see a technology shift in the market and that we see the market going from -- can you imagine it being 160 characters text messages to almost being able to send an app-like experience to your inbox.That obviously drives the market growth opportunity. You can imagine being at an airport, instead of just getting a reminder for your flight is delayed, you get a message, which behaves like an app, stating your flight is delayed. These are your 3 options for rebooking, press this button and you can rebook. And by the way, here's the voucher, so you can get a free meal. That's a better experience for you, and it's a cost saver for the airline. That obviously becomes much better service, but it also takes a bit more software and a different go-to-market model in order to approach the customers with that type of service. So therefore, we are investing in positioning ourselves for the growth opportunities that we see are coming. Good. Next slide. So if you then look at our 3 segments that you see we have organized the report around, we have the messaging segments, we have the voice and video segments and we have the operator segment. If we start with messaging, we see rising messaging volumes, and this is driven by a couple of different factors, partly it is U.S. big tech companies is fueling a strong growth in this area. We managed to be a partner to the biggest companies in the world, and therefore, we do see strong growth driven by those companies. We also see a very high demand for our personalized video services. So that is basically sending video messages directly to inbox, personalized to your own preference. This is driven by the acquisition we did with Vehicle, and we see strong growth for that. We also see positive currency effects in this quarter, which is giving us a tailwind here, which is affecting growth in a positive way. And again, we are investing in the next generation messaging and next generation technologies. All right, next slide. On the volume side, we do see a rising number of transactions in -- on the [ term breaks ], we're going both with existing customers, with new customers and new use cases. And we are seeing a 13% organic growth in number of transactions in local currencies, and a 15% in an organic growth in both the currencies and gross profit. So we're seeing those following each other and in a good way, and we're happy with that growth. Next slide. Gross profit per transaction is something that is very important for us, and so looking at all times, looking at how much value add do we make per transaction. So here we are -- here we're trading, both the gross profit per transaction and the OpEx per transaction. And what you can see here on the slide is that the gross profit per transaction depends on the mix of the terminating markets, where are we terminating. It also depends on how much value add are we adding per transaction. So in the personalized video case, we're adding a lot more value add and a lot more software on top. And that's something that -- so that gives us a higher gross margin per -- gross profit per transaction. And that's something we're consistently working on, and across our business units to add more value in software on top of the message transmission. And we're also seeing here a currency tailwind, which is increasing growth profit per transaction. And you can, in this graph, also see that we're doing investments for the future on the OpEx side, but that's following the gross profit increase relatively nicely in this slide.Okay, next slide. We have the messaging EBITDA per gross profit, it's a very key metric for us. We see that for every gross profit dollar or crown that we generate, we generate a EBITDA of roughly 45% and that's been stable. So we're following this graph, and we want to be a highly profitable company and generate a lot of cash flow. That's core to our strategy. And therefore, we manage this graph carefully. And in this quarter, as you've seen the gross profit rise and we also see investments rise, in order to position ourselves for the future, and therefore, we have managed to keep this graph stable.All right, next slide. As we have reported in previous quarters, we have strong momentum on the voice and video side, and that has continued during this quarter. So we had a really good Q4 and the Q1 is on the gross profit and revenue side, even better. And growth fueled by the number masking service that we do for ride hailing and also the verification services that we do. Here we're working with key operators of our service in more markets and in the markets where we see demand. As you can imagine, in this type of hyper-growth situation, it is a lot of work to scale the systems, have the systems in order, keep up the good quality for customers, et cetera. So it's a lot of hard work in this area that we're doing in order to keep this type of growth. But we're very, very, happy to see that the turn to profit has continued on the voice and video side that we saw in Q4 and that's continuing out in Q1. Final [indiscernible] and then focusing on stabilizing and setting this business up for -- on a higher level.All right, next slide. Also very happy to see the improved conversion to orders in the Operator business. So we had a couple of quarters with -- weaker quarters in operators. And now we're seeing that we have a stronger pipeline and also a stronger conversion of pipeline or sales orders in the operator business. So super happy to see that, and you can see in the results in Q1.This, as you know, it's a business that does fluctuate depending on where those projects -- when those projects actually come in and when do we -- when can we report them as profits. But it is a strong trend in the pipe. We also see the partnership with Erickson. We see that generating a lot of sales to us, which is very positive. As you note, during the quarter, we also announced that we will target operators with an RCS as a service offering. That is basically enabling operators to offer RCS services to enterprises, and we're doing that from the Operator business. And then, as in the enterprise business, we are -- we're then enabling the enterprises. There is no impact of that initiative in this quarter's results on the revenue side and that's a future investment. But we see a strong pipe and a strong demand for operators on that side as well.So all in all, we have the U.S. big tech driving growth, we have personalized video driving growth, we have voice and video driving growth, and we have operator driving growth, and we also have a currency tailwind in this quarter. And if you take that altogether, we have a very strong quarter, and we're super happy with that. And that's how it becomes when all the major areas we focus on go in the right direction, you have that type of strong quarter. So we have 2 of those now, which we're very proud over, and we're very happy to see those results. That said, I'm going to leave over to Roshan, to go a little bit deeper into the financials. So Roshan, please.
Thank you, Oscar. Good morning and hello to all of you on the call. It's a pleasure to present the Sinch's Financial Results for the First Quarter 2019, very strong set of results that we can talk about today. On slide 12, called continued high gross profit growth, you'll find the bridge explaining our gross profit development. A significant part of our revenues are passed on as cost of goods to mobile operators. We pay them to send our messages and place -- our customers' messages and place calls. But the rates they charge very greatly between markets. Since past 2 revenues did not contribute to our profits, we focus almost exclusively on gross profit, when we assess and steer our business. Changes in our gross margin often reflect changes in geographical mix rather than underlying performance or competitiveness. Organic growth and currency affect are hence calculated against an adjusted comparison period in this graph, where we are adding the acquired businesses, Unwire and Vehicle from the first quarter 2018 to our reported Q1 2018 gross profit.Growth in the acquired businesses, Unwire and Vehicle are included in the messaging segment. Consolidated gross profit rose by 45% during the quarter to SEK 289.5 million. Counting from the adjusted base in Q1 2018, which was SEK 225 million, gross profit grew by 28%. Positive exchange rate movements explain 7% of this increase. Organic growth in gross profit in local currency and comparable units was 21%. This change is explained by changes in traffic mix and growth in products with higher gross margin, as Oscar explained, such as personalized video messaging. Moving on. Slide 13, where we summarize the effects of IFRS 16, the New Accounting Standard for leases, which we have implemented from the 1st of January. On our financial results, we have applied a simplified retrospective -- modified retrospective approach to the transition, meaning that the comparative year has not been restated. With the interaction of IFRS 16, lease costs of SEK 6.6 million are now excluded from EBITDA in Q1 2019. These lease costs show up further down in our income statement as amortization. The groups' right of use assets are recognized at cost and are reported, both on the current liabilities and current assets parts of the statement. Here you see, I mean, also net debt increases by SEK 83.8 million due to these reclassification of IFRS 16.Moving on to the next slide, Slide 14 for the condensed income statement. Consolidated net sales grew by 28% in the quarter to SEK 1.1 billion. The growth rate in the quarter was positively affected by the depreciation of Swedish kroner primarily against euro, pound and dollar. Positive currency effect on consolidated net sales was 6%. Besides the currency effects on revenue and COGS, we also have currency effects in our OpEx as a significant portion of our OpEx is related to employees and contractors outside Sweden. Finally, we also have realized and unrealized currency effects on our current assets and current liabilities that affect our income statement.When looking at the individual segments, we saw particularly strong performance in Operator segment, we are now seeing successful conversion of orders to revenue. But bear in mind that revenues and earnings in the Operator segment can vary considerably between quarters. Reported EBIT was SEK 69 million in the quarter versus SEK 20 million last year. We have a new definition of adjusted EBIT from this quarter and going forward. Previously, adjusted EBIT excluded only items affecting comparability, primarily related to one-off items from M&A transactions. From this quarter, adjusted EBIT excludes both items affecting comparability as defined previously and amortization of acquisition related intangible assets since these do not affect cash flow.Adjusted EBIT amounted to SEK 102 million compared to SEK 59 million previous year. Acquisition-related amortization, which does not affect cash flow reduced EBIT by SEK 33 million. The amortization relates mainly to plan the amortization of acquired brand customer and operator relationships as well as software. Please turn to Slide 15 for the cash flow statement. Cash flow from operating activities was SEK 38 million. Cash flow in relation to operating profit fluctuates from quarter-to-quarter because many of our customers maximize their liquidity by postponing payments to suppliers. Actual customer losses remain low, and cash flow in relation to operating profit is slightly improving over time. Net debt amounted to SEK 484 million, down from SEK 547 million a year ago. The implementation of IFRS 16 on 1st of January, 2019, increased the company's net debt by SEK 83 million. Net debt-to-EBITDA was 1.2, down from 1.9 a year ago with the previous accounting principles before IFRS 16, the ratio would have been 1.0.Finally, on the financial targets, just summarizing our financial targets. The financial targets of the company are unchanged from what we have previously stated, where we aim to grow adjusted EBITDA per share by 20% per year and maintain net debt below 2.5x adjusted EBITDA over time. Measured on a rolling 12-month basis, we grew adjusted EBITDA per share by 45% at the end of first quarter 2019. Net debt-to-EBITDA was 1.2, down from 1.9 a year ago, with the earlier accounting principles, as I said before, the ratio would have been 1.0. With that, I would like to hand back over to Oscar to summarize today's presentation.
All right. Thank you, Roshan. So to summarize, I mean, we're obviously seeing a strong quarter. We're obviously seeing the majority of our businesses doing well. And when those are impacting well at the same quarter and in the same direction, all of them, we have very strong quarter. The big ticket items are we have strong pipeline and performance for the U.S.-based tech companies, considerable interest and revenue growth in personalized video, strong pipeline and growth in voice and video and strong pipeline and growth on the Operator business in this quarter. And we also see -- on the future side, we also see, we're doing investments on the rich media, the conversational messaging. So we're seeing a shift in the market, we're seeing market growth opportunities, which are large. And therefore, we think it's very, very important to position ourselves for growth. So therefore, we take, as you can see in our numbers, we take relatively large investments in those areas. But as long as we can grow the gross profit in the way we do today, I mean that has -- we continue to do good profits of course. We're generally very positive to the market growth, and we're very positive to the market outlook. And we -- so positive market growth, positive market outlook. And the key thing for us now is to really positon ourselves into the new form upstart coming because we think that will drive this market growth and our own growth in many years going forward. With that said, I will leave it over to questions.
[Operator Instructions] And your first question comes from the line of Staffan Aberg from Carnegie.
So the organic growth within the messaging division was 14% in Q1. And you state now that the key driver for this growth was the U.S. tech companies. So now excluding this group of clients, what would you roughly estimate the organic growth to be in Q1 within the messaging division? Is it 10%, flat, or minus 10%?
Thomas here. Thanks for the questions, Staffan. It's correct that the U.S. big tech is an important growth driver for our group. And it's also true that the U.S. market as a whole is an important growth driver. We see significantly higher growth rates in the U.S. than we do in other parts of the world. It's an advanced market and where we perform very well. We also built, purposefully built up a strong position as one of very few amount of global competitors who can take on really large global deals, and so these very large customers. As I'm afraid, I can't go into much more details than that other than to say that's an important source of growth. Both today, and we expect also the future, there's a lot of value we can bring to these companies. And that journey is only started.
Okay, another question then. We've been talking back and forth about the RCS potential. And we've been talking about that for a while now, but it seems like it's always pushed forward a little bit. But now surely, after recent launches, you must have a better view of when the meaningful volumes might start to come? Or do you see still see a risk of further postponements?
First, it depends on how you see risk. And I believe, and then I think a lot of us believe after I've been in this -- in the tech space for a long time, the rate or the time that it takes for a change to impact is always longer than you think. But the impact is always -- almost always larger than you think. So I think all of these new messaging formats are, it will take time and the primary driver or the 2 drivers for it to take time. Part of is it for operators to roll it out, and we can see that any -- in any quarter, in any year, it takes time. They roll it out, and then they roll it out fast, and then there is a problem with this phone, and they need to bring their operability, et cetera. So it will take time for the operators, and they are -- and it typically take a little bit of time for -- to roll out things. And the other things, the other reason it will take time is for enterprises. So for enterprises to really benefit from this type of new messaging formats, it -- they will need to change their processes, they will need to go into the customer journey. And they will need to, oh, suddenly I can re-book my flight via message, how do I do that? How do I integrate that into my system? So it will take time, and I want to be cautious again. I think it will take time before we see significant portions of revenues on the rich messaging formats. On the other hand, we need to be sure to communicate to you now, as for taking the investments now in order to position ourselves. So I believe it will take time, but we're doing investments now, and therefore, we're talking about it. Ideally, I could have waited to talk about it until the revenue came. But then you would wonder why I do the investments. So that's the balance.
That's very clear. And a good bridge to my next and final question. Because you've been talking a lot about the need to reinvest the gains back into your operations, in order to leverage opportunities in the markets, such as RCS. But what exactly are you targeting in your investment plan now? For example, do you have any top 3 areas where you currently want to focus your resources?
All right. I mean, we are -- as you can see in our report, I mean, we have divided the business in messaging, voice and video and operator. The -- by far biggest business for us is messaging. So therefore, our #1 area is various forms of rich messaging formats. RCS is one, but we sometimes focus a little bit too much on that. We think that the OTT channel, such as WhatsApp or Facebook or WeChat or -- they have a same -- from an enterprise perspective, they have a similar characteristic. We as a business, we don't really care, which channel it goes to. They may have different characteristics, but it's like, we see all of those messages, we see them billing one platform to handle all of those types of rich messages, that is the #1. Another area, which we obviously see, is the a personalized video, which is by the way, a form of a rich message or a next-generation message. So when you talked about next-generation message, that's where we see the growth today. That's a portion of rich messaging that's growing very fast. Obviously, we will invest heavily there. Then you see voice and video, we are seeing growth there, so we're investing there. And as you saw, we made a statement in this quarter that we will target operators within RCS as a service, offering, basically enabling operators to offer RCS. Because we see big demand, so that's another investment area. I think that's the main ones, but if you would pick out one, it's the rich messaging area including the personalized video business.
Your next question comes from the line of Daniel Djurberg from Handelsbanken.
Congratulations on a strong report. My first question would be on, we could talk about the RCS again. I guess, you need to connect also to operators in terms of -- to get their APIs with RCS that you have with SMS, I think you have 250 direct connections, et cetera. Do you see this uptick to be in progress with your own plans? Or do you see a risk to miss the potential future RCS raise because of fewer connections, et cetera? That was my first question.
Do we see in line with plans? And as I said before, it's always very hard to make exact plans in the tech industry where and when things will actually hit. I am very confident on the trend as a whole that this will happen, it will drive a lot of head value to enterprises. So I'm very confident on the direction, on where we're going. The exact timing is so hard, it's so hard to judge. And there, we need to continue invest, and we are diligent on it. And on the ability to make money, I assume that's what you are asking, will it become fewer operator connections? And therefore, will it become harder to, as a midman, make money? I assume, that's what you're saying. And I would think that -- I think -- or 2 things that are happening. One, there are multiple technologies rolled out so we have RCS, whether our set of connections fewer than what we have in the investment space. And then you have OTTs, where they are a set of other connections, well again, fewer to WhatsApp, you only need one connection to do the globally. On the other hand, there are multiple WhatsApps and there are multiple different formats. So there are fewer connections which would make it harder to make money as midman. On the other hand, the connections are more different, so the differences in-between them are relatively large. But then you have, on top of this, you have a software layer in order to create this type of more advanced message formats, you need a more advanced software layer, which is countering that, which makes it easier to make money because you provide more value. So all in all, we believe that it's a good market going forward. And we believe that the ability to make -- and to make money going forward is strong. And that's why we're making those investments. And your last part [indiscernible]. Is there risk? There is always risk, of course, [indiscernible] but we believe, we're doing the right investments in order to capture this market.
May I just ask, on the software layer, you talked about -- is that fairly generic? Or is it highly a factor adjusted, what do you do to get good leverage out of them? Investments you do from a leverage point of view?
We think -- it's a good question. And our strategy is to do -- to be a SaaS platform, and then our strategy is to do it cross industry. I wouldn't call it generic, but cross industry, in order to build for scale. I mean we're a scaled business, so we want to be a cross industry and have a SaaS platform for it. And we want to have partners, whether it's resellers or application sellers that do the industry-specific or customers-specific adaptations. So that's our strategy, and that's what we're trying to -- and that's what we are pursuing. And yes, that's our strategy.
May I ask you also on growth potential. We see the PSD2 directive has I guess, started here in Europe. I think one of your U.S. competitor highlighted it as a potential growth trigger. Has -- I guess, you also have quite good strength in the finance sector. Can you comment on this, is it to direct give us a potential volume trigger for in Europe?
So I think you referred to the regulation that asks the banks to send notifications above certain thresholds for transactions. I think you're correct in that this is a potential market driver in that sector. And you're also correct that we have large exposure to financial sector. That said, there are - when you come into a particular use case of some sort, there are multiple technology options. And that varies also geographically, which options are viable and workable for different banks in this instance. I think, yes, this is a potential. We haven't quantified it, we haven't seen it yet, but there is some logic to what you're saying.
Okay. And then a last question here, if I may, to Roshan. It would be on, I might have missed this on the prepared remarks, but on the working capital build, you expand this cash management among customers, mainly I guess. But -- and the specific happenings in Q1, should we expect this to normalize here in terms of DSO coming quarter or we at higher levels of the cost cash management be? They will be more aggressive going forward as well?
Yes. I think, as a general comment, we see enterprises being more tough with sort of how they're managing their own cash, and then we can also see that on the operator side, where we have a large portion of our COGS. But at the same time, I mean, working capital is an item that does tend to swing from positive to negative on a regular basis. And if you look back at our historical results, I think it has been positive development 4 quarters in a row. So this was a swing in the other direction, and I don't think we are ready yet to give you good guidance on sort of how that will develop from quarter-to-quarter. But that will definitely be an ambition to get there.
And given that we are in mid-May now, would you have seen a normalization since late last March?
I think, I mean, again, it's very difficult to stand here and to say exactly how the working capital would look like when we come out with our Q2 results. So I think I can stay with the fact that it can sustain quarter-to-quarter.
[Operator Instructions] Your next question come from the line of Fredrik Lithell from dance Québec.
Congrats for a good report. My first sort of housekeeping question to Roshan is the IFRS 16 SEK 6.6 million in the quarter, is that mostly derived in the enterprise division? That's sort of a small question. For Oscar, the larger question. You stated in the beginning of your prepared remarks that 5 of 8 of 10 largest tech companies, you have significant traffic at 5 of the 8, you have relationship with today. Could you elaborate a little bit on the 5 that you have high traffic today? Do you work with them on sort of new projects? Can you see additional potential deals coming through the next coming, maybe 1, 2, 3 years? Is that something you're running for? And then also, what will it take for the 5 to go to 8? Where are you on that sort of timeline? And can you elaborate a little bit on that?
I can start with the simpler one. Yes, a large portion of that is of course affecting our enterprise business. If you want more details on that, we can take that off-line as well.
And on my question. Yes, we of course, try always to work with our customers to win more projects and win more traffic within any the customer we have. We have a specific focus on these big ones, of course. So we have specific focus to make us more strategic and to understand more what of them does order in them, because there are. I mean these companies are very, very large and you find new departments, not every day but there are, they're very, very large and they have a traffic and opportunities in many, many different places and that's a key strategic focus area of us. So yes, we're [indiscernible]. And yes, there is potential. Is it certain we will win it? No. But that's obviously, what we're working on. Of the ones that are not there, so that's in a mix of being -- well you got to understand the work of these customers. Even if you sign them, there is no commitment ever to, all right, I will give you this much traffic or this is exactly how I'll run it, and then tomorrow they may do something different. So you don't know when the traffic and how much traffic will come. It is only based on your performance. So if you perform well quarter-by-quarter, day-by-day, then you attempt to build a good relationships to them, and you build up traffic volumes. So the ones that we haven't gotten significant traffic may -- with are either in the stage of, do we want to sign them? Or it's in a stage of, having been signed but for various reasons traffic hasn't grown to a significant level yet.
Okay. Yes, I understand, but elaborating on that, the 3 that remains this up to 8 of them. Is it so that you have signed those 3 completely with agreements and you have also done the necessary implementations of technologies. So it's -- the platforms are in place and everything and they are -- they know they can use you and sometimes they maybe try off and -- but it's not really volume. Is that how I should read it?
I think what we've said previously is that of these have 5 and maybe 6, which set meaningful volumes. The remaining ones were in some form of dialogue or commercial relationship where we are working of course, with the ambition to overtime increase volumes. It's a little bit hard to be more specific than that, we're afraid.
We have no further questions.
Okay, to -- as a summary then, I mean, we're very happy to report this type of strong results. It's a quarter where we have a strong tailwind from all of the different areas. We have U.S. big tech, we have personalized video, we have voice and video, and we have the Operator business, and we have the currency tailwind. So all of that all taken together, gives a very strong quarter result. We are proud over that, and we're very happy to be able to report that. And obviously, you know our financial targets. And we continue to work on a long-term basis to reach the financial targets of 20% adjusted EBITDA per share growth. So that's what we're currently doing or working hard to hit on the long run. And going forward, as we have said, this business is good, it's good today, there's a lot of traffic and revenue and opportunity to make money today. As you can see in our figures, it's also a combination of the growth market tomorrow. The big thing there now is to position ourselves to take the growth markets. It requires significant investments, which we're doing. But it's very hard to know exactly when they will hit. But we're very confident on the market, on the investment we're making in the -- it's the right bets exactly timing wise. It's hard to time when it will come. That said, thanks a lot for this call. Thank you very much.
Thank you very much.