Medicover AB

STO:MCOV B

Earnings Call Transcript 2020-Q1

[Operator]

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and thank you for standing by. Welcome to today's Medicover Q1 Trading Update Conference Call. [Operator Instructions]I would like now to hand the conference over to your speaker today, Mr. Fredrik Rågmark. Please go ahead.

[Fredrik Rågmark, CEO & Director]

Hello, everyone, and thank you for joining us for this specific trading update on our quarter one trading. And as you saw, we sent out trading update today morning and on short notice, you could join us. So thank you for that. We are, as the times are dictating, spread over a few different locations here, which we normally are not. So if we sound -- we're asking to flip slides and things like that is because we're not sitting together as times dictate. So I will start off from Slide 3, which Hanna will put up in front of you. And before getting into the specifics of this slide, also just made the oral background that the last trading update you had from us from, of course, this rather perhaps once-in-a-lifetime exceptional impact everyone is experiencing from the COVID-19 crisis. The reason for providing you with this extra update 2.5 weeks just ahead of the regular year -- quarter-end reporting is really that we saw, which we will take you through here today, during the second half of March a more sharper fall off in elective services than what we had envisaged, which then has immediate impacts on quarter 1 trading. Secondly, that same level of activity brings us into April. So we're starting April at a lower activity level versus where we saw that before. And the lockdowns are expected to carry on well into May. So from that perspective, we're looking at a slightly weaker quarter 2 and what we saw a few weeks back. We maintain the same view as previously on the second half 2020 pickup, and we maintain as well our current view on our 3-year targets for the 3-year period. So we're really doing this to, as always, trying to provide the best possible insight and transparency to you all in order to understand and engage what is going on and particularly in these rather unusual times. So if I then go on with the Slide 3, and we have sort of tried to summarize the background here with Medicover and COVID-19. First and foremost, which you hear us say pretty much in every call, is the strength of the diversified funding sources, where, obviously, we are very impacted here on elective services. However, it also shows the strength of the nonelective in our corporate business, where we are largely insulated. So again, the importance of having a diversified funding payer structure.Medicover is a provider of essential services. I cannot stress that enough, how important that is. We are very proactive in the countries where we operate to help unpick the crisis, which largely is about testing, testing, testing and testing. So in pockets of our diagnostics business, we are extremely busy, as we will talk about a bit later on here today, in terms of providing the testing resources and testing capacity to help the different national governments deal with the current crisis. Important to point out is that we expect a strong rebound of service demand once the economies open up. Our people are requesting our services because they have an underlying need. Healthcare-wise, whether that is from a diagnostics perspective or healthcare services perspective, but the vast majority of demand for our services is postponed until the economies open up as opposed to lost. I think that's a really important point to make. We are principally impacted by the lockdown, not by the economy. So in fact, now I'm sitting in Stockholm. And Stockholm, as many of you know, may be the exception to most of Europe right now, where it may not be normal but somehow relative to pretty much every other place in Europe, it's reasonably normal. So across the markets where we operate, the countries are in lockdown. People can hardly go out. So it's such an inability of our customers to be able to come to us and also it's an inability in a number of places of us to be able to provide the service. For example, in fertility, where there is a recommendation not to initiate any fertility treatments with the risk of virus infections. We can't operate our gyms business as another example because gyms are not allowed to be open for the time being in Poland, et cetera, et cetera. The point I'm making with that is that once the lockdowns open, customers will return, and they will return quickly. So by far, the most important variable in all of this, which everyone will have their own opinion on, is how long the lockdowns will last and how quickly the different governments will try and open up the economies, and hence, our customers being able to return.Now some of these changes will stay. Some customer behaviors will change, probably permanently. Just putting a couple of examples here. Our use of digital and remote services are up 5, 6x compared to the pre-COVID-19 crisis, so which may be stating the obvious perhaps. But again, I think there will be many services that will be seen as being easier and better serviced remotely, and people are seeing the advantages that perhaps they did not see before. We're also able to do electronic certifications in some areas in employer health that they couldn't do before, electronic prescriptions, et cetera. So some of these things are advantageous and certainly will be staying.Another thing, I think, which, for sure, will be there to stay, is the importance of diagnostic capability and diagnostic capacity. And perhaps the most relevant example to show is, of course, the COVID testing that every country's talking about now. We in Medicover, we are running currently weekly capacity of around 25,000 tests, which all are not yet utilized. So we have been able to ramp up capacity very quickly. So we are able to fully meet the demand that we see. Most of this is, of course, in Germany, but we also do a lot of work in Romania and increasingly will be doing so in the other countries. You probably have read quite a lot in the press about problems and shortcomings with getting [ wage ] and supply into the labs, and that's being sorted. That was a big issue 2, 3 weeks ago. It's a little bit less of an issue now, and probably in a week or 2, will not be an issue. And we expect to be able to significantly further increase our capacity from that number over the coming 2, 3, 4 weeks. So we are a very important component of the German and other national systems across where we operate to deal with the increased requirement for testing, which, in my opinion, will be one of the most important determinants of when societies will start to open again. We will also very shortly have large-scale antibody testing, which, again, will be a tremendously important piece of the puzzle for the decision-makers in terms of when they do move forward and start opening up societies again.So diversification, again, gives us strength. Some parts of our businesses are relatively insulated, the point I made before. Maternity, in many places, we see much more maternity demand than we had before the crisis. Certainly, a lot of emergency remains open and see high demand. And the prepaid health care business remains stable. Of course, you have an exposure, depending on how long the crisis will be, if unemployment will start going up, et cetera. But short term, mid-term, the prepaid health care business provides us with a lot of good stability.And of course, one of our cornerstones, the second largest geography after Poland is Germany, which is very supportive of the medical field and the economy. So the -- in terms of the government support packages, both for helping businesses carry through the crisis as well as ensuring support for the medical community at large, Germany, I think, probably stands out across Europe in this respect. So we have sufficient liquidity in the business. Joe will speak about that later on, even for a more drawn out scenario, although our main planning scenario is not for a longer drawn out scenario. And importantly, I think, is that we retain the 3-year guidance, i.e., really sending a strong signal that once we're through this, we expect really demand to come back, as I have talked you through here.Okay, Hanna. So we go to Slide 4. So Slide 4 is then the trade -- main trading update that we sent out this morning. So first quarter revenue just short of EUR 240 million, 20% growth on prior year. That is not bad. Now you see organic revenue growth is much lower than what we've had for a very long time. So just short of 6%, which again is then largely, really largely an effect of the drop-off that we saw second half of March. And we have sought to quantify that. So vis-à-vis the latest internal forecast in the business before the crisis broke, we estimate about EUR 13 million to EUR 14 million lost out of the second half of March from the COVID-19 impact.Healthcare Services, just short of EUR 135 million, 30% growth, of which is 6% organic; DX, EUR 108 million, up 8%, with organic growth, just short of 5%; operating profit significantly impacted at EUR 6.4 million; operating margin, 2.7%, really all driven by the impact of the second half of March; EBITDA at EUR 25 -- sorry, EUR 29 million, still up on last year, but obviously, quite a bit behind where we originally expected to be for the quarter, 12.2%; and EBITDAaL was short of EUR 17 million, down 9% from last year and a 7% margin.So that's the short trading update from this morning. Also to point out that we expect the lockdowns and restrictions to continue well into May. There was important announcements in Germany, the chancellor had a meeting today, I believe. And what we saw coming out is likely to remain in Germany until early May. Joe will take you through some country-specific updates here shortly, and then we will speak about the specific individual plans for each of our major markets.So we go to Slide 5, Hanna. This is -- this slide, you normally see in our regular reporting. It was also in this morning's send out in a slightly different format. Quite a business slide. I just wanted to point out a few things here because it sort of tells the story for you. And if we look at Healthcare Services, first, you see at the very right-hand corner, the organic growth percentage. So you see 6.3%. And then you go down, and you have the public and funded splits. Public really then being our business in Neomedic that we acquired, and we have the Pelican Hospital. So you see actually the public business or public revenue, relatively speaking, is quite not very much impacted. So not bad organic growth.And you see the overall private business, which, as you know, was very dominating in this division, is overall up only 5%. But the important thing here, seeing the funded business. So our prepaid member business, you see, is up a relatively stable 8% organic, whereas the fee-for-service business is actually contracting. So it's contracting on the back of really the March impact we see here. So that really brings home the message in terms of the importance of the stability from the funded business to carry us through the reduction in the fee-for-service business.You also see the same thing as you go down to the country split in the Healthcare Service business. You see Poland being up 8.4%, which is basically an increase in our funded business because you remember how dominant Poland is in this. And so that just shows the importance of the funding business in Poland to carry us through. Romania being more or less flat. Again, that's because, you recall, we have a much larger share of fee-for-service business in Romania illustrating in that point. India, here, really, from an organic point of view, we only had the fertility business in India last year, quarter one. So one shouldn't build too much on this. And in fact, the fertility business, the point I made before, in India and elsewhere, were effectively shut on the back of the recommendation not to provide fertility services with the risk of virus infection. So this gives you quite a good feel, I think, in terms of where the dynamics are in revenue growth coming from the impact of the final 2 weeks in March. Likewise, on Diagnostic Services, you see there that the division, up 5.3% organic. Where the public side, and you remember that most of the public business in DX is out of Germany. So the public side is basically flat, whereas the private side is up about 10%. So private being about 40%, as you recall, of DX, and public being about 60%. And somehow, the average then comes out at about 5%.Looking down at the country split. Interesting to note is that Germany, up 4.3%. And I said most of that growth is actually coming out of the private side in Germany because you saw the public side was more or less flat. Romania, basically flat. And we'll take you through a couple of country graphs later on here, and that will bring well home the point what has happened in Romania. Ukraine, despite being very significantly impacted in March, in the same way as the other countries, is still up, and that's really on the back of extremely strong growth in January and February. And the other countries here are the smaller countries. As you can see, they're actually up quite significantly. One country in here is Belarus, which was very sort of late in starting to be impacted by the crisis. So in fact, the Belarusian numbers in March first quarter is actually quite a significant explanation to why we see such strong growth numbers in the other countries. So I think that gives quite a good feel in terms of the different revenue sources and countries where growth is coming from or is not coming from.So we flip to Slide 6, Hanna. And here, what we have tried to do, to sort of illustrate this for you. Now here we have taken 3 countries and the daily revenues in our laboratory business. So we could have picked out a number of the fee-for-service business in the Healthcare Services for you, and it would have a reasonably similar picture. But that -- I think it brings home 95% of the message we're trying to convey to you. So you have Germany on the left-hand side, and then you have Romania and Poland. And I think the important thing to try and say is you have the weekly revenues day-by-day from the first week of March. And you can see in -- if we start with the 2 right-hand graphs with Romania. And Romania and Poland, where we were largely unaffected completely, I would say, during the first 2 weeks of March, started to see some effects in the third week but it was really a very significant drop-off in the fourth week of March. And then importantly, you see that level pretty much carry on into April. And same thing in Germany, although the impact is much less pronounced in Germany, which was the point I made before. So we are much less impacted in Germany, which, of course, is good news, although we are impacted. So I think the things to take away from this slide is to, on the one hand, the very sharp drop off from pretty much a week in time. And then that we've seen stable trading levels. And if anything, perhaps one can say, a slight improvement over the past few days. I don't want to draw too much on that because it may start to dip again. But our opinion is that it has bottomed out. That's sort of what we expect.And then, of course, the big question, which relate back to when the lockdowns will finish, is when will we start to see a more pronounced pick up coming back. I think that's really what we're trying to illustrate to you with these 3 examples of the normal laboratory. I didn't say, but perhaps you see that, again, that the lines here are -- the blue line is a 10-day moving average and the red lines are a 3-day moving average of the -- of average daily sales in these countries.So then we go on to slide -- next slide where Joe will talk you through the -- some of the observations on main operations in our countries.

[Joe Ryan, Chief Financial Officer]

Thank you, Fredrik. So I just want to talk through a little bit about what we're seeing in some of the main countries. Germany is one of our significant countries, fortunately. They have quite a lot of support in terms of -- for the economy, as I'm sure you've seen in the press. And in addition to that, you probably haven't seen in the press, they have got specific support measures in place for the healthcare sector. And in addition to that, the reimbursement system, how it works, means that there is a self-correcting mechanism in there because it's partly designed around reimbursing the costs of operations. And obviously, staff is one of the biggest cost elements. So even though the volumes may be down in Germany, there is a support mechanism to help -- to sort of self-correct it back. So that -- it will be supportive for us in Germany.The lockdown is likely to go through to May. I think that's pretty much the same for all of these countries. You see now today, there are some discussions on that and some coverage in the press. But we expect it's going to go through to May. The elective diagnostics is where we're seeing doctor consultations drop, both within our own clinics and then also within our referring doctors. COVID-19 immune testing is -- an immune testing is coming in. When I talk about immune testing, you'll see also today, there's quite a lot of press coverage in terms of whether it's reliable or not. This is immune testing where we're using Western European German suppliers. EUROIMMUN is one of the suppliers. And the testing is run on machines. They're not sort of at-home self-testing kits, so the reliability of those tests is considerably higher. So it's actually got a lot more validity and a lot more science and technology and quality manufacturing behind it. So we have some confidence in that testing.The pricing measures that have been applied in Germany mean that we can adjust certain levels of staffing to fit the activity level, and that's very helpful in avoiding redundancies and the larger economic impact. So Germany is one of the countries where we see least impact, if you like. One of the most robust, and where we believe that the economy will come back strongly.Poland, we expect to see there a gradual start, the lockdown measures starting. The government has recently announced that they will release some of the measures in respect to certain shops on the 19th of April, so the end of the week. Now we have presidential elections, which are still going to be held beginning of May. So they're trying to continue in terms of life, to some degree, normal.Elective services, we've seen those significantly impacted. Dental, for instance, you could imagine, that is hit quite hard. So we're just pretty much doing emergency dental services. IVF, Fredrik mentioned before, the recommendation is to not do that at the moment. But as an example of the rebound that we expect people are still going to have fertility problems that delay their procedures and processes, but we expect that to come back as well. And we saw that before in the past when the government changed the reimbursement scheme for IVF, and it became completely out of pocket. And we took about a year to 2 for that to all come back and rebound to where it was before. Outpatient and inpatient activities, also elective areas which have been -- which have been impacted. The employer paid business, the health plans for the employers. We've shifted conversations to digital. Clinics are still open, although we see lower levels of demand with people in lockdown. So we're open in terms of supporting employees and employers, and that business is stable. And then emergency and maternity care, this is stable. Even in some areas, we see an uptick in that as some public hospitals sort of reassign what they're doing and people choose to go private.Romania, the crisis regulations have been extended to mid-May. So lifting of some restrictions may be earlier in a phased manner, the elective services we see being impacted quite heavily in Romania. There were some mixed messages at the outset of the lockdowns, but that seemed to be carrying through. Outpatient and inpatient have been impacted.Maternity is up again for the same reasons in Poland, that people are preferring to go to a private facility rather than public care given the current crisis. And the employer paid business is stable. We do expect on the employer paid business, there will be some impacts as the economy will be weaker in the recovery. But we've been usually -- we've been through these cycles before, and the business is quite resistant even in economic turndowns in terms of the employer paid.On the Ukraine, the lockdown is in effect. They have a relatively lower level of reported cases. But I think in terms of in comparison to other countries, they have a relatively lower level of testing as well, so it might -- could well be higher underlying. The Easter weekend is coming up now, the orthodox weekend. So we've been impacted here quite heavily on the elective diagnostics. So this is one of the highest impacted countries where we are still doing testing. It's stuff which is pretty much essential. So chronic disease testing, pregnancy testing [indiscernible] things, cancer testing. So these sort of areas, which no one's going to wait for. IVF business is effectively suspended in Ukraine.We also will start here immune testing as well. So we have some supplies coming from Germany from EUROIMMUN. So we expect next week or in 10 days or so to start doing immune COVID testing. Again, as I mentioned, this is not the sort of like self-test kits from China. This is German manufactured materials on large-scale machines in the laboratories. So a high degree of accuracy and reliability in terms of the test results.India, the lockdown has been extended third of May, and recently, Prime Minister Modi has extended that. And the elective and outpatient services have been stopped. As a large part of our business, and it varies in the location, is emergency-type activities, those are still continuing but, obviously, on a reduced level. So we have still got, in certain locations, quite a good degree of revenues coming in. We're providing the essential services there. It's very much part of the fabric of the healthcare structure in the locations where we are, so -- but we know that this will come back very quickly.India is a country, particularly given its less developed nature, that we're very worried about in terms of their ability to control the spread of the disease. But they actually have a very effective tracking measures because they have a lot of infectious diseases in India and strong quarantine experience. So when -- so they are being very thorough and very professional and probably more so than some of the western countries in terms of controlling the disease.So flipping over then to Page #9. So we are, as you can expect, taking certain actions. These are conservative in nature. We are positioning ourselves in terms of being able to go through a longer downturn if that was to come out. This is not our base case in terms of our outlook, but we're positioning ourselves in that way to be able to protect employment and work through that if that does arise. So we have, in many of the locations, local legislation, which have been put in place to manage the crisis, and that's all about really maintaining employment. So that's helped us a lot in terms of being able to make sure that we can maintain employment and not make worse the economic situation after the release. So we're using tools such as reduced working hours and technical unemployment, at least legislations allow us. We also have temporary reductions in salaries of a voluntary nature. And the leaders and senior staff are taking larger reductions in that, and some people are on 100% reduction voluntarily. And that's our solidarity to try and help and support the lower paid segments of our workforce.Then there is our aim also to try and protect our front-line staff, where they're still active. And so we have still a lot of people who are active. Seeing patients, seeing people with issues and being very professional in their activities in combating the crisis. And we're very fortunate to have such dedicated and great people working toward it.We have higher PPE. PPE, private protect -- personal protective equipment costs. So we've gone out and we've bought in that, and we already have quite large supplies and stocks of this anyway in terms of being able to make sure that our staff are adequately protected and can practice in a healthy manner. So as I mentioned, our aim is to make sure that we can protect employment as much as possible with our staff and get them back to full salaries and working time as soon as it's possible with the relaxing of the restrictions and the lockdowns.Rent cost is one of the areas where it's a large cost for us, which we've been active in terms of addressing, and we've had assistance from landlords in that. So that's very welcome indeed. We have restricted all capital investment, and our inorganic expansion is obviously on hold as well for the foreseeable future. So we are doing all the things we can to make sure that we can be in a position to go through this crisis and come back quickly.So just going over to Slide #10. To just talk a little bit here about the liquidity position, which is very important, obviously. We've increased our cash on hand. So we have, at the end of the quarter, some EUR 60 million. And this is up from EUR 34 million, just short of EUR 35 million at the end of the year. So we've increased our cash holdings in terms of just using a bit more resilience within the group. Our loans payable net of cash, that's reduced since the year-end. So that's down from just over EUR 8 million. And that's coming in from our working capital movements. So we had accounts receivable coming in, and this was unwinding from positions at the end of 2019 as we receive cash in. So it's not coming from delaying payments or anything. So that's been quite positive.Our Swedish commercial paper program, we have maturities quite evenly spread over the next 5 months. We will refinance [ that ] using our revolving credit facility. But currently the program is -- people are not particularly happy to access that, and rates have gone up as well. So we expect that we will refinance all of that under the revolving credit facility. And net of our commercial paper program, we have about EUR 80 million to EUR 90 million of additional committed credit lines available. So in terms of credit lines, we're quite okay to see through the crisis.We will increase our covenant levels because we were reasonably -- we had a target of not being above 3.5x net debt to EBITDA. But we were running quite high up against that, so we were at 3 at the end of last year on the testing basis with our revolving credit facility. So it has certain definitions in there. And we were running around about 3 on that at the end of in 2019. We've been in discussion with banks to increase those levels. So we're quite confident that we'll be able to increase our covenant levels, which will give us more headroom in terms of being able to go through this crisis. We can refinance all of the debt maturities that we have through to 2020 and 2021. So we have no short-term maturities, which are an issue for us. And our revolving credit facility matures in 2022, so we're quite well set in terms of our permitted credit lines.Our capital investment, we kept at a high pace in Q1. So we were -- as we're going through the crisis, we had committed fair amount of investment in terms of expanding facilities. And now all those projects are on hold, if not committed, or near completion. And we're also, in terms of conserving our resources, withdrawn the dividend, which have been initially tabled for -- from the end of the year.So that's just a summary in terms of where we are, in terms of some of the major issues. And I'll hand back to Fredrik, I think, to summarize.

[Fredrik Rågmark, CEO & Director]

Thank you, Joe. So I have Slide 11 here, if Hanna has put that up, which is a repeat of the starting slide. So just want to go back and reinforce the importance of diversified -- funding sources of the diversified payer structures that we have. And in times like this, that is particularly important. The issue in terms of being an essential service provider, we are an essential part of the health care system in the countries where we operate. So once lockdowns are open and once customers again can access us, the demand for our services will rebound. By far, the most important variable in all of this is the length of the -- sorry, the length of the lockdowns, which I think is largely a consequence of testing. So I don't think one can underestimate the importance of getting volume testing out in the markets to provide confidence to the regulators and decision-makers, to take decisions based on facts in terms of how spread the virus is or not. So it's not an economic issue for us. It's a lockdown issue. It will open up. It will come back. We will strongly rebound, and that's the important thing to point out.I made the point, some changes will stay. Diversification is the strength. And the last point to make on here, which is not a separate bullet point, but that is to reinforce the point Joe made that we are going through a crisis like any other business in the world is doing now. And we have an operation where there's a lot of people, a lot of medical staff, a lot of other staff that is working tremendously hard to service the customers that are anxious, for obvious reasons, and staff and family members are anxious as well. And we are asking many to take a reduced pay, et cetera, and not working less. So clearly, that's a big challenge. So I really want to -- although this is an investor call, but I really want to extend a tremendous amount of respect and gratification to our people in terms of how they are able to manage in these definitely very stressful times for everyone. And also our people is by far the most important resource in terms of how we will be able to handle the strong comeback that we expect, which, again, is one of the reasons why we are confident enough that we retain our 3-year outlook in terms of our target.So that's really everything we wanted to take you through. So now we open up for any questions that you may have for either one of us. Thank you.

[Operator]

[Operator Instructions] And the first question comes from the line of Kristof Liljeberg from Carnegie.

[Kristofer Liljeberg-Svensson]

It's Kristofer from Carnegie. Given all the measures you're doing to try lowering the cost, is it possible to quantify that in a way? So how much of the newer sales you will be able to compensate with lower cost? And related to that, given that you have quite high depreciation as part of the EBITDA, do you think it's -- or is it reasonable to believe that on the EBIT line or operating profit line, that you will be loss-making now in the second quarter?

[Fredrik Rågmark, CEO & Director]

Joe, I'll let you take that question.

[Joe Ryan, Chief Financial Officer]

I'll take the last part first. Yes, we have a relatively high depreciation component. So I think it's very much feasible that we will have -- I think it will be almost certain that we will have a net loss at the net profit line. So I think that, that's pretty much a certainty in the second quarter.In terms of lower sales, how much we can compensate, some of the costs compensate themselves. So some costs are completely variable. But we do have quite a big infrastructure in terms of fixed capacity, particularly blood drawing points, central labs. So that sort of fixed cost part, we manage a little bit in terms of negotiation with landlords who help us out. But it's largely fixed. And then the other component, which is semi-fixed, is staff costs. And the businesses are not operating, then we have taken advantage of the schemes, which have been placed in many of the countries to assist in that and put people on to shorter working times. So that would help out a little bit, but it won't compensate completely. So we will see a fairly significant impact in terms of our net results for -- in Q2, and that's going to be unavoidable.

[Kristofer Liljeberg-Svensson]

And one more question regarding the covenants. When I tried to do the math here, it seems net debt-to-EBITDA before the IFRS 16 effect might even be above 4x for this year. And is that where you think you could move up the covenants to higher than 4?

[Joe Ryan, Chief Financial Officer]

I mean that's what I expect. I expect that we will be pushing in a more protracted scenario through to 4, so in a more drawn out recovery. That's not our base case. Our base case is that we get a fairly quick recovery. And fortunately, quite a bit of our business is sort of -- there's a certain level of disconnect between the economic situation. So the business is quite sticky from that point of view. I think you saw that -- well, probably you didn't see that because that was before we did the listing. But we saw that through the crisis with Ukraine, with their war with Russia. We saw how sticky the business was. And it even surprised us, actually. So really, it's an issue about the lockdown stopping people coming to get the services, not about that they don't need the services. So if you see the business that we're doing in our blood drawing points, for instance, it's maternity, so it's cancer, it's chronic heart disease, it's diabetes. It's these type of things that absolutely no way can you wait. We need to get those tests. And so this is stuff where people can wait a certain amount, but it's been delayed. So we expect to see it coming back quite quickly. So if we did have a much more protracted, a much more difficult outturn, then we probably would be pushing up to around about the 4x in terms of the definitions. But we have good relationships with our banking partners. They're solid banks. They're relationship banks that we've been working with for many years. And they're all extremely supportive of not only our business, but other businesses, which have got a solid basis and are going to go through and be successful through this crisis. So I have no doubt that they will be able to support us on this.

[Operator]

Thank you. We have no further questions at this time. Please continue.

[Fredrik Rågmark, CEO & Director]

Sorry, I didn't hear, you said there are no further questions?

[Operator]

No questions.

[Fredrik Rågmark, CEO & Director]

So we just -- we keep the floor open for 10, 15 seconds if anyone had any other question, just so no one is left out.All right. Well, then we thank you for taking your time and joining our call. And exceptionally, we will then speak rather soon again. So it's just basically 2 weeks to go until our regular quarter-end reporting. So we look forward to hopefully seeing most of you on the call again in just a couple of weeks then. So thank you all very much and speak soon. Thank you.

[Operator]

Thank you. And that does conclude our conference for today. Thank you for participating. You may all disconnect. Speakers, please stand by.