Coinshares International Ltd

STO:CS

Earnings Call Analysis

CoinShares Witnesses Solid Growth and Expands Offerings

CoinShares had a noteworthy fourth quarter with the physical product suite drawing $159.4 million in inflows, culminating in over $230 million for the year, despite a minor outflow in XBT products of $37.4 million in Q4 and $87.5 million annually. The firm's total AUM exceeded GBP 3 billion, with the capital markets unit contributing GBP 12.7 million to Q4 income and a solid gross profit margin averaging 79% for the year. Staking income also rose to GBP 8 million, contributing to the annual revenue of GBP 21.9 million. Preparing for 2024, CoinShares focuses on strengthening its position in Europe, expanding in the U.S., and refining hedge fund solutions. With a new dividend policy for 2023 to enhance shareholder value, the company might phase out the buyback program in favor of dividends.

Strategic Milestones and Vision

CoinShares, a European leader in digital asset investments, welcomed the approval of a Spot Bitcoin ETF by the SEC, signaling a major market shift. The company's strategy aligns with two key industry trends—securitization of digital assets and tokenization of real-world assets. CoinShares acquired Valkyrie Funds to solidify their global market position, including Valkyrie's Bitcoin spot ETF and Bitcoin Miners ETF listed in the U.S. This move is set to expand CoinShares' product suite and amplify their corporate brand recognition, particularly in the U.S. market.

Financials and Performance Highlights

CoinShares reported a robust financial performance in Q4 2023, with a record quarterly adjusted EBITDA since the end of 2021. The top-line performance for the quarter stood at GBP 33.3 million, fueled by solid performances across all business units. The company's adjusted EBITDA for the year was GBP 56.9 million, at a margin of 66%. Cost control and growth in diverse activities contributed significantly to the strong financial foundation.

Asset Management and Capital Markets

The asset management platform experienced a consistent gross profit margin, bolstered by strong price appreciation and controlled costs. Net inflows of over $230 million into CoinShares Physical ETPs for the year contrasted with outflows from the XBT Provider. Capital markets saw a solid gross profit margin of 79%, with staking income delivering outstanding performance. The overall AUM by year's end was just over GBP 3 billion. CoinShares is focused on distribution and marketing strategies to further expand asset management and capital markets activities, particularly in the U.S. and U.K.

Investment Book and Dividend Policy

CoinShares saw improvements in its key investments and exercised strong investment strategy, maximizing shareholder returns. Notably, the performance in 3iQ was optimistic, with cash flows from divestments being strategically reallocated into core business activities. The company implemented a new dividend policy for FY 2023, underscoring their capacity for growth and profitability. CoinShares remains committed to enhancing shareholder value by balancing strategic acquisitions, growth, and dividend payouts.

Operational Developments and Future Outlook

The company's emphasis is now on expanding in the U.S. market and enhancing hedge fund solutions with innovative strategies. CoinShares aims to be a comprehensive destination for digital asset investments and is prepared to leverage market opportunities as the digital asset industry matures. Existing and new products are expected to capture greater interest from clients and drive the company's growth in 2024.

Responses to Investor Queries

The management provided limited details on the Valkyrie acquisition as the transaction hasn't been completed. They discussed the staking rewards program, highlighting transparency and a reverse fee program for Ethereum ETPs. CoinShares is focused on long-term growth by establishing a track record for its hedge fund solutions, with no single initiative prioritized over others. Also, they addressed the company's performance relation to Bitcoin prices and shared plans to attract greater interest in their stock in Sweden and potentially the U.S. market in the future. CoinShares is focusing on dividends rather than buyback programs moving forward.

Earnings Call Transcript 2023-Q4

[Operator]

Thank you for standing by, and welcome to the CoinShares' Q4 Earnings Broadcast.

[Operator Instructions]

Please be advised that today's conference is being recorded.

I would now like to hand the conference over to your host, Jeri-Lea Brown. Thank you.

[Jeri-Lea Brown, executive]

Thank you, operator. I would like to welcome you all to the CoinShares 2023 Q4 Earnings Call and Webcast. Speaking from management today will be Jean-Marie Mognetti, Chief Executive Officer; and Richard Nash, Chief Financial Officer. All those joining today are encouraged to log into the live event where you'll be able to view the accompanying presentation during today's call. Alternatively, the results and a copy of the presentation are available to download from the Investor Relations section of the CoinShares website. A replay of the webcast will be available for 30 days following the live call and a transcript will be posted on the company's website as soon as it is available.

Following the presentation, we will host a short Q&A via the webcast platform. Should you wish to submit a question to the management team, please provide your name and company affiliation. We will do our best to get to as many of these as we can in the allotted time.

Lastly, our safe harbor statement. CoinShares would like to remind everyone that except for historical information contained herein, statements made on today's call and webcast that constitute forward-looking statements are based on currently available information. The company assumes no responsibility to update any such forward-looking statements, and I would like to point you to the risk factors associated with our business, which are detailed in our prospectus.

At this time, I will turn the call over to Jean-Marie.

[Jean-Marie Mognetti, executive]

Good afternoon, everyone, and thank you for taking the time today to join us and hear about CoinShare activity during Q4 2023. As we look back at the final quarter of 2023 and the down of 2024, we stand witness to a monumental shift in the digital asset industry. The approval of Spot Bitcoin ETF by the SEC marks a significant milestone, one that solidifies our long-standing conviction in the institutional potential of bitcoin and digital assets as part of the new portfolio allocation theory. Think about it as a form of Markowitz 3.0.

This milestone recognized by industry leaders like by BlackRock, Fidelity, underscore Bitcoin intrinsic value with the global financial framework. Larry Fink, the CEO of BlackRock, compared Bitcoin to gold during a live CNBC segment, acknowledging its role as a productive asset class and a harbinger of asset tokenization. A perspective that resonate deeply with ethos and conviction. Tracing our joining back to the launch of the first digital asset ETP, XBT Provider in 2015, we have witnessed the European crypto ETP category, [ burgeoning ], reaching over $9 billion of AUM by the end of December '23.

Yet the path to broader acceptance of regulated crypto product has been incremental with noticeable and still present hesitance from traditional financial institutions, especially in Southern Europe and the U.K. The ACC reset approval is set to catalyze a shift urging European institution to revisit that sense on crypto exposure. This catalyst will be boosted by media adoption commencing later this year. The transition is palpable. For instance, in France, we were an increasing openness to embracing crypto exposure through regulated channel like ETP is evident.

Our strategy refined at the end of 2022, position CoinShares at the crossroad of 2 pivotal trends: the securitization of digital assets and the tokenization of real-world assets. The strategic alignment underscores our commitment to transitioning digital assets from decentralized infrastructures to regulated mainstream financial instrument effectively bridging 2 distinct financial realms.

Our ambition goes beyond maintaining our position as a primary European investment company in digital assets. We are focused on transitioning to a global footprint. This ambition was a driving force beyond our decision to acquire Valkyrie funds, a strategic move we anticipate to complete in early Q2 '24. This acquisition is poised to market significantly in our global growth trajectory. I'm conscious we can't say too much in our regulatory announcement. So let me use this forum to provide a bit more information.

CoinShares and Valkyrie shared a pioneering spirit and unwavering commitment to innovation in the digital asset ecosystem. Valkyrie's foray into the U.S. spot Bitcoin ETF market aligns with our vision and expertise. This acquisition signals a new chapter for CoinShares, allowing us to offer a comprehensive investment experience that span across Europe and the U.S., bolstered by a diverse and complete suite of products. Our existing portfolio, including passive products issued by XBT provider and CoinShares Physical, will be enriched by the inclusion of the Valkyrie Bitcoin spot ETF under the ticker BRRR listed on Nasdaq in the U.S.

In terms of exposure to the digital asset industry, our CoinShares Blockchain Global Equity Index will be complemented by the Valkyrie Bitcoin Miners ETF, under the ticker WGMI, meaning we're going to make it and actively managed ETF focusing on public companies in the Bitcoin mining sectors and the top ETF performer in 2023 in the U.S. Moreover, this partnership will empower us to leverage our expertise in quantitative investment strategies, thanks to Valkyrie actively managed ETF platform, offering a dynamic and comprehensive investment approach for our clients with a product coming out before the end of Q1.

I had a lot of question about the ticker choice, especially from Europe and investor, BRRR, what is it? It is a reference to the Central Bank money printer going out of control or going as American say about the ticket game in the U.S. is a big thing as pointed by Bloomberg expert, Eric Balchunas. As a digital asset company deeply rooted in the cryptocurrency culture, it was essential for us to reflect our core identity by embracing iconic symbols of the crypto community. Hence, we strategically leverage opening to resonate and engage with our audience, effectively showcasing our connection to the digital asset landscape. This culture movement is creating strong markets, but also permit into a lot of other culture, such as music, sports and lifestyle.

In the pursuit of brand cohesion and consistency and to amplify the strength of our corporate brand, we are in the final innings to define a road map to rebrand Valkyrie under the CoinShares umbrella post closing. This move transcend a mere change in name, it's a deliberate stride towards unifying our product portfolio, enhancing brand recognition among American investors and cultivating trust. We are confident that this rebranding will not only cement our position in the market, but also project and augmented value onto CoinShares stock, again, subject to closing. But before we get moving further, I keep digging into CoinShares business, let's take a look at our financials for the quarter. I will provide more detail in sight afterwards.

Now I hand over to Richard to discuss our Q4 2023 financial. Richard, over to you.

[Richard Nash, executive]

Thanks very much, Jean-Marie. So as one would expect, given the price movements and the overall activity in the market towards the end of the year, we've had a very strong quarter in Q4. Performance across all the group's business units has been solid, and this has resulted in our highest quarterly adjusted EBITDA since the end of 2021. And this performance, along with the rest of 2023 translates into the group's strong material record with the exception of 2021.

So as can be seen from the overview slide here, our top line performance for the quarter stands at GBP 33.3 million with asset management and capital markets representing a combined GBP 25.7 million. The difference is made up from gains within our principal investment portfolio, which we're happy to report a more than canceled out the cumulative loss for the year-to-date within this business unit that we had at the end of Q3. So this brought our year-to-date top line performance to GBP 85.7 million, and with it a level of consistency quarter-on-quarter that's becoming an established pattern as the business continues to grow.

The stability of our top line is also being [ executed ] in the cost base of the group. The combined costs that putting us down to our adjusted EBITDA figure totaled GBP 7.6 million for the quarter, giving us an adjusted EBITDA figure of GBP 25.7 million, a margin of 77%. This quarter is given the 2023 performance, a real, real boost that closed out at the end of the year, landing us at a full adjusted EBITDA for the year of GBP 56.9 million at a strong margin of 66%. As we've always stated, we aim to keep tight control over our costs to allow for beneficial price movements within the wider market to have as close to a direct impact as possible on our bottom line performance.

While we're still not yet back to the levels of performance we saw over the course of 2021, we remain busy diversifying both of our product suites and activities to fully benefit from the market. We're expecting our top line performance to further diversify as we move into 2024 as our newly launched active funds begin to gather interest from both existing and prospective customers. The track record that is now being evidenced by the strategies that drive these funds is as expected at outperforming the underlying assets. So we are now well underway in our goal, which is to pivot to allow external investors to benefit from the trading strategies that our own capital markets business is implemented, generating both ongoing fees for ourselves and returns for our clients.

Looking a little bit more closely at our asset management platform now. And as a reminder, the components of this business unit are our XBT Provider ETPs, our CoinShares Physical ETPs and the CoinShares Blockchain Global Equity Index or Block index. Again, as we stated in Q3, the story here is very consistent with that of the overall group. Quarter-on-quarter performance, that's a reflection of the movements in the wider market, coupled with cost control and solid margins. And as can be seen from the table here, the overall gross profit margin of the group's asset management platform remains very healthy and very stable. Total management fees for the year are now in excess of GBP 43.3 million, having been boosted by Q4, which benefited from strong price appreciation. Looking at the level of flow activity in our main products for the quarter, the CoinShares physical product suite generated inflows over Q4 of an impressive $159.4 million, bringing full year net inflows to just over $230 million.

Over Q4, the XBT products saw a minimal net outflow of $37.4 million, bringing those full year outflows to $87.5 million. So for 2023 as a whole, our CoinShares physical inflows are well in excess of the outflows we experienced on XBT. So it's worth taking a moment just to remind everyone of the background behind these products and why this is an important trend that we will be focused on delivering since early 2021. So XBT is our legacy product, which we have operated for around 8 years, it's structure and its management fees from a time where the competitive landscape of such products was very, very different. And it was for these reasons that we launched CS Physical in the first place in recent years, a collateralized product with a fee structure that can evolve to meet the requirements of the wider market, whether that be through 0 fee products that perhaps taken rewards to the holders or through fee reductions, such as the one that we recently implemented on the CS physical Bitcoin product.

This product suite has been designed to grow alongside XBT provider and over time represent a more significant portion of the group's overall AUM. And this is exactly what's happening. We started the year with CS Physical representing 10% of the group's AUM, and we're closing out the year with this figure representing 19%. We expect this to further increase as we enter 2024 and particularly as we have now implemented staking rewards for our zero-free ETH product. Just as a reminder, the flows for both ETP products and also those of our key competitors is published in our weekly digital fund flow report, which is available on our website. Additionally, the level of AUM held within each of our products is disclosed and subject to daily attestation reports by LedgerLens, an independent firm solution embedded into our own website designed to provide additional transparency and the comfort to all our stakeholders.

So just as a quick recap before we move on to Capital Markets. At the end of the quarter, the level of AUM across our 2 ETP platforms, XBT and CS Physical stood at approximately GBP 2.4 billion with an additional GBP 570 million of AUM within the Block index. So we've closed the year with an AUM of just over GBP 3 billion.

So now just taking a quick look at Capital Markets. So the performance of the group's capital markets business unit in Q4 and 2023 as a whole, demonstrates the benefit that diversification of activities can bring, resulting in total other income or gains for the quarter of GBP 12.7 million. The business unit's performance has resulted in a solid gross profit margin for the quarter, which averages out the year-to-date at 79%, bringing a level of stability to the business units following numerous internal improvements and an enhanced approach to risk implemented in the year.

The main driver for the business unit for both the quarter and the year-to-date is our staking income. This is up significantly on the previous quarter's result of GBP 4.8 million at GBP 8 million for Q4, and it's brought the total performance for the year to GBP 21.9 million. Liquidity provisioning of just shy of GBP 0.5 million arising from supporting the group ETPs are pretty comparable to Q4 last year due to the levels of flow on XBT remaining relatively muted over the quarter now that we've largely stem those outflows. The Delta Neutral Trading Strategies of GBP 0.9 million remain driven by the same activity during the first half of the year, which is taking advantage of opportunities arising predominantly from trading CME futures.

Additionally, the trading activities of the active funds are also beginning to contribute gains, which are manifesting within capital markets. And these will be presented separately during 2024 as they continue to grow common activity within their own right to be measured every quarter.

Finally, the fixed income activities and that we generate relates to both digital asset lending and also yield on broker balances and treasury bills. So while I provide a little bit of commentary just to close this section of the presentation off before I hand back to Jean-Marie, let's take a look at the quarterly performance of the group over the last couple of years, which we always do and helps sort of visualize the quarter in context.

One thing to draw attention to here is the gains that we've seen in Q4 in relation to our principal investments portfolio, which can be seen in the graph on the right. Now this is the result of numerous movements, which I covered in greater detail within our report released earlier today, inclusive of also some cash realizations we expect to see in Q1 2024 being reflected in the value at year-end. So 2023 performance has been solid. Our best year aside from 2021 and a return to stability and consistency following a very turbulent 2022. While the digital asset market is obviously a huge factor in this. It cannot be achieved without the combination of the diverse activities, cost control and infrastructure improvements that we continue to work hard on every single quarter. We're now ready to use this performance to go into 2024 on a very strong footing, and we look forward to the year ahead. And finally, just again remind everyone that everything we've touched upon today and much more information is included in the full earnings report, which is available on our website.

Now I'll just hand back over to Jean-Marie.

[Jean-Marie Mognetti, executive]

Thank you, Rich. As it is our custom, let's delve into our business line performance, and as usual, let's start with our asset management business. So asset management, CoinShares participated strongly in Q4 progress in the European crypto market. CoinShares digital securities collected around $150 million worth of AUM out of the $884 million collected by the overall ecosystem. And remain the top 3 across BTC, Ethereum and Alcoin exposure ahead of WisdomTree, Invesco, Fidelity and [ GlobalX ].

We're also anticipating our legacy competition suffering [indiscernible] post U.S. ETF. Meanwhile, XBT provider remains a healthy platform, attracting 10,000 new investments in Q4 with net outflows coming from legacy institutional and U.S.-based holding. Turning quickly to the CoinShares Blockchain Global Equity Index or Block Index. It had a very strong fourth quarter, returning 51% which compares with 11.4% for the MSCI world and 11.7% for the S&P 500. The strong performance was led by the surge in the Bitcoin price, which spiked a rally in Bitcoin Miners, which considerably contributed to the fund performance. The index finished 2023 with around $764 million of AUM in the strategy, making it the second largest product of its kind globally.

With regard to our hedge fund solution and capital market activity, Q4 saw the rollout of our Hedge Fund Solutions division and the commencement of our marketing effort to the institutional investor. The first strategy is launching of suite of solutions where the Bitcoin and Ethereum strategies that seek to outperform their respective underlying asset benchmark by 20% annualized. This product complement our ETPs and offer enhanced return for a long-term investment horizon. We were a bit unfortunate with the launch date for volatility despite the weak we started locking performance.

Since then, Bitcoin is on track to do as anticipated and Ethereum, despite being more difficult, is also finding its [ cruising regime ]. The performance of the product with Hedge Fund Solutions is a clear testament to the proficiency and dedication of our trading and quantitative teams. Our Capital Markets division continued to perform strongly, capturing volatility into spot Bitcoin ETF approval. Throughout Q4, the team made significant investment in reducing both the counterparty risk and market risk per dollar of revenue.

Now let's take a quick look at our principal investment book. Our portfolio faced some challenges in Q3. But as the year concluded, we observed notable improvement in key holding specifically our 80% investment in 3iQ and a partial divestment in SBG, partial merger, which has been significant. Interesting data point on 3iQ, Monex is the buyer paid almost 9x top line for this business, which allowed to put things in perspective of CoinShares very owned price discover. These developments have started to yield [indiscernible] within the portfolio, generating free cash flow with liquidity is now being strategically redirected into our [indiscernible] businesses activity, aiming to foster further gain and strengthen our financial foundation. This movement is a testament to our adaptive investment strategy and our commitment to maximize return for our shareholders.

Before we conclude, let's discuss our dividend policy. As a publicly traded company, our aim is to use our listing to foster trust and transparency and to effectively utilize our equity, both as a currency for growth and assets that appreciating the value for our shareholders, especially in a non-0 rate environment. Upon recommendation from the Executive Committee is the Board of Directors has agreed to adopt a new dividend policy for the fiscal year 2023.

This decision is rooted in our commitment to enhance shareholder value. It is a significant indicator of CoinShares distinctive capability to achieve growth, pursue strategic acquisitions and expand our global reach, all whilst maintaining an impressive level of profitability. Our report provides further details on this topic.

All right. Time to conclude this review of our strategy of 2024. As we venture into 2024, our sites are set on fortifying our position in Europe while expanding our foothold in the U.S. market, leveraging the synergy of our partnership with Valkyrie. This expansion is accompanied by a strategic enhancement of our hedge fund solution, introducing innovative strategies to meet the evolving demand of our clientele. Additionally, we are harnessing the potential of our asset manager in the EU, CoinShares asset management fronts to broaden our European outreach. a concerted focus on distribution and marketing, especially in pivotal region like the U.S. or the U.K. and other eligible market is crucial for augmenting the asset under management.

Our goal is clear, to establish CoinShares as a definitive destination for digital asset investments, offering a diverse and sophisticated area of options. We are committed to this path of innovation and leadership ready to navigate the unfolding opportunities in the maturing digital asset industry ensuring unparalleled value and state-of-the-art investment opportunities for our clients and stakeholders.

Thank you all for being with us on this journey.

This is closing of CoinShares Management Q4 '23 remarks. Operator, you can now open the call for questions, please.

[Jeri-Lea Brown, executive]

Our first question comes from HCW, [indiscernible]. Please discuss the Valkyrie fund purchase, the type and size of each ETF, the fee revenue, the ETF performance versus other ETFs and marketing plans in the U.S. and AUM outlook.

[Jean-Marie Mognetti, executive]

[ Kevin ], thanks for this question. I think we announced earlier in January that we were exercising that option to our core Valkyrie. We didn't complete the transaction yet. And as such, we will come back with a full suite of answers and explanation to the market once the transaction is close to completion. So we don't [indiscernible] which is not completed yet.

[Jeri-Lea Brown, executive]

Okay. Another one from Kevin at HCW. Please offer some more detail on the staking income. How is staking rewards split between ETP [indiscernible]? And how do you expect this ratio to exchange over time? How should investors evaluate and correlate ETP AUM and the staking [ income ]?

[Jean-Marie Mognetti, executive]

That's a [indiscernible] listening today. So we are going to be able to share our latest [indiscernible] as an example, Ethereum benefit from 0 management fees, [indiscernible]. And we are sharing the full transparency that reward from the staking reward with our investors, we are getting over time on a daily basis accrual through a reverse fee program. So there's 1.5% pay back to investors over the course of the year as well. So that's basically for an example, which is the [indiscernible] product.

[Jeri-Lea Brown, executive]

And one more from Kevin at HCW. Please discuss the Hedge Fund Solutions in particular, AUM growth, [indiscernible] marketing plans in the U.S. and the outlook for 2024. How do you expect these to rank in terms of point of list of priorities against other initiatives [indiscernible] growth in Europe and ETF growth in the U.S.?

[Jean-Marie Mognetti, executive]

Yes, sure. So the hedge fund solution or to hedge fund, the Bitcoin 1, the [indiscernible] of AUM. They have seasonal [indiscernible], they are performing exactly as we expect it to perform and how effectively getting to the cruising speed in terms of our risk management and timing of the market. So our idea there is to deliver 20% on an annual basis over the [indiscernible] investing. So far, these products are on track. In terms of marketing, both of these funds, especially in the U.S., which is [indiscernible] are eligible for general [indiscernible]. So we can set that to a very wide audience. And our [indiscernible] in the U.S. will be used for that. At the end of the year, the [indiscernible] was registered, as you mentioned, Kevin, in, I think, pretty much in every single state in the U.S. to have [indiscernible] distribution.

In terms of clarities, one, we know that hedge fund in general, is a long-term business. You need to establish track record. You need to establish all this and fuel their account from [indiscernible] which investors or at least institutional investor we look at as a function of their market to determine if they want to invest or not. So we know it's not something we have built in 5 seconds. However, we are building it and we're building it for the foreseeable future. So there is no priority of one versus the others. We are building a different number of vertical CoinShares and they both very complementary and allow investors to look at CoinShares as a one-stop shop where you can allocate to alpha and your beta and move your cursor depending on your [indiscernible] CoinShares.

[Jeri-Lea Brown, executive]

One for you Richard from [indiscernible] Edison. Bankruptcy or [indiscernible] recently that they expect to pay back all customers and creditors. Do you still hold [indiscernible] expect it to be repaid.

[Richard Nash, executive]

Thanks, Jeri. Yes, so we do still hold our [indiscernible] claim 100% of it. As you may remember, that was circa GBP 27 million, which is recognized and provided for in full at the end of 2022. Since providing with that, obviously, we've had a number of offers come through the door to purchase our claim. We rejected all of them, and you're quite right, there is kind of more positive news coming out recently as to the recoverability of that now. Now I'd say we expect some of it or all of it to be repaid. At the moment, we're not recognizing any reversal of that provision. And in regards to that amount, I'm sure as 2024 continues and more news comes out and things progress, it may well be the case that we're either actually receiving some of those assets directly or we're having rounds for reversing some of that provision and recognizing a receivable on our balance sheet.

[Jeri-Lea Brown, executive]

Jean-Marie one for you from Milosz. Will you consider further buyback programs beyond the current one or will you focus on distribution in the form of dividends going forward?

[Jean-Marie Mognetti, executive]

The buyback program is currently up and still the [indiscernible]. We will look at that -- we will revise that with the Board effectively accumulating a buyback within the same harbor and the dividend policy is a bit too much and probably focus on our -- or more certainly focused on our dividend policy and certainly close all the buyback program when our dividend policy is fully in place.

[Jeri-Lea Brown, executive]

We have a question here from the [indiscernible] of our investors. There seems to be a fairly low interest in the stock in Sweden judging by the volume. How has it lost the correlation with bitcoin prices? Are there any plans to invest in the U.S.?

[Jean-Marie Mognetti, executive]

Well, first of all, thank you, [ Victor ], for being an investor in Sweden. We'd love to get more investors in Sweden. I just say very fairly -- there's a lot interest in the stock right now in Sweden. This interest -- this low interest is manifested by 2 things, mainly. A, there is a muted appetite for crypto in Sweden after the failure of a number of Swedish focus crypto company, which has scared a number of investors. And similar, Nasdaq, as see an incredible amount of company between 2020 and 2023. And I would say, available income for investment from the retail market has been kind of scarce as a result because it's divided in much more opportunities.

So our idea is how do we revise [indiscernible] interest and with the idea [indiscernible] the dividend policy. We are in a non-0 interest rate environment and being able to offer a dividend to our shareholder to translate what is a very strong value creation capacity from CoinShares into investor value is very appealing to us, and we're going to express that for the time being the dividend policy, which we certainly appeal to a lot of [indiscernible] investor as well. So we hope that as a first step, we'll be able to boost the interest of the Swedish market -- the Swedish retail market.

And when it comes to the U.S. plan, at the moment, the U.S. is a competitive place, the [indiscernible] for a few company is still block with the [indiscernible]. So until we see that [indiscernible] being a bit more amenable to crypto listing or crypto company listing, but we probably won't make ourselves [indiscernible].

[Jeri-Lea Brown, executive]

We've got a question from [ Michael Patch ]. Has the investment in [indiscernible] been completely divested?

[Jean-Marie Mognetti, executive]

So that's a [indiscernible], former on portfolio CoinShares. So Michael, I [indiscernible] answer your question, we divested 80% of our investment in [indiscernible]. We tender all our shares, and we get [indiscernible].

[Jeri-Lea Brown, executive]

With that, we have no more questions remaining, and we like to close the call. Thank you all for joining.