Clavister Holding AB

STO:CLAV

Earnings Call Transcript 2023-Q3

[Kate Linwood, executive]

Good morning, everyone, and welcome to our Clavister Q3 interim report presentation. My name is Kate Linwood, and I will be your host for today's session. And with me today is John Vestberg, our CEO; and David Nordstrom, our CFO.

We will start today's presentation with business insights from John, followed by the financial details from David. And after the presentation, we will have a Q&A session. So please post your questions in the Q&A box to the right-hand side or throughout the presentation, and then we will answer after the session. So yes, with that, I would like to hand over to you, John.

[John Vestberg, executive]

Thank you very much, Kate, and welcome, everyone. So we just ended our Q3. And as usual, I would like to start with providing a brief overview of the quarter, taking some of the main highlights of the quarter.

Starting off with order intake. So we had a reasonably good order intake growth in the quarter, 15%, mainly driven by the two businesses: Next-Gen Firewall and our Defense business. Net sales grew by 8%. But I think the main and key takeaway from the quarter was a very strong uptake on our EBITDA margin, both our regular EBITDA margin and the adjusted one. So we ended the quarter with an adjusted EBITDA margin of 20%. This is obviously the highest margin we had in the company's history. So that's something we're super proud of, obviously.

Also, even more important, I would say, is to see that our operational cash flow is improving substantially in the quarter. So last year, third quarter, we had a cash flow of minus SEK 21.5 million. And for this quarter, that was improved to plus SEK 4.3 million.

Our software revenues, our annual recurring revenues, ARR that we started reporting on earlier this year, also grew 15% as well. So we're now at SEK 115 million of recurring revenues that are on an annual basis.

Last, last month or a few months back, we announced that we have entered formal contract negotiations with a substantial European defense customer. We also indicated the total contract value of that we've estimated to SEK 160 million. And of course, we'll come back to that in a later part of the presentation.

We have, as everyone knows, quite tough interest rates out there, market interest rates, and we have a weak Swedish currency, and that is burdening our financial net. I'm sure David will speak more to that.

One more important topic and a highlight in this report is that we are in ongoing negotiations with our main lender, the European Investment Bank, EIB. And this concerns an updated payment plan, which we feel is better aligned with our growth profile and the cash flows we're generating. We'll come back to that as well. So all in all, that is the highlights from the quarter.

If we then look at our various business units or business areas, starting with the Next-Gen Firewall business. As the headline suggests, we saw a really strong traction in the Next-Gen Firewall business in the third quarter. This was one of the areas that was contributing with the highest order intake growth.

And we see that the journey that we entered on focusing the business more and more towards the so-called mission-critical customers, mission-critical applications, mainly then in public sector domain and in other customer groups, where the need for cybersecurity is obvious, but also the origin of technology is highly relevant. So the fact that we remain as one of the few European vendors of cybersecurity starts gaining traction, especially within these type of customer applications. That's absolutely one of the key drivers for the growth.

We have, in the quarter, won important customers, both in, as I mentioned, public sector but also infrastructure sector. So we see the energy and utilities type of customers start gaining traction as well in our customer portfolio.

The third quarter had acquired a massive volume of hardware platform shipments, so significantly higher volumes than Q3 last year. And if you've been following our reporting, you also know that, given our business model, when we have quarters or periods with high volumes of hardware deliveries, that provides a negative impact on our gross margins, however, on a temporary basis.

So given that all the hardware shipments we do always come with a software contract on top, software revenues being distributed, obviously, over time, it means that we are constantly adding new levels of recurring software revenues, of course, over time. But momentarily, in the period, it has a negative impact on gross margins.

As you all know, as part of the COVID situation, there was a major issue in the world concerning supply chain, especially in the electronics industry. And we realized quite earlier that as a small vendor, we are probably not the highest in the food chain receiving goods. So we took a decision to basically build a larger inventory level so that we would be able to mitigate shortcomings in supply chain.

This has been successful to the point where we have been able to ship all of our orders. And typically, we ship our hardware-based appliances within one or two weeks tops. But of course, the flip side of that coin is that we've tied up significant working capital as well.

The good thing, however, is that we recently introduced new product models, and our entire inventory, more or less, is based on our new product models. So there is really no risk of obsolescence in terms of hardware becoming outdated because of this.

What we see is that the inventory levels will plateau during the fourth quarter or from the fourth quarter. And given that the sort of supply chain situation has normalized in the world, we will not be having the need to build up the same levels of inventory going forward.

Jumping over to our IAM business, Identity and Access Management business. It is a very stable component in our business and forms a very important part of our revenue stream and gross profit stream as well.

What we've seen here lately is that also in this area, the original technology starts to be more and more relevant. There are a number of legislations within the EU that really puts the Swedish type of technology -- European type of technology in favor above other technologies, for instance, U.S.-based or Israeli-based technologies.

And given, again, most of our competitors of size are U.S.-based and typically cloud-based American vendors and Swedish or European public sector customers actually have a bit of a problem using America technology, problem from the point that it's actually illegal, given the European legislation. So we see strong uptake there as well.

We have been having a situation over the year, where we had quite a big dependency on external consultants. We needed that to be able to deliver on our orders. We have had a program in place over some time now to, over time, replace our consultants with our own employees with high domain expertise, I would say. That's obviously important.

And we've been successful doing that. So we remain with only very few external consultants with the consequence that we are now able to take on larger and even more complex customer projects and doing so to lower operational costs, as we have moved external consultancy fees to fixed cost of sales.

We also mentioned last quarter that we had started packaging our IAM solutions in a way to scale beyond the Swedish market. That program or that work continues. We've seen some results already this quarter.

So one of our key partners in the Nordic region is TietoEvry. They, during this quarter, took a decision to make use of more of our IAM solutions based on the new packaging, and we were also able to welcome new partners in the German region. [ Conceptus ], that's one example. But we also see that other so-called traditional Clavister partners, Clavister firewall partners in the regions are starting to see a lot of interest in the IAM solution.

The important thing here and the good thing is that Sweden, as we all know, is the front-runner in digital identities. The rest of the Western European regions are picking up now. And we have, obviously, a mature and ready solution with a lot of fantastic references in the Nordic region. So the timing is excellent out here.

In the telecom market, I think you've all seen the negative sentiment happening in the telecom market with the news from -- of Nokia and Ericsson and others. And of course, this impacts the ability or the willingness to invest in new core networks.

So we're still affected by that, we see a slow development in our telecom sales, telecom business sales. We still see and we still maintain the position that cyber security needs in these type of networks will remain, they will not shrink in importance. So we absolutely maintain a positive outlook on the growth potential here. But again, acknowledging the fact that now and here, there are very few new mobile core investments taking place.

We have, of course, a backlog of orders and contracts that we're delivering on, so that's fine. That means that we maintain work for our professional services consultants, and we keep on rolling out licenses and services to the existing customers. So that absolutely supports revenues and margin in the period.

We also updated or upgraded the leadership of our telecom business. We chose to do that in a quarter which was a bit slow so that we have a readiness and an ability to scale when the sentiments in the telecom market is hopefully changing them in the near future.

Moving over to Defense. We have spoken quite a lot about our Defense pipeline. We see that pipeline continuing to grow as well during this quarter. There are a number of opportunities that we have quite high confidence that we will be able to convert into complete business in the near future.

One of the larger pipeline items, obviously, was the one that led into now formal negotiations with this European Defense customer. The contract, as such, the intention of the contract is for the customer to procure a significant volume, a larger volume of our Clavister Cyber Armor solution.

And for those of you who are not familiar, Cyber Armor is our designated brand, if you like, for our military or defense-based security platforms. One example is on the product on the right side, getting integrated into various defense platforms. And in this case, the customer intends to integrate into their defense platforms.

The value is estimated to SEK 160 million, and our expectation is to complete the contract negotiations during this current quarter, the fourth quarter of this year. There is a delivery schedule, of course, which denotes that the initial deliveries will take place already next year.

That's quite -- you might think it's slow, but it's quite fast in the defense industry. So initial deliveries, limited volumes, of course, next year. And then the volume delivery is being spread over a 4-year period so starting 2025. So essentially following the same form and fit as we've seen earlier contracts and probably the future contracts will have as well.

From the same customer, we have been commissioned to develop an upgrade or a new product, essentially, within the Cyber Armor family. So basically, a more powerful defense-graded product, more connectivity, better serviceability and better performance. So we see that as a great possibility for us to upgrade our product family as well as part of the contract.

Yes, we have the previous contracts, and we continue to deliver on them as planned. So there are serious deliveries going on, both during this quarter and, following the plan, also the fourth quarter and into the next year, of course.

With that, leaving the word over to David to talk about our net debt and liquidity impact.

[David Nordstrom, executive]

Yes. So you can assist me with clicking, John. So I mean the first -- let's start about talking of why does Clavister have debt? Well, of course, it's due to the fact that the business for quite many years has been running with losses and negative cash flows from the business. So the most important route to strengthening the balance sheet long term is, of course, to have positive cash flow and positive net results in our business. .

And the journey towards profitability is ongoing. I think we have now consistently been delivering improvements in our profitability and cash flow, and that is very important for us to long-term land on a more positive balance sheet. So I think that's the starting point.

But of course, this is the balance sheet. If you look at it today, it is a challenge. If we look at our debt level, the level of debt that we need to, with current repayment plans, that we need to pay during 2024 and 2025 in relation to our available liquidity. This is an issue that we are working with. So let's talk a little bit about what are we doing here.

So step number one is negotiation with our biggest lender, the European Investment Bank, EIB. They've been with us since 2017, we have a good relationship with the bank, and we have concluded, and I think we have a good understanding with the bank, that the current repayment plan where we, during 2024 and 2025, are obliged to repay roughly SEK 150 million is counterproductive to our journey to reach a profitable business. Those cash flows are not available for that and the cash flows we'll generate will be needed more to drive the turnaround of our business.

So the aim here with the bank is to land on a longer repayment plan and with less pressure on the nearest coming years. And I'm optimistic that we will be able to succeed with that. So we will update you going forward on the results of these negotiations.

As you know, we have been using the ability to defer tax payments in order to safeguard our liquidity, and we see that as a good possible source of financing during a certain time frame using the COVID-19 support scheme that Swedish government introduced in the back of COVID. That will need to be repaid. Of course, all that has to be repaid. And we -- our plan here is to land on a longer repayment plan.

Parts of that debt is already in a longer repayment plan, and we'll plan to do that for everything, which means that, that will also have a more controlled impact on our balance sheet over a couple of years. When that is concluded and due, we will get back and update you on that as well.

And then the third part is strengthening our balance sheet, looking at our liquidity, the Board of Directors in Clavister decided to engage ABG as a financial adviser to Clavister to explore options for us to arrive at a more sustainable capital structure. So then we're looking at three parallel initiatives there: it's EIB, a better, more suitable repayment plan for us; handling a controlled decrease of the deferred tax payments over a couple of years, over a longer time period; and then work with ABG to find ways to further strengthen the balance sheet.

So that's where we are in relation to our net debt and our liquidity impact and what we're working on. So this is something, of course, it's important for us to be transparent with you on how we work with strengthening our balance sheet. And of course, the long-term aim is a more profitable cash-generating operations.

But -- and I think we are on the route to that, and that will be an important tool to strengthen the balance sheet going forward. But now we have to work with, but also, a couple of other initiatives.

So looking at the financial summary for the quarter. As John said previously, we have an order intake increase of 15%. And as I said, Next-Gen Firewall business, Defense are the major contributors of that order intake growth in the quarter.

ARR continues to grow, now at SEK 115 million. I think it's important to say then that, together with more Defense contracts, leads to a more robust P&L going forward. The level of recurring revenues with a good revenue profile, good margins, they continue to grow. And we add more Defense business in the mix, reducing our growth risk going forward. I think that is important takeaway.

Net sales, growth of 8.3% and FX-adjusted growth of 8.6%. So the delta here is actually shrinking a bit. So the FX effect in this quarter has actually been smaller than in many of the previous quarters that we've seen. So the delta is a bit lower than before.

Margins, somewhat lower, a bit under 80% target. But given the fact that we have been shipping more hardware so we have more hardware in the sales mix, meaning that we are shipping with the ability to start new contracts going forward, we always, as we have said before, when we initiate a new contract, the margin is lowest.

So quarters with growth will have negative margin impact due to more hardware and sales mix. That, of course, then eases off in coming periods when the hardware element has been recorded before, and then only the software element remains. There's also more Defense in the sales mix. And depending on what type of Defense sales we have, that might also impact our margins. So that was in this quarter.

OpEx, we see that our declining OpEx trend continues, so we're trying to streamline our cost base. We see that in this quarter as well. The effects are a bit smaller than previous when we had a bit more larger effects from the cost of optimization program. But we still see lingering effects and effects from continued work to keep control over our costs and try to find ways to shave off cost, so it decreased then at 7%.

And the trend of EBITDA improvement continues even though we have -- and I think this is important to say that even though the margins in this quarter was weaker due to the mix. we still have a positive trend in EBITDA due to growth and due to continuous OpEx reductions that supports the EBITDA development. So that's -- glad to see that we continue to -- on a positive trend there. Also improving EBIT a bit, but then amortizations on capitalized development is having a negative impact there.

So financial items. Well, this is, as you know, something that will always be quite volatile due to primarily FX effects of our EIB debt. So financial revaluations due to FX have had a positive impact. But looking at what I think is important to see here is the increased interest rates. I mean that's a reality for us and everyone else that increasing interest rates are starting to have an impact for us.

So out of our financial items, the cash flow impact has increased quite rapidly from minus 1.2% a year ago to minus 7.5%. We don't expect that increase to continue as interest rates seems to be flattening out. If we look at both what happens with the European Central Bank or the Federal reserve in the U.S., so hopefully, the trend of growing interest rates now is done. But we clearly see that those interest increases are impacting our financial items, so move forward.

Okay. So CapEx investments, they have increased a bit. It's both due to -- for quite some time, have had a trend where we have been able to spend less on maintenance and more development, meaning that we capitalize more. But we have also seen a bit of higher tech investments. So those two trends, combined, are explaining the higher CapEx.

In turn, that leads to increased depreciation and amortization, which has an impact also explaining why we don't see the full improvement of EBITDA translating into an equal large EBIT improvement, and that is due to increasing amortization.

I think here as well, I think this trend might now be flattening out a bit. I think as John said before, we have been using the Phoenix team consultants, consultants for development. Those consultants, up to a very high degree, being shifted over to own staff, meaning, which is more cost-efficient also. So that will have a positive impact on the buildup of CapEx.

Cash flow. So cash flow from operating activities before working capital changes are minus 0.3% compared to 2.3% in the corresponding period. So what -- why then the decrease if we have growth and a positive EBITDA development? Well, the reason here is the impact from cash interest in this quarter.

So if you would isolate that effect, our operational cash flow would be SEK 7.2 million in this quarter. So interest rates are more, say, putting -- well, the operational improvements aren't visible in the cash flows due to the interest rates, let's put it like that. So I think those need to be removed to better understand how the business is performing.

Then looking at operational cash flows with also taking into account the balance sheet effects, then we see a very strong improvement. We said that also when we issued the Q2 report that we expect the balance sheet effect in Q3 to be more favorable, and they are. So even though we've had a buildup of inventory in this quarter with a negative impact, in total, we have seen a very positive development from our balance sheet, combined with decent cash flows from operations, then we see a cash flow improvement of SEK 25 million quarter-to-quarter, which, I think, is very important.

And then looking at FTEs. We have had -- I mean, we've been decreasing that quite significantly due to the cost optimization program, and we are stabilizing around 100 FTEs. We settled that in Q2, we see it again in Q3. We expect those just to be around these numbers.

We see that the number of consultants are being somewhat reduced in this quarter compared to previous quarter, which is also in line with our plan that when we did the more, say, larger staff reductions in order to load balance that, we were working with more consultants. That is now, and have been for some time, creeping downwards. That trend that we expect it to continue also a bit more, which will be positive for our cost perspective as well. Okay, stop there.

[John Vestberg, executive]

Thank you very much, David. As usual, we'd like to round off with looking at the future, an outlook for the future. But just summarizing the quarter, so I would say that the key trends that we continue to execute on is a profitable growth trend.

So we have -- as you know, and those who've been following Clavister for awhile, you see that we placed a lot more emphasis on driving profitability as quick as possible, maintaining a growth outlook, of course, and adding important contracts will absolutely support that growth.

I think the market situation in Europe is very favorable, and it's increasingly favorable for companies like Clavister having a strong European technology, a strong Swedish footprint, if you like. So with that, we don't see any changes to our outlook. We expect our sales growth to be higher this year versus last year's growth. And for the three years in total, '23 through 2025, we aim to be on the 20% CAGR level in terms of sales growth.

And as David mentioned, we are continuing to optimize our operations. So we have fewer headcounts, essentially producing higher growth to a lower cost. So the OpEx for full year 2023 will be lower than 2022. That's absolutely for sure.

What does that mean? Well, obviously, a clear improvement then in both cash flow. We're seeing that in the quarters already and maintaining the outlook of having a full year positive EBITDA for 2023, with positive operational cash flow in the second half of 2023 then.

And going back, iterating back to what David mentioned about our net debt and liquidity position, obviously, we see a lot of positive prospects, given the journey we are on and the market operating to really establish a stronger balance sheet. We believe that's really important for the operations and for the shareholders as well to have more stability in the balance sheet and thereby reducing the risk and securing the growth.

So with that, leaving back to you, Kate, for Q&A.

[Kate Linwood, executive]

Yes. Thank you very much, John and David, for sharing your insights with us. Yes, let's start with the Q&A session. We have already received a few questions, but please keep them coming in. [Operator Instructions].

So with that, the first question goes to you, David. So you mentioned that you built larger inventory levels than normally required. Can you please elaborate what that means in terms of the ability to deliver on orders and as well as capital binding going forward? You are muted, David.

[David Nordstrom, executive]

Sorry. Do you hear me now?

[Kate Linwood, executive]

Yes.

[David Nordstrom, executive]

Good. So from a delivery capacity point of view, this is something positive. We have a well-supplied warehouse, which, in dialogue with customers is, of course, something positive. We have seen during the after birth of the pandemic that a couple of competitors were unable to deliver, and we upheld delivery capacity, so that was absolutely good.

But of course, from a working capital point of view, this is, of course, negative that we're biting more cash than is desirable. In our warehouse, we expect that to increase somewhat more around until year-end, then flatten out and start decreasing over time. We'll be well supplied for the majority of our items, different types of hardwares.

So I expect us to have quite low inbound shipments during '24 and possibly '25 as well. So there will be a liquidity support instead from the warehouse going from, at least, from Q2 and onwards. And now, as we've seen that the delivery situation has normalized, there is no need for us to have this high inventory levels that we have.

But I think it's important to say, when we decided to build more inventory, it was in a very unsecure situation with very long lead times. Lead times for deliveries of some order platforms was 12 to 18 months, which makes then, of course, a situation very hard to plan for with a very high risk. And that was what we wanted to avoid, to make sure that we will always be able to fulfill customer requirements. And we have done that, which I'm very glad for. So sorry, a long answer, but...

[Kate Linwood, executive]

No, thank you for that, David. So we do have a few questions around the significant Defense contract. So this will be for you, John. Is it safe to assume that this contract is related to BAU system deals with Slovakia and the Czech Republic?

[John Vestberg, executive]

Well, we are right now in the middle of those negotiations. So just out of respect for the customer and the contract negotiations, we are not able to comment on the customer name or more about the scope than what we have been disclosing already. But of course, at the time we close the contract, we will, of course, be able to disclose everything that is needed, including customer name.

[Kate Linwood, executive]

Yes. You had mentioned that the contract is expected to be signed during the fourth quarter. So is that timetable still realistic?

[John Vestberg, executive]

It absolutely is. I mean, it's the absolute target, both for us and the customer to end up in a ready contract before the end of this year. So yes, that's the timetable we're working against.

[Kate Linwood, executive]

Okay. And regarding the value of the contract of SEK 160 million, so how realistic is it that, that is actually the final value?

[John Vestberg, executive]

So my expectation, given that we've been in negotiations for quite a while, both the formal contract negotiations and the less formal negotiations that led up to the current status of the contract. So my expectation, really, is that we will arrive at a number which is close or very close to that announced number.

[Kate Linwood, executive]

Okay. And how much of that contract value is actually committed? So is it all fixed? Or will we have to negotiate the individual orders?

[John Vestberg, executive]

So the contract that has been negotiated is for the full scope of shipments. So essentially, what that means is that the entire sum of estimated SEK 160 million is secured, it's committed. So we will not be negotiating individual shipment orders or individual parts of that.

So it's a fully committed contract. And similar to other Defense contracts, which are obviously long term and long support times, we believe that we will have good opportunities as well to enter into aftermarket contracts or other market deals later on. I mean, obviously, not in the forthcoming shipment years. But as the deliveries start panning out over the years and replaced by aftermarket ambitions, then we might see even more revenues coming from these type of contracts in aftermarket sales. But that's, obviously, premature to talk about right now. But the SEK 160 million is committed.

[Kate Linwood, executive]

Okay. Thanks for those insights. We also have a question around the General Dynamics announcement. This is also for you, John. So yes, this was announced in the previous quarter, the design win of General Dynamics. Can you tell us anything about the progress with that?

[John Vestberg, executive]

Sure. Absolutely. So for those who didn't know, last quarter, we announced that we have been chosen by General Dynamics, and that's the European branch, European land systems, to be their cybersecurity partner. They have a new digital platform called or digital architecture called [ NEVA ], and Clavister is selected to be the cybersecurity component in that architecture.

So since that announcement, we are in design talks about the various vehicle programs that they are already participating in or planning to be participating in going forward. So the ambition here with those talks is basically take the next steps towards one or several programs where we get also commercially integrated. So that's the current status.

And just as a reminder, I think everyone understands this, but obviously, these projects have very long lead times from the lead origination to the commercial rollout. So if we just compare with existing contracts, existing business, for instance, with BAE Systems, from the initial product discovery, discussions, until commercial contracts was a number of years.

So I'm not alluding to that. Every contract will be that long or a long lead time, but it's obviously super large vehicle programs with a lot of both money and a lot of stakeholders. So from origination to commercial rollout is still a significant time. And I would say, we're in the midst of that progress with General Dynamics right now.

[Kate Linwood, executive]

Yes. Okay. Thank you, John. So we have a question around the European Investment Bank negotiation. That's for you, David. So you stated that we are negotiating with the European Investment Bank on a new repayment plan. Can you provide more details on that?

[David Nordstrom, executive]

I think not repeating too much of what I've already said in the presentation. I think the key takeaway is I think there's a mutual understanding by us and the bank that, that current repayment plan is counterproductive for both parties. We need to land on something, which is a bit longer repayment in time and look -- reducing the pressure on cash flows for '24 and '25, primarily. And I'm optimistic that we will be able to agree on something with the bank and share it with you in the near future.

[Kate Linwood, executive]

Okay. Thank you. For that, we have one more question. You say -- this is also for you, David. You say that you have decided to engage ABG as your financial adviser. So what exactly will they provide for Clavister?

[David Nordstrom, executive]

Financial advice. So we would be working with them to see on how do we land on a balance sheet that is more favorable for Clavister's company, but also for a collective of shareholders. And that's the work that's ongoing with them. So let's get back to that in due time.

[Kate Linwood, executive]

Okay. Thank you for that, David. So that was the last question. If you don't have any more, then I would come to our two final questions. So this one is for you, John. What are you most proud of from the quarter?

[John Vestberg, executive]

Yes. I think -- of course, the continued improvement of EBITDA and everything is important. But for me, that's basically a consequence or the result of a Clavister team that is really committed and that continues to do the utmost to build business every day.

So even though we have fewer headcounts today compared to this time last year, we are obviously -- and the team is obviously driving more business and not only more business, but I would say, also more qualified business, business that are absolutely in the right sweet spot for our strategy, business that we can build on for longer periods of time, driving more profitability to the company.

So that said, I would say there is a fantastic go-getter attitude in the Clavister team right now with new innovations coming to the table frequently and a solution-oriented environment working. So I think that's what I'm most proud of to see that the enthusiasm to building a fantastic company is in the team.

[Kate Linwood, executive]

Yes. I can definitely also agree on that feeling about throughout the company. So yes, David, and what are your highlights?

[David Nordstrom, executive]

Now this becomes kind of a contrast to you, guys. But I say that we keep cutting costs, I would say. We started on that journey in late 2021. And I think we've been able to keep pushing costs downwards and still putting the company on a more stabilized growth trend. And then we, of course, want to accelerate growth. And I think we can do that with the cost base that we're having because we are, as building on what John said, there is more momentum in the team, it's a positive trend.

So I think putting -- taking costs down, we continue to do that, and now making sure that we take clear steps to more growth. And I think we will see that because we have been stabilizing for quite some time, and now I think we can grow more going forward. I hope that.

[Kate Linwood, executive]

Yes. Thanks for sharing that with us, too, David. So yes, with that, I would like to conclude today's session. So thank you, John and David, again, for your presentation and your insights, and thank you to all attendees for joining us today. There will be a recording of this session available shortly on our website. And I wish you all a great day.

[John Vestberg, executive]

Thank you. Bye-bye.

[Kate Linwood, executive]

Bye.

[David Nordstrom, executive]

Thank you very much.