Bimobject AB

STO:BIM

Earnings Call Transcript 2023-Q2

[Sofia Sundbom, executive]

[Audio Gap]

As usual, we'll take questions at the end. So please send in your questions to the e-mail that you can see on this slide, [e-mail]. With us today, we have 4 people. Peter Bang, who is the Chairman of the Board; we have Martin Lindh, the CEO of BIMobject and Chairman of Board of Carbonzero; Rasmus Ekberg the CEO of Carbonzero; and then we have me, Sofia Sundbom who is usually working with all things people at BIMobject and today, I'm also your host. So I would like to first hand over the microphone to Peter Bang, the Chairman of the Board.

[Peter Bang, executive]

Yes. Thank you, Sofia. I'm very pleased to be here today with you and Martin and Rasmus, we -- in BIMobject, we are really on a consistent positive journey, both towards our profitability goal, but also in building an organization with new competencies, stabilizing the organization and also taking some necessary bets where we believe there will be a big potential in the future. One of them is Carbonzero. And I'm also very pleased that you are here today Rasmus and opening a little more out of the box and telling us about Carbonzero and all the great things we are doing there and also the opportunities we see there. So pleased to be here today with another quarter of consistent positive development.

So I will hand over to you, Martin, to start up as usual. Martin?

[Martin Lindh, executive]

Thank you for that, Peter. Let's start with a short recap of who we are as a company before we delve into the quarterly results and where we are as a company as of the end of the quarter. For those ones of you who doesn't know BIMobject and what we do, BIM is a quite important topic here. It is the way stand for building information modeling and is the way -- the standard way of working digitally in the construction industry. It is used across the industry throughout the construction process in all different steps there. It is used by all different stakeholders and its adoption is growing across the board. While we are in this industry and this technology is because it is a super powerful technology. It is built upon product level objects, so basically, what we do is you take a building product, you digitize that and you would have 2 components. One is the geometric aspect of the product. But you will also have the data points that are relevant for the individual products. It could be identifying ID, it could be the product properties and also include sustainability data that, for instance, Carbonzero is working with their platform. And this, we work with as a platform. I mean, our company BIMobject is basically a web platform where these types of BIM objects are available to architects, designers, engineers around the world.

Today, we have progressed for quite some time. We are now at well above 3 million registered -- accumulative registered users. On our platform, we have users in many countries in the world. We have reached levels where we have between 400,000 and 500,000 monthly active users -- monthly active downloading users, I should say, on our platform, many of the known architect firms around the world use us as a tool to get product-specific data to their designs and building processes. We operate 3 platforms as of today. We have BIMobject, which is the main BIM site. We also have polantis, a French BIM site and as well as Prodikt, which is related to Carbonzero. The content we have on these platforms comes from over 2,000 building product brands and covers more than 120,000 product pages. And many of these product pages includes what we call as parametric objects, which is a lot of variations of different products, product families. So we have a good set of content for our users on the platform. In the second quarter, we have a couple of highlights, which we presented in the report we released this morning. We have a good progression in all basic metrics that we present in the reports. We had a good growth in the AR. We had a turnover growth in a similar direction. We had improved result, which is -- which I will come back to a little bit more later to address. We had a good healthy growth on the user base in our platform. And we remain a very strong cash balance to creating a lot of flexibility for us and how we can operate going forward.

In the quarter, we had a couple of press releases, some we have already mentioned here regarding Tom Dixon, also my appointment I had earlier in the quarter. We also, in the quarter, appointed Per Göransson to Director of Finance, Per has been with BIMobject for a couple of years and doing -- been quite instrumental in how we have built up the finance function. So it's very pleasing to see also how we can bring in -- or bring up, I would say, people in the organization to develop as leader and take large responsibilities. From the Carbonzero side, they had signed an agreement with K2A who has a very ambitious climate target, is then using Carbonzero platform Prodikt to enable those. On top of that, Carbonzero also launched its service partner program in the Swedish market, helping them to scale up their sales through their service partners.

Other events that happened that were more internal events is that we, as a part of the strategy, launched our sales Pod implementation or like a kickoff of that. And we also have launched a new AEC focused development team, which we will also come back a little bit more on in this presentation. And then finally, also, we have started from this quarter to include Carbonzero's financials in our quarterly reporting. So this is the kickoff of that in this report and in this presentation.

But first, let's also address the outlook that we have or like the macro environment that we are in. We raised some concerns about it, in the last 2 or 3 quarters because we have seen that it affects our industry. So we want to provide an update on our view on that. And if we start with that environment and also what's happening in the industry from our perspective, we see the following: First of all, inflation, we see that coming down across many markets. That's obviously a very good sign and a final relief for us. It could, of course, go up again, but we're happy when it goes down.

And interest rates, hopefully, about the peak, there is more discussions now about potential peaks than just discussions about further increases. The effects on the building industry, from our perspective, we see that it varies between different markets. I mean basically, all markets are affected in one way or another, but it is quite differently on how it impacts different markets. I think especially in the Nordic and in Sweden, I think we are more affected, but for us, that's a smaller market. In general, what's happening then is that we see lower levels of new builds, other renovations being less affected.

More importantly and also in perhaps more in the area where replay or come to play is within digitalization. We see that progressing in the industry and is a little bit perhaps and hopefully, unrelated to other macro events that is happening. So that's a good space to be in. And secondly, is the environmental legislation, they are progressing, both in Europe and in other countries as well. So the implications for us as a group so far and what we have experienced in the second quarter has been the following.

We do see that new deals or the new ARR it takes a longer time for us to close. There's a larger hesitation amongst the building product manufacturers and making final decisions on how and which platforms they want to add to their portfolio. We've seen that similar trend in other periods like for the COVID crisis. And that's, I guess, a natural reaction for how any company react in new environment with an increased degree of uncertainty. But from previous experiences and might be luck again, there might be a backlog that we could potentially leverage. What is more comforting for us to see is that our existing customers seems to be quite willing to stay on with us as a platform. In second quarter, the reported churn level came down -- came in quite low compared to the last couple of years. So that was a very comforting indication for us. We also had higher levels of service orders coming in, in the second quarter from existing clients, showing that they like our services and are willing to continue to put down resources and efforts into expanding in this area. We also have continuously seen a strong growth momentum in the activity of our monthly downloading users. And that's also, of course, good to see that also from the design point of view, it is a good activity on the site.

And finally, like quite unlike the historic crisis we have seen a couple of years ago, where sustainability initiatives were more like a luxury done in the good times. Now it is quite unstoppable. The legislations are coming in is quite clear, and it is requiring companies to work and report on sustainability matters. And there, of course, digitalization and especially sustainability-related digitalization comes into play to quite a large extent.

Let's move on to the strategy of the company is guiding direction for us. We launched a new strategy in second quarter -- in fourth quarter last year. And we try to regularly come back to that in these presentations, also because we feel it is important that we stay on a consistent path and we keep delivering on the strategy to reach progression. So the strategy is moving us towards being a world-leading provider of building product information, which is preferred by architects, engineers, constructors and property owners. And to give you a short update on where we are on the strategy. What I see as a CEO at BIMobject is a great internal commitment and focus, where we have -- the strategy has a lot of different areas and it covers most parts of the organization. So it requires a lot of collaboration and collective efforts. And what is a very appreciative for me to see is that we have many leaders in the company that are maturing, developing and becoming stronger and more independent in the way that we drive these initial internal initiatives. So that is quite good to see.

We also feel that the strategy is sustainable also in a new macro environment. I think we have the right initiatives that we are focusing on. And we are also very happy we started with cost initiatives late last year. I think that comes well into play now. But also from a longer perspective, we also have initiatives in new growth areas and things like that, that a crisis is also about the end of the crisis and how to come out of the crisis and not only to sort of manage a new environment. And I think that is super important for us as a company not only to focus on costs, but also on the growth side.

We do see progression in most areas according to plan. There's not too much changes since the last time we reported this for the first quarter. So if you want to get more details into how we're doing on the individual areas, I think you could listen in to the last quarterly presentation and get that.

Then we have a recurring review of our strategy, and we're also going to have that this year. It is in the third quarter. And we don't expect any large changes to the strategy -- strategic directions we have. We are quite happy with that. We will, of course, have small adjustments to it, and we will update you on those. But overall, we feel that the strategy is quite solid and that we're moving in a good direction.

Then let's talk a little bit more about some of the initiatives we have related to the strategy. One of the most important themes of the strategy is a direction towards profitable growth as we call it, meaning that we not only want to grow, we also want to grow by having positive profits. And that is a journey for us as a company. And we -- let's say, we have made -- if we look at this from a longer perspective, we have made progression over the last 8 quarters in -- which is what we cover in the month -- the quarterly report in terms of net sales and also in ARR, and we're quite happy with that. We have more importantly, perhaps is that on the EBITDA level, we have made quite strong movement forward. Our EBITDA margin has reduced from minus 86% to minus 12%. And that is a very good step forward, especially in the last quarter where we now start to see more of the effect on the cost program that was launched in the end of last year. So this quarter, we had minus SEK 4.8 million in EBITDA, bringing us closer towards real profitability, and even minus SEK 2.1 million, we would be -- if we would be adjusting also costs that we have with Carbonzero, which was acquired early last year from a more comparison point of view. And minus SEK 6 million would actually be the best result in the company's history. So we are very proud and happy about this progression. And for any SaaS company, especially ones that are not yet profitable, the cash is a more and more important metric to look at. We have been working quite hard to improve the cash runway over the years. Cash runway, you can see -- you can view us at the current sort of burn rate we're in, in a quarter, or how many years at that level with the cash last if we continue at the same rate. So that has been increasing over the time. So even if we burn cash, the duration of the cash that remains has increased. And now, especially with this quarter, we report that it has significantly increased to more than 10 years ahead. So we're really starting to take a strong movement forward in this area.

Then in the quarter, as mentioned, we deployed an AEC team for -- or developing products in this area. An AEC stands for architects, engineers and constructors. So that will be sort of like the users on our site. And we have around 400,000 to 500,000 monthly downloading users today. That is also -- that base is also growing with around 30% a year. And today, BIMobject, we don't offer any features today which we monetize upon onto these users. Basically, we provide a service, which is free to use. And that is, of course, great for all the architects and also something we want to do. We want to help building product manufacturers to get their products out to the market. But we also feel that there are services that we could provide to this group that would be good for them and also for us as a company. So what we did was that we have conducted some quite good research in -- for extensive research in the fourth quarter when we launched the strategy and also the first one this year to make sure we really understood the clients. We want to identify pain points in this community where we can come into play. And we developed multiple solution areas for -- which will be relevant for us to develop. Those we try to -- or the solution areas, what we did when we sort of like identify them is that we wanted to create network effects. We want to have solutions which will be enhanced by leveraging other benefits that we already can provide. So that could be, for instance, the content portfolio we have or the reach we have or the network we are building product manufacturers or similar. So that work has been sort like centered around that.

And also, we've been quite clear on that, how we deploy it, it could be a mix of approaches here. It could be through acquisitions, partnerships and also internal efforts. And this team that we have now deployed is sort of like the internal effort in building features or services around this area.

Yes. And my plan here today is to share one area, which we're working at, which is the first task that we have put to this team, and that is to drive traffic towards a Revit add-in. So a large share of our users are working with Autodesk tool Revit. And -- what we want to do here is to sort of build on what we have, but also create something new. So we have -- this is a tool which will bring us closer to the daily work environment of our users. We will connect the content portfolio, which we have on bimobject.com, also linked to closer with the manufacturers as well as third-party traffic, and then connected with the users. So a lot of users today or like the users today, they are on a sort of like a premium plan. But this adding will also provide us a great tool for where we can add other services or value-adding features to convert the traffic towards a pro offer and also to enterprise solutions. But we will come back more about this as we go in further presentations. Then I want to hand over to Rasmus and his presentation about Carbonzero. So please Rasmus.

[Rasmus Ekberg]

Thank you, Martin. Hi, everyone. So let's start with a little bit of a background. What is Carbonzero, as you understand it a little bit better. So the reason for Carbonzero to exist is really 2 sided. We here to solve 2 major problems. One is to help the industry really to get the return on investment with all their engagement in innovation and sustainability and the ability to bring that value forward into their own sales force and forward out to the market.

On the other side, we have a problem with the projects. Today, it's inefficient, it's costly, and we need to find a way to work more coherent, more inclusive in the projects to increase the efficiency. What we believe is that if there is need of the platform, the platform is Prodikt that platform is run by Carbonzero, which really here to enable both the industry to bring forward their products in the face of the projects and also for the projects to work much faster and agile with their analytics and their product selection. If we look upon Carbonzero’s role in the building industry, it's really about generating a secure supply of third-party verified product data. And then we need to distribute it for the right stakeholders in an attractive and relevant format. This is really, really important. The overload of information is already there. What is needed now is to put it forward in the right format, in the right time, in the right phase of the building process. This means that we support all stages, all the building process. This is also where BIMobject and Carbonzero find so many synergies, which we really take down the project, the full BIM model that is really like all the objects containing there is then imported into the platform, and then we help the constructor, main contractor, the property owners and everyone else the architect to go forward and optimize their project. So the approach is really to be a bridge of data between the industry from the manufacturers, bringing their data in a very, very structured way in a data template, manifested through the market inside the platform. And therefore, it's so easy for us to then address it out to the distributors, the property owner, the architect, the contractors, the technical consultants, all than every one of those stakeholders is our customers and users. But first, before we go into the financial numbers and so on, we will start with some -- what's happening in the market the last 18 months. So we got 2 big regulations coming in the European level. First one is called CPR. This is really a regulation that will -- is related to the actual products and the need of climate data on the products to be a part of the CE marking. And that's also why we see such an increase of that kind of analytics of products to be able to manifest the climate impact on the product. And at the bottom, you see the CSRD, that's a reporting directive that is applied on the actual corporate company level, but it's really skyrocketing the need of accurate sustainability data on the products to be able to report and reduce because what we're coming into now is from the stage where it's been okay for many companies to say we have an ambition. We have a target. We have a goal. Now companies need to declare reduction. What is happening, how is the development going and then the need of better data is there. We're also seeing regarding the market development for the project. There is a continuous growth of green building certifications. This is different certifications that you can apply on your project, where also up to 3% of your budget is allocated to be able to comply with different standards. We have seen this going on for many years now, but it only continues to grow, which is really important for the market all over.

This year, we are now up to plus 50 building product manufacturers that have signed up for prodikt.com. We have also more than 30 ongoing EPD projects. And that is, as I mentioned before, projects where we help manufacturers to analyze their products and the ability for them to put the climate impact on the product itself. And if we look at the other side of the business, the users, we now 13 frame agreements with major property owners in Sweden because this is important. Carbonzero at the moment is a Swedish-focused company. We are looking to expand the business. But right now the numbers you see are from Sweden. Approximately 50% of the ARR is usually top right, is generated from the user segment from the project organization and the other half is from the manufacturers. So it's really a 2-sided platform, both regarding revenue and usage. At the moment, we have more than 4,500 projects started inside the platform. It's just a good KPI to see the level of engagement in the platform. It's really nice for us to see. We have a fantastic start of 2023, which also will followed up with a great quarter 2 regarding net sales.

Regarding the EBITDA. As you know, we are a scale-up company. We have this burn rate, and we need to keep it at a moderate level, but also in a level where we really can have the possibilities and the conditions to further grow the company outside of Sweden. During quarter 2, we launched an important part, important stage for Carbonzero in bringing forward an efficient way to grow and to increase our sales towards the user side of the platform. Therefore, we launched a product service partner program, which is really targeted towards the consultancy firms that is working with the projects today. We give them an education certification of being a product professional user, which they then can use in their relations to the property owners to the contractor. Therefore, we also get more organic growth and a more efficient sales process and a greater reach in the market and also work out the loyalty and stickiness of the platform in the market. Thank you very much, Martin.

[Martin Lindh, executive]

Thank you for that, Rasmus. And it is really exciting to follow you and see how you build up your platform and also how much things that you have managed to accomplish in a very short time, especially in how you started to monetize and create value-adding services for the AEC community. I think that's really cool to see. And it will also be great to follow you as you grow internationally, and I agree, there's a lot of synergies between our company and learnings and experiences that we continuously share with each other to help both parties in our joint growth journey.

All right. So let's go to the more specific details on our financials. And we present this basically the same way each quarter to provide good consistency and for our listeners, and we have -- in our annual recurring revenue, which we present here at a constant currency level, we can see that we continue to increase in that also for the second quarter. Of course, we want to grow even fast. We're working hard on it. But also given the environment we're in, we are quite happy. We are still progressing a fairly stable rate. We also in net sales, we can see this breakout that the second quarter this year, we have been progressing quite well in services. That's the light green bar here. And that is good. And this comes a lot from the existing customers we have. We have a lot of internal initiatives around that. So we're good to see that it materialized quite well in the second quarter. On the operating cost side, we have remained at a quite healthy level. We'll come back a little bit more on that. But I think on the next page to discuss a little bit or explain a little bit on the development we see on the operating cost side as well. So for the income statement, the net sales came in higher and again, partly from sales but also from the stable growth in the platform business. And there is some also, of course, some positive FX effects on top line that is helping the growth here. But I think more importantly, on the cost side, what we see here is that we have generally good cost control in the company. There's an improved margin in our service business, and that we are happy to see. And coming to the personnel costs, they have been at a quite stable level and that is actually quite good. And the reason for that is that we launched the cost program at the end of last year, where effects are starting to materialize quite well. And -- but that is also balanced by a couple of different factors. One thing is that we invest in Carbonzero. So we do have cost there that we want to increase. So they are growing. We also have new initiatives, of course, that we have in the company that are important for the long term as well as we have a negative impact from the changes in the currency rates. And if you also would include annual salary revision and all of that, we have been able to contain the cost base quite well for personnel cost, which is the majority of the cost we have in our company. So with stable costs and growth, we will have a good development, of course, on our profits.

Yes. And then on the balance sheet side, we have, throughout the year, improved our effectiveness in collecting receivables. And that is helping our cash flow, which has been quite good this year. However, as you can see, the receivables here have been increasing. And partially, that is related to revaluation with higher currency rates, so that, of course, has an effect on the share size of the receivables. But we do have a very strong remaining cash position, which provides us a lot of flexibility in the new mobility going forward.

Okay. Let's conclude this presentation with the following: Second quarter this year was another positive quarter where we did have a significant progression in our journey towards profitable growth. We also have gained an improved comfort of the effects for us as a company in this changed macro environment. And we are also, as a company, progressing in our strategic implementation. And with that, I would like to thank you for listening in to the presentation.

[Sofia Sundbom, executive]

Now we will have time for questions. So please send in your friends, if you haven't already to [e-mail] and we will start with Q&A now.

[Sofia Sundbom, executive]

All right. So we have received a couple of questions, and I would like to ask you first, Rasmus, what are the international plans for BIMobject and Carbonzero -- sorry, for Carbonzero?

[Rasmus Ekberg]

Good question. So I will keep it short. But just to give you a little bit background here. The whole company started with a very international view upon of the market and the data in the platform due to the fact that we worked internationally within Saint-Gobain regarding these questions before. But the need in the market is global. And the way we handle the data, which we're very, very unique globally on is also international. So right now, we're really working on getting a really solid position in the Swedish market. That is totally our strategical focus during 2022 and 2023. But we're right now looking into an expansion into the Nordics during 2024.

[Sofia Sundbom, executive]

All right, Rasmus. And I have another one for you directly. And then I would like to hear you reflect a bit on the link between Carbonzero and BIMobject.

[Rasmus Ekberg]

Definitely. BIMobject is really like the global leader when it comes to the BIM objects, as Martin explained BIMobject as such is always a product, I would say. But the life cycle of an object it doesn't goes from being a solitary product into a model and the model is often a house, a building, a project. And that's where Prodikt comes in because Prodikt can take a full model imported into Prodikt platform and keep the product data and help the project organization then to really optimize the way they build, the way they select products. So together, we really enable a unique life cycle of data during the whole building process for the market.

[Sofia Sundbom, executive]

Thank you so much, Rasmus. Thank you. Then over to you, Martin. So first question I have is when do you expect to monetize on the first user product? So basically, when will you start selling the first product to users?

[Martin Lindh, executive]

Yes. So I think the questions regarding monetization of users has been a question that we have received for many -- for a long time. And it's also something that we, of course, feel very passionate about doing but we have done trials also in the history that wasn't successful. But I think we have made a completely different stab at this time. It feels very good that we did the research we did. And also, if we look at the [ team ] and the approach we're working with, it feels like a solid approach that we have because we know that it will have many benefits in of how successful it is or not. So it feels like a very natural part to do. And the reason why we went to this Revit add-in as a first step is because the current format of the website is perhaps not the most easiest to create these services from. We see this tool that we're building as a much more robust way or a platform where we can add these types of features or services on. And what we will do is, I think we will release it in steps. So you will see how it develops and when we are at different points. So I don't want to give a date for it, but rather, I think it will be more like broken up in different steps that we will communicate about different time points ahead.

[Sofia Sundbom, executive]

All right. And then stay tuned on the press releases then I assume. Yes.

[Martin Lindh, executive]

Yes. Or the quarterly presentations.

[Sofia Sundbom, executive]

Or the quarterly presentation. Good point. I'll move on then to the cost base. We have got a question that says like this. So do you have any more room to lower your cost base? Or is it already quite the end of the line on the cost side? And if you can further drive down costs by how much could you decrease your cost base?

[Martin Lindh, executive]

Yes. So that I think there is always room for be even more efficient on cost. It is a question, though, when it comes to how much and what is the implications of doing that. Right now, I feel in the organization, we are starting to have a stronger and better organization. So to a large extent, the vast majority of our cost base feels very relevant to have. We are on a good progression. We have a lot of initiatives we haven't talked about today that we are building up in the organization as well. But of course, it will be, as we mentioned, also a part of the -- when we take a review of the strategy to think about what -- I mean how to grow the company in the right direction according to the strategy. So we will take a look upon it and see how we should adapt or adjust if needed on the cost side as well.

So I think we will then come back to this topic later on, but we will continuously monitor it, of course, on -- so to make sure that we are on a good path forward.

[Sofia Sundbom, executive]

Thank you. Then we move over a bit to customer share and net retention rate. So the first question here is, can you quantify the customer sharing you have seen past quarter and compared to the number you have seen on average in the past?

[Martin Lindh, executive]

Yes. And also, this is to -- from time to time, we get questions on detailed KPIs, and we share some data points in our quarterly reports and presentations. And some we don't go that much into exact details of. But what we try to do -- and there's many reasons for that, one is also that we don't want to provide all the competitors in the market, all the information we have about the company even if we know also that we have responsibility to be transparent to our shareholders. So we try to balance it. And the way we balance it when it comes to such KPIs like churn, for instance, is that we try to guide a little bit more on how we're progressing and where we are. And -- to give a perspective on this, I think it was in 2021 when we renegotiated a lot of agreements. We had a period over a year where we basically went through all the agreements we had then we had a fairly high churn. What has happened since is that it has stabilized quite a lot, and it has been quite stable for some time. And -- but do I believe that there is room to improve it? Yes, I do. It is hard work to do it. There's many factors that need to come into play to -- and those who are working on. Yes. But I think that's sort of what it provides a perspective on that metric.

[Sofia Sundbom, executive]

And then to the next question, can you share your net retention rate, you would answer, no.

[Martin Lindh, executive]

Yes, I think it's the same thing. I mean net retention rate is very much connected also to churn. And so it's quite similar. There, of course, other factors involved in net retention rates. So you will have our ability to upsell to the existing clients or if they downgrade their offers. And then churn is also a component in the net retention rate, of course. And I think also in net retention rate, we have a lot of things to work on there as a company that we could and should improve. I think there is a lot to do on up sales and that we could work with and should work on. And yes, hopefully, it will continue to improve also going forward.

[Sofia Sundbom, executive]

And then the last question, a bit back to the financials. It's a question that says, what does the short-term investment part of the cash position entail?

[Martin Lindh, executive]

Yes. And that's good. I think I missed to mention that in the presentation. We typically do it. But what we do -- I mean, we have a fairly strong cash position of currently around just shy of SEK 240 million. And we don't want to keep it all as pure cash. We want to invest it in a responsible way. So that part of the cash, which we invest, we basically put in the short-term investment bucket in our balance sheet. And what we -- our philosophy regarding those investments is that they should be low risk and fairly accessible. So it would be like fixed income products or like where we would be able to basically pull the money and get them within a week, if needed. But we don't see that much of a need to do that urgently, but it should be very accessible, but still provide some additional interest. And also now when we have this cash, it's kind of interesting to elaborate on -- we will get some positive cash flows from it, of course, if we invest in it. And if we have low profit, we will sort of have a positive cash flow, perhaps even quicker than the results will provide us. So it's a nice asset to have in environments like this, but of course, also we should make sure that it's both and a responsible way when it -- when we have it in the books, but also, I mean, if we find good and smart investments, it's also very nice to have that ability to use it for such things.

[Sofia Sundbom, executive]

Thank you so much, Martin. That was all of the questions for this time. So thank you, everyone, who has been attending and listening, and we hope to see you in a quarter again.

[Martin Lindh, executive]

Indeed. Thank you very much.