Hydrogenpro ASA

OSE:HYPRO

Earnings Call Transcript 2023-Q4

[Jarle Dragvik, executive]

Good morning. I wanted to take you on a tour around our Tianjin plant. Later in this presentation, I would also like to introduce you to Jeff Spethmann, the CEO of our subsidiary in the U.S. and he will give you an insight to our U.S. build-up. Before that, Martin Holtet will take you through the financial reporting.

In my Q3 presentation, I said, if I should set a headline for the quarter, it would be, we are delivering. If setting a title to our Q4 presentation, it will be, our business model is working.

We have reached major milestones during the last quarter and as mentioned, demonstrating that our business model is working. I'm pleased with the financial results where we reached a gross profit of NOK 56 million with a margin of 44% and an adjusted EBITDA margin of 10%, which is probably among, if not the best in the industry.

We received order for one of the largest hydrogen projects in Europe, manifesting our position in the large-scale electrolyzer segment. We completed delivery of one of the world's largest hydrogen projects, where we are now focusing on the start-up. With that, we have finalized the manufacturing of the ACES project. And the project is now coming to a completion with what we would call a hot commissioning in June-July this year.

We have decided to put the Texas facility on hold. And the reason for that is -- and then I would like to first take you to Europe. What are we doing in Europe. We are now producing all the components for an electrolyzer in our Tianjin plant. We pack them and we ship them, containerize, which is a more efficient way of transporting the electrolyzers.

Together with ANDRITZ, we are now assembling the electrolyzer stacks in Germany. And we delivered short distances to our -- to the end user. This is a model we can see work also in other markets without having to tie up excess cash. This is also not to be said that we cannot come back to these plants in the U.S., but it will be in parallel with the business growth. And this will also be further elaborated by Jeff in his U.S. update.

We have also initiated now a feasibility study for expanding our electrode manufacturing in Denmark. Based on our measurements and our testing, we see a substantial efficiency increase. And to this study, I will revert to the conclusion -- as soon as concluded, excuse me.

As seen from the picture here, all 4 the electrolyzers have been delivered to ACES. And currently, they are being installed. In addition, 2 spare electrolyzers are just being shipped, making the total delivery of 42 electrolyzers.

This first phase of the project represents a mix of 30% hydrogen and 70% natural gas. This will, over time, increase to 100% hydrogen by 2045. It's the largest project in the Western Hemisphere, which will be operational later this year. And it will for HydrogenPro represent an unprecedented reference case.

When delivering the 18 stacks to the Salzgitter project, all components will be produced at our plant in Tianjin, which I already explained, and will be sold to ANDRITZ. ANDRITZ will be the main responsible for assembly, but where we, in the contractual agreements, will deliver engineering and supervision as well as commissioning in a strong cooperation. ANDRITZ is also responsible for the remaining balance of the plant. And in this way, HydrogenPro and ANDRITZ together are able to offer a full turnkey solution for our hydrogen plant.

This is a quite busy slide. But I want just to highlight that currently, we are now looking at an installed base which is reaching 340 megawatts. We have FEED studies towards completion and ongoing at a level of 1.8 gigawatt.

We announced 1 month ago that our latest FEED study which we are undertaking is for an undisclosed customer in Texas, but this study also confirming our steady build-up of our U.S. presence.

Looking at the global picture, somewhat more than half of the IEA's 590 gigawatt target for a net 0 future has been announced and representing the current addressable market. Of these, 140 gigawatt have gone into FEED. And as just explained, HydrogenPro, as seen from the previous slide, is currently engaged in 1.8 gigawatt FEED studies.

Only 12 gigawatt has reached FID and the main reason for slower execution is mainly due to increase in labor cost as we have seen, capital cost increase and cost of energy. There have also been lowering recently on natural gas prices. And still some regulatory framework and funding conditions are to be finalized.

There are high political ambitions. But in order to execute the regulatory framework, it does take some time to hammer it out exactly how it will work. But we see that is coming now. And yet, there is a strong expectation of FID coming, with a need of totaling 293 gigawatt to be taken quite urgently during the next 5 years in order to reach the announced capacity and the 2030 goals. 293 gigawatt would equal to more than 53,000 electrolyzers of HydrogenPro's size. So we expect strong political push and support in order to succeed with the proclaimed ambitions for the energy transition.

Our focus is in large-scale project, which makes both business as well as environmental sense. Over 90% of the annual projects are more than 500 megawatt size, which is overwhelming share of the market.

Looking at our reference projects, ACES and the Salzgitter project, they will together represent CO2 reductions of more than 347,000 tonnes. We try to put that in a more tangible perspective, this is equal to 262 cars of CO2 emission.

Taking a leading role in the global electrolyzer industry, HydrogenPro has positioned itself in a pole position through being a technology frontrunner which supports more favorable pricing.

Through the ACES and next ANDRITZ Salzgitter projects, we are demonstrating a large-scale track record, which is next to none. This also proves scalability, which is putting us in a good position for a growing market.

As seen from today's results, our global business model through our global expansions and low-cost manufacturing does result in attractive margins. The political ambitions in the energy transition will continue to drive the market growth, giving regulatory tailwinds, which again supports strong revenue growth.

We have shown capital discipline, which in turn results in attractive return on capital. And with our production site in Tianjin, we are demonstrating that there is no contradiction in a competitive cost position and high-quality production, which, again, we are now demonstrating generates a positive cash flow.

I will now hand over the presentation, first to Martin and then later to Jeff.

[Martin Holtet, executive]

Thank you, Jarle. So now it's my pleasure to present you the fourth quarter results. And this quarter, we have delivered operationally, but not the least, financially. We generated revenues of NOK 127 million. The revenues are mainly related to the final phase of the manufacturing for the ACES project. Revenues on the ACES contract are recognized in accordance with the percentage of completion principle.

And given that the ACES manufacturing now was completed late November, this explains then the drop in the revenues compared to Q3 when the manufacturing activity was at full capacity during that period. And for the year, the total revenues amounted to NOK 568 million. That is 10 times higher than for 2022.

The gross margin came in at 44% in the quarter. This is a significant increase compared to Q3 of 10%. The increase is mainly driven by lower than estimated costs with less uncertainty related to the completion of the manufacturing on the ACES project.

Additionally, there were less obsolete goods in Q4 versus Q3. And there was also a positive currency impact that impacted the margin positively. For the year, the gross margin came in at 21%.

Looking at the adjusted EBITDA, it came in at NOK 12 million. This equals a 10% margin compared to minus NOK 19 million in the third quarter. Personnel expenses were NOK 3 million lower in Q4 compared to Q3, and while other OpEx increased by NOK 5 million. The reported EBITDA came in at NOK 17 million, while EBIT stood at NOK 10 million in the quarter. And the net result was close to breakeven with minus NOK 1 million.

Then, let's look at the liquidity position. The cash balance ended at NOK 161 million, an increase of NOK 28 million during the quarter. And important to say, we have no committed investments.

So then looking at the changes in the cash balance during the fourth quarter, going from left to the right in the graph in the middle. The quarter started then at NOK 133 million. We had the adjusted EBITDA of NOK 12 million. We invested NOK 6 million in the quarter, mainly related to machinery and equipment in Tianjin. And there was also a positive change in net working capital on other items of NOK 22 million that brings the cash balance to NOK 161 million.

The order backlog ended at NOK 423 million versus NOK 322 million at end of the third quarter. The positive impact there is mainly then driven by the signing of the purchase order with ANDRITZ in the fourth quarter, while, of course, reduced the backlog when we recognized revenues on the ACES order.

Also, we have made 2 restatements of historical financials, namely the convertible note to DG Fuels, and also a study that was done in 2020. This is further described in the quarterly report.

So by that, I will give the floor to Jeff Spethmann to let -- who will walk us through the North American strategy update.

[Jeff Spethmann, executive]

Thank you, Martin. Good morning, everybody. We have an excellent opportunity to grow our business in North America. We estimate domestic demand for green hydrogen in the U.S. market will be up to 1.7 million tonnes per annum by 2023 and it's going to grow significantly from there. Delivering this demand for green hydrogen will require up to 15 gigawatts of installed electrolyzer capacity. And for HydrogenPro, that represents a total addressable market of $9 billion.

In addition to domestic demand, the U.S. is expected to be a significant exporter, generating an additional 3 million tonnes per annum demand for green hydrogen.

There are several incentive programs that have been announced and are in place to support our customers' projects. $7 billion for production through the hydrogen hubs, another $1 billion to stimulate demand for green hydrogen and then a hydrogen -- green hydrogen production tax credit, which is estimated to put another $30 billion to $35 billion worth of incentive into the market.

While the market in the U.S. is developing more slowly than many of us expected, we do see that projects related to green ammonia and sustainable aviation fuel, especially those that are aligned with the announced hydrogen hubs, seem to be moving more quickly.

I think the takeaway when you look at demand in the U.S. market, we are on the very front edge of a large potential market that's going to grow rapidly over the coming years. So the way that we compete in this market, we recognize that project developers have a range of options for electrolysis technology and for electrolysis suppliers.

HydrogenPro's large-scale high-pressure alkaline systems are especially well suited for green hydrogen projects. And we offer several advantages that are aligned with our customers' priorities. The levelized cost of hydrogen is largely dictated by operating efficiency and operating efficiency happens inside the electrolyzer at the electrode. That's where HydrogenPro invests in research and development. That's the heart of our competitive advantage. And quite honestly, that technology is what attracted me to join the HydrogenPro team.

We offer a standard module consisting of 2 electrolyzer stacks combined with a single separator skid that delivers 2,200 meters cube per hour of high purity hydrogen at 15 bar pressure. And further, our system is tolerant to intermittent power input. So it works really well with wind and solar as an electricity source.

We find that some of our customers are looking for turnkey solutions. And of course, they want those solutions delivered by proven performers. Our success so far on ACES and winning the Salzgitter projects give us a lot of credibility. And we're partnering with engineering companies and EPCs who've already got a strong track record, providing full operating units in the utility industry.

Strategically, this partnership approach enables HydrogenPro to really focus on our strongest advantage, our electrodes and to use partners to deliver efficient turnkey systems to our customers.

So here's how we bring that partnership model to the market. HydrogenPro promotes our efficiency advantage directly to project owners, the end users in our target segments. These are the people who will ultimately benefit from improved efficiency.

And recall, we're serving all of the markets on this slide. But in the U.S. today, we're really focused on ammonia and sustainable aviation fuel projects. And of course, ACES represents a project in the utility segment.

We share our technical experience with others to ensure that their supporting equipment is compatible with our system. And then we're partnering with well-known specialists to put together a turnkey solution.

In addition, some of the EPCs and developers have existing relationships with project owners and will support our partners on those projects as well.

And then finally, we're building broad awareness and support for our systems through interaction with the government agencies that are administering the incentive programs. The bottom line is this go-to-market model really enables us to focus on our performance advantage, sell that advantage directly to project owners and then work with proven partners for the balance of the system.

As we look to expand our business in North America, I would point out a couple of things. First, we are very visible in the U.S. based on our participation in ACES. We're leveraging that visibility to build a pipeline of opportunities. Now not all of these projects are going to reach a final investment decision. And those that do, they're not all going to select HydrogenPro. But today, we are in discussion on over $1 billion worth of potential projects that will come to a decision in the next 2 years.

In terms of next steps, I think of our North American expansion plan in 3 steps. First, we need to ensure successful execution of our existing commitments, like commissioning at ACES. That's critical to cementing our reputation as a market leader.

Second, we need to support the development of the projects in our pipeline. That's critical to securing orders and developing our future backlog. And third, delivering our systems to the projects that we win, with a highly flexible, quality-focused and cost-efficient operational approach.

We're building the team to execute these steps. And we understand now that we don't need an immediate investment in additional manufacturing capacity to succeed in this market. That allows us to take a disciplined approach to capital investment and to add manufacturing capacity only as we need to meet our customers' demand.

In closing, I'd like you to take away these points. North America is a large and growing market for green hydrogen and for our equipment. HydrogenPro competes in this market with a strong technology-driven, performance-based value proposition. And we've proven that we can deliver. We're building the right team and partnerships to leverage our technology into turnkey systems.

We're going to be disciplined in deploying capital, ensuring that we support our customers and generate a return on investment for our shareholders. North America is a large and growing market. HydrogenPro is well positioned for that growth. It really is an excellent opportunity.

So with that, I'll turn it back to Jarle.

[Jarle Dragvik, executive]

Thank you, Jeff. Again, Q4 in brief. We were awarded a 100 megawatt order from ANDRITZ. We posted an EBITDA of NOK 12 million with a 10% margin. We completed ACES manufacturing process. We have a committed team in place in North America. We're expanding test facility for advanced electrodes in Denmark. And we have developed significant market opportunities, again, demonstrating that we have the right business model.

Going forward, we continue to develop our business on our 4 strategic pillars. We are continuing to invest in technology development, expand our research center. We hired a new CTO, Odon Johansen, with a long and vast experience from the hydrogen industry. Odon holds a PhD in technical electrochemistry.

We have a global footprint by building up organization now in the U.S. as well as in Germany. For scalability, with the commissioning of the ACES project, we demonstrate our scalability. We continue to focus on large-scale projects where we see the market growth. We see also that for life cycle partnerships, we can retrofit the Generation 3 electrodes. And we increased our focus on service offering.

So with that, I would like to invite you to our Q&A session, and ask Martin and Jeff to join me to answer the questions you have.

[Unknown Executive]

So we received a number of questions throughout the presentation. I'll run through them as they come in. So this question refers to the third-generation electrodes. Does your ongoing FEED study include the offering of third-generation electrodes? And when do you expect the first electrolyzers with these electrodes to be delivered?

[Jarle Dragvik, executive]

Yes is the answer to the first part of the question that, yes, we have FEED studies, including third-generation electrodes. When it comes to the first electrolyzer with Generation 3, this is an agreement with ANDRITZ, where there is -- where we are building electrode with these electrodes in it.

[Unknown Executive]

So you're getting $50 million for 200-megawatt plant, which suggests a price of $0.23 per watt. You're also getting EUR 18 million for 100 megawatt plant, which suggests a price of EUR 0.18 per watt. At the same time, you're generating almost 50% gross margin, which is impressive.

Are the price points an accurate reflection on the current market? And do you expect to expand margins if prices remain on current levels?

[Jarle Dragvik, executive]

Well, maybe if you let Martin elaborate more on it, but just high level on it. First of all, the 2 projects should not be compared. As -- in the ACES project, HydrogenPro is delivering the full scale of the electrolyzer. In the ANDRITZ project, we are delivering the components and ANDRITZ is then delivering the electrolyzer to the customer, whereas HydrogenPro is the original equipment manufacturing. So it's our brand.

When it comes to the margin, basically, we will obviously have to adjust to the market, as in any other industries. But without any doubt, we would grasp the opportunities for increasing the margins when we see that the market can sustain that.

We have obviously a good position both with the references we have with ACES as well as more efficient electrodes to be able to increase margins on a general basis.

But I don't know if you want to have more comments to it, Martin?

[Martin Holtet, executive]

And one small additional comment is that, yes, we had a 44% gross margin in the fourth quarter. But looking at the total margin for the year, that came in at 21% gross margin, which is a more -- representative figure with regards to the overall profitability for the ACES project.

[Unknown Executive]

Given the HydrogenPro's focus on the U.S. market and the potential impact of political shifts, particularly with the possibility of Trump returning to the White House, could you provide insight into how the company perceives the market dynamics under such circumstances? And also with speculation of policy changes favoring fossil energy production, has HydrogenPro observed any announcements or trends indicating increased investment in this sector from any specific entities or regions?

[Jarle Dragvik, executive]

I think, Jeff, you are the right one to answer that.

[Jeff Spethmann, executive]

Yes, thanks. So I'm going to avoid any, maybe political prognostication. What I would say, the incentive programs that have been structured to support the development of kind of the energy transition and green hydrogen and the hydrogen economy, there -- those programs came to life through legislation, right?

So it would literally take an act of Congress to reverse course on those incentive programs. I think I would add, despite the political environment, or maybe regardless of the political environment, I would say industry in the U.S. and more broadly globally really is committed to pushing the energy transition ahead, because it's the right thing to do.

So the programs -- the incentive programs are important at the beginning to establish kind of a level economic playing field. But once we get some momentum, we won't rely on government subsidies to continue to drive forward. And I don't think that one person, even as a President of the United States is going to change that momentum.

[Unknown Executive]

Sticking to the U.S. topic, do you still expect HydrogenPro to list on the New York Stock Exchange or NASDAQ in the short-term future?

[Jarle Dragvik, executive]

Not in the short-term. But obviously, we are continuously evaluating our options in order to increase shareholder value.

[Unknown Executive]

So what is the actual manufacturing delivery plans in the U.S. going to look like? And are there -- now are there any U.S. stack production on the horizon?

[Jarle Dragvik, executive]

Stack production on horizon for HydrogenPro?

[Unknown Executive]

Yes.

[Jarle Dragvik, executive]

As I said in my presentation, we are looking at replicating the model that we have now set up in Europe, together with ANDRITZ. We will rely on component production in China based on the capacity we have there, shipping it in containers to the relevant market and customers and assemble, so assembly production nearby the customers' site based on large projects.

So having said that, it doesn't mean that we will not expand further manufacturing in U.S., for instance, but we see that an assembly model is working.

[Unknown Executive]

The contract values indicated for the U.S. project sounds high, given the indicated scope. When comparing to prices for European projects, would you say that prices in the U.S. are generally higher?

[Jeff Spethmann, executive]

I got that one. I think what I would say is that it is really early days in the market. And I don't know that there's enough of a market to really say that a market price is established. I think one of the earlier questions brought up ACES as a reference point, that's the first job. And I don't think that's a meaningful reference point on market price.

As we look at kind of the economics and as the market develops, I think the answer to the question is no. I don't think the U.S. is going to generally be more expensive than Europe or any place else. But I think that it's going to be -- certainly the market price is going to be higher than what we've seen so far on the jobs that we've taken.

[Jarle Dragvik, executive]

And maybe I can also add to this and combine with the first one that with our position of our cost attractive production in China, and at the moment, not very hard pressure on local content. We can utilize this position both in terms of adapting to the market pricing as well as generating higher prices.

Going further into the future, there is an expectation that local content will increase and we see that in Europe. But we also see that -- the model with component manufacturing overseas where you, at the moment, cannot establish that supply chain in other markets. We are dependent on China supply. It's working also as a local content manufacturing.

[Unknown Executive]

Question related to China, do you plan to expand your capacity?

[Jarle Dragvik, executive]

At the moment, we are not planning to expand it. But this is an evaluation we are doing constantly as we are growing our business, where does it make sense to expand and what is the return of the investment when we are expanding.

[Unknown Executive]

Can you give an update on DG Fuels? If the DG Fuels project is put on hold, will the convertible loan be impaired?

[Jarle Dragvik, executive]

Martin, you can answer it.

[Martin Holtet, executive]

This is a question regarding sort of the accounting restatement. I think what was done now is that the convertible note, that was restated back to sort of cost that has previously been at a write-up 2 times in the financial statements. But we now have reviewed that one more time arriving at the conclusion that the -- call it, the fair value of that note is equal then to the cost.

And HydrogenPro, we invested $3 million into -- in a convertible note back in October 2021. But I think there -- the FEED study is undergoing. So there has sort of been a very much more mature project today compared to when we made that investment. But this restatement is basically on an accounting review.

[Unknown Executive]

And when do you expect the FID for the DG Fuels project to take place?

[Jarle Dragvik, executive]

Here, we have to revert to DG Fuels, whereas we're basically dependent on the communication from DG Fuels. What is stated is that FEL3 is coming into an end phase. It has also there taking a bit longer. It's a huge project. It's very complex. So we see that the timetable has moved a bit.

Exactly when the FID is taking place, it's up to DG Fuels to answer. But other than that, we do not have any further news than what we have said previously.

[Unknown Executive]

More on the pipeline in general, where -- when should you realistically expect FIDs for the different projects listed on the slide?

[Jarle Dragvik, executive]

Again, it's up to each project when they have the financing, when they are ready to push the green button. I think on a general basis, we see that there are several projects, should we say, coming closer and closer in terms of when they need to be executed. But to give an exact date or time for the FID, I don't want to do it here.

[Unknown Executive]

Does HydrogenPro still have a role in Kvina Energy and also status of this project?

[Jarle Dragvik, executive]

Yes. HydrogenPro has a role. We invested initially in the project. But overall is a passive role. It's a project managed by the local project team together with Linde, which is basically the project executor.

[Unknown Executive]

What's your view on your current cash position? Do you think it's strong enough to deliver on projects going forward?

[Martin Holtet, executive]

Yes. So as I explained in the Q4 update, we have no committed investments in -- whether it's in equipment or in our machinery or -- et cetera. But that being said, when we take on larger projects, that typically requires some working capital need. And the most important for us, of course, is to continue to grow this company to take on larger projects. And that could, of course, then lead to us that we will, at some point in time also raise funds in order to achieve that. But there are no sort of immediate need of that.

[Unknown Executive]

Could you comment on the over investment trend that you've seen over the years in over assembly works rather than technology and how HydrogenPro is positioning against that?

[Martin Holtet, executive]

I'm not sure if I understood the question. Can you repeat it, please?

[Unknown Executive]

Can you comment on the over investment trends that you've seen over the years and over assembly works rather than technology?

[Martin Holtet, executive]

So over investment, I assume then related to the general industry and not HydrogenPro specifically, so if that is correct understood?

[Jarle Dragvik, executive]

Yes. Well, I think basically, if we related to our issue in the U.S. where we say that we want to be disciplined in the use of capital. And we want to invest as we grow the business and not be years ahead of the business.

I think in general, we see that we have, should we say, colleagues in the industry who have either announced and not yet started to build or have announced and are building, but not having business substance behind it. It's obviously impacting the view of the industry.

But again, looking at HydrogenPro, with the largest reference project in the world with the most efficient electrodes, we see that we will grow that business based on these merits and we will then invest accordingly as we get the projects on board.

[Unknown Executive]

So what percentage of the actual orders does the service and support agreement actually represent? Do you have positive margins on support and service agreements?

[Jarle Dragvik, executive]

Martin, do you want to comment on that?

[Martin Holtet, executive]

Yes, I don't think we have a specific number with regards to the share of the service versus the electrolyzer system delivery. And to be fair, I'm not able to comment either on the margins on the service. But we typically, see that when we deliver, we, of course, would like to then offer a service and support agreement as well to deliver sort of overall services, et cetera.

I think with regards to aftersales, that is definitely a business where we'll be closer in to expand our offering with them in that regard.

[Unknown Executive]

Given the swift changes in business model you're currently undergoing, could you comment on the sustainability of the gross margin level you had in the fourth quarter of 2023?

[Martin Holtet, executive]

Yes. I think I commented on that earlier. Again, we had a spike in the margin in Q4 when we completed the manufacturing of ACES. But -- and again, looking at 2023 in total of 21% is a better percentage figure in terms of sort of the underlying margin on the ACES order.

[Unknown Executive]

What is your expectations of the revenue profile in 2024 with respect to commissioning of ACES and the delivery to Salzgitter?

[Jarle Dragvik, executive]

Again, Martin?

[Martin Holtet, executive]

Yes. I think we have announced that the Salzgitter is contract is close to EUR 18 million. And beyond that, we are not sort of guiding financially.

[Unknown Executive]

Back on the U.S. is a large order, what is needed in order for us to take an investment decision on manufacturing in the U.S.?

[Martin Holtet, executive]

Again, sorry, can you repeat?

[Unknown Executive]

Is a large order what is needed in order for us to take an investment decision on manufacturing in the U.S.?

[Martin Holtet, executive]

Well, as said, we will invest according to -- with the business growth. So obviously, as we will book order in the future, that will also determine the investments that we would need to make.

[Unknown Executive]

H2V states on its website that a study for the second phase of the Dunkirk project is underway. Why is this FEED study not included in the presentation? Are you still involved in the project?

[Jarle Dragvik, executive]

Martin, I don't know, you had the history longer than I have. But from my understanding, yes.

[Martin Holtet, executive]

Yes. So I think from our side, this is not sort of a top priority project in terms of our efforts at the moment. So I think we will need to get back to that in case there sort of is a more active dialogue on that project.

[Unknown Executive]

When do you expect that the ACES project will start to produce its first hydrogen?

[Jarle Dragvik, executive]

We expect it to start producing the first hydrogen in the latter part of Q3 and going into Q4.

[Unknown Executive]

And perhaps the last question here is, do you think bigger modules are the key to reducing costs for the plants?

[Martin Holtet, executive]

Yes. I think we have said before that it is without doubt expensive to produce hydrogen. Therefore, you need economy of scale and to attract or obtain that economy of scale, you need large projects and you need large electrolyzers in order to minimize all the single cost components.

[Unknown Executive]

I think we can round up with one final question. It's more broad. It was mentioned that HydrogenPro will consider starting assembly of stacks in Europe. Can you elaborate when and where this will happen? And can you also update us on the latest on R&D activities, specifically with reference to the third-generation electrodes?

[Jarle Dragvik, executive]

For example, that is starting now. As we said, we are starting now the production of the order to ANDRITZ and Salzgitter. And they will be produced and also shipped and delivered to Europe during the second quarter and further going into the third quarter.

The second part of the question was?

[Unknown Executive]

Can you give an update on the R&D activities, particularly with reference to the third-generation electrodes?

[Jarle Dragvik, executive]

So during the last quarter, we have invested further and upgraded the electrode research center in Denmark. As I also said in the presentation, we are now going into a, call it, internal engineering study or FEED study for investing in further electrode capacity.

[Unknown Executive]

Thank you.