Gentian Diagnostics ASA
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[Operator Instructions]
Welcome to this webcast by Gentian Diagnostics for the fourth quarter and '22 year results. My name is Njaal Kind, I'm CFO of Gentian Diagnostics, and next to me is Hilja Ibert, the CEO of the group. Good morning to you all. Good morning, Hilja.
Good morning.
And just a few practical notes on this webcast, we will after the presentation have a Q&A session, so please use the questions box available to you in this webcast to write questions in to us. And we will do our best to moderate those questions after the presentation.With that, I leave the introduction and start with the presentation to Hilja and then I will be back a little bit later with the -- with the financial review. Hilja.
Thank you, Njaal. Yeah, good morning as well from my side. It's a pleasure being again here and presenting our Q4 results. Before we do so, it is -- I would like to -- have just to learn how to do that.I would like to introduce you to the company, especially for the participants today who have not been in touch with Gentian before. Within the life science market, we are fully dedicated to the clinical diagnostics market. And this is the part where the laboratories provide results to clinicians in order to take good treatment decision.And based on the needs, we have learned from the market and the skills we have assembled in our company, we have given ourselves the mission to innovate diagnostic efficiency in order to help clinicians take better treatment decisions. And I hope that throughout this presentation, you will get a better understanding of what is behind his mission statement.Before I continue, I have to excuse myself for my voice. I catched quite nasty cold. I'm sure I'm not the only one here today in the room, and I hope that you can still understand me well.We consider ourself being a growth company. And our growth plan is based on several items. Foremost, obviously our products. 7 of them, and as I address, in total USD 1.8 billion market. The product would not exist and would not be sold into the market without team which we have in place. And therefore, we consider this equally important to our growth plan as the products are.Our go-to-market model is based mainly on partnerships with distribution companies, and so here obviously the ones who provides the instrument platforms to the laboratory. So this is what we call the IVD companies, in vitro diagnostics.Based on this model, based on the products, and based on the team we have in place, we have a long term ambition to achieve NOK 1 billion within the next 4 to 6 years. And in addition as well, getting into the area of 40% in EBITDA margin. And we are quite confident about this ambition, as we have achieved in the years 2019 to 2022 an average of 28% of compound growth rate. And with this -- well, with this we believe that our growth plan works and we are continuing this path.A few more details on these 4 items which I have introduced you to. So we have our 7 products. We build them up by disease group, but we are not really disease focused. Our aim is to help laboratories to become more efficient, and clinicians to take better treatment decisions. This is what drives the decision which product we develop now and in the future.Therefore, we talk in the moment more about established products, because these are the products which are in the market used in routine use. They're in the medical records. While we have as well one product which is a market development, and therefore another category, because here we still need to work with key opinion leaders to inform the market about the benefits of such a biomarker.And the third category is, obviously, the product which we are developing. And here is our #1 priority, the NT-proBNP assay and I will speak as well little bit in detail about that.So from a value proposition is what I mentioned before all these products which we have developed, which we have in sales or in product development, enable laboratories to significantly improve their efficiency. And that is very important these days as the laboratories have more and more samples to process every day, while they do not have more resources automatically. So they are looking into process optimization, higher productivity possibilities and that is what we are contributing to.The other element is in then that by bringing those biomarkers to the highest throughput instrument platforms, which is a source of the productivity gain, the results will be as well faster available to clinicians. And the biomarkers which we have selected add as well significant clinical benefits by having results fast available as well to clinicians.I give you an example about Cystatin C, the first one on this list. We are talking about kidney disease. Using Cystatin C to monitor the development of the kidney health, you detect or the clinician can detect much, much earlier that the kidney is not doing well. And can make respective decisions to change treatment much earlier and resist avoiding that the kidney becomes severe in terms of failure, which of course, causes in dialysis or even transplantation. So we're speaking about really significant clinical benefits here.The other example I mentioned it before, we have one product in product development, GCAL, it's the third product on this list, calprotectin in serum or plasma. It is a marker which is discussed scientifically as an early detection of severe infection or as well inflammation.We have most recently -- well, in the last years several studies started. We had in the meantime, several publications and that helped as well to gain traction in the market to have routine users, and as well, most recently, especially in 2022, that became our first IVD partners as commercial partners.See we announced it is in January '22 with Siemens, and in Q4 '22 we had announced the partnership with another IVD player who doesn't want to be named.So the highlights for fresh from the press is that we have another very important study just published by the Karolinska Institute. And this study was started quite a while ago. Many studies have been delayed because of corona, but now we are seeing that it's picking up.And we are very pleased with the results. We have shared the results with you in the stock exchange release, and believe that this is another support for us going forward with our commercial efforts.Having that said, we have as well, later on the Q&A, we're going to have Markus Jaquemar, our CCO, our Chief Commercial Officer with us. So if you have questions, especially on the commercial side, feel free to post them.And the third category, as I mentioned, NT-proBNP, I will have a few updates as well on that later on.But before I get to NT-proBNP, I think it's important to share with you the market data, and they are fresh from the press, updated. We are working with Kalorama, well recognized organization. These data are now from 2022.The serviceable market has increased currently to USD 1.8 billion. The growth rates, et cetera, no significant change to what we had reported before. All-in-all, we are believing that we are acting with our current 7 products in an attractive market and have a lot of room for our growth ambitions.What is new as well this year, that besides the established products, which are Cystatin C, fCAL and fPELA, we have with GCAL made a differentiation between infection, severe infection, sepsis, and GCAL as inflammation marker, for example, rheumatoid arthritis, which is a sizable market as well. And that is currently under evaluation, especially with our partners Siemens.As I mentioned before, an update on NT-proBNP. One of those products where we have high expectations as well as we know from the market that such a high throughput biomarker, which is asked in high volumes would help laboratory significantly to improve productivity.But in addition, while we have developed that marker, we have learned a lot. And it's amazing to see about the awareness of the nature of this molecule, which has -- which is impacted by a phenomenon which is called glocalization. So sugar molecules are attached to parts of the NT-proBNP molecule.And very early on, we had the hypothesis based on the scientific data that the localization has an impact on the established assays which are in the market by underestimating the amount of this molecule in the plasma or in the serum sample. So, this has been confirmed by most recent results, we have achieved with a working prototype. And believe that we have here as well an additional value to the market wow or as well going forward that is what science will tell us.In addition to this, a good news is as well as, that we have no further technical challenges identified. We are all hands on deck to further optimize the product as we are approaching here sensitivity areas which nobody ever has achieved in PETIA. This requires more time than standard assay in the normal ranges of sensitivity.We have reported as well in the past about, as a reference method, which we needed to better understand how do we do with our assay, how do we compare to the assays in the market, which again had demonstrated to us the effect of these glocalization and that we are detecting with our approach and our design higher numbers.So we still aim to publish and present as well more data on that, while we have as well now for higher testing volumes developed a simpler and more efficient reference method/calibration method. With this method we will -- we have developed a calibration strategy which aims to stick to what is the standard in the market, but still allow to being able to detect the -- to highlight as well as those patients which have higher numbers and what the current assays are providing.And, as well from a commercial point of view, we have started, as Njaal has reported earlier, to speak selectively into the market with potential commercial partners, continue to have positive feedback and -- yeah, are very encouraged by this.So that was a part about our products. I mentioned before the team. We have a unique team assembled here at Moss, but as well in our sites in Stockholm, in U.S. and in China. We have a team which comes from the early days of the company with a unique experience in the PETIA technology. And we have experience from people we have attracted from other companies with the experience we needed to grow this company to the ambition which we have stated with you.In Q4, we announced the change in the organization for having promoted Alexandra Havelkato to CSO. And with this, our Co-Founder, Erling Sundrehagen, taking over a new role in the company as Consulting Founder, focusing obviously as he did before, significantly on the NT-proBNP development.We had mentioned as well before that we are -- our major go-to-market model is the partnership with those companies who provides the instrument platforms to the market. We have -- we believe that this strategy works well.We have now concluded 2022 with a total revenue of NOK 112 million and with this a compound growth rate of 27% between '19 and '22. We have that achieved with partners like Siemens, Beckman Coulter and Roche which are the top IVD companies in the world. We have in total more. Some of them don't want to be named, maybe later. But all-in-all, those partnerships are very fruitful and we believe we are able to achieve and spend more in the future.And with this, it's my pleasure now to hand over to Njaal to look a little bit into what we achieved in Q4 and as well in the total year. Thank you.
Thank you, Hilja. So I will give a rundown of the financial figures, and some of the most significant changes that we have experienced during the quarter and the full year 2022.So today we report sales of NOK 27.9 million for the fourth quarter and this is 28% up from last quarter if we adjust last quarter or the quarter 4, 2021. Sorry for that. If we adjust for currency tailwinds, the organic growth is 23%. So that's a strong growth compared to the fourth quarter last year.Full year revenues also increased, so sales revenues increased to NOK 101.6 million for 2022, which is 21% organic growth compared to '21. EBITDA for the quarter was minus NOK 1.5 million, which is a strong improvement from a minus NOK 8.5 million in the corresponding quarter last year.Other significant highlights. I would say we entered into 4 strategic partnerships, distribution contracts with major IVD players in '22. And the last one we announced that was for GCAL, was entered into in the fourth quarter.For those of you who follow us, we have said that we have a target of entering into one strategic contract per year, so this was clearly a very good year for that yardstick.If we look a little bit deeper into then -- into the sales numbers. Let's start with the geographical split of sales, where we see first of all, a very positive growth in the U.S. where we have seen revenues increasing from NOK 2.5 million last year to NOK 6.5 million this year, so that's almost a multiplier by 3.In Europe, we also see strong growth, 29% for the full year compared to last year. While in Asia, we have actually seen a decline on 6%. And this decline is due to, and solely due to Cystatin C sales in China, where we have actually seen a reduction in demand, and the explanation is disturbances and closures due to the COVID lockdown that has lasted for quite a long time in China. We now see them -- we now see these lockdowns being opened up, relieved, and therefore we should expect to see the sales to China normalize during 2023.If we look at the product split. So as you can see, China and Cystatin C, we still have growth for the full year, NOK 40 million. So it's our biggest product, Cystatin C, versus NOK 36 million in 2021. And while the -- really the growth driver in '22 was a fCAL turbo where we have increased our sales by more than 30%.Other revenues, those are some of the smaller products like fPELA and CCRP, and we also have the third-party distribution business that we run out of Sweden where we serve the Nordic market or at least Norway, Sweden, Finland with third-party products. So products that are not made by us. Also, strong growth in 2022.Looking at the cost -- cost development, hopefully, the right slide is on the screen now. Yes. Cost development, quite stable. And we, in fact, we report an OpEx, which is the same or similar to the OpEx that we reported in 2021 of NOK 72.3 million for the full year.Now a few comments to that OpEx. In 2021, we had some one-offs, especially on the administration expenses, as we commissioned a new ERP system. And we then said that we expected cost to -- administration costs to decline again in '22, and I'm happy to report that, that has been the case.When we look at sales and marketing expenses, the increase here is, of course, related to higher on-the-ground activity as a result of less restrictions due to COVID. So we have a lot of the more conventional sales initiatives like big conferences and also visiting customers physically that has started again. So a lot of these costs are related to travel and conferences and direct sales and marketing initiatives.R&D spend, I'd say, quite stable, a bit down in 2022. And again, keep in mind that towards the end of 2021, we were in the phase of completing the SARS-CoV-2 antibody assay, which drove up R&D cost a bit.Just a summary. If we look also a bit on the balance sheet, our cash position is NOK 81.6 million, still a strong cash position. CapEx in the quarter was NOK 1.1 million. We expect a significant reduction in cash flow in '23 compared to 2022, and that is due to the fact that in 2022, we had a major project here in our production facility to double the size and to more than double the capacity that we have here. And that resulted in higher than normal CapEx.I'm pleased to report that, that project has been completed. So we don't see any additional CapEx related to the plant here itself. There will be some new equipment here and there, but that is not something that will drive a significant increase in CapEx compared to what you have seen here in the fourth quarter.Still a strong equity ratio of 82%, free cash flow of minus NOK 11.6 million in the quarter. Free cash flow positive pre-R&D that is for the full year, and we will see quarters where we don't achieve that.But in general, if we were to, let's say, isolate R&D and all the projects that are not yet contributing to the top line, well, then our cost base would, in fact, be profitable or result in profitability. So we are getting there step-by-step.And of course, with a strong growth, above 20%, I think it's now the fifth consecutive year that we have growth rates, sales growth of about -- above 20%. And we do not expect, over time, the cost to follow that. So profitability will come back after certain point.Summary and outlook. So what we report today is the result of these 4 established products that we have in the market and continues to grow strongly. In fact, more than 20% annually. In addition, we also have GCAL, which I think we can speak about later during the Q&A.But we -- the plan here is to still prove clinical relevance of GCAL. And I think that with a number of studies out there and also the study that was released yesterday, and other studies that we had in the pipeline, we start to build a strong base of evidence for clinical relevance for GCAL. And of course, the other major opportunity here is in the pipeline, and that is to bring NT-proBNP to the market.On the tail of that, we also have a pipeline, and our ambition is to bring, let's say, a steady stream of products to the market. And I will get back to that in the pipeline. We do have a few projects that we are working towards proof of concept.And as I said, on the commercial side, we aim to secure one new contract with a major IVD player every year, and we made no change to that ambition in 2023. Of course, with increasing revenues, we also think that the margins will improve. We aim to, in the long run, our gross margins at 60% compared to currently around 50%.And once we have some of these high potential markets like GCAL and NT-proBNP contributing on the top line, we should see a long-term EBITDA margin of 40%. So that's the targets, and these are more of the long-term ambitions that we have.If we look at the outlook for the next 12 to 18 months, what we are looking to do. And on the established products, so that's Cystatin C, fCAL turbo, fPELA and CCRP, we are targeting additional deals with both large IVD companies and also, let's say, medium-sized companies with maybe a strong regional market position or a strong product position in some niches.And of course, geographic expansion is also something that we look into in this industry. You need a regulatory approval if you're going into new territories.For GCAL, as I said, we are looking into announcing even more studies than we have done. But the studies that we have and the base of studies, which is now building on calprotectin and GCAL, is, to a large extent, confirming what we see. And it will now be an exercise of turning those studies and all this clinical evidence into revenues.And one of the levers that we are utilizing there is also then to seek endorsement of key opinion leaders. Those are the experts around the world on, for instance, sepsis and infections that GCAL is addressing. And of course, for GCAL, we are open for business. So we are attempting and we have an aim of securing more partnerships and also entering into new regions.For NT-proBNP, as Hilja mentioned, the aim here over the coming year is to successfully optimize the assay, and it is to seek also here endorsement and buy-in from key opinion leaders. And as we mentioned in the report, there is already commercial interest for the assay. And of course, we will continue to work on building momentum upon the launch.On the pipeline side, as we said, we have 2 markers that we work towards proof of concept work, and we will come back to those markers when proof of concept is announced. That is the way we announced. And of course, in -- before proof or concept, there is this exploration, very early phase, where we also have deals and where we do exploratory work.So I think that concludes the presentation, the prepared slides. I see that there are some -- there are some questions coming in here. I'm starting to read them out now.Before this Q&A, I would like to introduce our Chief Commercial Officer, Markus Jaquemar which will be able to assist me on the -- on some of the answers.
And I think let's start with a question here which goes into -- which goes into sales, Markus. It says, you've signed 4 agreements last year, but the sales growth is not increasing. And the question is, what will it take to accelerate the growth rate?
Yes. So first of all, an agreement itself does not automatically increase sales as of that moment. That means it means implementation and execution of a common plan. So we do expect acceleration in 2023 and '24 from those concluded agreements, first of all.Secondly, we, as Njaal mentioned, we aim to conclude additional agreements to further accelerate the growth. So our partner model is the basis of our business, and we continue to focus on that.
Okay. Thank you. I'll also add that, as you grow 20% growth from, let's say, NOK 100 million is, of course, in monetary terms, it will give in absolute numbers twice as much growth as if you have 20% from, let's say, NOK 50 million.Another question here. Let's try to find another commercial question. You have steady sales growth, but the results are still negative. Do you have sufficient cash to carry your current strategy?I think, I can answer that. Yes, we have NOK 80 million in cash. And with now sales increasing, costs more or less stabilized, we really see a reduction in the cash burn. And we have previously stated that the current business plan is fully funded in the short term. So for the next 1 or 2 years, I'm not worried about the cash position. And as long as we continue the growth that we have planned, we should have sufficient cash, yes.Pipeline -- just a little visibility on the pipeline. Can you share some details on the 2 markers in proof of concept?In fact, our policy is to not disclose a lot on pipeline projects, and that is due to the fact that we are in a very risky phase, and we do not want to, let's say, give too much detailed information about something that may not occur.But to say, I think what we are looking at in terms of all proof of concept when it comes to markers is to continue the theme that we are on, which is infection, cardiac, kidney to a large extent, and infection because also inflammation. And that's what I can say about that.And what I can promise is that we will come back with a lot more detailed information, elaborate information once proof of concept has been reached because then we have a stronger degree of derisking.I think, well, I'll read a few of the questions coming in here. More question for you, Markus. We announced yesterday the results of the study performed by the Karolinska Institute where they have used our GCAL assay. I think it may be difficult for some of our investors really to understand the importance of that study. Would you be able to qualify and put it a little bit in context?I mean, first of all, what is Karolinska's position out there? And secondly, what does it mean that we now have a study that concludes that we can, in fact, use GCAL as a differentiator in the diagnosis of sepsis.
So it's a very significant study that was published by Karolinska. And Karolinska is a leading European institution, a global institution in terms of hospital treatment. So the largest hospital in Sweden, obviously. So the outcome of this study is very significant, and it was based on 350 patients actually, which were submitted to the emergency department with signs of severe infection.Now what is very important is that, at that point of time, a decision is taken, am I taking those patients to even further treatment in intensive care units? That means very intensive treatments and making sure that the survival rate is actually increased versus submitting them to general awards. And that has been a big challenge in the past. There are existing biomarkers today that are used. At the same time, there's a multidisciplinary group of clinicians that study the patient and take that decision.Now what the study suggests and actually demonstrates is that using calprotectin, in this case, for the study, it's better -- gives a better indication which patient has to be moved to intensive care, thus improving essentially better treatment and higher survival rate prediction of severe infection.And so GCAL provided better results than any other biomarker which was used in the study. So that's very significant. Sepsis is a significant event, and there are 60 million deaths globally associated with sepsis.
Can you also say something about how are we using these studies and these clinical results to let say they try to convert them into sales revenue?
Yes. So we have intensive activities around conferences and congresses where actually we present the outcomes together with key opinion leaders and actually study proponents, right, to demonstrate the clinical benefit.And we discuss that with partners. We have, as you mentioned, global partners, which introduced the positioning and how these can be transferred into clinical benefits on a global marketing level in a joint initiative.
Thank you. Very interesting. Very interesting. Another question regarding studies, actually, I see on the screen here, it says there are a more positive research around Cystatin C. We are also seeing that. And the question is, are you expecting more sales for this marker or more partnerships?
The answer is yes. And I'm very happy about the question, because Cystatin C has been in the market for 15, 16 years. And it's now accelerating in terms of understanding the benefit of Cystatin C as a better marker for diagnosing chronic kidney disease. Now the initiative or the acceleration started in the U.S. where a guideline was introduced to use Cystatin C as an additional marker to diagnose patients with CKD. Interestingly, just a few days ago, a study was published in Europe which also recommends the use of Cystatin C with a new algorithm to actually determine what's called the eGFR. So the glomerular filtration rate, which determines the health state of a kidney and suggests to also use that biomarker, Cystatin C, in conjunction with the existing markers.So very interesting, and the answer is, yes, we're expecting more partnership and more sales in also additional regions outside the U.S.
I think we have earlier had questions about, let's say, what is the growth potential of Cystatin C. It's an established marker. We have sold it for many years and maybe the perception out there has been that this is a mature market with maybe a limited growth potential. Any comments to that?
Yes. Essentially biomarker sector, Cystatin C, while they're innovative, they're not necessarily part of guidelines and reimbursement schedules. And with increasing visibility of benefits they are introduced into those schedules, which means then that clearly accelerates the usage of these biomarkers and thus the market will grow.I agree it has been -- it's an established marker, but it's an established marker in very niche applications so far. And that I'm very positive will change.
Thank you. Another question on sales here. Good presentation. Thank you. As is the question, any details on U.S. sales going forward, new distribution agreement, Tier 1 or also Tier 2 customer focus?
Very good question. So we are very closely watching both Tier 1 and Tier 2 potential business partners, the Tier 1 being really the big 5 diagnostic companies, which are the known Roche and Abbott, Beckman Coulter, Siemens and also Quidel. But we're also looking at the second tier companies. And yes, I'm expecting additional collaborations in the U.S., expanding our sales in that region.
Okay. Thank you. And a direct question to you, Markus. It says, how strong do you feel Gentian products are in terms of competitiveness versus the competition?
So first of all, we don't have me-too products. That means our products are differentiated. They have a very specific benefit. We don't compete for the low-margin me-too kind of products in the clinical diagnostics market. And our competition is there. Competition all accelerates the market, I have to say. So we are very well positioned because we always aim for highest quality which is proven by external quality control measures. So I think we're very well positioned.
Thank you. Looking back here, a question on NT-proBNP. It says, it's now 1.5 years since you informed the market about challenges in developing NT-proBNP. So far, you have shared very little about the progress or lack thereof. And the question is, are you getting closer to a point where you can open the lid and share some details and, I think, time line, yes. So today -- in today's report and presentation, we are giving a few more details about the development and what we are working on NT-proBNP. When it comes to the time line, we strongly believe that when you provide the time line, it should be something that we can commit to and that we have a plan towards.We are still in a phase where, let's say, the development of NT-proBNP is a little bit like you take 2 steps forward and you take one step back. You make improvements on one element of the development, which can result in a setback in something you have previously resolved.We are still working on items like stability, look to variation. We, today, also speak about the calibration. And to put up a time line with that amount of uncertainty is really not something that we think would be helpful. What we have said is that once optimization, which is the most risky and difficult phase for this project, once that is completed, then we are looking at the 12 to 18 months remaining development time.And I think there is a similar question just below that. And it says, it looks now that you will not have a new marker on the market for several years. Has the change in strategy and through priority on the challenges of NT-proBNP being the right one?So I think honestly, I think the jury is still out on that. But having said that, NT-proBNP opportunity that we believe that this market represents is so big that it makes more sense to try to continue the development of that marker into a success rather than having closed down that project and started the development of the markers, which probably would have had a lower potential.So I think so far, we are still confident that we will be able to successfully develop NT-proBNP. And therefore, it is right to continue. But it is -- having said that, it is a correct assessment that the development of NT-proBNP to a certain extent, results in delays of the products, because we have it now, let's say, a lot of our R&D resources on the development of NT-proBNP.Let's see, are there any other questions? Are there any other questions here? I think one question or let's see, a comment here.We have touched upon earlier -- in earlier presentations, Markus is the U.S. market. And we have last year or '21, we had NOK 2.5 million of sales in the U.S. And this year or in 2022, we had NOK 6.5 million, it's, of course, tremendous growth. But in absolute numbers, it is small. I mean, comparable in Europe and Asia, we have, let's say, EUR 30 million, EUR 40 million of revenues, is there any reason why the U.S. shouldn't have at least the same sales in absolute numbers?
First of all, the U.S. number represents our direct sales to the U.S. through partners, there's additional revenue, which actually generated in the U.S., if you look at the big picture. But overall, the U.S. represents 40% of the global IVD market. So therefore, this is obviously the 800-pound gorilla where you want to go to.Regulatory perspective-wise, obviously, you have an FDA obstacles to overcome, which we have some products, Cystatin C being one of them, which is one of the reasons for its success. So we're aiming, obviously, our new products to also make accessible to the market.We are in the process of understanding the market dynamics in U.S. because they are specific. They're not comparable to Europe. And yes, we have a big focus on to the U.S. And is there a big potential? Absolutely, yes. But you cannot address it in a naive manner. You need to address market access boundaries and regulatory requirements, and that's what we're working.
Cystatin C, there we have the FDA 510(k) clearance.
Yes.
For fCAL and fPELA, that's also [ funded ] to the U.S. market, right?
So fCAL turbo, a commercialized partner agreement is 510(k) approved, absolutely. That's why there are sales in U.S. fCAL turbo. And fPELA is actually an FDA -- it doesn't have a requirement for FDA approval.
So it's FDA accept. And obviously, we also sell CCRP which is a --
And CCRP is actually a nice marker which has been -- has had nice performance in 2022. In fact, especially also in the U.S., where 3 of the top veterinary institutions are our customers for CCRP.
Okay. I think we have gone through the list of questions here. I would like to thank all of you, all the participants, both behind the camera here for facilitating this webcast, and also to the audience. I hope that you have had good answers to your questions.We will be back with the quarter 1 presentation in due time. If you have any other questions or is there something you'd like to discuss with us, please feel free to contact us. And yes, I think I'll leave it at that. So thank you very much for attending this webcast.