WithSecure Oyj

OMXH:WITH

Earnings Call Analysis

Earnings Call Transcript 2024-Q1

[Laura Viita, executive]

Hello and good afternoon from WithSecure. Here in Helsinki, Finland, we are just through, what we hope, was the last snowstorm before the summer. A couple of brave individuals made their way through the snowy streets to the room, and we have lots of others on the webcast. So welcome wherever you are to this first quarter 2024 results release. My name is Laura Viita, I'm the Investor Relations Director of WithSecure. As you might know, we had a sudden change of CEO just a few weeks ago. Today, we have our Interim CEO, Antti Koskela joining us for the first time. Antti is our Chief Product Officer. He has been with the company as part of the global leadership team since 2021. More about Antti, you can find on our website.And I believe that Antti's deep knowledge of our products will also be beneficial for our investor communications. For example, everything I know about cybersecurity is largely thanks to Antti and his team. So looking forward to that.Our CFO Tom Jansson, whom you know, was attacked by a virus, not a computer virus, because we are well protected here, but a real life virus. And therefore he's attending us today online. And he will go through the first quarter financials and talk about the '24 outlook.We will take questions and answers at the end. If you're following us over the webcast, please post the questions anytime. I will pick them up at the end and ask them to these gents.So now a warm welcome to the Interim CEO of WithSecure, Antti Koskela, floor is yours.

[Antti Koskela, executive]

So thank you, Laura for the introduction, and welcome from my part to WithSecure. This is my first time in the quarter 1 briefing and I tried to do honor for the company and to Tom as well there.So what I would like to go through first is the first quarter highlights. I have 2 slides. I will go through them. The important thing here is that we started with our strategy to become partner-led, mid-market centric SaaS company in cybersecurity. And then we concluded as a part of our strategy that we have consulting business and cloud protection for Salesforce that are slightly different.So our strategy is unchanged. We go full ahead with Elements driven company and we continue the strategic reviews. But what we did is that as we are operating the business in 3 segments, so you will now have access to the segments, which we published on Monday.Hopefully, that gives greater visibility for the business in terms of opportunity and profitability, and it answers some of the questions that have been previously asked in these sessions.Elements Company, we faced, of course, the normal macroeconomic situation in Europe and some of the seasonality in Q1 and slowness in decision making. But despite that, we are reasonably happy that we clocked in third consecutive growth quarter in ARR terms.Our ARR grew 10% year on year, 3% in the quarter. And our cloud revenue grew 10%. Important to note here when I'm using the term cloud, I'm using the new definition, Elements Cloud product and services. That's the reference to the word cloud in this presentation.Elements Company revenue grew 6%. And when we look at deeper what's underneath the numbers, within the Elements Cloud, we have a capability called detection and response, EDR, that is driving the growth quite a bit. MDR, our countercept offer is at the previously level.And when we look at the regions, so we saw the German speaking Europe, the DACH region, Finland and France driving the growth. We had some challenges in U.K. and Japan. We had quite many renewals in these countries.And these are key countries, we call them regions in our operational model, where we develop our business, and especially, develop our channel business, partner business with regards to Elements Cloud. So I'm quite positive about the outlook and that's the reason why we chose these 2 markets.Then going to a familiar area of mine, which is, of course, the products. And mid-market, which is our chosen segment in the strategy, these customers are chronically underserved and they don't have access to the resources that are needed against these automated digital cybercriminals. So it doesn't matter whether you are small or large, you are faced with the same automated attacks.So what these small companies need to do then? Of course, they need to have a good endpoint strategy. And when we say endpoint, it's not just the endpoint protection and detection. We actually are -- we already have cloud detection, identity detection coming in the systems. That's one part of it.But the key thing here is that, that's not the only thing that is needed. What's opening a new opportunity for WithSecure, and I believe every mid-market customer needs to buy this, is because you need to understand what are your weak spots in your digital infrastructure, how potential attackers come in and how you proactively manage that risk. That is exposure management.Large companies are doing that, because they have skills and resources. Small companies need to do it, because they are faced with the same attacks. So we have had we signed early access program for this one. We have a good partner uptake on that one, and we will officially launch this in our SPHERE event.Also happy to report that we have now 600 people coming to the SPHERE. We believe we will sell out still the event as we move on. So we have capacity for 650. So it's a platform where we talk with our partners and customers. And hopefully, see some of you over there as well.So when we look at these 2 other businesses, these are the businesses which are under strategic review and they continue to be under the strategic review. So first, let's remind what's Cloud Protection for Salesforce is all about.So when you are working as a Salesforce customer, especially when you are using community cloud or service cloud, you are having your third parties in the system. So you are exposing yourself. So we have proven that value prop, and we have a solution for that.So we grew quite steadily to this level, but we have hit some growth pains here in the business. And some customers has adjusted their license usage. And our ARR is roughly at the previously level. So it has been relatively flat. But we have stabilized the business now.And when I double click inside the business, the value prop is proven. I believe there's still a growth opportunity there going forward. And that's what we are -- that's why we are driving the business further.And Tom will comment a little bit on the NRR trend, which is NRR 87%. It's one part of the story. Some of that -- some part of that we will recover later this year. Tom will talk more about that one, which is an important metric for us.In cyber security consulting, I think some of you were here in the Q4, Q3 events with us. And we have clearly said we have a strong backlog for Q1. So we have a strong backlog. So what then happened?So what happened is that few customers, especially one very large customer, decided to delay the start of the projects. So we are not obviously satisfied with the consulting performance during Q1. But we believe the value prop is sound and we have ability to improve that during the year.We continue with the strategic review as planned. So the strategy we have in the company is to move company to partner driven SaaS company that -- in the cyber security field focused on the mid-market. Unchanged -- strategy unchanged.And I would like to thank Juhani for leading the company until this point, driving all the transformation. And so me and Tom and rest of the team, we will drive now company further with the strategy we have. And it's definitely about strategy execution now as we move further.So I want to remove any doubt about the focus in the strategy and remove any doubt about our strategy to conduct strategic reviews for these 2 businesses.So with this one, maybe I turn over you to Tom, so that why don't you go through the financials?

[Tom Jansson, executive]

Thank you, Antti. And as we have moved to segment reporting, we are going to go through the numbers in the future also by segment.So, first of all, the Elements Company, just checking that we have the right slide on the screen there also.

[Antti Koskela, executive]

Now we do. So we had a bit of a moment that when I changed from third to fourth, it went to beginning. But now we are on the right one.

[Tom Jansson, executive]

Okay. Good. Because I'm seeing Elements company's. Anyway, so as Antti mentioned, the macroeconomic environment continues not to be the best, and we can see some impacts on that. But our Cloud ARR grew 10% year-over-year and also, as mentioned, this is the third quarter, though, that we are growing at least some.And in terms of our -- looking at it from our regional perspective, DACH, Finland, and France are doing quite as expected, while U.K. and Japan, we have some work to do in order to get where we want to do, to get and so on.NRR 101%, of course, this is also an area where we need to continue to develop and improve because these are not the levels we are expecting to be in the future. On-premise decline, as expected, and then we also have a few minor revenue streams that we separated out in this segment in order not to have them impact the other numbers. These are very small revenue streams that we call other.And then of course, our cost savings measures that we took all year last year, now we can also see some of that in Elements Company where we posted a positive EBITDA of EUR 1 million in the first quarter.Then we go to the Cloud Protection for Salesforce. This has been quite flattish in the last quarters. We do see a good pipeline. And as I said, we continue to have a very unique solution to this area. And we continue to work on that and we do expect this to return to growth in the future.The NRR, 87%. This is really impacted by one significant customer in Q3 had changed their buying behavior dramatically for us. So therefore, that had a big impact on NRR. This will correct itself in Q3 this year, but for the time being, that's of course, a fairly significant impact due to the volume of that customer.Here also in the Cloud Protection for Salesforce we are improving our profitability and we have made some cost measures here also previously.Then the cyber security consulting, as said, we started the year with a very strong backlog. We still have a strong backlog. We had one major customer that then decided that they delay their projects and really started at the end of the quarter. We do expect, though that, that will pick up later in the year and the overall year still -- also for them will be as planned.But that, of course, along with a few other smaller adjustments with large customers that had a pretty big impact on us in Q1. And this, of course, then had an impact also on our efficiency and our gross margin and EBITDA that was slightly negative because of that in Q1.Overall, as said, 3% growth for full company and also breakeven on an adjusted EBITDA level. Then you can also see our operating expenses that the cost measures that we did last year is coming through. Our comparable OpEx from last year Q1 to this year is now EUR 7.2 million lower, and that of course, is a result of all the hard work and unfortunate things we had to do last year.Then just a very quick update as part of the segment reallocation. We also have done a goodwill reallocation and you can see the impact of that. You can see here just as an information for those who also look at the goodwill on our books.Then our outlook is unchanged and our annual recurring revenue for Elements Cloud products and services, we are expecting that to grow 10% to 20% and then the revenue like 10% to 16%, the overall company revenue 6% to 12%, and we expect to have a full year positive EBITDA this year.So that was a really quick run through the numbers and I think we are ready with Antti to take questions.

[Matti Riikonen, analyst]

It's Matti Riikonen, Carnegie. A couple of questions. I'll take them one by one. First of all, you had some disappointments in consulting and Cloud Protection for Salesforce, did Q1 otherwise deviate from your internal expectations?

[Antti Koskela, executive]

So if I start with that one, so we are really happy with the growth in the Elements Company segment and with the ARR growth in these macroeconomic situations. And also we are happy with the positive result it generated, and in a way, carried the whole company, and that's what we are pleased about. This delayed starts of the project in consulting we can't be pleased about, and I do expect those to be one of a kind in this and with the consulting leadership we drive more consistent performance on the consulting going forward.Cloud protection, on the other hand, there as I mentioned, it has been a year of stabilizing the business. But we won a number of new logos also during Q1 and the opportunity is there because the value prop is strong. But we need to turn the company -- that segment back to growth trajectory that needless to say. And -- but Q1, it has been flattish, I think, from that point of view and that's not the performance you expect in the SaaS company.

[Matti Riikonen, analyst]

Right. So regarding consulting if we see that okay there was a delay in Q1, do you think that you will get that all revenue that you expected from this big customer going forward, so that you're not losing the customer, it's just being extended to the next quarters.

[Antti Koskela, executive]

So we are definitely not losing the customer. And maybe Tom you could comment how the revenue generation point, how does it look?

[Tom Jansson, executive]

Yes. Thanks Antti. So we are expecting to get the revenue expected for this year also from that customer. So we expect some catch-up later in the year.

[Matti Riikonen, analyst]

All right. Then you started to talk about the fairly low NRR in the Cloud Protection for Salesforce business, so was it just this one customer that kind of postponed their activities? Do you expect that revenue from that specific customer to materialize in the coming quarters in full or have you lost the customer?

[Antti Koskela, executive]

We have not lost the customer. And as Tom mentioned, towards the latter part of the year, we expect that customer to recover. There has been, as a part of the scrutiny in IT spending, there has been a churn related to looking at the licensing levels in the company. That is, obviously, one part of the NRR, and there have been some churn cases. But this one item is such a major contributor that's why we mentioned it here. But the key thing in the business, we drive it to normal NRR levels and then we bring new customers on board and I think that's the growth formula for us.

[Matti Riikonen, analyst]

All right. Then just regarding Elements portfolio and the modules in it. You didn't that much talk about EPP inside Elements. So has the EPP sales been flat or has it been even declining?

[Antti Koskela, executive]

I would say -- I would like to talk about Elements Cloud as a whole. So I view the business so that we have extended detection and response and then we have exposure parts within the Elements Cloud family. And historically, we have been looking at EPP, Endpoint Protection, as a separate things. That's where we have come from.But what the mid-market is looking at, they're looking endpoint protection, detection and response as an integrated solution. And not only with endpoints, but having identity protection, detection and response, cloud protection and response, like is expected in the modern SaaS state. That's how our offering is becoming, so that instead of having [ stove ] by-products, we have more security capabilities that we can sell as individual modules.So to answer your question, EPP is selling as standalone. We have a lot of business. But we want to upsell on that base a lot more EDR and other modules into that mix and that's driving the growth.

[Matti Riikonen, analyst]

All right. The purpose of my question was that, if we're looking at EPP and EDR as combined, as you said, it might be difficult to kind of separate them. What would be the combined business or sales from EPP and EDR? Would it still be kind of growing as you mentioned that EDR is growing?

[Antti Koskela, executive]

It is growing. Combined is growing.

[Atte Riikola, analyst]

It's Atte Riikola from Inderes. Maybe first about the overall question for the Chief Product Officer. So when you're looking at the WithSecure's, let's say, Elements portfolio, how do you see it? How does it look like and what's like -- how competitive it's against competitors?

[Antti Koskela, executive]

So as we have talked here many times previously, we are mainly faced with the U.S.-based competition and a lot of the industry analysts look at the large enterprise segments and the offerings there. And we are focused on the mid-market. So by definition, our products are highly automated, and so we are not providing tools for humans to read, like often is requirements in enterprise. We are providing tools that solve the problem, and human is not handling it.So we have a lot of independent ratings, like it was SoftwareReviews this year that gave us kind of a leading rating. There are other sources I look at than some of the, for instance, Gartners of the world. Of course, those are important, but there are others.So I think we are competitive with the chosen strategy segment, and it's important to note that those technologies and products actually look slightly different from the large enterprises, that's also a reason for the focus. So what we need to improve and what we will be launching, so things around cloud, things around identity, so those we will complement, because mid-market companies are in the SaaS space. And then when you are in the SaaS space, you are faced with all the cyber criminals of the world. That's why we launched Exposure.So I think we are getting the portfolio together and I'm actually quite excited what we are going to launch in SPHERE and maybe then we can have a deeper discussion on as well. Because I think we've been in a very good place with the offering.

[Atte Riikola, analyst]

Next question actually was about the Exposure Management product. What kind of expectation you have for that? Let's say, are you expecting that it will support your revenues in, let's say, the second half of the year in a meaningful way?

[Antti Koskela, executive]

So all the modules in the Elements Cloud, they are part of the segment that we have with the Cloud ARR growth and that's reflected in the 10% to 20% ARR guidance.

[Atte Riikola, analyst]

All right. Then about consulting, if we look at your quarterly numbers, the Q4 was actually very strong. Was it like 19% EBITA margin and now it was again negative. So I know that from seasonality point of view, the Q4 is always the strongest. But was it like extraordinarily strong? And I'm just trying to figure out what kind of the -- after all the restructuring, what is like the normalized profitability level for that business, let's say, when you get back on track there?

[Antti Koskela, executive]

I would say that we, clearly -- what drove the margin down is the utilization question, so that this business is a function of the people we have as well. So we are matching demand to the supply, that's what you do there. So EUR 10 million would be on the higher end of what we can do with existing people. But maybe Tom, you could give, what's your thought on that one. This quarter was definitely lower.

[Tom Jansson, executive]

Yeah, I would say that this quarter was very low and not what we expected. So Q4 was, in my view, a normal Q4. As you said, it's stronger usually then.

[Atte Riikola, analyst]

All right. And last question from me is about your outlook. It's still like indicating accelerating growth in the coming quarter. So what kind of visibility you have for that to happen?

[Antti Koskela, executive]

I often look at the trends, how this has been developing. So if I look at the growth -- ARR growth, 3% now in quarter 1, 6% in Q4. We had growth in Q3. So we actually turned this Elements Cloud engine in the last 3 quarters to growth mode. I think I'm confident that we stay on that trajectory, so then we are well within the 10% to 20% ARR guidance on that one.In terms of, of course, ARR turns in cloud business into revenue with the model, as you know. And then on our revenue guidance, of course, what we do with the consulting plays a role, because there you win the project and you deliver them often during the year. So it works differently as a business. Tom, anything you want to add?

[Tom Jansson, executive]

No, I fully concur and that we stay with our outlook.

[Waltteri Rossi, analyst]

Waltteri Rossi from Danske Bank. Few questions as well. Well, first of all, you said that you lost a customer in both consulting and in cloud protection. It wasn't the same customer.

[Antti Koskela, executive]

It wasn't the same customer. And to be precise, we did not lose the customer in consulting. We had a strong backlog with the customer. The customer decided to start project later in the quarter and they started late March. But it had such a big significance on our revenue generation with that particular customer. That was what we said.In cloud protection with one customer, there has been an adjustment on the spending, but that will recover later in the year. So we haven't lost a customer either -- a different customer.

[Waltteri Rossi, analyst]

Yes, sorry, I misspoke. But thanks for the clarification. Then again question on the fact that you're looking for a minority investment for the cloud protection business. Why wouldn't you kind of fund the future yourselves? I mean, looking at the balance sheet, you have money. And how much are you looking for that business?

[Antti Koskela, executive]

So too early to go to answers on those ones, but what we have talked earlier as well, the strategic logic to look for option in Cloud Protection for Salesforce is to accelerate the growth. And I think that's what we are contemplating here, in consulting the drivers might be different.But in both of the cases, the important thing is to note that these work with different segments, more with the larger enterprise, which is not that much linked to the core Elements Company mission, which is partner-centric mid-market. So that there's less fit, that's why these are quite different businesses. So that's our thinking. So, theoretically, we could do that, but still it doesn't bring the strategic logic for that.

[Waltteri Rossi, analyst]

Okay, so are you looking also like a strategic partner in a way in the cloud protection business?

[Antti Koskela, executive]

Yes. So too early to say on that one. And, I'll maybe say on the strategic projects is that, I repeat what we have communicated previously that in Cloud Protection for Salesforce, we probably it's more latter part of the year question when we come with the answer and -- then consulting. But we will update in due time on those. I know there's a lot of pent up need to get the answers. But I think, hopefully, you can take the somewhat vague answers we are giving today. So that's what we are willing to disclose today.

[Waltteri Rossi, analyst]

Still one more regarding the potential divestments. Well, let's say if and when you're going to divest the consulting business, how efficiently can you kind of scale down and adjust the cost base that you'll be left with basically? You'll be left with a lower gross profit, but the same fixed costs, right?

[Antti Koskela, executive]

So let's start when we have in a way organized this in the company, all these units have own sales, own R&D, own operations. Then we have also some dedicated people also helping this unit. So that's what we have done in the last year organization, internally.But I think more important is that, the consulting value proposition to be a research led consulting is a strong one, and it's manifested by some of the largest companies of the world. So we have patience to develop the business so that it gets the true value.

[Waltteri Rossi, analyst]

Okay. But just to clarify, like, if parts of the company were to be divested, would the margins that we see now in the cloud business Elements Company, would they kind of hold?

[Antti Koskela, executive]

Margins would hold.

[Waltteri Rossi, analyst]

Then just for a new CEO, a kind of overall question. If we look at the market -- cyber security market, I think there's a pretty big trend where we see big companies like Microsoft and CrowdStrike gaining more and more market share. They're growing over 30% still even during the weak market, but smaller ones are having trouble, kind of against the bigger marketing budgets, if I read it correctly. How do you comment that -- how can you compete against this in the long term?

[Antti Koskela, executive]

Yes, I would much rather -- it's always tempting to look at competition. We have a lot of U.S.-based competition, and we are confident that the strategic directions we are taking. So we have a strong partner network, and we usually serve the underserved segment, which is the mid-market. We are also becoming a true European alternative, and we have a focused market segment.And then we build all our offerings and products and services, so that the partner who is local can meet the needs of the mid-market customer, and they are often different. So if you take these large enterprises as a comparison, mid-market companies might necessarily have a security person. They would be lucky to have an IT person or 2. And these people usually are overwhelmed. And -- so that the partner and the offering needs to help that context, not security professional, for instance, of a large bank.So in a way, these technologies are diverging, in my view, and solutions, and that gives me confidence that with this automated approach to cybersecurity, we have a good spot there. But it requires diligent execution.

[Matti Riikonen, analyst]

2 more questions. Matti Riikonen, Carnegie. First of all, technical one. If we look at your on-premise business, are there any, or does the geographic split of on-premise sales differentiate from the rest of the Elements Cloud business? I.e. is it more geared towards, let's say, Scandinavian countries or are there kind of differences in the geographic split?

[Antti Koskela, executive]

We haven't opened up that one. But I could say, for instance, the region Japan is a -- a large portion of the on-premise comes from there. And that's exactly what we are doing there, is that we are moving together with the partners' customers to Elements Cloud direction. But there is maybe more concentration in Japan than rest of the regions.

[Matti Riikonen, analyst]

All right. And so far, what is your experience that do all on-premise customers convert to cloud eventually, or is there risk that you would lose some of the on-premise customers who don't want to move to cloud?

[Antti Koskela, executive]

Yes. So I think we are looking at 2 types of solutions for the topic, so that we aim to migrate vast majority of the on-premise customer and then we look various extended support arrangements then with the customers who are not willing to move. So that we are not in the business of leaving customers alone, but we want that customers go with us to the cloud direction, because that's right for them. But some customers might not take that option, but that's an exception. So we have a program going on to migrate continuously these customers.

[Matti Riikonen, analyst]

Okay. Then regarding the Cloud Protection for Salesforce, you have been talking about partnership potential and not necessarily a full divestment. And if we think that, that business requires further investments that in the longer term you are not willing to make, and that's the very reason you basically have it under strategic control, so that the remaining company would need to show that profitability is there, and we can clearly see that now in Elements Company which is profitable. So somebody needs to invest in the business in order to make it flourish. So what would be the motivation for the eventual partner to let you keep some share of the company if they are doing all the investment? That's something maybe you could open up.

[Antti Koskela, executive]

Yes. I think those very thoughts we are exploring with the strategic review. And I feel it's a bit too premature to comment on that. But I am confident that we find a strategic logic in this regard as we move on. Otherwise, we would have not started this one. I'm not answering directly your questions, but I think we'll answer it later.

[Matti Riikonen, analyst]

Okay. So basically, the old-fashioned divestment of the business is not excluded in your thinking when you are going through the process.

[Antti Koskela, executive]

It would be ideal if we have a strategic logic that we could get an accelerator. That would be ideal for us.

[Matti Riikonen, analyst]

All right. We are waiting eagerly to hear how it goes out.

[Laura Viita, executive]

All right. Thank you we'll move to --

[Antti Koskela, executive]

By the way, thank you for the questions so far.

[Laura Viita, executive]

-- to the questions from the line. So Antti, I'm combining a couple of questions, because this comes from several webcast followers.Can you comment on the timeline of the strategic reviews separately? When can we expect the conclusions to be made, and should we expect the change of CEO to have an impact on these processes?

[Antti Koskela, executive]

So first of all, the sudden change of CEO does not have any change on these processes, and that's important that you all record that.Second one, with regards to the strategic projects, we have earlier indicated some of the timelines, is that these are ongoing now. And we expect cloud protection conclusion rather towards the latter part of the year than the earlier part of the year. And that would be the answer today for that.

[Laura Viita, executive]

Thank you. I hope we have now concluded with that question.Then I'm moving on. There's Felix, our analyst on the line today. You did not mention a strong order backlog in consulting as you did in the Q4 report. What happened to this backlog and has the outlook for consulting in 2024 changed for the worse?

[Antti Koskela, executive]

So, Tom, is that something you could comment? I think you have.

[Tom Jansson, executive]

Yes, we have not specifically mentioned that now, but we have -- as we have in this discussion also mentioned it a few times that we continue to have a strong backlog going into this year.

[Laura Viita, executive]

Okay, then a continuation on that. Following a weak Q1 in consulting, do you need to take further time and actions to improve the profitability before a potential divestment?

[Antti Koskela, executive]

I think what we are saying all the time is that consulting is a business where you need to balance supply and demand. That is the nature of a service-driven business. And that's in our business management what we seek to do.We believe the trend line is more towards growing this -- definitely from this quarter. And I think that's what we are working towards.

[Laura Viita, executive]

Good, thank you. Then some of the large cyber security companies such as Palo Alto Networks and CrowdStrike mentioned increased price pressure from competitors in their most recent earnings calls. Is this something you have witnessed? And if so, is Microsoft the primary culprit for it?

[Antti Koskela, executive]

So would not like to comment on the competitors as such. But always when we work with the mid-market segment, which is our primary, we operate at the market price levels, which belong to that category. And we believe we are competitive in pricing in the mid-market segment.

[Laura Viita, executive]

Great. Then maybe Tom, a question for you. You increased the base year 2023 Elements Cloud revenue comparison figure on Monday in your '24 guidance. However, you kept the guidance for 10% to 16% growth intact. Can you please explain the reasoning for this?

[Tom Jansson, executive]

Yeah, this had to do with the new segment division of the company and there is no change to the outlook because of that. And that had already been internally taken into account.

[Laura Viita, executive]

Then we move on to Jaakko, our analyst. Have you got feedback on the strategic reviews impacting negatively the customer's decision making?

[Antti Koskela, executive]

So Tom, could you comment on that?

[Tom Jansson, executive]

Sure. So, no, we have not seen any effect of that from a customer perspective. As we have, and we've been very sensitive to that, and that has not been noticed anywhere.

[Laura Viita, executive]

Then the next question from Jaakko. What kind of actions or resources are needed to get Cloud Protection for Salesforce back to growth track?

[Antti Koskela, executive]

So it starts from the thing, it's that it is a proven value prop, especially for Salesforce Community Cloud and the service cloud users, where you have this situation that multiple users bring data to your service that runs on Salesforce. In a way, you have a responsibility as a Salesforce buyer for a third-party content that goes through that one. So that we have proven.So it is about continued proper sales engagement. It's about reversing the NRR trend that we had there. Doing small things well. I think that's what we are doing. We are quite optimistic with how the year-end would look like on that. But then it's just a lot of legwork. I think, I can't say anything else.

[Laura Viita, executive]

Well said. Okay, thanks Jaakko. Then David, our analyst, is also online today. First question, regarding the search for a CEO, will it necessarily be an external candidate or is the Board also considering existing employees or converting the interim role into a permanent one?

[Antti Koskela, executive]

So CEO selection in any company is a Board issue. And our Chairman and together with the Board, they will drive a structured process and with the duty of care to select the CEO.

[Laura Viita, executive]

Then maybe this is Tom for you. Could you give more details on the Elements NRR of 101%? Notably, are you seeing different churn dynamics? Or is the main issue still a lack of upsell?

[Antti Koskela, executive]

Can I, Tom, comment on that?

[Tom Jansson, executive]

Absolutely.

[Antti Koskela, executive]

Yeah, so if I look at the NRR 101%, remember there is Elements software, there is the MDR as a part of the segment. So we have seen maybe higher churn in the countercept customers, in the large enterprise grade, but we have been winning a lot more mid-market sized countercept customers. That's why we said countercept is a year-on-year on the same level, if you remember in the slide. That, of course, impacts the NRR. And then when you think that, that happens in a way that indicates that something is holding the line for 101%.

[Laura Viita, executive]

Thank you. So now no more questions right now in the chat. What about the room? Do you have additional questions? Yes. Okay, one more from France, from David.In Cloud Protection for Salesforce, could you detail the underlying trend excluding the large customer, which changed its behavior in Q3 last year?

[Antti Koskela, executive]

So the way we answered that today is that, we expect that to improve later part of the year. Once we are in the later part of the year, we will communicate the change, but now we report the numbers as they are.

[Laura Viita, executive]

All right. So any other questions? I think our chat is going quiet and the room is going quiet, so we can start wrapping up.

[Antti Koskela, executive]

Thank you so much everybody on the line for joining us and thank you people here in the room. So it has been quite eventful 2 weeks for me to onboard Interim CEO role and start with Q1 thing. And thank you for all the good questions, and hey, see you in July and many of you in SPHERE. So thank you.