T

Terveystalo Oyj
OMXH:TTALO

Watchlist Manager
Terveystalo Oyj
OMXH:TTALO
Watchlist
Price: 9.99 EUR 1.94% Market Closed
Market Cap: 1.3B EUR
Have any thoughts about
Terveystalo Oyj?
Write Note

Earnings Call Transcript

Earnings Call Transcript
2022-Q1

from 0
K
Kati Kaksone
executive

Good morning, everybody, and welcome to Terveystalo's Q1 2020 Results Call and Webcast. My name is Kati Kaksonen. I'm responsible for the Investor Communications, Investor Relations and Sustainability.

As usual, we'll have a short presentation prepared to you presented by our CEO, Ville Iho; and our CFO, Ilkka Laurila. And after the presentation, we will have time for your questions. And we will take questions first from the audience, then through the phone lines and afterwards through the webcast. So please feel free to send in your questions for the presenters.

Without further ado, I'll give over to Ville.

V
Ville Iho
executive

Thank you, Kati. Good morning from my behalf from sunny Helsinki. And very nice to know that it's been a while since we had also live audience in these events. And now we do have, which, of course, is very, very positive and manifests the fact that we are getting back to normal, and that's also part of the story line for Terveystalo during Q1, shifting demand environment.

Key headlines from the quarter, demand continues a strong growth has been remarkable for Terveystalo platform, year-on-year growth over 18%, and 10% of that one are from Finland. And I would say, for the material part, organic growth. COVID testing is still active, but sliding down as expected.

Core business is gaining scale. Growth has been good, and we have been gaining market share. And as we discussed, especially during last quarter, opportunities for further growth and scaling up our business, they are developing nicely.

We have a new market in Sweden, which is doing good. And we have a digital platform, which we have introduced first, commercial application -- key numbers from Q1, as I said, 18% growth, which is really, really high. And I'm really satisfying to see that we are gaining strength. And actually, all of our businesses are growing nicely.

Adjusted EBITDA, slightly up in absolute numbers year-on-year. Margin, slightly down year-on-year with the sales mix development.

Digital appointments are still growing, almost 400,000 digital appointments during Q1, and that will be discussed later in the presentation.

COVID testing as I said, still active. Very good customer satisfaction numbers, which is very important going forward.

And maybe the most clear manifestation of the demand environment is doctor booking rate, which is still abnormally high at 94%. And supply, not demand, is limiting the growth of our business.

We have not, during the last couple of quarters, discussed so much M&A activities, but activity is high actually in that field. Our M&A strategy continues to be threefold. We are strengthening our scalable and core capabilities with bolt-ons, and we are scaling now our capabilities also to Sweden.

We are growing in adjacencies and targeting areas where our market share is not high today, and we have targeted some specialties and niche players, which contribute to our capabilities.

There's a list of conducted acquisitions during Q1. And as you can see, the activity has been high. Sweden, as I said last time around, is looking good. Our strategy in Sweden is threefold and in 3 stages. We are strengthening the organic -- the occupational health care platform in Sweden with organic development, putting our scalable capabilities in the Swedish market, but also with acquisitions. And the acquisition funnel in that field looks good.

Then at a later stage, hopefully not too far away from now, we are introducing new services to the portfolio. And most likely, that's going to be conducted through acquisition.

Then end game will be more coordinated health care portfolio, much like what we are running in Finland.

Highlights from Sweden during Q1 was the acquisition or, let's say, together with nice organic growth and improving profitability also was the acquisition of Nämndemansgården, which is a leading addition -- addiction treatment company in the Nordics. It's contributing nicely to revenue and on service portfolio in our Swedish platform, some 15% growth with that one single acquisition.

Digital asset continues to ramp up nicely. We are again, during Q1, breaking records. Just as a reminder, while we are doing this one, we are improving primary care and access to care and productivity with the digital health care.

We are saving time for our professionals. We are saving time for our customers. We are increasing productivity of single care events. But at the same time, we are improving capacity and maximum utilization rate throughout the network, with going from location restricted services to network-wide and digital services.

As I said, what we are doing is we are transforming primary care. The traditional model is the one where physical GP is the gatekeeper for the rest of the services. We have introduced a hybrid model where digital is growing much faster than physical appointments.

Also what we are doing is introducing more intelligence in steering of the customers and matching in better way, in more efficient way, right customers to right services and right professionals. And with these cases, we are also introducing more prescriptive care chains, which is also one key element for better customer value and productivity.

Digital platform, we have a twofold short-term plan with that one. We are -- as I said, we are scaling the capabilities into our Swedish platform. There's a clear plan how we are going to do that one during this year. Certain elements of our digital, it will be introduced to Swedish model, and that's going to be a sort of a proof point for scalability of Terveystalo international digital expansion.

At the same time, there has been a clear demand from public side to digital platforms. And then we have now, during Q1, introduced our digital remote platform -- white label platform for public services.

With that one, with those highlights, I will now give over to CFO, Ilkka Laurila. Ilkka, please.

I
Ilkka Laurila
executive

Thanks, Ville, and good morning on my behalf as well. And like usually, we will then go through a couple of financial highlights in Q1 result.

Like Ville already highlighted, the strong growth continued in Q1. The revenue growth was at 15.3%, of which Feelgood was that 8%. All the growth in Finland was almost organic, so quite nice growth level in Finland as well.

Adjusted EBITDA grew at 2% versus comparison period, with 11.8% relative profitability. If we compare to those numbers to previous quarter, we were actually able to grow faster than in Q4. In Q4, the growth was at 17%.

Then on the other hand, a slightly slower increase in adjusted EBITDA growth. And in Q4, when it grew at 6%, roughly speaking.

We have also kept our disciplined financial strategy, so that our balance sheet continues to strengthen, which then enables us to continue our investments in growth, especially when it comes to the digitalization as well as, obviously, to catch M&A opportunities when they show good cash flow development as well from the operating activities at EUR 24.8 million.

Then if you take a bit deeper look on the revenue development, on the left-hand side, you can see the portfolio is nicely balanced, 42% of corporate followed by 26% and 25% of -- from private and public customers. And Sweden and other segment is now contributing that 7% of the total revenue at Terveystalo.

On the right-hand side, you can see that, actually, we were able to crawl faster than in Q4 in all other customer groups than -- with the exception of private customers in which still had a quite stable, nice growth number, even though slightly slower growth than in Q4. But very nice 30% growth in our largest customer groups in corporate segment, that's maybe a highlight in Q1.

And nice growth numbers also in different customer -- different public customer services -- service sales, combined with the occupational health care for the public customers, again, grow -- grew at 19%. That also includes those new services that Ville mentioned.

Staffing, nice growth there as well, 12%.

A few words about the COVID testing volumes. We still have quite nice volumes. You can see it's still on a quite nice levels. Obviously, we have been benefiting during the last 2 years or so from the COVID testing activities, still on a quite nice level, coming down during the first quarter.

And our -- and we are still expecting that the volume in the 6 months -- following 6 months will continue a downward trend. But I think we all understand that no one knows how to sort of -- what would be the pandemic situation when the autumn again, comes, and that is something that we will see then later.

From the public sources, we can also see that we have been able to gain market share also in these services and businesses. So relative to our loving competitors, we have been able to sort of have a higher volumes and, relatively speaking, compared to their volumes.

Then a couple of words on profitability before we go a bit deeper on the cost development. You can see a couple of sort of trends here. Maybe highlighting, especially on the right-hand side, you can see that if our adjusted EBITDA margin was now at 11.8, it is obviously lower than compared to '21. But if we take a bit longer view sort of the profitability before the pandemic in Q1 2019, we are in almost same level in terms of relative profitability that we used to be.

Before the pandemic level, it was 12.1% in Q1 2019. Even there, we had extremely high demand and good development in 2019. And now we are having that close to the same level of relative profitability, 11.8.

Then a couple of words on cost development, starting from the top. If you take a look at the purchase of the materials, it increased more than the revenue development quite actually. A natural reasoning for that is that our surgery is actually developed quite nicely during Q1. And obviously, it requires lots of expensive implants, et cetera, et cetera. And that's why we faced the increased material expenses in Q1.

Then on the employee benefit expenses, 33% growth in there. Roughly speaking, if you sort of split that growth, let's say, that roughly 40% actually is coming from Sweden versus last year. 1/3 is coming from the public customer groups, mostly deriving from COVID testing as well as those new services, which we have launched to the public customers, which Ville mentioned.

And then the remaining 1/3 is coming from our underlying -- or our sort of core network health centers and clinic networks and hospitals. And in there, the key drivers were: one is the sort of the high activity in the COVID testing, still even higher activity than a year ago. And then on the other hand, we, like I think many of Finnish companies there were quite heavily sick leaves during the Omicron wave, especially at the beginning of Q1 in Jan and partly in February as well.

But now, obviously, the situation is improving when it comes to the sick leaves as well.

Then in other operating expenses and marketing, et cetera, you can see that we are investing more now on marketing than a year ago in other operating expenses. That's a bunch of different kind of costs in there. Like usually, everything related to M&A and all that kind of admin related expenses, which increased quite a bit in Q1 as well.

So overall, you could say that, quite, I would say, sort of natural reasoning for the cost increases, and that's why we are not so worried about the cost increases at this stage. There's a sort of logical reasons for those increases.

Well-being sales, again, nice growth, 9% versus a year ago to 25% versus 2 years ago. Quite nice growth continues there. And like Ville already mentioned, even you could say maybe a bit surprisingly, even though that we faced tough comps already with the digital visits still having 20% growth, it's a fantastic growth numbers, I would say. And there's something about the sort of our capabilities in there.

And then on the other hand, how the sort of the customer behavior and -- has also changed during the pandemic. So it has not, at least so far, showing plateauing development, but it continues to grow still with very high growth numbers.

Then a couple of words in regards to our financial development and our balance sheet, et cetera. If we take a bit longer view, you can see that, actually, our operating cash flow is developing quite nicely. Combined with the EBITDA growth has actually resulted the situation that our leverage ratio is now on that 2.6, which is a very strong number.

In our case, you can see the historical development in the 2018 is somewhat distorted by the acquisition of Finnish Attendo's Health Care service business [indiscernible]. But since that, it has continued to sort of going down and showing downward trend. And we have kept a disciplined financial strategy and been able to sort of then continue investing organically to digital platform and inorganic growth avenue, especially in Swedish and other markets.

And that has resulted the situation that, especially if you take a look at the left-hand side, even though that our net debt has actually remained rather stable during the last couple of years, with the improvement in operating cash flow and the adjusted EBITDA, our leverage ratio has come down quite -- with a quite nice pace. And so has also happened to our gearings, which is -- gearing number, which is now at 85%, and the equity ratio is also somewhat strengthening, up to 43% now in Q1.

And that kind of concludes my financial section, and I will hand over back to Ville.

V
Ville Iho
executive

Thank you, Ilkka. A couple of words around the outlook, maybe only highlighting the changes that we have made since last time around.

Obviously, COVID testing continues to decrease for natural reasons. And then, of course, we can all be very happy about the pandemic finally seeing maybe the end date there.

Then consumer confidence, for obvious reasons, might take a hit. But all in all, demand environment for Terveystalo services continues to be very, very strong.

And highlighting the fact that supply will be the restricting factor for growing our business for next couple of quarters.

Maybe just summarizing the key highlights from Q1 once more. So really, the highlight is a strong growth, a good development in core businesses. Sweden doing good, both organically and inorganically. And then digital is scaling up really, really nicely.

With that one, I think we'll go to Q&A.

K
Kati Kaksone
executive

Thanks, Ville and Ilkka. I think that we could take questions from the audience. First, Jutta from SEB.

J
Jutta Rahikainen
analyst

Jutta from SEB here. Three questions. First of all, on the supply issues you referred to, I assume it's the personnel, so a familiar topic.

What can you do about that? How can you increase your supply still to meet that strong demand that you are seeing?

V
Ville Iho
executive

Yes. First of all, we are talking about personnel now. We are talking about professionals. Rest of the services in further down in service chain of care path, we do have available capacity, be it labs, imaging or hospital services.

We are, of course, recruiting. And we are leveraging the #1 employer position in this industry. It takes some time. It's one by one pick from the market. And of course, we are investing a lot in increasing the productivity of sort of a core care activities inside our system. So those are the activities. It's a tough undertaking, but I'm sure we'll manage.

I
Ilkka Laurila
executive

Maybe still adding on that one. So that obviously, those small bolt-on acquisitions that we also do, those also contribute to the sort of the supply bottlenecks because, typically, in those acquired entities, the booking rates are typically, in most of the cases, are on a lower level compared to our case.

Again, the acquisitions that we have made in Finland are small, practically speaking, but there is one way to also recruit new professionals to our ecosystem.

J
Jutta Rahikainen
analyst

Okay. And then the second question is on profitability. Now you were down on EBITA roughly 2 percentage points. If you will split that, how much is the sort of sales mix/COVID test effect? And how much is growth efforts?

Because I would think that the growth efforts will presumably continue. Whereas then the COVID change or shift in demand probably is something you can work on yourself?

I
Ilkka Laurila
executive

Without giving any sort of specific sort of split, I would say, it's quite evenly balanced. The relative profitability decline is actually quite evenly balanced with, let's say, 3 components.

Swedish business has a lot of contribution, of course, without saying. Then on the other hand, the pricing of the COVID testing is coming down. That has other impact. New services, especially for those public customers, which we mentioned.

And then on the other hand, the sort of the [indiscernible] situation in Q1 with the sick leaves, that had also impact. And also the sort of the other COVID-related activities in Q1. We still had a quite big manning especially at the beginning of Q1 when it comes to COVID vaccination. And obviously, volumes with the COVID vaccinations are, like we all know, going down quite dramatically nowadays.

J
Jutta Rahikainen
analyst

Okay. And then the last one, a classic one. [indiscernible] reform. Any risks or opportunities you see there?

V
Ville Iho
executive

It's -- yes, it's a classic, but it's always a very good question, a relevant question. Starting from the demand, I can still reiterate that demand is massive, and it's piling up, so to speak.

On the other hand, when these new districts are doing the sort of organizing work, their focus is not in buying new services. So basically, they -- what they are doing is they try to figure out how to pay salaries for their new employees. Really, they organize basic things.

So most probably, we'll see a fairly sort of stable period from this moment on until the end of the year. And really, the new innovations, services, packages will then start emerging early next year.

J
Jutta Rahikainen
analyst

What happens next here is more of a risk or opportunity...

V
Ville Iho
executive

I would say, it is definitely an opportunity, definitely.

K
Kati Kaksone
executive

Thanks, Jutta. Do we have any other questions from the audience at the moment? No. I think that we are then ready to take questions from the phone lines.

Operator

Our first question comes from Grace Lee from Jefferies. .

G
Grace Lee
analyst

I've got sort of 3 different questions. I will just speak then and separate the question. Number one, on Ukraine, can you just give us a thought on -- you mentioned about prolonged situation, potential impact to further stall the services demand. And so can you just share your thoughts on how you're sort of thinking at least, your thought first of scenarios facing of that to likely impact magnitude to your services? And you noted that demand impact, but is there potentially some pricing impact to it as well?

V
Ville Iho
executive

So if I follow on, this is not perfect. So if I got the question right, it was around the impact of Ukraine on our demand and that forecast. So I would say that there's obviously more uncertainty in the marketplace for every business right now.

This is a situation, which we have during our generation, firstly, in Europe. So nobody can really predict where we end up with this one. But in our case, core demand is really, really strong.

As I said, we are not able to cater for all of the demand right now, especially on private side, where we are spilling. And hence, the sort of immediate impact to our services should not be material.

I don't know, Ilkka, if you want to...

I
Ilkka Laurila
executive

Yes, yes. Especially the direct impact, it is very limited. We haven't yet faced any issues when it comes to the procurement or supply. We have a very professional procurement department, which has already sort of prepared for all kinds of situations for the last 2 years.

So we haven't had any issues when it comes to medical equipment or health care supplies or anything like that. And then on the other hand, like Ville said, for the sales of the top line, it's very limited. Actually, the one sort of minor impact is that we are sort of having a sort of privilege to provide services to Finnish immigration offices, so we do hold checkups and other health care services to those Ukrainians that are entering to Finland.

K
Kati Kaksone
executive

On a longer term, of course, if the situation prolongs, then of course, the macro drivers that are related to employment and consumer confidence would have an impact, but that is case for all companies operating in European markets.

G
Grace Lee
analyst

On the supply and wage and cost inflation in general, this is maybe 1 or 2 questions. About the pricing power you noted and then sort of offset those inflationary risks, can you -- that must depend obviously on the payer segment. So can you just share your sort of thoughts on how you can mitigate on one basis and it's affecting it? And how much you'll be able to offset the high inflation that we are seeing -- expecting and seeing already in 2022? And on the certain material supply of component shortages, is there any particular that you want to particularly highlight?

V
Ville Iho
executive

So again, if I got it correctly, our pricing power, when it comes to our services, is Finnish services system is quite unique in a way that we have full freedom for pricing our services, excluding a couple of outsourcing deals that we have with public market.

Much of private and corporate, we price our services as any business. So -- and traditionally, Terveystalo's ability to increase prices when inflatory elements have been in place, or even in normal years, has been really good. So we do have pricing power. And in this demand environment, that shouldn't be a risk for Terveystalo.

Then, Ilkka, on cost side and supply side, I think.

I
Ilkka Laurila
executive

Yes. When it comes to the procurement, actually, I think we are quite lucky on that side for that reason that we have been able to have a -- at the year-end and at the beginning of year quite long-term contracts with our key suppliers, so -- which is mitigating the inflatory impact for the costs.

And obviously, the wages are still under, especially when it comes to the nurses, they are still under negotiation. So the increase for tariff is still, as of today, unknown. But for other expenses, we don't expect -- during this year, we don't expect any major impact for cost structure through the inflation.

K
Kati Kaksone
executive

Yes. And maybe just as a reminder, most of our physicians are private practitioners, so there's no wage inflation pressures related to that employee group.

G
Grace Lee
analyst

And I do have a last question. Digital visits, the increase that you've seen in Q1, which is quite strong, what starts driving the growth of that? Is that one you put a new customers? Or is it the existing customers coming back for more services? How would you split those 2 different impacts? That's the last question.

V
Ville Iho
executive

Yes. I would say they are not new customers. They are customers that are using Terveystalo services also in physical channels, but it's more efficient, more convenient for customers. And especially in this type of demand environment, the efficiency and productivity gain is really, really a nice contribution to our business, as we speak.

K
Kati Kaksone
executive

Do we have any other questions from the phone lines?

Operator

Our next question comes from Sami Sarkamies from Danske.

S
Sami Sarkamies
analyst

Okay. Coming back to weak operating leverage in Q1 that was already discussed, you were saying that this was impacted by a change in sales mix and extra costs.

Could you please elaborate on what you mean by change in sales mix? And are you able to quantify any of the extra cost that you had in Q1?

I
Ilkka Laurila
executive

Maybe yes, that's one thing that I forgot to mention is that in Q1, the sort of the sales mix, it's like always in health care, it's a bit complex, but if you bear with me.

So basically, what happened in Q1, especially when we compare to the last year Q1, we were facing especially high demand when it comes to the infections and sort of ear, nose, throat and eye infections. And traveling-related diseases already have picked up versus a year ago.

Then on the other hand, this kind of classic private customers, secondary care, specialty doctor visits and demand like rhinologists, internal diseases, brain, circulatory systems, et cetera, et cetera, demand for those services was actually slightly down in Q1.

So we were doing lots of primary care, acute care, and that kind of stuff. And typically, those plastic private specialty care visits typically do have more referrals, relatively speaking, to diagnostics, meaning labs, imaging as well as also to surgeries.

And that's the sort of the -- we have a more than 50 medical specialties, but if you take a sort of one sort of deeper down, that's sort of the mix change that is happening at the moment. And that is quite some different if we compare the situation in -- before the pandemic, when obviously the private demand actually sort of was more related to especially the specialist care visits and personalized doctors and that kind of stuff. So that's the kind of mix. So it's more appointments, it's more primary care at the moment.

V
Ville Iho
executive

Maybe just to add on that one earlier. In one of the quarters, we have the -- or maybe the multiple quarters, we have discussed the impact of COVID testing. And we have said that all of our lab services and also imaging, and even certain surgeries, they do have a high margin.

And what Ilkka explained is, in a way, a situation where the normal referral flow, if you may, is not at a normal level. At the same time, the COVID-related services are sliding down, both in price and volume.

In longer term, there shouldn't be any reason why this shift for this referral flow would be permanent. The specialist care has been sort of the -- a key service for private health care in Finland and Terveystalo. And I don't see any solution for the bottlenecks in public side from that angle.

S
Sami Sarkamies
analyst

And what about the cost?

I
Ilkka Laurila
executive

Costs, of course, the question related to costs. Additional cost, yes, those were related to those sort of new services, temp staffing because of the sick leaves and actually higher number of the COVID testing versus a year ago.

S
Sami Sarkamies
analyst

Okay. And then I would ask a follow-up. Are you expecting operating leverage to improve already in the near term? Or will that require more time?

I
Ilkka Laurila
executive

Well, if I may comment, I would say that it -- most likely, we don't have a crystal ball on that, but it will take some time because it's a sort of the change in demand environment that are all shifting demand environment that I described.

It is also linked to the supply. So if you think about the occupational health care customer, which is contracted client, they go to see occupation health care doctor or primary care GP doctor, and that is actually sort of eating out the capacity from the private customers.

So that is sort of the -- one of the sort of the elements that is driving that shifting mix is the supply driven. And obviously, most likely, it will take more time than a couple of months to sort of completely manage the supply issues that we have.

V
Ville Iho
executive

Yes, I would agree. The demand, as we have said many times, that is not the issue. Demand is the -- it is strong, but fixing the supply issues and our supply bottlenecks and really being able to steer flows also to higher margin businesses will be the key.

And it will not happen over 1 week or 1 month. It is -- historically speaking, the shifts that we have seen during COVID, they are, I would say, biggest that this industry has ever seen. And in a way, recalibrating the system will take some time.

S
Sami Sarkamies
analyst

Okay. And then finally, would you be able to comment on your profitability in Sweden during Q1?

V
Ville Iho
executive

Development has been positive, let's put it this way.

I
Ilkka Laurila
executive

Yes. The sort of the EBIT number -- or EBITDA numbers are the segment for Sweden is per total. And as you can see, it's improving. I guess, the top line as well.

Operator

[Operator Instructions] There appear to be no further audio questions. I will turn the conference back to you.

K
Kati Kaksone
executive

Thank you. We have at least one question from the webcast. Could you remind us how much of the Finnish health care services are done by public and of private operations? So the split of provision in the Finnish system.

V
Ville Iho
executive

Ilkka, do you remember the percentages by heart?

K
Kati Kaksone
executive

Roughly 75 is -- yes.

I
Ilkka Laurila
executive

Roughly 75 is public sort of paid and public provision. And I think 17 is the sort of the private. And the remaining is then publicly funded, privately provided.

K
Kati Kaksone
executive

Private is a bit under 20% at the moment. So that is the split.

V
Ville Iho
executive

So in Finnish system, the private is abnormally high compared to other European countries. And then again, private provision and public funding part is abnormally low. And typically, we are talking about that segment when we are talking about opportunities in [indiscernible].

K
Kati Kaksone
executive

Yes, exactly. Then a question from [Carnegie Iiris Theman]. Can you comment on what kind of wage increases is fair to expect? And a question to Ilkka, can you provide any comments on why you are leaving the company? So maybe starting from the first question on the wage increases.

V
Ville Iho
executive

Yes. As discussed earlier, when we think about our professionals on doctor side, 90% are private practitioners. And hence, price -- or wage increases does not impact that part of the business. .

The biggest group in our portfolio, which will be impacted, is obviously nurses. And if you have followed the discussion there, now the public contract or agreement, this is being negotiated and under the arguments out there. What they are looking for is than on average salary increases. And average has been in Finland, roughly 2%.

I think private site is in a better position. But still, then most likely will be higher than 2% increase for the nurse wages over the coming year and maybe 2 years. But as again said, the pricing power that Terveystalo has provides cushion for us when it comes to the profitability.

I
Ilkka Laurila
executive

Yes. And for the latter part of the question, yes, there's no specific reasons for that one. And next Monday will be my 10th anniversary at Terveystalo. And I just thought that 10 is a good number in school and why not in work life as well. So that's maybe only a rational reason.

This is not my last quarterly result. I will stay here for the second quarter as well, so not sort of finished turn yet, but I can already say that it's -- that the last 10 years has been much more than I could have ever imagined when I joined Terveystalo. It has been a quite fantastic hell of a ride.

K
Kati Kaksone
executive

Yes. And we look forward to having you around at least one more quarter still.

I
Ilkka Laurila
executive

Yes. And I will join to the AGM. I promised already to Ville that I will join to the AGM. I have a couple of tough questions in my pocket.

V
Ville Iho
executive

Yes. Looking forward to that one, obviously.

K
Kati Kaksone
executive

Yes.

V
Ville Iho
executive

From my behalf, even though this is not a time for goodbye, I, of course, want to thank Ilkka for great contribution for Terveystalo story. It is -- much of what we have today is Ilkka's legacy. And it's been -- also these 2 years have been hell of a ride. And as I said, for our internal audience, it's been 95% fun and 5% painful. And I think that's a good ratio for a CFO.

K
Kati Kaksone
executive

Thanks. I think that we don't have any further questions from the webcast or phone lines. Any other questions from the audience?

One question still from Olli, Inderes.

O
Olli Vilppo
analyst

[Foreign Language]

K
Kati Kaksone
executive

So just repeating the question, what is the proportion of digital visits? And how high can the proportion go in the future?

V
Ville Iho
executive

[Foreign Language] Sorry, in English. So the ratio for Q1, I actually haven't calculated. But last year, if you recall, the numbers were such that we had 8 million appointments.

Obviously, it's all together, and 1 million out of those were digital. And now we are still scaling up quite nicely.

So the ratio is improving. There are different sort of guesses where this will go. But in primary care, theoretically, you could provide more than 50% of the services through digital, and that sort of upper limit for that development. But you still need needle in some services, so they will be physical.

K
Kati Kaksone
executive

Thanks. I think that we have no further questions. So we thank you for your time, and have a nice weekend.

I
Ilkka Laurila
executive

Thank you.

V
Ville Iho
executive

Thank you.