Annaly Capital Management Inc
NYSE:NLY

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Annaly Capital Management Inc
NYSE:NLY
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Earnings Call Analysis

Q2-2024 Analysis
Annaly Capital Management Inc

Annaly Capital Reports Modest Q2 Economic Return Amid Volatility

In Q2 2024, Annaly Capital delivered a 0.9% economic return and a 5.7% return year-to-date amidst significant market volatility. Their earnings available for distribution exceeded the dividend by $0.03, illustrating strong returns despite a decrease in book value per share to $19.25. They actively managed their agency portfolio, increasing exposure by $1.6 billion while resulting in higher coupon income of 27 basis points. The company remains optimistic about future prospects, expecting Federal Reserve rate cuts to benefit fixed-income investors and projecting continuous growth in their residential credit and mortgage servicing rights businesses.

Introduction and Macro Environment Overview

In the second quarter of 2024, Annaly Capital Management successfully navigated a volatile environment characterized by modestly rising interest rates. The 10-year treasury yield fluctuated within a 50 basis point range due to economic data impacting 2024 rate cuts expectations. Despite this volatility, Annaly achieved roughly a 1% economic return for the quarter and a 5.7% return for the first half of the year. The company's earnings available for distribution exceeded its dividend by $0.03, highlighting its consistent ability to generate strong returns with prudent leverage, standing at 5.8x by quarter-end【7:0†source】【7:2†source】.

Portfolio and Investment Strategies

Annaly's portfolio strategy involved active management, particularly in its agency holdings. The company reduced its Agency MBS positions early in the quarter due to higher rates and wider spreads, but later increased these holdings by approximately $1.6 billion notional as conditions improved. The agency portfolio saw a shift towards higher coupon investments, with holdings of coupons 5.5 and higher increased by $4 billion, raising the average net coupon to 4.87%【7:2†source】【7:3†source】【7:9†source】.

Residential Credit and MSR Business

Annaly's residential credit portfolio remained robust with assets largely stable throughout the quarter. The portfolio ended at $5.9 billion in economic market value and $2.2 billion in equity, representing 20% of the firm's capital. The company saw record growth in its Onslow Bay correspondent channel, locking $4.1 billion in expanded prime loans and settling $2.8 billion. MSR holdings also grew, reaching $2.8 billion in market value, reflecting a nearly 30% increase year-over-year. Prospective hedge returns in the MSR portfolio remain between 12% to 14%【7:3†source】【7:10†source】【7:13†source】.

Financial Performance and Book Value

As of June 30, 2024, Annaly's book value per share decreased to $19.25 from the previous quarter. Even with asset spread widening and rate volatility, the company generated a 0.9% economic return, including a $0.65 dividend for Q2. Earnings available for distribution rose by $0.04 per share to $0.68, driven by higher coupon income from a continued rotation up in coupon on the agency portfolio and significant asset settlements via the Onslow Bay correspondent channel【7:0†source】【7:4†source】.

Outlook for the Second Half of 2024

Looking ahead, Annaly Capital Management is optimistic about the return potential across its investment strategies as the market anticipates a more accommodative monetary policy phase. The company expects the Federal Reserve to start lowering interest rates, which should favor fixed income investors. Annaly aims to continue growing its residential credit and MSR businesses while maintaining a capital allocation and portfolio construction that supports sustainable returns【7:2†source】【7:3†source】.

Earnings Call Transcript

Earnings Call Transcript
2024-Q2

from 0
Operator

Good morning, and welcome to the Annaly Capital Management Second Quarter 2024 Earnings Conference Call. [Operator Instructions]. Please note this event is being recorded.

I would now like to turn the call over to Sean Kensil, Director Investor Relations. Please go ahead.

S
Sean Kensil
executive

Good morning, and welcome to the Second Quarter 2024 Earnings Call for Annaly Capital Management. Any forward-looking statements made during today's call are subject to certain risks and uncertainties, which are outlined in the Risk Factors section in our most recent annual and quarterly SEC filings.

Actual events and results may differ materially from these forward-looking statements. We encourage you to read the disclaimer in our earnings release in addition to our quarterly and annual filings. Additionally, the content of this conference call may contain time-sensitive information that is accurate only as of the date hereof. We do not undertake and specifically disclaim any obligation to update or revise this information.

During this call, we may present both GAAP and non-GAAP financial measures. A reconciliation of GAAP to non-GAAP measures is included in our earnings release. Content referenced in today's call can be found in our second quarter 2024 Investor Presentation and Second Quarter 2024 supplemental information, both found under the Presentations section of our website. Please also note this event is being recorded.

Participants on this morning's call include David Finkelstein, Chief Executive Officer and Chief Investment Officer; Serena Wolfe, Chief Financial Officer; Mike Fania, Deputy Chief Investment Officer and Head of Residential Credit; V.S. Srinivasan, Head of Agency, and Ken Adler, Head of Mortgage Servicing Rights.

And with that, I'll turn the call over to David.

D
David Finkelstein
executive

Thank you, Sean. Good morning, and thank you all for joining us for our second quarter earnings call. I have 4 areas to discuss today before handing it off to Serena to discuss the financials. First, I'll briefly highlight our performance during the quarter, then review the macro and market environment, followed by an update on each of our 3 businesses, and I'll finish with our outlook for the second half of the year.

Now to begin with, we were pleased with our performance during a quarter that saw a fair amount of volatility. While interest rates rose modestly quarter-over-quarter, the 10-year treasury yield traversed a 50 basis point range as economic data in April meaningfully reduce the magnitude of 2024 rate cuts priced into the market. Whereas in June, employment and inflation data brought accommodative policy in the near-term focus for the market and certainly the Fed. Now in this environment, we delivered a roughly 1% economic return for the second quarter and a 5.7% return for the first half of the year.

Earnings available for distribution exceeded our dividend by $0.03, demonstrating our ability to consistently earn strong returns with prudent leverage which stood at 5.8x at the end of the quarter.

Now to expand further on the macro landscape. Activity continues to slow gradually as tight monetary policy weighs on most parts of the U.S. economy. While core service inflation has been more muted following their brisk pace in Q1, recent data suggests that shelter inflation, the most stubborn component of inflation is finally beginning to meaningfully soften. Meanwhile, the employment picture has moved into better balance as demand for labor has slowed and the pace of hiring is more in line with historical averages.

Now these developments point to rising conviction that the Federal Reserve will begin to lower interest rates in the second half of the year, and this should be followed by additional cuts depending on the pace of further labor market softening as the Fed's employment mandate gains more prominence over the inflation mandate.

Now moving to our portfolio and our investment strategies and beginning with agency, we actively managed the portfolio during the quarter. This current coupon nominal spreads widened by roughly 10 basis points driven predominantly by elevated rate volatility.

Early in the quarter, as mentioned on our last call, we tactically reduced our Agency holdings as we navigated higher rates and wider spreads. We gradually added that exposure back over the remainder of the quarter as our outlook and relative value considerations improved, growing our agency portfolio by approximately $1.6 billion notional on the quarter.

We continue to rotate up in coupon to take advantage of wider spreads offered by production coupons, increasing our holdings of 5.5 and higher by $4 billion. And year-to-date, the average net coupon on our agency portfolio has increased by 30 basis points to 4.87%.

And consistent with prior quarters, we favored high-quality prepayment-protected collateral with durable cash flows. And in an environment where the TBA deliverable is expected to further deteriorate premium specified pools best position us for strong performance in the coming quarters.

Now as it relates to our hedges, the notional value increased relatively in line with agency asset growth and we're likely to maintain the portfolio's conservative rate exposure as longer-term treasuries continue to face technical headwinds from elevated federal budget deficits not to mention potential volatility surrounding the upcoming November elections.

MBS spread volatility declined in the second quarter, with the technical picture showing signs of improvement. The market has experienced strong inflows into fixed income funds and modest bank buying, while net issuance has run slightly below expectations. And we expect demand for Agency MBS to increase once the Fed initiates its cutting cycle. For example, a portion of the $6.1 trillion in money market assets should gravitate towards longer-duration fixed income. And in addition, Agency MBS is highly attractive relative to other fixed income alternatives, particularly corporates, as MBS nominal spreads are well above historical averages, while competing assets are trading at the tighter end of their historical averages.

Now turning to residential credit. Our portfolio ended the quarter at $5.9 billion in economic market value and $2.2 billion in equity representing 20% of the firm's capital. The modest decline in the resi portfolio was driven by our sale of third-party securities to take advantage of relatively tight credit spreads, while increasing our exposure to Agency MBS.

Residential credit assets were largely range-bound throughout the quarter with investment-grade non-QM securities trading at a 10 basis point range and the CRT market tightening 10 to 20 basis points. The fundamentals of the residential credit market remain constructive, although we are closely monitoring the increasing regional disparities in housing and the strength of the consumer, given softening labor markets.

Mortgage delinquencies, however, remain at near record low levels. Our Onslow Bay correspondent channel experienced record growth in Q2 as we locked $4.1 billion of expanded prime loans and settled $2.8 billion, representing a 22% increase quarter-over-quarter. And year-to-date, we've already locked and settled more loans than the entirety of 2023. And our current pipeline continues to exhibit strong credit characteristics, including a 754 average FICO and a 68% CLTV.

The OBX platform has remained a market-leading sponsor of securitizations as we priced 5 non-QM transactions in the second quarter and have now priced 13 securitizations totaling $6.7 billion on the year. OBX represented 25% of the non-QM issuance in the market and approximately 10% of gross non-agency issuance for the first half of 2024. And also to note, we continue to see 12% to 15% prospective returns on the retention of OBX assets.

Now shifting to the MSR business. Our portfolio ended the second quarter with $2.8 billion in market value and $2.5 billion of equity, representing 22% of the firm's capital.

Our MSR holdings increased $135 million quarter-over-quarter, driven by purchase and settlements as well as a modest increase in the value of the portfolio given the 20 basis point increase in mortgage rates. Although our transactional activity slowed in Q2, the portfolio is nearly 30% higher year-over-year as Annaly remains firmly entrenched as a top 10 nonbank holder of servicing rights.

The fundamental performance of the portfolio continues to outperform our expectations as prepayment speeds remain muted despite peak seasonals as serious delinquencies are inside of 40 basis points. An increased competitiveness surrounding deposits is driving elevated float income and all leading to prospective hedge returns remaining in the 12% to 14% range currently.

Now with respect to supply, the record amount of bulk offerings over the last 2 years appears to be normalizing as originators are better positioned with access to capital markets and their gain on sale margins improving. And while we will continue evaluating bulk MSR opportunities, as a result of the changing market dynamics, we have focused on enhancing our flow and recapture capabilities to acquire newly originated MSR from our network of partners. And we remain well positioned to grow our MSR business, given our structure and partnerships, and we believe we have constructed one of the most durable and high-quality portfolios within the MSR sector.

Now lastly, with respect to our outlook, we're encouraged by the return potential across each of our 3 investment strategies and we're optimistic as the market prepares to enter a more accommodative phase of monetary policy. And they should steepen the yield curve, reduce volatility and ultimately, in our view, lead to agency outperformance. And while we expect to continue to grow our residential credit and MSR businesses opportunistically, we feel our current capital allocation and portfolio construction is positioned to generate sustainable returns in an environment that should be favorable to fixed income investors.

And now with that, I'll hand it over to Serena to discuss our financials.

S
Serena Wolfe
executive

Thank you, David. Today, I will provide brief financial highlights for the second quarter ended June 30, 2024. Consistent with prior quarters, while our earnings release discloses GAAP and non-GAAP earnings metrics, my comments will focus on our non-GAAP EAD and related key performance metrics, which exclude PAA.

As of June 30, 2024, our book value per share decreased from the prior quarter to $19.25. Despite the asset spread widening and interest rate volatility during the quarter, we generated a 0.9% economic return, including our dividend of $0.65 for Q2.

Looking back to the beginning of 2024, including $1.30 dividends declared year-to-date, we have generated an economic return of 5.7%. Rate volatility and mostly higher treasury rates resulted in a decrease of $0.96 per share on our Agency MBS portfolio. With positive contributions of $0.16 and $0.31 per share coming from our resi MSR portfolios and hedges, respectively.

Earnings available for distribution increased in the second quarter by $0.04 per share to $0.68. Higher coupon income related to the continued rotation up in coupon on the agency portfolio and $2.8 billion in assets settled via the Onslow Bay correspondent channel contributed to the increase in EAD. Consequently, average asset yields ex PAA increased 27 basis points from the first quarter to 5.14% in Q2.

Higher coupon income was partially offset by an increase of 12 basis points in our economic cost of funds. Taken together, our net interest spread ex PAA increased by 15 basis points, reaching 1.24% in the second quarter. And net interest margin ex PAA also rose 15 basis points quarter-over-quarter to 1.58%.

While [ prepayment ] rates remained stable, even declining 2 basis points in Q2 securitized debt expense increased in Q2 due to the high volume of securitizations we completed in the first 6 months of 2024. Additionally, our swap benefit declined modestly due to a large position maturing during the quarter, representing our final scheduled swap maturity for this year.

As we continue executing our repo strategy, our weighted average repo days declined 7 days compared to Q1 at 36 days for the second quarter. During Q2, we furthered our strategy of providing financing optionality for our Onslow Bay's platform, closing additional warehouse capacity of $250 million and expanding our non-mark-to-market supplements. As of June 30, 2024, we had $4.2 billion of MSR and home loan warehouse capacity at a 39% utilization rate, leaving substantial availability.

Annaly's unencumbered assets increased to $5.4 billion in the second quarter, including cash and unencumbered agency MBS of $3.5 billion. We also had approximately $900 million in fair value of MSR pledged to committed warehouse facilities, which remain undrawn and can be quickly converted to cash, subject to contractual event rates. Together, we had approximately $6.3 billion in assets available for financing, up $45 million compared to last quarter, notwithstanding a slight increase in our leverage profile.

Our efficiency ratio has worsened during Q2 due to the timing of certain expenses. However, we expect expenses to normalize and full year OpEx to equity ratios to inline with historical levels.

That concludes our prepared remarks. We will now open the line for questions. Thank you, operator.

Operator

[Operator Instructions]. Our first question comes from Bose George with KBW.

B
Bose George
analyst

Actually, can I start just with getting an update on quarter-to-date book value?

D
David Finkelstein
executive

Sure, Bose. As of Tuesday's close, we were up roughly 2% with the dividend accrual and a little over 1% net of the dividend.

B
Bose George
analyst

And then just in terms of the hedges, so you were replacing the maturing swaps with Treasury futures this quarter. Can you just talk about the advantages of that?

D
David Finkelstein
executive

Yes, sure. So there's multiple advantages. We were certainly concerned with rate volatility and particularly spread volatility. So reducing the exposure to swaps was somewhat warranted, particularly later in the quarter. And there is differences with respect to initial margin and liquidity associated with swaps.

It's not a material change. One of the catalysts for the change was also putting on a little bit of a curve trade, a steepener given what our view was with respect to the expectation for a little bit of yield curve steepening, which we saw this quarter. Certainly, we're about 20 basis points steeper [ 0.2 ] and generally, just for liquidity and IM benefit as well as creating the right balance.

Another point to note as it relates to our swaps, Bose, is that our swap position is in a very good place. We have had a lot of runoff over the past couple of years. including this past quarter and Q1, and we're in a place where we do not have any more swap runoff of that low pay rate for the rest of this year. And so we feel pretty good about our swap position here. And when you look at the relative tightness of swap spreads, I think 10-year swap spreads are around negative 45%. It's a good hedge. So we're going to be a little bit overweight swaps because the levered return relative to swaps versus other hedges is pretty attractive right now, notwithstanding concerns over balance sheet as it relates to swap spreads.

Operator

The next question is from Doug Harter with UBS.

D
Douglas Harter
analyst

David, you talked about kind of having a slightly different strategy on acquiring new MSR. Can you just talk about the risk profile of new MSR and the relative attractiveness of adding those to what's a very attractive existing portfolio?

D
David Finkelstein
executive

Sure, Doug. I'm going to hand it over to Ken to help you with that.

K
Ken Adler
executive

Yes, sure. I mean new MSR just has materially more prepayment exposure to it. So it relies on a different hedging strategy than the legacy MSR with a much lower note rate and more stable cash flow. However, the new MSR also provides opportunity for recapture that's not present in the legacy MSR. So that's an additional revenue opportunity as well.

D
Douglas Harter
analyst

And can you just remind us, Ken, kind of where you are in terms of recapture, what agreements you have and how confident you would be in your capabilities to execute?

K
Ken Adler
executive

Absolutely. Look, we currently have 4 recapture partners. Each of these partners has different strategies, approaches and tools for customer outreach and creating recapture. And what we do is we compare the results between them and allocate our initiatives to the best performers and kind of refine these strategies over time. So we kind of have a portfolio approach to this. And we have the ability to be dynamic given the use of multiple providers. We also have several strategic discussions with potential new partners that many are considered best-in-class, and they offer unique technology and differentiating strategies. So our approach and ability to partners with servicers and originators is what we're happy about.

D
Douglas Harter
analyst

I guess just to be clear on that. So when there is recaptured, do you share in the full origination economics? Or are you just getting the MSR back? Just want to make sure I understand how those economics work.

K
Ken Adler
executive

We effectively share in the gain on sale in a material way by taking that MSR back at a below-market price. And those prices are negotiated and they're different depending on the provider, what the recapture rate is. So there's kind of an incentive fee structures with these providers. And given how low origination margins are in the industry, the repurchase of the MSR back at a discount is effectively assuming that origination P&L.

D
David Finkelstein
executive

Yes. Doug, given how competitive origination of servicing is we're able to extract the right value associated with our recapture relationships.

Operator

The next question is from Rick Shane with JPMorgan.

R
Richard Shane
analyst

I really needed to queue in before Doug because that was the topic I wanted to explore as well. I am curious, one of the things that is driving MSR pricing is that recapture opportunity? And I'm curious -- and again, you've talked about some of the efficiency from an economic perspective for you from a recapture perspective. But I am curious if you're seeing peers out there whose economics are really focused on the origination side, who are making pricing in that space less attractive for you? It's an interesting time to shift from bulk to flow?

K
Ken Adler
executive

Yes. Well, we are observing just as everybody is. When you observe the prices, the price spread between low note rate MSR and newly created higher note rate MSR has never been less than I've seen. So you are seeing increasing comfort with the ability to price in that recaptured by the market overall. And there's always a couple of participants that stand out. But in general, yes, comfort with using big data, call center technology has absolutely increased.

D
David Finkelstein
executive

Yes. And Rick, another point which you may be alluding to is that as it relates to our MSR portfolio, we're very protective of the borrower. And -- the last thing we want to do is use a subservicing relationship that is going to lead to over churning of our portfolio or anything that would damage our returns. And so it's a high bar to partner with us when it comes to recapture and subservicing.

R
Richard Shane
analyst

Got it. That makes sense. Hey, a request, as you transition to more of a flow business and potentially the coupons start to shift a little bit, could you provide disclosure on the coupon in the way that you do for the MBS portfolio so we can see the distribution of coupons.

D
David Finkelstein
executive

Sure. That's certainly a consideration. But it is important to note that in the current portfolio, the vast, vast majority is very, very low rate. So it's a pretty homogenous bucket of what are -- should be considered to be nonrefinanceable mortgages.

R
Richard Shane
analyst

Absolutely. Yes. Again, depending upon how fast that flow business grows, we could start to see the portfolio barbell a little bit and just would love to understand that better.

D
David Finkelstein
executive

You bet, Rick.

Operator

The next question comes from Jason Stewart with Janney Montgomery Scott.

J
Jason Stewart
analyst

One more on the MSR and servicing front. Do you have any thoughts? I know it's early and likely to change, but thoughts on the CFPB's proposed servicing rule regarding foreclosures, how that might impact the valuation, competitive environment, et cetera?

D
David Finkelstein
executive

Yes. That's a good question, Jason. So we certainly recognize the CFPB's efforts to revise mortgage servicing rules to benefit borrowers. And many of the proposed changes would result in more complex loss mitigation processes with potentially longer timelines to reach resolution. And on the surface, if implemented as proposed, our subservicer oversight team would ensure that our subservicers are following all relevant laws and regulations. And we could expect subservicing cost to increase on the margin.

But our portfolio, both on the resi credit side as well as the MSR side is composed of very high-quality borrowers with significant equity in their homes. And our portfolio is just specifically Fannie and Freddie, made up with very low delinquencies, as I mentioned, less than 40 basis points. And we have no Ginnie borrowers to speak of. We have a very small [ sleep ] at Ginnie Mae from the legacy [ Pingora ] days. So we don't expect the cost to us to increase in any meaningful way, but it could lead to a little bit higher servicing costs overall.

J
Jason Stewart
analyst

Yes, I think it's important to note that differentiation there. So thanks for that color. And then going back to the up and coupon trade, when you look at specified pools up in coupon, I think you noted you're looking at very, call it, high premium or quality pools there. When you combine that with the competitive environment for marginal refi activity. Where is the most value? And how are you looking at hedging those to protect that value?

V
V.S. Srinivasan
executive

So basically, what our strategy has been that as we move up in coupon, we buy higher-quality pools. So on 6.5, we generally buy very high-quality pools and on 6 it'll be a little bit less and on 5.5, it will be a little bit less. The way we think about hedging is we think of a specified pool as a combination of TBA duration plus a payup duration. So we kind of model how that pay up duration is going to move in a rally and a sell-off and we kind of measure that duration, and that's how we hedge the payout.

The biggest advantage is these tools provide ample spread right now. And because they are less negatively convex, we are not really giving up that much carry in the near term. And in the long term, if and when rates do rally, they provide very durable yields for an extended period of time.

J
Jason Stewart
analyst

Yes. I guess my takeaway there was that the carry is going to benefit you for several quarters, and you can potentially hedge away the negative convexity, but we might be getting too much in the weeds there. But that was just my thought.

D
David Finkelstein
executive

Yes, that's the right assessment, Jason.

Operator

This concludes the question-and-answer session. I would like to turn the conference back over to David Finkelstein for any closing remarks.

D
David Finkelstein
executive

Actually, I do believe we have one more question in the queue.

Operator

I do see him, yes. Let me announce him. The next question is from Tim Chiang with BTIG.

E
Eric Hagen
analyst

Eric Hagen. Sorry for punching in late. I think the question here is just it looks like the Fed is going to cut more aggressively. What's your perspective on how mortgage spreads will respond to that, even what we're seeing just in the market over the last, call it, 24 hours?

D
David Finkelstein
executive

Yes. Under that scenario, Eric, we would be optimistic on mortgage spreads. You'll see further steepening in the yield curve than the 50 basis points that's priced in over the next year between 2s and 10s. The $6.1 trillion in money market funds as those yields start to decline, will gravitate toward longer duration fixed income. As I mentioned, you'll potentially see bank demand come in, and it will just be a better environment for agencies.

We've experienced this cycle after cycle. When the Fed cuts, and the curve steepens, there is better demand for Agency MBS and you would expect ball to come down. Should be a dampening environment, and we would expect strong performance from Agency, which is why we like the site -- the sector.

We think that the appropriate amount of cuts are currently priced in. But when you look at the Fed's posture and the shift over the past number of months, it's gone from focus on the inflation mandate to more balance between the employment mandate in inflation. And there is a likelihood that given what's gone on in the labor market, is that the focus could shift to be more weighted towards the employment picture. And you could see more aggressive cuts than what's priced in and that would be a perfectly good outcome for us.

E
Eric Hagen
analyst

Yes. That's good perspective. I appreciate that. Hey, so how are we thinking about the trade-off between maybe levering up with the MSR a little bit more and raising capital or even delevering the Agency MBS portfolio to maybe balance out or buffer any of that prepayment risk?

D
David Finkelstein
executive

Yes. So I would say that incremental purchases of MSR would likely be levered. We have very, very low leverage on that portfolio. We've been fortunate, given our abundant liquidity to be able to use the agency portfolio as somewhat of a bank to finance it. and it's led to returns that are in excess of the 12% to 14% we show in the materials, which you assume is warehouse financing. And so we have the ability to leverage. Right now, we have the liquidity to not need to, but I would say keep that capital allocation in the context of 20% or thereabouts, we probably would lever incremental purchases and maintain the liquidity of the overall portfolio.

And look, as it relates to capital raise -- capital raising, 2 conditions have to be met. It has to be accretive and benefit shareholders and assets have to be available and at the right price. There's a lot to get through. And to the extent it's -- the market is compelling us to do so. We'll certainly look at it, but we feel like we're in a good place, and we'll see how things evolve over the near term.

V
V.S. Srinivasan
executive

I would just add that we have -- I'd just add that we have committed MSR lines, so we can tap them any time we want.

D
David Finkelstein
executive

Exactly.

Operator

This concludes the question-and-answer session. I'd like to turn the conference over to David Finkelstein for any closing remarks.

D
David Finkelstein
executive

Thanks, Debbie, and thank you, everybody, for joining us today. Enjoy the rest of the summer, and we'll talk to you in the fall.

Operator

The conference has now concluded. Thank you for attending today's presentation. You may now disconnect.