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Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to Titagarh Rail Systems Limited Conference Call.
[Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Parth Patel from Orient Capital. Thank you, and over to you.
Thank you, [ Mike ]. On behalf of Titagarh Rail Systems Limited, I extend a very warm welcome to all participants on Q2 and H1 FY '25 Financial Results Discussion Call. Today on the call, we have Mr. Umesh Chowdhary, Vice Chairman and Managing Director; Mr. Prithish Chowdhary, Deputy Managing Director; Mr. Saurav Singhania, Chief Financial Officer. Before we begin the call, I would like to give you a short disclaimer.
This call may contain some of the forward-looking statements, which are completely based upon our belief, opinion, expectations as of today. These uncertainties are not a guarantee of our future performance and involve unforeseen risks and uncertainties. And with this, I would like to hand over the call to Mr. Umesh sir. Over to you, sir.
Thank you very much, Parth. Very good afternoon to everybody, and thank you once again for joining us to discuss the Q2 FY '25 earnings. We are happy to share with you that the quarter gone by has been the best ever quarter in terms of the top line, marginally better than the previous best, which was last year.
And we have registered a decent growth in our EBITDA on all parameters. I would not repeat the numbers since they are already available in the presentation and in public domain. But I will just restrict myself to give you a little update about various issues and various projects that are going on, which I'm sure would be of interest to everybody who is there on the call.
As far as the Freight Wagon is concerned, the first segment of our business, we have done close to 900 wagons per month on an average in the last quarter. So the total wagons that have been sold are close to 2,700, 2,670 to be precise, so an average of 890 wagons or 900 wagons. We are fully confident that this quarter or maximum in the next quarter, we will start producing and dispatching wagons with a run rate of an average of 1,000 wagons per month, that is 3,000 wagons per quarter. The order book pipeline from the railways based on our understanding, based on our discussion, looks healthy.
The railways are very much on track to achieve their 3 billion tonnes of freight loading by the year 2030, which means that their wagon requirement should only be the same or accelerate going forward. So therefore, we have made sure that within this quarter or latest by the next quarter, we are able to consistently touch or exceed 1,000 wagons on an average basis per month.
On the other side, we have also taken up expansion of our foundry capacity because of the constraints for the bogeys and the couplers. We have ordered -- we had ordered new lines for our balancing equipment for the foundry. And we believe that by the Q1 of FY '25, '26, the foundry capacity will be fully capable to meet with our wagon production of 1,000 wagons per month, which means the dependence on the outsourced bogeys and couplers would come to an end for maintaining the current -- or the current planned level of production.
On the other side, the PRS, the Passenger Rail System, we have 3 segments within this segment, which we operate. One is what we call the commuter train, which is the Vande Bharat. One is the metro coaches and the third is the propulsion and electricals. So I'll start with the metro. As we have already discussed and disclosed in the past, the Pune Metro projects gotten completed.
And thereafter, there was a gap because we were setting up the stainless steel production line and the production for the Bangalore Metro had to be started. This production was delayed by a few months due to certain problems that could not be envisaged or resolved very quickly. Primarily, it was relating to availability of visas for the Chinese engineers as the Bangalore Metro is being done along with CRRC and the Chinese engineers' presence was essentially in Kolkata. Now, of course, the visas have been issued.
Also the equipments that were procured from China, some of the robotic equipment, some of fixtures, they could not be installed.
But now that is all done and the production, both for the new stainless steel car body line as well as the fitting assembly and testing line has begun. We are expecting that within December, within this quarter, the current quarter, we will dispatch the first train of Bangalore Metro, and we are well on track to be able to do that. On the other project, which is the Gujarat Metro, we are planning to give the first train to Ahmedabad in the first quarter -- sorry, in the last quarter of this current fiscal or latest by the first quarter of the following fiscal, which is April 2025 -- quarter of April 2025. The design of this was launched and was presented to the Honorable Prime Minister when he was inaugurating the Phase 2 of Ahmedabad Metro that was already in the media, and it has been very well appreciated by the public and by the authorities.
It is the first train that is being fully designed and manufactured in stainless steel by Titagarh as the CRRC or the Bangalore Metro was a design of CRRC. On the second SBU, which we have is the commuter train of Vande Bharat. Here, again, the progress of the designing activity has progressed very well. However, the operational requirement of the railways necessitated that they replaced Vande Bharat sleeper trains with the new Vande Bharat sleeper trains we used as a replacement for the old Rajdhanis and Shatabdis, et cetera, the skipper long distance train, which operate now on 24 cars, and this contract was for 16-car configuration.
As a result of which some time was spent to discuss the technical, commercial and all other contractual provisions, although the contract clearly provides for the railway to be able to do so.
We are coming close to a conclusion for this, and we expect that the first train, which was scheduled to be delivered in June 2025 will now be delivered by December or January 2025, '26. Of course, we will be able to make up going forward because it's a long series production.
On the other side, both our design work as well as infrastructure building work is going on exactly as per plans. The equipment that we have ordered for the commuter train line, particularly Vande Bharat, will start arriving from November, December this year and starting to get installed. We are planning to start the production of the car body for Vande Bharat, which is the first step within Q1 or beginning of -- within the end of Q4 of this financial year or beginning of the Q1 of the next financial year. As regard the propulsion and electricals SBU is concerned, as we have already highlighted in our presentation, we have ramped up the production of traction motors.
We are further ramping it up, and the target is to cross an average of 100 traction motor a month, which we will be able to do within Q4 of this financial year. Thereafter, we will look at further expansion as the requirement for traction motors is substantive in the railway system. We will look at ramping it up further maybe in another couple of quarters or 3 quarters to 150 traction motors a month.
On the other side, we exported our first converters to Italy, which has been very well received by the customer, and that production line has already started. For the EMU and MEMU traction system, we are now in the final stages of approvals and testings and approvals, and we are expecting that in Q4 of the current financial year, our prototype propulsion will be dispatched to ICF or the other railway customers that we have. On the metro propulsion side, the TCMS work for the Gujarat Metro with ABB is moving as per schedule, and there are no delays or no risks that are associated.
In a nutshell, this is as far as the overall business is concerned. Very, very quick word on the joint venture on the Wheels. The project is going on as per schedule. It is moving very well on track. The civil work and the machinery installation should get completed by end of calendar year 2025, and trial production should begin thereafter. So that is an overview of the quarter gone by, and I'm very happy to take any further questions that may be there from the participants. Thank you very much.
[Operator Instructions] We have the first question from the line of Gagandeep from Investec Analytics.
Congratulations for a good set of numbers.
So my question is specifically on Freight Car division. We performed decently in this quarter in terms of volume. Can you help me to understand going ahead in next 1 or 2 quarters, what kind of order inflow do you see in this segment? And what kind of execution do we see here in second half of financial '25?
Thank you very much. As far as the performance for the coming couple of quarters is concerned, as I've already said, that within this current quarter, that is the December quarter or latest by March quarter, we will stabilize at a run rate of 3,000 wagons per quarter or 1,000 wagons per month for -- going forward.
In terms of new orders, we already have an order pipeline to see us through for the -- almost the next few quarters. We've already disclosed some numbers in the presentation. There are continuous tenders that are coming up to the railways, and we believe that now we would like to be building up further order books, and we are moving towards doing that.
We have the next question from the line of Amay Sharda from Purnartha Investment Advisers.
Sir, am I audible?
Yes, we can hear you.
Okay. Sir, could you just highlight the time line for the Bangalore and Ahmedabad and Surat Metro, what is that expected time line by which you will be able to deliver the trains?
Yes. As I mentioned, sir, at the Surat -- sorry, the Bangalore Metro, the first train will go out this quarter. And thereafter, every month, we'll be dispatching between 1 and 2 trains after a gap of a month maybe. So that will be on streamlined production. The first train of Ahmedabad is likely to be dispatched in the vicinity of April or May 2025. Then there will be testing and commissioning and thereafter, the regular supplies maybe in a gap of 3 months will start again as per the delivery schedule, which will be followed with the Surat Metro.
Okay. So sir, can we expect the Bangalore Metro to be delivered entirely in FY '26? Or will it go beyond that?
No, it will not be entirely in FY '26 because the number of -- so this Bangalore Metro, unlike the other metro is for 6-car configuration. We have order of 34 trains, and we will be starting with delivery of 1 train per month and then gradually increasing it maybe in another 4, 5 months to 2 trains per month. So it will be spilled over to FY '26, '27 as well.
And we'll be doing the Bangalore and Gujarat Metro simultaneously, right? Or like first Bangalore and then Gujarat?
No, no, no,. It will be simultaneous.
We have the next question from the line of Vikas Reddy from Lakshmi Kali Investments.
Sir, congratulations on good set of numbers and maintained good freight wagons production. Sir, my first question is, sir, as I can see in the last exchange filing that you have short closed the 3089 BCNA wagons. What's the reason behind that? And are we looking good margins in PR segment for the short closed wagons?
So as we have already disclosed in the same filing that the reason for the short closing was that this was relating to an earlier tranche which was carrying on as a backlog. And if we took up the execution of that now, it would not be financially rewarding to us, and it would also block up our entire capacity.
And considering the overall demand situation and also the fact that the railways had already initiated the exercise of the option quantity by which the first part of the option quantity of 700-odd BOXN wagon was released. In the overall balance of economic sense, it made better sense to short close this 3,000 wagons.
Therefore, it was done. There is no additional impact that it will make because we already have an order book of more than 14,500 wagons as on the 1st of October. So the company's performance is not at all impacted on this account.
Okay. Okay. My second question is, sir, in the month of August, Indian Railways canceled INR 30,000 crores of Vande Bharat tender to Alstom India for 100 Vande Bharat aluminum train sales. So if the rebidding is happened, are we interested to participate further? And we are only the company to make in India and made in India?
So not only we are the only company in India to be made in India, but we are the only company in India, which has made aluminum coaches in India. The Bangalore Metro coaches that we have manufactured and supplied are the only trains that have been made in aluminum. So definitely -- sorry, the Pune, not the Bangalore, the Pune. So as and when this tender does come up, we would definitely be interested. Of course, each tender is evaluated by us on the merit of the tender at that particular point of time. But in principle, this is something which is very much our power alley.
Okay. Okay. And my last question, sir, in the decline in Passenger Rail segment in this Q1 and Q2 quarter, so when can we expect the PR segment start contributing to revenues?
As I just mentioned, the production will be streamlined from Q4 of this year and will start growing from Q1 of the next year when the Ahmedabad also starts.
[Operator Instructions] We have the next question from the line of Rajesh Bhandari from Nakoda Engineers.
Congratulations for the good numbers. [Foreign Language] Can we expect by '25, '26, the turnover may even be more than double?
That is a very difficult question to answer because that entails giving forward-looking guidelines. But we've already given you the overall position. In FY '25, '26, we will start the Bangalore Metro. We will start -- we will stabilize the Bangalore Metro. We will start the Ahmedabad Metro. The Vande Bharat will get stabilized in '26, '27 because the first train is likely to be done by December '26 or January -- sorry, December '25 or January '26. So really, I would say that the full impact of the PRS advantage will start coming to us in FY '26, '27.
'26, '27, yes. [Foreign Language] So is it something about INR 60 crores to INR 70 crores? [Foreign Language].
[Foreign Language].
By '26, '27 then as a company we should be in a very comfortable position because the kind of orders we have and expected.
So we believe we are also in a good position now.
No, of course, sir, of course.
Thank you very much for your wishes.
[Foreign Language] When can we expect to be zero-debt company?
We are a net debt-free company. If you see the cash and the bank deposits with the debt, we are a net debt-free company today.
[Foreign Language].
[Foreign Language].
[Foreign Language].
[Foreign Language] Almost 40% to 50% wheels are sold, already presold for the next 20 years.
To Indian Railways?
To the Indian Railways. Then there is our own requirement, which is Titagarh's requirement. Then there is the export potential. So definitely, that project will -- is looking very attractive and very encouraging.
[Foreign Language].
[Foreign Language].
But we'll be able to compete with China on prices?
I request you to come in the line for follow up questions.
We have the next question from the line of Shrinidhi Karlekar from HSBC.
Sir, would it be possible to update us on the near-term awarding pipeline in the Metro business?
Sure, Shrinidhi. So there are many tenders which are in the pipeline right now. There are several tenders which have already been floated, including tenders in Mumbai, Bhubaneshwar, Chennai, et cetera. Our focus in the last few quarters was not to get new orders, but to stabilize our production lines. And our focus has been given in the last 2, 3 quarters for that. or even more.
Now our focus will again go back that the production lines have started, and we will be going in for a more aggressive order booking spree. So from FY -- let's say, calendar year '25 onwards, we will be looking at building up order book to the next levels.
So the Chennai, Bhubaneshwar and Mumbai, you think most probably calendar '25 awarding of rolling stock is possible?
Yes, I think there will be many more tenders that will come up in the coming year because even -- I mean, every day, we are seeing new tenders being or new projects being sanctioned. Even this morning, there was a news that in Hyderabad, some new lines have been approved by the cabinet. So there is Pune, there is Ahmedabad additional. There is Nagpur Phase 2. So there are a number of metros that are coming up now. And the government of India is really focusing a lot on urban mobility.
Right. And sir, on the Vande Bharat, you kind of alluded to the change of configuration resulting in delays. So would you say that largely the technical and commercial discussions are done? And how are these likely to impact expected margin you're likely to make on this project?
There will be no impact on the expected margins in this Shrinidhi because this is a part of the contract that the train can be increased from 16 to 20 or 24. And by and large, this is only a reconfiguration. The only thing which is there is that because of this change, the first train might be delayed by between 6 to 9 months.
Right. And sir, last one, if I may. Sir, on the Freight Wagon business, the private sector order addition seems to be quite soft. Any particular reason that you may want to allude it to?
No, it is not soft. It is the steel sector has been going slow in the last quarter, as we are all aware. So to that extent, there are certain deferments of finalization, but I do not see this as a softness. I would say that the buoyancy of the demand as we see is remaining as it was earlier. Maybe some decision-making from one quarter to another can be deferred, but ours is not really a very sticky quarter-to-quarter business being a capital good. Decisions can get spilled over by a month or 2 months, which is very normal in the industry.
We have the next question from the line of Harshil Shethia from Renaissance Investment.
Can you just help me with the quantum of orders for the Vande Bharat train? What would be the order size that is -- and is it only with BHEL, the INR 6,000 crores, INR 7,000 crores?
I'm sorry, I could not understand your question. If you could just be a little closer to the phone.
Mr. Shethia, if you could go off the speaker phone, your audio kind of interrupts in between.
Is this better?
Much better, yes.
Sir, whatever Vande Bharat trains we would be delivering would be via the JV with BHEL, correct?
It's not a JV, it's a consortium.
Okay. And the order size of currently, which is INR 7,000 crores, so how would that be bifurcated?
No, the order is not INR 7,000 crores. This is our share of the JV. The total order is larger. And our share of the order is what has been given in the...
Slide?
Yes.
Okay. And sir, one more question that I had. The metro delivery order. So what would be the quantum of those orders in total?
We've already disclosed that. It's there in the presentation also, sir. You'll be able to find it, Bangalore and Surat and all of that.
We have the next question from the line of Akash from Dalal & Broacha.
Sir, I'd like to understand when we say that we'll be delivering our first metro train or rig next quarter, that would involve how many coaches?
The Bangalore is 6 coaches.
6 coaches and Ahmedabad?
Bangalore is 6 coaches, unlike Ahmedabad and Pune, which is 3 coaches.
Got it. So the next quarter would entail somewhere between 5 to 6 coaches being delivered. And the quarter after that, how much can we expect? Will we be able to increase our production rate?
Yes, absolutely. The capacity that we have installed is much larger. And our target is to reach full capacity in the shortest period of time. But definitely, we will start delivering at the rate of 1 train per month and therefore, thereafter, increase it to 2 trains in the first phase and thereafter further.
Sir, I think earlier -- in one of the earlier con calls, you had highlighted that our capacity would be somewhere around 25 coaches per month, right? By Q4 of this year?
That's right. The capacity, we would be -- we have already installed our equipment. And today, all the equipment to be able to produce 25 cars per month is there. Now because there was a delay by about 4 to 5 months or maybe around 6 months on account of the installation of the equipment, the general -- the normal ramp-up time that is required is what is required. I had also said that we target to achieve a production range of around 15 to 20 cars per month to start with. We believe we should be able to reach that run rate in Q1 -- end of Q1 to '26.
Okay. Got it, sir. And sir, just wanted to understand on the Propulsion segment that we have, the propulsion motors, traction motors and converters that we supply. Sir, what would be our margins and realizations in that division?
So we do not give segment-by-segment margins as a matter of competitive strategy. But on an overall blended basis, we have already given a guidance that our 2 business segments, the FRS, which is Freight Rail segment and the Passenger Rail segment, which is the Freight Rail segment, we would continue to get a margin of between around 12% vicinity.
And in the Passenger Rail segment, once we are able to get to normalized volume, then we will be able to get between 10% to 15%, depending upon the propulsion indigenization or making the propulsion as a make item rather than a buy item.
Sir, if you could help us understand the opportunity or the TAM that we have in this Propulsion segment? I mean, I would just like to understand that business.
I'm sorry, could you repeat your question once again?
If you could explain us the total addressable market or opportunity that we are looking at in the Propulsion segment, propulsion motors and converters?
So one train, I'm talking of a newly built train, the propulsion constitutes to about 25% to 30% of the value of the train. [indiscernible] INR 10 crores, it requires propulsion of between INR 2.5 crores to INR 3 crores.
Got it. And currently, we are supplying only in India, right?
Akash, this is the operator here. I request you to kindly come in the queue for follow-up questions.
We have the next question from the line of Parvez Qazi from Nuvama Group.
So my first question is on the wagon ordering generally for the Indian railways, I think in H1, they have given orders for roughly around 7,000 wagons. So in your discussion with railways, what do you see about their plans for ordering in, let's say, the second half of FY '25 and also for FY '26?
And the second question is for the expansion of our coach manufacturing capacity, which is underway, I mean, what is the status? And by when do we expect that program to get completed?
Thank you, Parvez. So I'll answer your first -- second question first. I already mentioned that in my opening comments that the expansion of the capacity is something which is almost complete.
And within this quarter or latest by the last quarter of this financial year, that is January to March, we'll be able to achieve the 1,000 wagons per month run rate. As far as the ordering is concerned, what the railways have been doing is that the special purpose wagons, which are smaller in numbers, which keep -- they keep on coming up with the smaller tenders.
The bulk wagons, which is the BCNA and the BOXN that is always purchased through a large bulk multiyear tender now. So since the previous tender is still going on, the supplies are still to be done for another 1 year, plus there is an option for the railways to exercise. So we hope that in somewhere in middle or maybe earlier part of 2025, the bulk tenders will come. Having said that, smaller tenders are continuously coming, and we see multiple of those coming out from the railways even now.
Sure. Sir, actually, I want -- I'm sorry if I put the question correctly. I wanted to know about the status of the expansion in capacity in the Passenger Coach segment?
Okay. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. On the Passenger Coach segment, as I mentioned, that our line for the metro coach has already been set up now. It has started production. I also mentioned that there was some delay on account of the commissioning and starting production primarily on account of the visa issues between China and India. Now that has been resolved and production has started.
We are now looking at ramping up on a month-on-month basis to be able to reach at least between 15 to 20 cars in Q1 of FY '26 towards the end of Q1. So our target is around June '25, we should be able to reach a production level of 15 to 20 cars per month.
Thereafter, it will also depend a lot on inflow of new orders. And that's where I mentioned that our focus will shift a lot on bringing in new orders in the next year. For the Vande Bharat, our first train production, as I said, will be done by December ' 25 or January '26, and then gradually, the production will ramp up.
But the setting up of the line is going on as per schedule. Our line should be set up latest by April or May 2025 for the entire Vande Bharat.
[Operator Instructions] We have the next question from the line of Mohit Motwani from Tara Capital.
My first question is on your propulsion and electrical. So in this particular quarter, there was no metro coach or Vande Bharat coach delivered. So we made around INR 57 crores of revenue. And your presentation is 185 traction motors. So fair to say the average realization for these would be around INR 30 lakhs per motor or converter. Would that be a fair assumption?
Not really. It would be -- while there are no metro coaches have been delivered, metro coaches have been produced, and this business is always accounted for on a percentage of completion method basis of accounting. So therefore, there is a mixture of metro and propulsion, which has been done. And in the propulsion also, it is not only traction motors, but it is also traction converters.
Okay. Okay. Sure. Got it. And in terms of your EMU and MEMU, which we are planning to start from 4Q FY '25, if that is correct. Any revenue targets that you have in mind for FY '26, '27? What can be the opportunity size for us?
We have a very robust order book for propulsion, we have a robust order book for propulsion. I cannot disclose the number because it's not a part of our presentation, but we do have a robust pipeline of orders as well and an order book. So we will be able to ramp up production in FY '25 overall on the Propulsion business.
We have the next question from the line of [ Nirav Vasna ] from GSK Portfolio Manager.
This is Nirav here. I have a question which is very specific pertaining to our Freight division. So today, we are having an order book of around 14,500 wagons, which is to be delivered. And if I assume that the monthly run rate is going to be 1,000 wagons per month, we will exhaust this order book in max 15 to 16 months. The question is that can this -- can our Freight division be a vendor or supply our wagons to overseas customers after getting -- after supplying a lot of products to India? This is one point that I wanted to understand.
So as far as wagons are concerned, we have exported wagons in the past also. Having said that, there is not a very large-scale market of export for wagons simply because the cost of logistics to import wagons is very high compared to the -- as a percentage of the overall cost of the wagon considering the weight and the volume of the wagon. But I would also like to mention that having a 15-month order book is not really a short order book cycle in this line because unlike the passenger coaches, if you could kindly go on mute, it will be easier for me, please.
Nirav, if you could go off the speaker phone, there's a lot of background sound in your audio.
So unlike passenger trains where the gestation from the order book to the first train is almost 2 years. In the case of freight wagon, the gestation from the order book to the first wagon is much shorter. It is more like 3 to 6 months. So therefore, we do not see this as something that keeps us awake at night.
And according to you, bulk tender or I can say a big tender from Indian Railways for freight, any time line that you can give? Wherein that can be -- that can act as a feeder for feeder for us because as I understand, Indian Railways is now coming up with a concept of bulk tenders wherein once the tender is concluded, the vendors have orders feasibility of around 2 to 3 years. So any bulk tender according to which is there in the offering or any time line that you can prescribe to that, that will...
[indiscernible] bulk tender is already under execution, sir, and it is up to the railway when they come up with the next bulk tenders. But we expect that considering the targets of the railway, considering the target of the government to reduce the logistics costs, overall logistics cost as a percentage of their GDP, the tender pipeline and the bulk, whether it is bulk or short tenders, it is going to continue as it is.
We have the next question from the line of Mr. Sudeep Anand from Systematix.
And sir, just a couple of questions. One is that how do you see the demand coming from the private side during the quarter? And with the new corridor announcement, how do you see the future of it? And secondly, sir, what was our CapEx in Q3 and -- sorry, Q2? And how much we are going to spend in FY '25? That's it from my side.
So as far as the demand is concerned, I think I had already discussed this a little while ago that there is -- the demand of the wagons in the private sector also remains as it is. It is not a very large part of the overall wagon demand. The continuous -- I mean, the railway -- Indian Railway continues to be the largest buyer of wagon.
Having said that, the private sector demand, we expect is going to continue in the same manner. As far as the CapEx is concerned, whatever CapEx was announced in the past has been what we are executing now. There is no new CapEx -- substantial CapEx that has been undertaken by the company in the last quarter.
Mr. Anand, are you still connected with us? Can you hear us?
Yes. That's it from my side.
We have the next question from the line of Khush Nahar from Electrum PMS.
I just wanted to know is there any update on the Sidwal [Technical Difficulty].
Mr. Nahar your audio is breaking up. If you could kindly go off your speaker phone.
Mr. Nahar, can you hear us? Can you go off the speaker phone, sir? Your audio is not coming out clear.
Yes, sure. Is it better now?
Yes.
Sir, may I have update on the Sidwal JV? And can we expect some revenue on that side?
So it is too premature because our JV agreement or association with Sidwal is to develop new products. So we are still in the phase of finalizing the preliminary part of it. It is still far away from contributing revenue to our balance sheet.
And sir, on the Wheelsets, we can expect revenues to reflect from FY '27 on the JV, R.K. Forgings JV?
That's right. We've already -- as I mentioned already, that's what we are expecting.
We have the next question from the line of Amit Kumar, an investor.
Congratulations for good set of numbers. Sir, I have a question that we will be starting delivering Bangalore Metro trains from this month per month. So that means we will be delivering approximately 3 trains per month.
That means 18 coaches. And for Ahmedabad, we'll be starting 1 train from April '25. So if you could provide me the value of per train for Bangalore and Ahmedabad, is it same or is it different? This is my first question.
Yes, please go ahead with all your questions, and I'll try to answer them together, sir.
Okay. So second question is like what is the value of Vande Bharat? And what -- how many Vande Bharat will be delivered per month after December '25? Because we'll be starting first of Vande Bharat in December '25. This is my second question.
Sure. So as far as the first question is concerned, we are talking of delivering 1 train per month to Bangalore to start with, and then it will be ramped up to 2 trains per month. And then we will target to even ramp up further, but we also have to incorporate the other projects into production, which is Ahmedabad, Surat and hopefully, other projects that we will win down the line. So it's not possible for us to disclose apart from what is already available in the media, particular contract value or per coach value of each project.
But in the case of the Bangalore, since we are only doing the manufacturing, the material is all coming on free supply, definitely, the top line of Bangalore will be lower to that extent compared to the top line of other projects. As far as Vande Bharat is concerned, there is a scheduled delivery after the prototype, which is again, partially available in public domain. I can only say that it will start with the first train, then the second train has to be given 3 months thereafter.
Then each year, there is a step-up of production, which is first year is 8 trains, second year is, I believe, 11 or 12 and then it goes up to 20 trains per month -- per year, sorry.
Okay. Okay. And if you could provide what is the bid pipeline as of now? How many orders in terms of value or volume we have as of now?
No, we have participated in several tenders. I would not be able to give you the details of that. But apart from what is already disclosed in the presentation, but I would say that the overall business prospects that are there and the overall spending by the government in the metro and in both PRS and the FRS segment is quite substantial. You can find some data of the likely upcoming tenders in the Page 31 of our presentation.
We have the next question from the line of Bharat Shah from ASK Investment.
Just wanted to understand after the bit of a lull during the election period and all that, is the overall trust in energy of ordering in the railway back to normal?
Bharat bhai, there was never any lull, so to say. There were only restrictions, which are normal restrictions in terms of placing of orders, et cetera.
But what we have seen is that the government functioning even during the election period continued, particularly in the railway ministry in a very orderly and the same pace that they were keeping in the past.
Ours is typically a CapEx production or item, which is very lumpy in procurement cycle. There is no -- it's not a consumer product that will be consumed on a month-to-month basis and therefore, has to be ordered.
So while the ordering it will always continue to be lumpy, what we see as a KPI is whether the momentum of the railway plans, expansions, discussions, they are continuing, and that is exactly on track as per what we hoped or expected.
So which means it's business as usual. Really speaking, the period of April to June or bit thereafter has not really affected our business in any way?
No, absolutely not. The railway's working, when you're speaking specifically about the railway working, no, the railway working or the government working has really kept its pace and its momentum going.
Okay. And our different businesses have different dynamics, our passenger train, freight train, Propulsion business and the Wheelsets JV, all have different kind of business dynamics, dimensions, time lines. But broadly, what we were kind of envisaging somewhere around last year that in a space of 4 to 5 years' time, essentially, our business revenues, not really on a short-term basis or quarter-to-quarter, but over a 5-year basis, we were expecting our overall size of the business to triple, if not more. Does that picture remain -- vision remain intact?
So as far as numbers are concerned, I would refrain from giving any numbers. What I would like to say is that in terms of the vision, our vision remains more than intact. We would continue to be at this 1,000 wagon mark of freight wagons. And if the demand or the targets of the government increases, if the opportunity size increases, we would not be shy to increase the capacity further.
In terms of the metro, we are still planning to be at the 36 cars per month capacity, considering the overall we would -- I would say that even the older metros will start coming up for replacement in a couple of years. So we believe that this demand should be there and the population -- urban population of India is not going to decrease.
And the same is for the commuter trains. So overall, what we are planning is very much intact. From where we are, we are looking at a quantum jump, particularly on the Passenger Rail segment.
Quantum jump only in the Passenger Rail part, is it?
That's right, Bharat bhai. Yes.
And Freight business, I assume, will be relatively more incremental?
That's right. Unless and until the new corridors come up. So we believe that with the -- our belief is that the new power plant capacity, the thermal trust that has been given by the government again will result in a substantial increase in freight loading by maybe another 4 years by the time these power plants are ready. And the new freight corridors that the government has been announcing also in the last budget, they would also start getting commissioned.
And of course, the speed of commissioning is going to be much better than what we have seen in the past. So that will result in the -- or that will lead to the next spurt of the level or let me put it in your terms, that will result in the next rerating of the demand. But as of the current levels, we are -- it's going to be more of an incremental one.
Right. And would it be fair to say that while, of course, inter-period variation and changes is the nature of the business, given the fact that it is order book-driven kind of activity largely. Over the 5-year time frame, each year should reflect a meaningful growth over the previous year.
Yes, it should, but it will not be -- it is not a linear graph because when projects, particularly, for example, Vande Bharat, Wheel projects and all of that is continuing, then the graph of the growth does not become linear. It becomes a little choppy.
In the interest of time, that was the last question for today's conference call. I would now like to hand the conference over to Mr. Umesh Chowdhary, Vice Chairman and Managing Director, for closing comments.
Thank you very much, and thank you, everybody, for participating on the call and once again asking some very interesting questions, which always give us food for thought.
Before closing the call from my side, I would like to wish everybody a very happy, prosperous and healthy Diwali and a wonderful new year ahead. So thank you very much for supporting the company, having your trust, and we hope we would continue to live up to that trust in the next year as well. Thank you.
Thank you, sir. On behalf of Titagarh Rail Systems, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.