Thermax Limited
NSE:THERMAX
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Thermax Limited
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[Audio Gap] lower by 2% at 5,238 versus last year's opening or maybe closing orders of 5,370. Just your arithmetic may not be exactly working on this opening versus revenue recognition versus the new order booking on account of fact that there are some orders which were not really moving. They were removed from the order carryforward. So this 5,230, which number which I have given to you, would have been maybe around 5,450 before correction. The corrections were made to ensure that only the live and active orders are carried forward into the next year. So the live orders itself are just about 2% lower than the last year's similar numbers. Coming to the revenues for the quarter, including the other income, the current year's number is INR 1,354 crore versus INR 2,126 crore with a 36% drop in comparison to the last year. I owe an explanation to all of you. So how can COVID, which is applicable only for part of the quarter and specifically a lockdown, which could have been just about a week, how can it have impacted the revenues for the company, to this kind of a number? The reality was that, we were certainly not going to be notching of the last year's number of INR 2,037 crores. We were aiming to be reaching to INR 1,750 crores to INR 1,800 crores. Everything was geared, including all the factory outputs and our suppliers, which directly send the material to our construction sites also. Unfortunately, for us, we had finished good stock, plus also the equipments which are partially completed but could have been ready in the last maybe 10 days within the factory and material lying on trucks at various parts of the country and equally also material ready with our suppliers amounting to around INR 400 crores to INR 500 crores, we could have pushed it to even INR 500 crores, was the kind of material, which we could not be revenue recognizing. That is the reason for the top line having come down to this level, and it has really hit our bottom line also. Please remember, capital goods companies normally do between 20% to 25%, depending upon the year and the kind of projects you manage, of that in the last month of March only. And in that just also the last 2 weeks is the real push of the material movement from the factories of ours and our suppliers. This is where it has hit the company. And it really also gone to the extent of hitting the EBITDA as well as the PBT. At the EBITDA level, we have come down from last year's INR 200 crore to a INR 79.2 crore. And at the PBT level, the numbers have come down from INR 194 crores to INR 58.6 crores. There are some items which one can talk about where maybe one-off or the reason for the major drop in the profitability. I would do that for the full year rather than doing it for the quarter, if I had talk about the bridge. You would find that last year, for the full year, we made a profit, PBT of around INR 500 crores. Current year, this has come down by INR 125 crores to INR 375 crores, a INR 125 crore drop. Though the turnover has dropped not to that extent. The yearly turnover drop is only 2%, 4%, let's say, 4%. With a 4% drop, our PBTs have come down by 25%, and EBITDA is minus 15% on a full year basis. In that, the treasury income is lower by INR 24 crores at -- I mean, all of you are aware that for the kind of risk that we would take with the treasury, the treasury size being marginally lower and the revenues where profits available from the revenue being lower from the pressure being lower, there is a minus INR 24 crores, it has come down in the current year. Similarly, our Cooling division had a swing of minus INR 14 crores, which is catching up in the current year, the new year, I'm sure it will be able to manage that. Similarly, additional depreciation, which has happened on account of the TBW's integration with the main company. We've had a INR 25 crore hit on to the PBT -- at the PBT level. And we've also had a digitization journey started with an external consultant coming and helping us, a onetime expense of INR 14 crore. So some of this, at least around INR 80 crore, INR 85 crore will be justifiable to bridge the gap of INR 125 crores between last year and current year, the rest is certainly on account of the turnover reduction. Otherwise, operation wise, I would want to guarantee to all of you that there is nothing which has really gone wrong. And as the year catches on, we have entered the year even with the COVID at INR 5,300 crore carryforward orders, and we would expect that Q1 with the -- or most of the factories shut down maybe a washout, Q2 will be improved. Q3 middle onwards, normalcy should start prevailing in the market is our expectation. Now coming to what happened to Thermax's factories? We had to shut down all our Indian factories as per the instruction given by the government from 23rd of March. However, our factories in Denmark, Poland and Germany continue to be running. Even Indonesian factory was running at a very low load for a fairly long period of time. Being a supporting organization to the essential services, the chemical factories of Thermax got permission to restart the activity from 6th of April, all 3 factories. It has taken a week for us to be restarting them. And I'm very happy to report to you that, all 3 chemical factors today are operating at capacities in excess of 50% and maybe even reaching 60%. But unfortunately, for us, our Dahej factory, our neighboring factory had a major fire, which is all reported by SOC Chemicals reported in all the newspapers. And the fireball was so, so big that 2 of our contract workmen, who were running the effluents plant, they lost their life, and our entire factory had to be shut down. And we will have to take a shutdown period of not less than maybe a 30 to 40 days for the Dahej factory to come back to normalcy. There are major damages to some of the structures, some vessels and our entire electronic control system for a fully automated plant. For all that to be put back, through insurance support also, we will not lose any money, but we'll certainly be losing a production of not less than 30 to 35 days minimum, can be even a 40, 45 days. Otherwise, the chemical would have even been running to a level where if Q2, we would have crossed the last year's turnover. But let me assure you, we are possibly working towards up above breakeven and near to profitability for the Chemical division even for a difficult Q1 of the current year. Then the rest of the factories of the company, one by one, we had permission. I'm very happy to state that, the last factory of our company to be getting permission to restart was Pune one, because Pune is the major containment area, but we had the permission for that also. So all the factories of Thermax are running now, ranging between capacities of 25%, the lowest to, 50-plus percentage in some of the European factories. And given our Sri City factory has almost reached 50% production. We never had any contract label difficulty because we do not engage too much of contract labor. So we never had a problem nor are going to have a problem. However, our supply chain, which has got a lot of MSME suppliers, will face the migrant labor difficulty for some time, but we are helping them to ensure that they are able to come back. And as we are catching up on the production line, where we are expecting that by Q3 middle, we should be in a position to be ready to run the factories at full capacity. As much as based on the orders available, we will be supporting a supply chain. One more thing which will be impacting the organization is MSME definition has gone up now. Earlier, up to INR 100 crores turnover were the MSME, now it has gone to INR 250 crores. So many more of our suppliers will become -- are coming under MSME, but the only impact is making the payment on time, and that maybe just Thermax is quite capable, and we have been managing in that phase. And we would support them. It's in our interest to support our MSME suppliers to ensure that we are able to supply our complete supplies on time. That's about the supply chain related. We are not finding any shortage of raw material at this point of time. Even with the latest happening with China, what would be the impact? Because I owe it to you -- it will be since the topics today. Yes, we have got outstanding orders of INR 154 crores from that particular country. Of the total purchase that we would do expected purchase of maybe INR 3,500 crores. It was insignificant. But we need to find alternative sources, which my team is already working on. That's related to the current stand-off between India and that particular country. Having opened the year with, again, no debt, and a treasury impact, we have shifted on to a cash-based working system. Happy to report to you back that, both the months of April and May, we've been able to manage the entire operation without taking anything away from the treasury. On the contrary, adding something little more to the treasury in the most difficult times. So going forward also, we'll ensure that we don't drain our treasury, unless otherwise, it is a real necessity. So the strength of the company's balance sheet will continue to be the same going forward also. In one of the toughest year in the last year, even with almost last quarter where payments were becoming difficult, I'm very happy to inform you that our working capital for the full year has come down. The numbers that's just, maybe to, just to give you an information on that working capital number, do we have that?
INR 128 crores.
INR 128 crores, which is almost at INR 200 crores in the beginning of the year. It has come down to that kind of a level. And the DSO also has come down in that tough year like, last year.So I stop over here, for you -- people to ask me questions. It's a tough year but we are a tough company to manage a tough situation. And be with us. With all your support, we should be able to wade through this current year also. Back to you.
[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Renjith Sivaram from ICICI Securities.
Can you hear me now?
Yes, Renjith. Please go ahead.
And congrats on good cash flows despite the weak execution. Sir, one thing which we observed is that the other expenditure has been a bit high, even compared to last quarter and despite this fall in revenue, so what has led to that? Is there some ForEx impact or something one-off in that other expenditure?
Rajendran will give the answer with numbers approximate in that area, which are the other expense major items.
Yes. So the major expenditure in other expenses has been certain bad debts that we had written down during the last financial year as well as there has been increase in warranty provisions that we have made last year, given certain completion of certain project jobs and at the end of which we have to make some warranty provisions on it as well as some onetime warranty expenses that we have had to incur. So given that, I think our quarter 4 warranty expenses is slightly higher than what has been in the past?
Renjith, in this number, some of them are only provisions. For example, Dangote, it would have reached completion stage. So whenever some projects reach a completion stage, we provide certain percentage of that order value as a warranty provision. And it will be returned back only when the warranty period is over. But there are some warranty expenses also incurred, which will not be returned back. They're already lost out, as we mentioned about. Some of these are all onetime. There is nothing that is recurring. Apart of that, expenses incurred in manufacturing and other areas, we have already -- I told you about that, we have already expanded for an additional revenue of not less than, at least from Thermax' side [ in fact ], forget about the supplier side, okay, that is in his balance sheet. But it is what is booked in our balance sheet will have an additional top line of INR 200 crores, INR 250 crores worth of items manufactured expenses that but not revenue recognized. So that also could add to some of the other expenses.
Okay. So can you quantify that one-off provisioning for this quarter?
For the quarter, the increase has been in the region of about INR 15 crores.
Okay. INR 15 crores. And was there any ForEx related loss or something like that?
So ForEx related impact for the full year has been about INR 15 crores compared to a gain of last year INR 6 crores. So that's a -- you could say, an impact of about INR 21 crores.
Yes. There is a net impact between last year and current year into the full year for mark-to-market of INR 21 crore in the entire balance sheet.
So this year, we had a rupee depreciation at the year-end compared -- so on our forward exchange contracts we had in mark-to-market loss compared to the prior year's reverse situation.
So how much of that was booked in fourth quarter?
Which I mentioned, about INR 15 crores and current year versus a gain of INR 6 crores last year.
Okay. And for the fourth quarter?
Fourth quarter number, I will let you know in some time.
Okay. And sir, if you can give us some outlook regarding our overseas subsidiaries, especially Europe and Southeast Asia, how are they placed? And how do you see next year? Previous year, how was their performance?
Danstoker continued to be loss making, and it did make loss, though we expected it to be turning around, it just not turned around, I would say -- we even make a change at the -- which I had mentioned in one of the concall that we've got a new management and the CEO appointed. We have also stopped all the project businesses over there. Order intake had not been bad for them. Order carryforward is also okay. I mean not substantial, but not negative over there. So there was a loss in Danstoker, continued to be. I don't want to talk anything at this point of time, but the way it is currently operating, looks like, even the first quarter itself, we will be closer to breakeven over there, with all the negatives of India, there, the factories were running. And with the cost reduction expense that we've undertaken, maybe we are closer to that. So it'll turn around in the current year. And inquiry position there is, fairly, positive, because Europe has not gone so negative the way India has gone with the lockdowns and related activity. Inquiries are okay. Orders have to be concluded. We have a carry forward for the first quarter and maybe little for the second quarter, but orders are getting concluded there also. Coming to Southeast Asian subsidiary, of course, it is expected to be negative because in any case, only in the first year, we are supposed to be making profit. But the losses have come down of Indonesian edifice last year versus the year prior to that, which is an indication that, it is in the right directional movement. And we are closely watching it also in that part. So that's about Indonesia edifice. So these are the 2 running major ones outside India.
Can you quantify the losses of Danstoker and Indonesia?
Normally, we do not tell that, Renjith.
Okay. And sir, lastly, the breakup of order intake, order book, the segment-wise, if you have it there?
Yes. Yes. Certainly. He will give you -- he'll give it to you.
Order intake, right?
Yes.
You wanted it for the full year?
Full year and for the quarter.
Okay. For the Energy segment, the order booking, for the Energy segment is INR 4,476 crores, Enviro is INR 741 crores, Chemical is INR 416 crores. Oh, I'm sorry, I gave you the last year number, no? I am sorry, Renjith. I'll give you the current year numbers. For the full year of FY '19/'20, Energy segment is INR 3,280 crores, INR 1,777 is the number for Enviro, Chemical is INR 441 crores. The total is INR 5,498 crores. And the order balance for the Energy segment is INR 3,557 crores, for Enviro is INR 1,601 crores and Chemical is INR 80 crores. And the total is INR 5,238 crores.
And if you can give the breakup in terms of domestic and export.
Okay. You're talking about the order balance, am I right?
Yes.
Okay. So order balance, the domestic is INR 3,795 crores, and export is INR 1,443 crores.
Ladies and gentlemen, we also have Mr. Ashish Bhandari in the call with us. The next question is from the line of Bhavin Vithlani from SBI Mutual Fund.
So at the outside Unny -- we would like to thank you for your gesture of extending your term in the difficult times. My question is more on the outlook. And when you look at the order balance, we have a large part, a reasonable part, which is the FGD, where the execution time line is around 3 years. And the execution time line for the others is slower and we have this COVID-related disruption. So how do you see that you're panning ahead, given that, I mean, adjusting for the time lines, we have a new order book.
We have a decent order book. As I mentioned about, almost similar to last year's number, and going forward also, even during the lockdown period barring the initial 2 weeks' time, work from home has already started even for many of the customers. So for example, the Damodar Valley Corporation order as well as the Tata Power order, they had been engineering happening, approvals happening. And renegotiating the suppliers and activities happening. It may not be a 100% of what it could have happened with all companies running with 100% manpower. So I'm not expecting a substantial delay in the offtake of the movement of the FGD orders. Given the current year, I have an anticipation, and I want to repeat the word anticipation because further lockdowns would have happened because there are a lot of unpredictable -- these are related to how things are going to pan out in the future. The way it is looking today, I'm sure, revenue resignation will also be happening for part of order in the current year itself, in the FGD. And then to give you, -- I mean, I shouldn't be giving the numbers, but I can tell you that, not that no order at all got happened in the month of April or nothing happened in the month of May. We had the orders getting concluded during this time, both from India as well as from abroad. Yes, not the kind of numbers that we're used to getting. But [ tripler ] orders were there. And for a total lockdown and shutdown kind of a situation that prevailed across the globe, I would say there are sectors linked drugs, pharma, food, FMCG, diary, orders were concluded even during this period of time. And we've done a district survey with all our customers. We were in touch with every customer of Thermax who could carry forward orders, partly executed or yet to be executed orders, about their opinion on how to go about with the order. Everyone, almost 84% of them, unequivocally told that we are going ahead with the project, balance told that give us some time to come back to you, because we need to see how our cash flows are going to be panning out and do we need to be having the equipment bought in a hurry? Otherwise, 84% also are very clear that they are going ahead with that. They also are worried about the fact that they are not -- their factories are shutdown. So thankfully, most of the sites have reopened, which I possibly didn't mention in the opening talk that, I'm very happy to say that almost 90%, 95% of our construction sites are already on. And we have been able to retain at least more than 50%, 60% of our labor through the labor contractors. We have taken care of them. And as the capacity requirement for construction reaches maybe anything more than that, we should be able to attract also the migrant labor to come back and start the work. I don't think that is going to be impacting Thermax' movement. Yes, the dip on account of the factories being shut down across the country for almost 60, 70 days will have an impact on the entire industry, economy and the world also. So we will be a part of that. But as the reopening happens, I'm not entirely worried about that. We have got orders on hand. They are good orders. And the bad orders, which could have been there, not that there -- it wouldn't have -- the move you've already taken -- removed them from the carry forward of it. That's the reality.
So second thing, you briefly mentioned on the supply chain, where a large part, you mentioned INR 3,500 crores of procurement from China. And we have a large part of procurement also, which comes from the small and medium-scale enterprises. And that section is specifically showing weakness. And so we've got -- we've been able to get more out of the suppliers on the pricing as well as on the working capital front. Do you see that the situation may actually turn adverse maybe for the short to medium term?
There are some sectors of the vendors who may get into difficulty. And their difficulties are on 2 counts. Number one is related to availability of labor, that's the most important one. Second is the cash position for them. Our own survey will give them -- conducted a vendor survey to analyze the risk, where are we standing on that. And I'm very happy to tell you that 46% of our vendors don't have any kind of difficulty either on the working capital bit or the labor issue. The issues are with the balance 44%, of which we also know who are the ones having difficulty for manpower. But when they talk about manpower, it is not for running at half the capacity but if they would run at the full capacity. Since I'm also working beyond Thermax's thing with the government of India related to the migrant labor. Just to keep all of you informed about. I chair the National Committee for Confederation with the Industry, for the Industry Relations, which means labor. And we are totally seized upon. Happy to inform you the first 2 weeks of June has seen a lot more or reverse migration, re-reverse. The people who went and migrated and reached over there, they know there is no livelihood, and factories are opening. Their biggest worry was that, will they have work available? So work has already restarted in most of the factories in India, currently opened. So with that kind of a positive thing prevailing, many of the people are coming back. So when do we need in our suppliers premises 100% contract labor or the migraine labor? I would say, you need only second half of Q3 onwards, since the time in India will be needing India migrant labor to come back. And I'm very happy to tell you that, most of those who returned, most of them, I can't say 100%, will come back also. They may not come back to, say, possibly for the construction industry, they may not go back for the home servant or maid equivalent, they may not come back, where there's an exploitation. Construction industry is also equally responsible for ensuring that they -- I mean, left on the road, which forced them to go. But the MSME industry, which has got a fixed location of manufacturing, and also got decent enough salaries being paid, I'm sure that we also ensure that our supply chain also practices a minimum standard of operation, minimum wages are paid. All that is something which we do practice. They will be able to get their workmen as and when they are wanting. So there is no major risk for that kind. Will it mean that 100% there is risk free? No. There are some of them who may have a cash difficulty, because they were already in difficulty. With the current thing happening, they would have got them to -- much deeper difficulty. So there what Thermax will do is, we do not want to give anybody cash because that's not the way we want to operate. But we can support our suppliers by buying raw material, which are meant for our supplies, which is what we are resorting to do. So we will take care of their labor-related area. We will also support them on the material availability and cash flow. And we'll make payments well in advance, even, why should we wait for 45 days, if somebody is in difficulty? We can might as well pay them in advance also to a certain extent. So we've got money available to support it also. So I don't find for Thermax there will be a major issue. China, if you've not got the number, rightly, let me tell you. I told you INR 158 crores of INR 3000-plus crores that we'll be buying. It's only miniscule. And that we'll have to locate from some other country or we'll see, how we're going to be managing it. But that won't impact Thermax. In fact, on the contrary, I would say that, whatever is happening today is good for Thermax. Because a lot of unwanted Chinese competition, which was happening in India where they were trying to undercut will manage, and there'll be decent enough, profitable order is going to happen, not only in India, in the rest of the world also.
The next question is from the line of Kirthi Jain from Sundaram Mutual Fund.
Sir, first is congratulations on this good execution amidst a challenging time. And also, you have done a very good job on the cash flows. Congratulations for that. My first question is, sir, you had highlighted on this Chinese issue. Sir, roughly, how much would be, say, a Chinese business would be doing on competing to us, sir? What would be the addressable opportunity they would be doing with us in India and in, say, the key geographies, which we are doing in the overseas market?
See. Currently, it has come down substantially. Maybe 3 years back Chinese and Indian capital good companies had a 50-50 share between them. Today, it has come down to very few. Maybe in the cement industry, where the [ mainstream ] recovery related to power plants, they do that. Otherwise, for many of the Thermax areas, they don't compete with us in water treatment. They don't compete with us in, say, air pollution control anymore, though they have done earlier, they are no more getting qualified for NTPC FGD equivalent of that. So it has come down substantially. So only in 1 or 2 sectors. So I would say that, yes, there are secondhand import, which will be happening from there. But those are very small in number. So if I have to really calculate in India, it is not much, but the international market, especially Southeast Asia, in Indonesia, in Malaysia, in Thailand and in Philippines, that entire market, we have major competition from Chinese. Similarly, in the African market also, there is a big competition from Chinese. So that is -- these are the 2 markets where we operate where they have an upper hand over the Indian companies, including Thermax.
Okay. Sir, with regard to the increase in sequential increase in other expenses, one you had highlighted is digitized exchange expense of INR 15 crores and another one, you had highlighted is the increase in the provisions of INR 15 crores. Correct, Sir? Other than that anything is there, sir, the increase in the other expense sequential business?
One difference, you also mentioned warranty expense and warranty provisions. So warranty expenses are also one kind. Warranty provisions are also -- warranty provision will continue, but it is -- it's been a little more in the current quarter. That's only the difference.
So all 3 put together, how much, sir, INR 30 crores plus?
A little more on that because I thought in the Q3, you're talking about only Q4?
Q3 vis-a-vis Q4, sir. There is other increase, expense increase of around INR 70crore. How will you bridge the gap, sir?
So that INR 70 crores, I will give some time for Rajendran to dig or we'll -- thankfully we have come to the office today to talk to you guys, otherwise, I'm entering the office after 70 and odd days. I thought okay, I should talk to you from the office early, but the records, everything should be available. So let me give some time to Rajendran to dig out the delta as much as possible between the sequential Q3 and Q4.
Sir, last question on chemical, is there any key order wins like Indian companies are getting a lot of orders from the overseas company. Is our chemical distribution getting any good traction? And can we expect a 20%, 25% kind of growth in this year, sir, in Chemical division?
20%, 25% will be difficult, but there will be growth in the current year of double-digit percentage. I wish my Dahej factory can undergo this difficulty, as this is a very crucial juncture. The majority of the chemical orders that we're getting are from North America, specialty resin orders. A lot of them ready to give us orders. We were rising up the plant, in fact, my next phase was going to be under commissioning also at this point of time. Because we commissioned in June. Now the dates going to be delayed. But that may take a little of top line out of. That's why I spoke about 20%, 25% won't happen. But otherwise, that 1-month production from there would have also added on at least a 5% additional growth for the company. So let's wait for it to happen, but we'll grow. Chemical is growing. I'm very happy to report that all parts of chemical business are doing quite well.
Or let me tell you like this sir, say, in FY '21, like FY '22, we would be able to get to -- the exit rate would be better, sir, so that we catch up in FY '22, sir, in terms of new orders, new trials, and approvals, will we be doing a better run rate in FY '22, given the current phases of trials and new customer inquiries and orders?
100%. I'm very happy to tell that, there are people who came and visited our Dahej factory from the developed world, both Europe and America, and have qualified us. So those are lot of procedures, which is happening. And despite COVID also I'm confident about the fact that the new orders for Specialty Resins both from Europe and America will start happening, already happening. But there had been some difficulties related to samples being reached over there, trials being taken, people traveling, which all should standardize in the second half of the current year. And as you mentioned about, I was very happy when you asked this question, not '21. '22, I'm 100% confident there will be a major rise in chemical exports out of India from our Chemical business will be there. Rajendran, any numbers?
I will have to it a little later.
Later, okay. While answering to somebody else, we will give that number because he's just extracting out of his laptop.
[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Dhaval Shah from Girik Capital.
Yes, sir. Am I audible?
Yes, you are. Please go ahead.
Yes, sir. Sir, my question is on the pharma sector. What sort of opportunity size do you foresee coming out of government focus on increase in the API production domestically? And what -- have you seen any sort of inquiries starting? Just what's your overall sense? Because it's a big number in terms of -- if a lot of production is shifting back to India.
Yes. API should certainly benefit Thermax. In a classical API factory, what you need is a heating boiler, there'll be water treatment and very important wastewater treatment. So these are the 3 main items. Some of the them also may have absorption [ chillers ]. So 3 to 4 business of the company will get benefited from this development. We have started receiving inquiry. Some of them are almost on the closure stage because there are people who have already decided to expand their existing API capacity. Where the orders will get concluded in Q2 itself. And the newer ones, which the government is encouraging to set up, would happen in the H2 of the current year.
Yes. So there was a -- yes, sorry, sir. Yes. Go on.
Normal API plant is the kind that we normally talk about the range, let me say. Can offer a potential for boiler plus water treatment plus wastewater treatment, put together in the range of INR 2 crores to maybe a INR 7 crores, is a possibility.
INR 2 crores to INR 7 crores on a CapEx size of?
The entire -- per plant.
Okay, sir. Any ballpark capacity, like, say, for a 50 to 100 tonnes, how would we read this INR 2 to INR 7 crore number?
This is based on the inquiries that you have received. So I've not calculated that with the API capacity for that. Maybe our guys will do it as an when the market opens up properly.
Got it. Sir, government has announced INR 1,000 crore for common infrastructure facility for a API plant. So our business would qualify in that INR 1,000 crore, what government will be offering?
See, they have not -- even I'm not very clear as to what will that encompass. Is it the land development, government facilities and will maybe the water intake from the -- because most of the places there won't water availability. So that will be even for taking the water from maybe faraway place, bringing it over there, water transportation, waste to be managed. So the key item which I mentioned about nobody is thinking about a common facility. So the INR 1000 crores is a common facility. Unless we're deciding about CETP, common effluent treatment plants, if it is there, then we'll prequalify. Will we take or can we take, that's a kind of thing we'll have to think about going forward.
Got it, sir. And sir, just last question. Sir, about the other industry, the other heavy industry steel, cement, paper, and couple of the others, where do you foresee a significant or a considerable slowdown to happen in terms of ordering activity given overcapacity status or a real slowdown in terms of the consumption of the end product? What is your sense? And would other segments which are growing would compensate the loss of business from de-growing or slowly growing sectors?
My real take for the current year is order booking will be lower than the previous year, 100%, because the larger orders do come from markets like steel, cement, fertilizer, these are the contributors for larger orders, larger size orders. And cement may see continue to be investing in the second half of the current year, some green shoots could be visible. See, the India industry was in a total negative feeling in the month of March and April. May, there was some kind of a positive prevalence of feelings. And I'm very happy to say the first 2 weeks of June had been generally positive across the country for most of the businesses. So we'll have to wait and watch as to will anybody come to a level where they feel let me start placing the orders because they were lot of inquiries under discussion levels of finalization from many industries, including cement, let me be open with you.However, they have gotten into a shell now. When will they come out of the shell and when will they start ordering out is something which one has to wait and watch. However, the oil and gas industry, which I mentioned in the last 2 or 3 con calls related to refinery expansions, ordering will continue to be happening. They are all already vast orders for the civil works, many of the equipments are already ordered out. And they have to go for utilities. So there the ordering will happen. Nothing new will happen in the fertilizers, but I am still seeing the food and food processing has already started setting inquiries, started concluding orders also in the last part of May and the beginning of June. So I am expecting that the guys who were crying, the FMCGs and the food and food processing area will come back. They'll certainly start coming -- because their projects are short duration. Their projects normally take only 1 year to 1.5 years to commission the plant also. So there, we can have an order coming in, part billing also done in the current year itself.So -- but Q1 not be -- I mean, may not be worthwhile talking about order booking. There will be order booking. There is order booking, but not the kind of numbers that all of us are used to. Q2, far superior than that. Q3 onwards, we can discuss about orders are happening and which are the sectors happening. That's the way one should look at it. Because your question was, can the other sectors offset for the larger orders? No, it won't be practical, it won’t be practical. There could be some one-off big orders. If that were to happen, in any case, we'll let you know about it also.
I would request Mr. Shah to rejoin the queue for follow-up questions. The next question is from the line of Renu Baid from IIFL.
Good to see your excellent work on balance sheet and cash flow management for last year. So as we look for FY '21, A, how are we looking at the cost implications of COVID when it comes to execution on the existing projects in hand? And how are you targeting to cope up with this cost increase? And what are the kind of cost actions that we have planned for '21 to offset this impact?
Renu, we have done a site by site and factory by factory, the new way of working and incorporated it already. We have not opened a single site without having all the physical distancing and all the precautionary safety measures be taken, safety is first for the company. So that is already taken care. The cost that we calculated for managing this entire thing at this current level is approximately INR 20 crores to INR 25 crores additional to be spent to ensure that the human safety is taken care of in all the places. That, how do we manage? Well, it will be managed. It will be done. First stage it will be done. Second, how much of that will be coming from customers and how much will be spent by Thermax? In every place where it is done, we are telling the customers to help us. The natural -- and given the customer is in the COVID kind of the situation, you should be able to get a lot of reduction in cost from your suppliers. So part of that should be offset from there. So it's highly unlikely any customer is going to pay me by looking. But for the fresh order booking, it will be a part of the cost included right from beginning itself.
Okay. And last time you had mentioned that we are taking many actions to cut down fixed and variable expenses internally to cope with this kind of uncertainty. So would you have any details or numbers to quantify in terms of what are those kind of savings that we are looking for FY '21, apart from the benign commodity cost, which could provide some support?
First and foremost, there is a 30 different teams are working on every line item of the schedule where the cost is recognized. And there, we are expecting -- I can't reveal the number because the only target given, target will be given outside as the numbers start happening. But I'm confident that we should be able to hit a varying between a 4% to 5% to a double-digit percentage, in every item there will be a reduction in cost. That's already worked out, a good number of people working on them. Next, there has been a voluntary reduction that we've agreed for salary for white collars. For those who are getting salaries above INR 6 lakh CTC ranging between 3%, going all the way up to 20% for the CEO and executive council members, it's already implemented from the last month, already done. There are various other areas where we're looking at manpower because if the orders are not substantial, we may not want to cut the manpower. But anybody who's on a contract equivalent, fixed-term contract, certainly, we'll be looking at how many of them we need to be keeping and how many of them we can get off from the pay list or payrolls. So that's also done.We have given -- we are going to give incentives for the last year. But the current year, there would be -- at least no increments are also going to be given. So there will be a lot of cost reduction at every aspect, on every line item that goes into the balance sheet in the current year. Numbers are -- see, we are reworking -- in fact, I mean, we reworked our [ AVG ] at least 3 or 4 times from the time when we got it approved from the Board in the month of January after the change is happening so far.So we are looking at it on a regular basis instead of giving it 1 number. And we're confident about that orders are available. It depends upon the cash flow of our customers. We will not deliver material and wait for the payment to happen in the current circumstances. We did have a reassurance from the customer is willing to take if I manufacture, and I will get the payment collected within a reasonable period of time. Only in such cases we'll compromise on the top line, but we'll compromise on the middle line and the bottom. That's where we are moving, Renu.
I would request Ms. Renu to rejoin the queue for follow-up questions. [Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Akshat Hariya from Multi-Act Equity.
Sir, my question is on FGD, I would like to know your views on what's happening over there in terms of execution, the time lines, what's happening on working capital receivables and new order and also on whether the deadline would be moved ahead? Or how is the government thinking about it if you would have any views on that also?
Yes, Akshat. From whatever I'm aware of it, the original ordering done in the first lot and the second lot it has taken a much longer period of time to start lifting up on the ground level where the orders were awarded because approvals related to -- this being a first item in the country, it's taken a longer period of time. And thankfully, companies like Thermax have got an advantage of not having participated in that because whatever the learning in that point is also helping us. So that's part number one. So execution is happening at the lot 1, lot 2 and lot 3. Lot 4, which we are a part of that also is now started moving, it started moving. So perfectly okay on the account. There, the next question is initially, those who have taken the orders, they had agreed for a 35% retention, 30% plus another 5% also on various accounts. So taxes not being paid equivalent or equivalent put together. Those guys are having difficulty in cash flow. And I'm aware of the fact that, but nobody may declare or talk about in public but this cash flow -- because you're getting paid only 65% for what you already supplied. Nobody can ever work on 65% material cost and processing costs in this kind of items. So they have cash flow difficulty. Thank god, we didn't participate. And I'm aware of some of them -- I mean, one thing to ask for price variation, but I don't think anybody is in the mood to talk about it. So execution is for the initial lots were moving very slow, but they started catching momentum now. And the current order, which got declared where Thermax is also recipient, there is a moment in terms of execution. There is no slowness at all of any kind, even during COVID period as I mentioned to somebody earlier to one question, there had been movement in terms of engineering, engineering approval, placement of purchase orders, all that is going on. And ground level activity will, in any case, is expected to be happening only in the second half of the current year. So we are gearing up for it. And both the companies haven't expressed any difficulty related to how they would be funding this going forward. Now the next question related to will the rest of them get postponed and then will there be extension given by the government. Nobody has sought extension so far. Knowing fully well the health of -- financial health of some of the balance remaining months, which means state electricity boards, I possibly believe that there may be an extension available to state electricity boards. But NTPC and central government organizations and the private industry will not get extension. They will be going ahead with the next lot. In fact, we've submitted our offer during this period of time also. And technical discussions are going on. And price bids will also be submitted both for private industries remaining months as well as for the NTPC, the first lot going to take place. So state governments, they don't have money. And I don't think anybody would be even bid for them at this point of time even if they come out with the tender. That's the reality. Is that okay, Akshat?
Yes, yes. Sir, just 1 follow up. So sir, if I'm not wrong, your view was that private sector would take some time to come out with their tenders. So now private sector has been moving.
Yes. They're moving. And let me also tell you there are others who are running in heavy metal industry, capacities of captive power plants going all the way to 750 to 1,000 megawatts, especially aluminum industry, where they've imported maybe boilers from China or maybe some of the -- from Indian suppliers also, 150-megawatt in multiple numbers. There are also smaller plants, which have not ordered the FGDs. They are all being asked to go ahead with that. So there are inquiries in the market for 150-megawatt also, 210-megawatt also beyond the 550 also.
Okay. So sir, since the deadline will be near now, and there would be shortage of supply, some sort of shortage of supply because a lot of orders have to be fulfilled in a short period of time. So there could be some price hikes?
Unfortunately, the market dynamics of theories that we learned in the management institute says that the market should fare bigger margin when things are like this, but the competition is so bad that they don't allow the price to lift up, that's the reality. But the consolidation in terms of the smaller players moving out, and the initial guys who are very adventures in pricing, having seen how much money are they going to be losing and expecting all the orders to become profitable in the country, not anymore the way it went in the beginning where people lost money to take orders, that won't happen. So there'll be profitable orders. Can the margins move up to the kind of margins that all of us are wanting? I doubt in the current circumstances, anybody would come to that level because everybody is in need of orders. And uncertainty means that people will under bid.
I would request Mr. Hariya to rejoin the queue. The next question is from the line of Viraj K from Securities Investment Management
I didn't get the name of him.
Viraj K from Securities Investment Management, your line is unmuted. Please go ahead.
My name is Viraj Kacharia. Congratulations for good numbers in such a challenging environment. I just had a follow up to the FGD questions you answered. So if I just for a second just talk about lot 1, 2, 3, and you talked about the terms being not that favorable, even before COVID kind of hit and there is no discussion yet from NTPC or anyone in terms of either easing the credit terms or really looking at the margin structure. So do you think is -- are any of the orders may be up for retendering because a lot of these companies may not be able to fulfill the whole order execution? Do you see any of those elements happening? And also, are there demands by the customers say by NTPC for lots 1, 2, 3, that if in case there is a deadline not met in their execution time line, then we may actually impose a penalty of any sorts?
LDs are already there in all of them and NTPC kind of companies, all PSUs are very well-known for cutting LD. Whatever you might do, unless delays because of -- because of the suppliers, they will cut the LD, that's for sure. That's point number one. And this is already there as a part of the tender. To my reckoning, they have not approached any suppliers so far for the existing contracts for any further price reduction. And will there be a retendering? No, for the orders awarded because nobody will want to take a chance with NTPC to abandon and order unless the company is already bankrupt. They would beg, borrow, but complete the project so that they have the -- not get into the black list of NTPC because it's a very promising and very, very important customer for every supplier or contractor in India. Then comes -- retendering already happened for the lot number 3 onwards, there had been retendering for some of the sites. Wherever the lowest bidder was more than 10% to 20% of the original budget they had kept, all of them are gone for rebidding. But the rebidding of NTPCs, they have not been very fruitful. Because there was 1 particular case, I will not name the site where the original budget is equal to 100, the L1 was almost 170. And they wanted -- they went for rebidding thinking that there would have been some cartel working or anything. And in the rebid, the L1 has come from 170 to 190. So they didn't have a choice but to go with the highest price in that account. And just to let all of you know, Thermax is also part of either the first bid or the second bid. So we are not a part of everything what has happened, but I'm privy to the information. So this rebidding from NTPC lots happen only when the budget of what they kept versus the actual bid. The gap is too high, then they call you the L1 for a negotiation asking them to match the price to whatever their budget is, which is impractical for anybody to do that. So then it goes for rebidding. Otherwise, I don't expect any of the ongoing orders, where a supplier or a contractor will run away, and it will come for a risk purchase and the rebid. So far has not happened, nor I'm expecting anything will happen up again.
Okay. But when you say that -- saying a lot 1 to lot 3, is the execution now as per the time line or you see delays there in the sense? Why I'm asking this because there will be some cost escalation. And in that case, the suppliers are the ones who kind of bear this because the margin structure and the terms either way and lot 1, 2, 3 are either way much lower than what you probably are looking at in lot 4. So how does it really work out in terms of cost escalations or any of those elements? That's one. And second, you talked about the -- how you've talked about the overall retendering, the price being higher than the initial bid in lot 3. So considering that, one would think that the margin structure in lot 4 and onwards would be much higher, but your commentary says other way. So why is that?
No, no. The margins have improved. And earlier, there were no margins. In the beginning, people just took the orders without understanding what does it mean to set up an FGD and what will be an NTPC or technical terms mean. So that is where it should have happened, but that's only in the first lot. Later -- because there were also uneven competition. Now the competition is only with good companies. I mean the people who bid for it are only 4 or 5 of them. I mean it's only the well-known larger companies who are participating in the bid, and none of them will ever take a wrong order unless the wrong estimate happens, which, of course, will suffer in that one. Margins could have improved, at least from negative to positive, which has already happened. Will it happen further, as Akshat had asked that question, which I doubt because in India, in the tendering, which happens in the PSU, I've never seen where all of them are quoting similar kind of prices. Always, the gap between L1 and L2 will be a 10%. And L1 and S1 would be maybe 30%, 40% also. That's the way it happens. I don't know hey why it happens, it happens that way.
I would request Mr. Kacharia to rejoin the queue. The next question is from the line of [ Paramvir Singh ] from [ TMC Mutual Fund ].
So sir, I was just trying to understand, we had done this investment of almost around INR 450 crores on key initiatives, Indonesia absorption chillers and kilns. And I just want to understand like in terms of the ramp up versus what we are expecting earlier and what could be now over the next 2 to 3 years from Capex, how we see the revenue scale up in Indonesia and in the new adoption chiller plant? And what are the challenges you are facing in Indonesia because it seems that the ramp up is slower than what you are earlier expecting?
You're right, [ Paramvir ].I'll go one by one. The first 1 on the chemical plant, the commission in Dahej. Very happy that it is really helping Thermax to rise up the chemical business and especially the profitability because we are able to produce very high quality in a highly automated plant. So there, we are able to get and scale-up is happening, faster rise will happen or we would have had some small impact, but otherwise, it will be out of all of that and will do very well. So it is paying back. And our Phase 2 expansion to rise the capacity from 12,000 to 22,000 is on course, excepting for, which I told you the accident, which has happened in the nearby factory, which have pulled me down by maybe 1 month, 1.5 months. Otherwise, all doing well. And really I'm thankful that we have been able to put that plant up, which will certainly help our resin business to grow and increase the profitability. It is happening already. All good things. Next about Sri City. We had hiccups in the beginning, but it's settled in every possible way. Very happy to say that despite my closure of Pune facility shortly for chiller making and also Chinese factories shut down and we follow the land and factory also, this modern plant of mine is supporting the cooling business. We had issues related to -- again, one of the most automated engineering factors of India for heavy fabrication. So there, there would have been some difficulties. We have overcome all of that. And that factory is today able to supply to any customer and any capacity and best quality possible for absorption dealers in the world. So that's also taking shape. It will do well. We had some setback last year on the profitability of account of some of the material, which we had to be shifting because supplier shifting has taken a little longer time, so a little over expense sort of happened but everything is under control over there.Third is the Indonesian investment. You're right on that. Not that we have wrong in anything. We continued getting larger orders which, again, we had to continue making the components in India, not the Indonesian factory. So the focus has totally shifted to smaller size of orders, where 100% manufacturing is possible in Indonesia, number one. Second, we will also be adding on some more machinery over there to ensure that even medium-sized boilers can be made if the market is shift in that particular fashion. And very happy to say that in the last few months, there had been certain major orders that we've been able to receive. And before corona happening, we were on the finalization platform, 3, 4 projects which were sufficient to maybe make us come back to normalcy in comparison to the original plan. So it could have got postponed because of corona, but that will happen also. So come year-end of the current year, we should be on course for Indonesia also. So these 3 investments we have done, just to repeat for those who have not heard it from me earlier, were to ensure that the product part of the business portion, portfolio of Thermax has got a faster growth possibility so that we have a derisking of the volatility of the balance sheet done, which normally occurs because very large and chunky orders happen in EPC or maybe in the boilers and heaters. And we have not really invested in capacity building for the other business, that is where we put in the money, and I'm very happy to say all 3 of them are -- 2 of them are already online. Third also will come online in the current year.Rajendran wants to give some numbers. So I think he's ready with that. So can you please help them before we proceed. Please tell the numbers.
Yes. Okay, so I think there was a query on the Q4 versus Q3 other expenses increase on the consolidated financial numbers. So primarily, I think the increase has happened in our freight outward expenses on account of large export projects getting executed. The freight expenses being in our scope, these expenses incurred. The second is the site expenses being higher. We had -- a few of the power projects that we had picked up for execution coming up for major site work in this quarter. And so site expenses has increased compared to the past quarter. So that's another reason. And then there have been many other smaller increases in our royalty, repair, rates and taxes and certain other item hit. So I think those constitute. I think the majority is, of course, the items that I explained in detail.
So that is the question somebody had asked. I think Akshat, not Akshat, somebody had asked, Dhaval has asked that question. So it's the answer for it.
The next question is from the line of Bhavin Vithlani from SBI Mutual Funds.
So Unny, maybe if you can give us, I mean, like you've been giving historically, how is the breakup of the order flow on the sector wise last year? We know about the FGD order, but it will be helpful. And maybe if you can give some outlook on the larger projects, you mentioned about a refinery. It will be helpful if you can quantify that.
Do we have that sectorial...
Yes.
Just take it out, in the presentation. Just hold on for a second. Yes. Just take out from the presentation. So that -- he is getting it on balance -- yes, Rajendran, why don't you tell the numbers?
Okay. You needed the order inflow sector wise for the full year...
Yes, yes, please.
On a consolidated basis.
Yes.
So the order booking on a consolidated basis for segment wise is as follows. For Energy segment, the total is [ 3280 ].
I'm sorry. Sorry to interrupt. Actually, I was looking at the sector, like historically, you've been giving the breakup, cement, steel, power, pharma, food processing, et cetera.
Industry wise.
I don't think we have prepared it in the work from home part of it, but let me give you an approximation for it. For the year, if I were to look at it, the largest fund happens to be from power because the FGD orders have overshadowed the rest of them. Second area is the food and food processing is -- the entire thing. These are the 2 leading ones. We've had orders also come from oil and gas industry. So some numbers were there. But as a percentage, I won't be able to give right now because it's not completed for the current year. Normally, I agree with you. I prepare it the year-end and tell you about also, even quarter-over-quarter and year also, I do normally give it. But that's not -- that may be in the next quarter when we do it in the month of August, I'll give even for the previous numbers. Is that okay?
Yes, sir. Absolutely fine. And if you can give some color on, what could be the size of the refining opportunity? On the FGD, you mentioned that state is something you may not want to pursue it. But what -- can we repeat the size of FGD orders that we got it current year? And -- but just trying to reconcile...
If you recall, there were 2 of them in the current year that we have registered. One is INR 470-and-odd crores and second one is INR 430 crores. So put together around INR 900-plus crores is what we have registered for FGD from 2 of these. We also have smaller industrial FGD orders, which could have been, say, a few crores could have also come. There are also such kind of FGD orders under discussions, smaller ones and the larger ones.The next one is you asked about -- in the oil and gas industry, we have not booked any large orders. These are all heater kind of orders, which could have been -- see, they would have been an order from -- one of them for a INR 40 crores, INR 50 crore. Another one where we would be L1, I think the orders come equally to maybe INR 70 crores, INR 80 crores. Not any large ones under currently coming. However, we are bidding for heaters and also some boilers in all the refinery expansion program, starting with Barmer. And the other one, submissions are over. Now all the order finalization got postponed by 2 to 3 months. Otherwise, Barmer refinery, most of the orders -- I mean, 3 or 4 projects are already taken by Tata projects, 1 order will go to L&T also. Ours is already under discussion. The areas that we're bidding for heaters times and the captive power plants are under discussion right now. And the technical bidding is over. And the price bid will go in the next maybe 2 months. I'm expecting that we also need [indiscernible] couple of meetings beyond Zoom meetings for such kind of larger tenders. So it may be postponed to where I expected the orders to be concluded in say, H1 itself, may go to the beginning of H2. That's about the refinery expansions in India. Internationally, there are 1 or 2 inquiries at -- crossing the budgetary level for refineries for -- both for heating as well as for the radian boilers for that. They have not come to a purchase level or a final tendering level, but I expect a little more than the budgetary level.
Sir, last time, you mentioned that your refinery order flow current year, if things work out well, it could be about INR 1,000 crores, which you had assumed a 30% stake for you. Would -- that still stand?
It will happen. That is still on, that is still on. And the only thing is where I would have expected it to be coming in, at least by the end of H1 may shift to the beginning of H2. That is it. It could even be Q4 -- Q3, Q4 time. They're on. All of them are on.
Okay. And can we expect some FGD orders also? Like we had INR 900 crores, as you mentioned last year?
Last year. Current year, we are bidding. We will come to know about this. Just one second.
Lot 6.
Lot 6, there are 4 sites on, very large is 1,000 megawatts and the smaller one is 390 megawatt. We'll be participating in the 6 FGD projects, not all of them. We'll be selective about which one to bid for, but we'll be participating. So this lot should be concluded in the current year itself. Certainly, in the current year, it will be concluded. We will be participating in that.
Understand. Yes. Just 1 last question is due to the new norms, you mentioned you're taking safety precaution and there is some cost. But do you see there could be some productivity related compromise, which could add to your cost while you may recover in the subsequent new orders, but can that impact the profitability of the current order book?
See, in the beginning, there will be a loss of productivity, especially with the physical distancing needed in construction and in the factories. Thankfully, the capital goods industry is quite at an advantage on this physical distancing. We don't have an assembly line, like the way you find for maybe an automobile, where they have a difficulty because the line is already built and it's 2 kilometers or 5 kilometers in length. And they're already [indiscernible] where 2 people will be standing and working. Whereas for us to shift it, all of us operate -- minimum size on any of my factory is 20, 30, 40, 100 acres. And fabrication areas, you can always have extra space available. So space constraint-related productivity loss will be virtually nil. However, there are activities which a helper will be standing close to maybe a welder. So that is not permissible. So I need to be investing in jigs and fixtures, which takes the kind of investment we like to, it will be very marginal. A couple of crores increase will be needed for jigs and fixtures, but that's not going to be double-digit crores of rupees per factory. So that is already being done and will be done also. Same thing will also be repeated for the size. Then the rest of the things are only the process and to be [indiscernible]. There are also costs for transportation of workmen, for example. Earlier, we could put maybe 50 people in a bus. Today, it will be 20 only or 25, let's say there. If that be the case, the transportation cost will go up. But those are all -- when you compare on the size of orders, size of the top line of the company, those could add to maybe a 25 basis point, let us say that. COVID-related, safety-related issues, everything put together, a 25 basis points could be taken for a company, which I think deserves to be done, and I think it will become not only for me, it will become a practice for everybody.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, due to time constraints that was the last question. I now hand the conference over to Ms. Bhoomika Nair for closing comments.
Thank you very much, sir, for taking time out and giving us an opportunity to host the call. And thank you to all the participants for being there. Thank you very much, and wishing you all the very best.
Thank you, Bhoomika. I want to have a word with all my friends also. This is a final one that I will be taking. Next con call of the quarter 1 for the company onwards, quarter 1, I may be present, but I would like certainly to have my successor, Ashish, who's already there on the call, he would be conducting it. For those who have not heard about him, let me introduce him also. He is an engineer from IIT Mumbai, started working with one of the large oil multinationals from the campus. And worked outside directly in India and outside countries in international market, in operations of oil industry. And then he did his Master’s in Business Management from Dukes University (sic) [ Duke University ] in North America. And from there he worked for Mckinsey a few years, then he was in 2 startups in North America. And later, he joined General Electric company, GE, in the product business of theirs in North America.He was sent to India to set up the same business in India for them, including the manufacturing. Post that he was with the Baker and Hughes (sic) [ Baker Hughes ] vertical of GE. And after the consolidation, he was the head of the oil and gas business of GE in India and Asia Pacific from where we took him, and he's joined us with effect April. And the day-to-day affairs of the company would be managed with the effect 1st of July by him. I'll be there to help him out for 2 more months. That's why I told about, I'd be there for the next con call as the person to help him out. And he would be conducting it. Ashish, are you there. Are you able to talk now or...
I'm here, I'm here.
Would you like to say some few words to the people who are participating?
Unny, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity and also for the very kind introduction to everybody that is on the call. I humbly accept the responsibility that is given to me to work alongside Unny and learn from him in this very challenging environment. I have nothing further to add on the business, which Unny has done a fantastic job of sharing with all of you. I'll just talk maybe just for a minute about the transition itself. I have been on-board starting the second week of April, April 7 to be precise. And for the last 9 weeks, I have been working with Unny and the team on every part of the business here on the safety procedures and response to COVID, all our budgeting for next year, our analysis. We just finished our Board presentations, doing that, working with the individual businesses on the big opportunities, starting the factories and the sites up. So all of that has given me a good idea about our past, our present and then also what we are thinking of for the future. Unny would very much be there until end of August, mentoring and guiding and working -- helping me out in every which way, and I'll be taking his guidance for everything possible on all accounts. So I do expect that the handover and the transition will be as smooth and even under these current circumstances, we are doing everything possible to make sure that there's nothing that is missed because of the transition. I look forward to interacting with each one of you in a more vocal way in the next set of discussion. And I thank everyone for your time to listen to us today. Thank you very much, Unny. That is all.
Thank you, Ashish. And for those who may want to know as where am I going to go? I'll be around only. I'll -- I've already joined as an independent director on the Board of 2 companies, one is KEC International and second I've joined the Board of Kirloskar Brothers. And I have multiple offers, but I may pick 1 or 2 more. And I will also be teaching in one of the IITs, either Bombay or Delhi, depending upon which is -- the one which is convenient for me. And we'll be supporting -- I'll be active in the industry, not in terms of any executive role, nonexecutive support for companies. That's about it. And thanks a lot for the continued support. I really -- your feedback is what has made me think a lot after every con call or personal discussion with you. It is always given me some learning and I have taken it back and had implemented your questions or answers arising from your question because you look at Thermax differently than any of the employees. And this is a great learning for me, and I'm sure it'll be for Ashish also. Please continue supporting him and his team. You have always supported this great company and make it greater with all your support. Thanks a lot once again. Thank you.