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TCPL Packaging Ltd
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Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to TCPL Packaging Limited Earnings Conference Call. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded.I hand the conference over to Mr. Anoop Poojari from CDR India. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thank you. Good afternoon, everyone, and thank you for joining us on the CP Packaging Q4 and FY '20 Earnings Conference Call. We have the case today, Mr. Saket Kanoria, Managing Director; Mr. Akshay Kanoria, Executive Director; Mr. Vidur Kanoria, Executive Director; and Mr. Vivek Dave, the GM, Finance of the company.We would like to begin the call with opening remarks from the management, following which we'll have the forum open for an interactive question-and-answer session. Before we start, I would like to point out that some statements made in today's call may be forward-looking in nature, and a disclaimer to this effect has been included in the results presentation shared with you earlier.I would now like to invite Mr. Saket Kanoria to make his opening remarks.
Good afternoon, everyone, and thank you all for joining us on this quarter 4 and FY '23 earnings call. I will begin the call today by taking you through the key financial and operational highlights for the period ended March 31, 2023, after which we will open the forum to have a Q&A session.We are delighted to announce the successful conclusion of yet another remarkable year. In FY '23, our consolidated revenues reached INR1,475 crores, reflecting an impressive 36% increase over the previous year. This performance was driven by notable contributions from both our Folding Carton and Flexible Packaging divisions. Despite facing subdued demand, we strategically capitalize on opportunities, enabling us to achieve a healthy growth.On the profitability front, we have achieved a record EBITDA at INR236 crores, translating into strong margins of around 16%. We delivered robust margin performance by successfully mitigating the effects of increased raw material costs witnessed during the year and leveraging operational efficiencies. In FY '23, PBT significantly improved by 98% to INR132 crores. Profit after tax expanded by 136% to INR110 crores and cash profit stood strong at INR216 crores, up 74% on a year-on-year basis. The profit figures include an exceptional one-off income of INR17.3 crores reported in Q2 of FY '23.Here, I'm pleased to announce that the Board of Directors has recommended a dividend of INR20 per share, making it the 23rd consecutive year of continuous dividend payout in line with our dividend policy. In line with our expansion plan, we have successfully commissioned the state-of-the-art advanced offset printing line and associated equipment at our Silvassa facility. Moreover, we successfully acquired and seamlessly integrated neighboring properties to also accommodate the increased capacity space demands.Additionally, plans are underway to install a new line at our Haridwar facility and establish a third line in our flexible packaging plant, both scheduled for the latter half of the financial year '23/'24. These initiatives align with our focus on sustainable business growth while generating healthy return ratios. I'm pleased to highlight that in FY '23, our consolidated return on capital employed and return on equity stood impressively at 20% and 28%, respectively.To enhance operational efficiency, the Board has decided to merge TCPL Innofilms, our wholly owned subsidiary, with the parent company. This integration will result in cost savings by eliminating redundant paperwork and streamlining operations, optimizing resources and improving productivity. We are also excited to announce the addition of Dr. Andreas Blaschke to our esteemed Board of Directors as an Independent Director, which is subject to approval of the shareholders at the upcoming Annual General Meeting. He will serve as an independent director for his time of 5 years.With over 3 decades of global experience, Dr. Blaschke will bring a wealth of knowledge and expertise to TCPL Board. In addition, we are also pleased to appoint Vidur Kanoria as Executive Director, reinforcing business development and administration. Vidur's consistent dedication and expertise have been pivotal in driving the company's sales and revenue growth and contributing to its overall success.As a leading provider of eco-friendly packaging solutions in India, we have established ourselves as a structural team in the industry with quality being the cornerstone of our packaging solution. Our commitment to excellence in quality has been recognized through prestigious accolades, including our recent achievement at Marico Supplier Quality Excellence Meet and SIES School of Packaging's annual SOP Star Awards '22, where we were honored for outstanding print excellence.To conclude, TCPL is well positioned to meet the growing demand for environmentally-friendly packaging solutions. Our focused strategy to grow through diversification has enabled us to consistently outperform our underlying industries. We remain committed to sustainably growing the company in the future for which we believe should help create sustainable value for all our stakeholders.On that note, I would like to end my opening remarks and would now like the moderator to open up the forum for any questions or suggestions that you may have. Thank you.
[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Pavan Kumar from RatnaTraya Capital.
Can you -- first of all, congratulations on a good set of numbers and stable operating performance. I wanted to understand our subsidiaries performance, in FY '23, I understand Creative did revenues of INR32 crores. But how much money did we actually lose in FY '23 on Creative side? And going forward, in FY '24, when do we expect to breakeven? And at what scale do we expect to breakeven?
So Creative's -- we acquired the company in December 2021. And this year gone by is the first 2 financial year that it has been as a subsidiary. I agree that it has taken a little long time to stabilize the company and its performance. But also, we have unfortunately coincided with a kind of a slump in the demand for mobile phones. The overall demand, this past 6, 7 months, has been quite slow. However, we are making good progress and we feel that we are quite poised to achieve a much better performance in the current year, '23, '24, and going forward because a lot of hard work has been done to upgrade the plant, the efficiency, the quality and we have broad-based customer profile also. And therefore, we are quite confident now that, in the current year, we should make money and not lose money. And last year, on an EBITDA, we were almost breakeven, but on a net level, we have lost money, but the company's revenue has grown 31% last year.
Okay. And what do [indiscernible] the revenue potential for this year is?
Revenue potential is about INR100 crores, but we are still far away from that.
Okay. But [indiscernible] expectation that by, let's say, in FY '24 and FY '25 together, we can scale this unit up to around INR100 crores and it'll make similar EBITDA margins as the rest of the business?
Yes. We are trying to scale it as soon as we can. I don't know whether we can go 3x in 2 years, but certainly, we expect to grow quite strongly.
Okay. And on the Innofilms side, sir, do we -- how much money did you lose? Any indication that you can give, please.
So Innofilms, again, is a futuristic technology, but we've had some challenges with the technology itself that the machine has some snags during the year, and some parts had to be replaced with the machine supplier has done and then one more part is on order. So until for another 2, 3 months, it will going to struggle, and then things should start turning around. So here also on an EBITDA level, we have lost money of about INR1.5 crores. But we hope that this year, once the new parts come and the machine stabilize, we should be able to make it up. And however, we have Board of Directors have recommended to merge the company into TCPL because we don't see any reason to keep it stand-alone. So it will get integrated.
Okay. And can you throw some light on the background of Mr. Andreas?
Sorry, what?
Andreas.
Dr. Andreas Blaschke has worked in the packaging industry in Europe in Europe's largest folding carton manufacturer, and he has recently retired from his job there and we know him for a long time. So we requested him to join the Board. He is from Vienna, Austria and his very prestigious entry into our Board, and we are very honored that he has accepted the role.
Okay, fine, sir. I'll get back in the queue. Thank you.
[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Gunjan Kabra from Niveshaay.
Congratulations for reporting good set of numbers. I wanted to understand just one question. I wanted to understand that, right now, this year, the paper prices, such as our raw material, was very high this year and some part of last year also. So paper prices are on an increase in trend, so our -- maybe our raw material cost as a percentage of sales was around, say, 61%. So if we consider the previous when paper prices were not that high, we also had a material cost of say 52%, 58%. So I just wanted to understand that, going forward, and the prices are down now, so can we expect some gross margins to improve going forward and hence resulting in increase in EBITDA margin?
So the paper prices have started correcting since January, I would say, and it is continuing to correct. But once the paper price correct, we also have to pass that through to customers. So I don't see that the margin will expand from here. The margin is already quite healthy. And we're also in a competitive world and the overall demand is fairly soft. So to expand margin doesn't seem likely to us.
Okay. Okay. Thank you.
Thank you.
The next question is from the line of Jeetu Panjabi from EM Capital Advisors.
Congratulations. Great numbers. So I just wanted to get a sense on what are you seeing from a demand side? Are you seeing that the pipeline is still very strong and things will continue to grow? Or do you expect some sort of a slowdown?
I think it's been very surprising that the demand side is not very strong at all. Last couple of months has been quite slow. As you look at the results of our customers, you can see that the volume growth is low single digit. However, the value growth is 10% to 15% typically because last year was a year of high inflation. So the consumer budget has got stretched. And now that inflationary pressures are easing off, so hopefully, volume growth should come back in a better way. There is no reason really for it not to come back. But the last 2, 3 months, I would say that the demand has not been strong at all. And also, a lot of our customers export their products and in general also export them because the Western world is also under tremendous stress, inflation-led. So therefore, overall, I would say, the world as a whole, the demand is under strength, right now.
Right. And that your near future would obviously mirror that as well is what you're saying?
I'm saying that overall there is a stress in the demand. The economy is not as buoyant as we would like it to be.
Okay. And two, is there any new initiatives or new product categories or anything else that would provide another leg of growth, not necessarily next quarter, but over the next year or 2? Is there new things happening that you're focusing on this?
Yes, we are studying a couple of synergetic areas, which are not -- where we are not there today, but it's too early to talk about it, but we are studying what the potential is because we believe that we should exploit our --- whatever synergy potential there is in the packaging space.
Yes. Yes. Okay. And if I heard you right, if I heard you in your previous question, you essentially said that margins have remained stable despite paper prices coming off because you pass that on. Is that a fair understanding that I got on this?
I mean that is -- no, it was response to the lady's question, whether it will increase. So I don't see in this demand scenario, margin to increase, but obviously, we hope that we can maintain what we have been doing for quite some time now. We had a growth in margin last year and that is our endeavor.
Okay. Okay. Thank you, sir. Thank you.
[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Pavan Kumar from RatnaTraya Capital.
Sir, can you -- please, comment on the domestic demand side, in the sense that it doesn't seem to have been like very strong for this particular quarter. But I mean, do we see the demand coming back going forward? Or at least do we expect ourselves to maintain the current demand rate going forward in FY '24 or even that would be difficult to sustain?
I think I just answered this question to Mr. Panjabi that demand is a little weak right now. Whether we expected how we -- it will -- I said that, with the inflation easing off, there's no reason why the demand should not get stronger, but I mean, there's nothing beyond that I can say.
Okay. And can you, please, comment on the utilization on the flexible line and the paperboard separately?
So in the last quarter, if we were to see the Q4, I would say that the capacity utilization is roughly 75%, both in paperboard and in flexible, roughly.
So without any further CapEx, is it a fair understanding that we can hit maybe INR1,800 crores or INR2,000 crores of revenues from the existing facilities?
No, it's not practical to do that much in the current -- without further CapEx.
What would be our peak revenues from the current capacity, sir? If you had to --
I think we can do up another 10%, 12% from what we achieved in Q4.
Okay. Okay, sir.
[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Jayesh from Cask Capital.
Good afternoon, Mr. Kanoria, and congratulations on a good sort of numbers. I just wanted to know what is the status on our Innofilms line. And both in terms of our utilization and customer acceptance for the product.
So as I mentioned earlier in the call, I don't know if you were hearing the Innofilms.
Sorry, I was not -- I joined in a bit late. So I am sorry.
I've already answered this question, so.
Okay.
Essentially, the line has some technical issues, which is still fully not sorted out. We hope it would be sorted in next 3, 4 months. So in the meantime, it is only operating for our own internal use. And yes, I think that in the second half of the year, it should be proper operational level.
Okay. All right. But in terms of customer acceptance of the product, is it independent of our line or with one [indiscernible].
See, customer acceptance is an ongoing effort, it's happening slowly slowly because with sustainable packaging, a lot of shelf life study and adjustments to their billing line, et cetera, is required. So yes, I would say that, overall, there's great interest in this product, there's also a great export opportunity. So it's still very -- we are still very positive about it.
Okay, all right. I think that's it from my side. Thank you so much.
Thank you.
The next question is from the line of Amit Kumar from Determine Investments.
Just one question. I mean, could you just breakdown -- could you just first tell us what is your CapEx plan for fiscal '24, just sort of break it down across the different lines you mentioned earlier in the call, please.
So our -- broadly, our CapEx plan is just above INR100 crores for this FY '24. And essentially, we're adding 3 production lines, one is at Silvassa, which has just started, and there is another line starting in -- being installed in Haridwar and then we are putting a third flexible packaging line in Silvassa, and along with these, there are post-printing equipment as well, and also some old machines are being removed. So overall, it's kind of an expansion and a modernization. So it's a very large increase in new capacity.
Understood, sir. Sir, just a little bit curious on the offset side. Sir, this line that you have already put out, the CapEx for this would have been largely already done in fiscal '23, right?
It has been booked in April only, April-May, because the machine has gone into commercial production only now, so.
Yes. But it would already present as CWIP in our fiscal '23 balance sheet.
It was like a capital work in progress.
Understood. So sir, the INR100 crores number that you're talking about, this is a cash number and I'm interested in the cash number for fiscal '24 really. What will be the tax spend? Is it about INR100-odd crores.
Yes, it's INR100-odd crores because we'll again have some capital work in progress at the end of the year. And plus, we are buying balancing equipment as well in all the plants. We're also adding to the solar capacity, solar power. So you can say that it will be about INR100 crores, yes.
Understood. Understood. Just on the offset side, sir, what prompted you to add another line? Because I was just going through your third quarter call, you had talked about this offset line, which you have just launched it, there was no plan to actually have another offset line as well. And as you sort of mentioned earlier in the call that the market sort of looks a little bit on the softer side, so about 75% caps utilization is not very higher given the fact that you just added a new line, you have sort of plenty of capacity. So any sort of reason for launch -- for having another sort of -- planning another offset capacity so early in the [indiscernible].
Yes. I think the reason why we decide to add a line is essentially to be far more flexible and agile because customers are now just launching many, many brands, the average run length is reducing. And hence, if you are at a very high level of capacity utilization, your lead time to service such customers increases and for which they are not willing to give you that time by having some flat and some additional capacity then you can -- your service level improve quite considerately. So one of the factors is that. And of course, we also say -- also the old machines are getting old. And secondly, the -- obviously, we want to be ready when the growth numbers pick up because then once we order machine at that point, we may get too late in the day because it takes 6, 7, 8 months before you can actually commercialize it.
Understood, sir. That's it for my end. Thank you so much, sir.
The next question is from the line of Nirav Savai from Abakkus AMC.
My question is maybe on the export side. So what's the outlook on the export business for FY '24? And what was the contribution of exports for FY '23?
So export has been one very big silver lining as far as we are concerned over the years. It's about 25% of our revenue. And the outlook for the current year, it's too early to say, but generally, the western world is under a little stress because of demand softening there, U.S. and Europe. However, we have a lot of markets to explore. So we do feel that the growth in exports should continue and the outlook looks positive and also countries are looking at India in a bigger way to outsource from. So that also is helping us. And the currency is also helping us as of now. So overall, I would say that the export potential and what we have realized has been quite a good thing.
So what was the growth in exports if I were to see for FY '23 to '22? Was it -- what have been the company's actual growth?
Yes. So the export growth was higher than the company's growth.
Do we expect this to continue for the next year as well?
Yes. This level of growth was also fueled a little bit by inflation, but I don't think this such high levels of growth is practical to continue.
I'm saying in terms of volume, basically if I look at the volume growth.
We expect the volume growth, I mean, that is our endeavor to keep.
So a double-digit kind of a volume growth and export is something which you see is [indiscernible].
Yes.
And sir, any ballpark number where we see this company in the next 3, 4 years, now we have been steadily expanding every year one line in each of the plants as and when we feel that we just need certain level of utilization. But for the next 3, 4 years or 5 years, any kind of a size of the company which we aspire, which we would like to reach in next 3, 4 years at a group level. What will be the Flexible Packaging as well as the Folding Carton business?
Our past performance indicates a 17%, 18% average growth annualized. I think we'll be quite happy if we can achieve that.
Right, sir, roughly about INR2,000-odd crores of top line, let's say, in next 5 more years.
Not 5 years, much quicker than that.
Much quicker than that, about 4 years. Right, sir. That's it from my side. Thank you very much.
The next question is from the line of Pulkit Singhal from Dalmus Capital Management.
Thank you for the opportunity, and congrats on a good set of numbers and getting an expert on the Board. First question is, all the growth vectors, obviously, I mean, export has been touched upon, but you also had 2 other growth vectors which was market share gains in the domestic carton industry and second is the Flexible Packaging line. So if you can touch upon the growth CapEx from Flexible Packaging? And also, do you expect the market share gains to continue at a similar way? Have you invested in marketing to such an extent that you can continue that pace? Or do you think that'll also slow down with a little bit of demand stuff.
I'm not sure if I understood your -- firstly, thank you, Pulkit, it's nice to hear from you again. And secondly, I'm not clear about what your question really is, but I understood that you're asking whether our marketing team of budget is expanding. So the answer is yes. We are constantly adding new frontline marketing people, and that is greatly helping us to reach out to more customers across India. People are also traveling a lot more these days. So yes, that is a very key component of the domestic marketing effort and the same holds for export as well. I'm not sure about the other part of your question.
Flexible, I was talking about the flexible growth in flexible line. I mean, can that growth vector continue at a similar pace that we've seen before? I mean, is it continuing at a fast pace?
Yes, sorry. Yes, our flexible line is also -- if you recollect, we expanded the capacity in the flexibles last year, it started in March, April of '22. And the performance has been extremely pleasing. We have been able to get also new customers onboard and grown the business. And therefore, we are now putting a third line, which should start in the second half of this year. And so then effectively, we would have traveled the capacity. And we are very confident that we should be able to [indiscernible] that up pretty quickly.
Fair point. Actually, where I was coming from is that the domestic SMC -- the industry has -- had slower growth for the last 2 quarters itself. But you have managed very healthy reported growth driven by these aspects like exports, flexible and market share gains in the domestic line. Now, I'm just wondering whether going ahead, even if the domestic industry were to continue to be lackluster. Can we offset that by these vectors? And now this year, we'll also add the [indiscernible] packaging also contributed. Do you think we can still, on a net basis, do a healthy -- I mean, a good double-digit growth or do you think it will be a bit of a stretch given the industry?
I mean if the domestic demand does not grow or if it stays at a very low growth, then obviously, to maintain a high growth is not possible at all. However, we believe that we can afford to invest in lines and be ready, and we are making a lot of effort to expand our overall footfall both domestic and export. So we don't have any issue with the slight capacity -- lower capacity utilization for a quarter or 2. But we see that India is poised for its economy to grow quite well. And last year, because of inflation, the household budget was very constrained -- but if the inflation is now under check, then volume growth is bound to come back. In any case, it is always 3%, 4%, 5%. It's not that it is in any negative territory. And hence, I think for us to expect a double-digit volume growth is quite possible to continue because we did that even last year. So we don't see any reason why we can't do it this year.
Understood. Fair point. Secondly, just on the capacity versus March end and what you're planning post this CapEx of INR100 crores. How much would the domestic carton capacity go up by? And I'm including what you added in April. So on a volume basis, how much tonnage increase would be there for carton and how much or flexible?
So let's say, one line, typically, we say 9,000 tonnes a year, so 2 lines would be 18,000 tonnes. But I would say that because the volumes per brand are reducing, and hence, the total output goes down to some extent. I would say, instead of 18,000 tonnes, we could push for like 14,000, 15,000 tonnes effective capacity.
Okay. On a base of like?
We have now 100,000 tonnes roughly.
Okay. And for flexible, that will be almost 33% increase at the third line?
That will -- would be about 6,000 tonne increase roughly.
On the base of 12,000 tonnes?
On a base of -- about 10,000 tonnes.
10,000 tonnes, got it. Great. Thank you, and all the best.
Thank you. [Operator Instructions] Next question is from the line of Vivek Agarwal, an individual investor.
Sir, on the FY '23 numbers, if I remove the effect of Creative Offset, then roughly we are growing 30% on a top line basis. So how much would be your volume growth in this roughly? Because when [indiscernible] slow growth, [indiscernible] the top line by 30%. What would be the effect of value growth and how much would be the volume growth?
Firstly, I didn't get your name. Could you please tell me your name?
Vivek Agarwal.
We don't really flesh out these numbers towards very fine detail. But I would say that the volume growth overall out of that 30% would be -- yes, about 10% to 12%, I would say.
These are volume?
Yes.
Okay, sir. And sir, you told that Q4 top line can grow by 10% at the initial CapEx level. So if I analyze that, it is around INR1,650 of top line. Is that what we think we can achieve without the CapEx? And the 15,000 tonnes of carton and 6,000 tonnes of flexible packaging that is going to come on stream in FY '24 is over and above that?
No. We have given guidance of a double-digit growth in the current year.
I'm not talking about current year, I'm talking about going forward.
CapEx is an ongoing part. So our endeavor is to grow in that range yearly.
Understood, sir.
[Operator Instructions] As there are no further -- sir, we have a question in the queue from the line of Vivek Agarwal, an individual investor.
On the debt front, sir, now that we are showing healthy cash accruals, traditionally, the debt would be constant and with a negative balance or going forward roughly 5 years with INR100 crores CapEx.
If you look at our total debt, in terms of ratio, it has improved considerably. I mean, so overall, it's fairly healthy situation, which we hope to continue.
Ideally on the [ negative price debt ] the growth from here [indiscernible] cash accruals are now [indiscernible] INR250 crores.
Yes, but then we'll grow faster if we can do that.
We really hope for that, that's why [indiscernible].
Thank you.
As there are no further questions, I would now like to hand the conference over to the management for closing comments.
So thank you, everyone. I hope I've been able to justify and answer all your questions. Should you need any further clarifications or if you would like to know more about us, please free to contact our Investor Relations team or the CDR India. We hope to have your valuable support on a continued basis as we move ahead. On behalf of all of us here at TCPL, I thank you for taking the time to join us on this call, and I look forward to interacting with you all again soon. Thank you.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of TCPL Packaging Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.