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Tribhovandas Bhimji Zaveri Ltd
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Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. I'm Mike, the moderator for this conference. Welcome to the Q4 and FY '22 earnings conference call of Tribhovandas Bhimji Zaveri Limited, organized by Dickenson World IR. [Operator Instructions]
I would now like to hand over the floor to Ms. Pushpa Mani. Over to you, ma'am.
Thank you, Mike. Good evening, everyone. I welcome you all to the earnings call of TBZ Limited for the fourth quarter and year ended March '22. Today, on this call, the management of TBZ Limited will be represented by Ms. Binaisha Zaveri, Whole-time Director; Mr. Saurav Banerjee, Chief Financial Officer.
Before we would get started, I would like to remind you all that remarks made today might include some forward-looking statements, and actual results may differ materially from those contemplated by forward-looking statements. Any statement made today on this call is based on our assumptions as of date, and we are under no obligation to update the statements as a result of new information or future events.
I would now invite Ms. Binaisha Zaveri to make the opening remarks. Thank you. And over to you, ma'am.
Good evening, everyone. I welcome you all to the earnings call of Tribhovandas Bhimji Zaveri Limited for the fourth quarter and financial year ended March 2022. Thank you for sparing your valuable time in joining us here today. The year gone by, posed several challenges to the business due to COVID-related disruptions and geopolitical disturbances. Despite the challenging operational environment, TBZ registered Y-o-Y revenue growth while curtailing operating expenses. As restrictions peaked vaccination permeated the vast population, there was a gradual normalcy, return to normalcy. As a result, customer sentiments improved, and there was a steady incline in footfalls at the store level, pent up demand for diamond jewelry, wedding purchases and festival buying lead to healthy conversion of the increased footfall.
However, gold price increased by wide lockdowns and the emerging Omicron variant resulted in customers deferring or reducing their outlay towards jewelry purchases in Q4. Our key focus customer communication, brand recall and brand promotion. We also implemented strategic tactical offers connected to specific products, along with strengthening our visibility across all mediums to target customers. These campaigns, along with store level activities resulted in driving footfalls to stores. The company's inventory has gone through a rationalization process and is now strategically being held at a level that will help cater to the rising demand during festivals like Gudi Padwa Akshaya Tritiya in the month of April and May 2022 and ongoing wedding season. Requirement of additional inventory with respect to the expansion plans have also been considered.
The company shall continue to remain focused in ensuring that the balance sheet remains strong and we drive a robust retail sales strategy, to garner higher footfall leading to growth, improvement on margins by increasing the overall share of diamond jewelry revenue and maintaining our discipline on cost control measures.
I would now like to hand over the call to our CFO, Mr. Saurav Banerjee for a quick overview of the financial performance. Thank you.
Good evening, everybody. I shall just read out the key highlights for the fourth quarter and year ended FY 2021, 2022. First, I will read out the quarter 4 numbers. Total income from operations, INR 431.49 crores vis-a-vis INR 366.08 crores, Y-o-Y growth of about 18%. Gross profit, INR 45 crores vis-a-vis INR 47.19 crores. Gross margin, 10.44% vis-a-vis 12.89%. EBITDA at INR 15.44 crores vis-a-vis INR 20.40 crores. PBT at INR 2.84 crores vis-a-vis INR 10.78 crores and PAT at INR 2.43 crores vis-a-vis INR 8.60 crores.
For the full year, the numbers are, total income from operations, INR 1,843.84 crores vis-a-vis INR 1,341.99 crores. Gross profit at INR 197 crores vis-a-vis INR 213 crores. Gross margins at 10.7% vis-a-vis 15.9%. EBITDA at INR 72.35 crores vis-a-vis INR 120.97 crores. PBT at INR 22.88 crores vis-a-vis INR 59 crores and PAT at INR 17.11 crores vis-a-vis INR 43 crores.
We can now go ahead with the Q&A session.
[Operator Instructions] We have the first question from the line of [ Ms. Sonali Rawat from SR Financial Services. ]
Congratulations for the results, first of all. I want to understand how has been the contribution from the Kalpavruksha scheme in the -- this quarter and also for the financial year 2022.
Right. So the Kalpavruksha scheme, which is our EMI-based savings scheme has done pretty well in this entire year, and we have realized the sale of more than INR 130 crores from this scheme for the full year. Quarter sales also is in line with the overall numbers, about INR 30-odd crores being realized in this quarter. In terms of advances that we have received as EMI against Kalpavruksha scheme, it will be more than INR 100 crores of advances, which have come in as -- by way of EMIs, which will mature eventually and will result in further sales in the forthcoming period, which is in this financial year. Usually, Kalpavruksha scheme when it matures and when there's a redemption, which happens, there is an upselling which also happens. For example, if somebody's maturity amount is INR 1 lakh. It has been seen that mostly customers end up buying jewelry worth INR 1.30 lakh, INR 1.40 lakh, INR 1.50 lakh. So anything between 30% to 50% of upselling is also happening through the Kalpavruksha plans.
I have one more question. So we are seeing the jewelry sector is consolidating now, especially after hallmarking being made compulsory. So I just want to ask how is the competitive intensity, especially post hallmarking being made compulsory. And I also wanted to know the competitive intensity from all other brand players in the markets.
Yes. So yes, you are right. There's a lot of consolidation, which is happening. And also the organized sector's share in the entire industry is increasing. So the percentage of organized share is currently a little above 30% at one point of time it was less than 10%. So obviously, the organized sector is growing pretty fast. And unorganized sector is finding difficult to keep pace with the kind of growth because of various regulatory measures that have been implemented by the government. As you rightly mentioned, one of them and a very significant one is hallmarking. Because hallmarking ensures that the customer gets the exactly what they are looking for, what they are paying for in terms of the purity.
TBZ, as a brand has been selling Hallmark jewelry for ages now, nothing new as far as TBZ is concerned in terms of hallmarking. But yes, it is a game changer for lots of unorganized players who were probably not really getting the jewelry hallmarked, their gold hallmarked, which they have to do mandatorily now. So it's a game changer. The competitive market or the competitive environment is extremely strong, extremely stiff, I would say, lots of players in the market, several national brands vying for the market share, regional brands and also strong mom and pop shops, who have 1 or 2 stores in a particular city. But in those cities, they have, I would say, a strong legacy or loyalty of customers following them. So overall, the competitive spirit is very high, which is good for the industry because it brings out the best from every player and also the customer benefits in the long run.
We have the next question from the line of [ Harish Shah from HS Capital ].
Like I have some questions from my side. First of all, like we saw the revenue for the full year and the quarter increasing. But however, we see that there was a decline in large margins. So if we can get the reason for that? That's my number one question. And secondly, how do you see the EBITDA margin and PAT margin [indiscernible] for the FY '23? That's my second question.
Okay. Thanks. Yes, you're right. The revenues have increased substantially, particularly for the full year. The margins have fallen to a certain extent. Both are correct. I'll tell you the reasons briefly. Firstly, coming to the gross profit margins. It is dependent on various factors. One, of course, is the gold price movement. The second is the product mix that the company sells. So for example, TBZ, suppose it's having a gold and diamond product mix of, say, 75%-25%, 75% being gold and 25% being diamond. And suppose it changes to, say, 79%-21% or 80%-20% because of customer preferences of buying, which can sometimes change towards gold, gold being a safer haven. And having seen the kind of economic stress and strain that everybody has gone through, the natural tendency of every buyer is to lean towards gold in difficult circumstances compared to diamond. So when there is a shift in the product mix, it's a significant shift. Even a 1% shift in product mix is a significant shift. Why the reason is that diamond's GP margins are generally 3x that of gold. So for example, if gold margins are on an approximate 10%. Diamond's margins will be 30%. So this kind of shift when it happens, it starts impacting the GP. Although these are temporary, I would say, phenomenon. In the longer run, things even out. But in the quarter 4 and also to a certain extent, in the full year, there has been a little bit of shift towards gold more than what used to happen earlier. That is one reason.
One important reason, I would say. The other is that the company -- and in fact, the entire industry has just come out of a pandemic kind of a situation. I would not like to elaborate. Everybody knows what the entire world has gone through. And the focus of the company was to get back the customer into the fold. So the customers who were hitherto not sure of what's happening, there was a sense of maybe fear because of the kind of infection that was spreading, vaccination and every other step taken by the government helped and finally the customers were eager to come out and take care or cater to their pent-up demands. But the role that the company has played is to communicate effectively through their marketing campaigns through their advertising efforts, bring back the customers. The old customers who have sort of shied away, they have started coming back. People who were not familiar with the brand, first timers, have started. So there is an increase in the first-time, I would say, customers that have come in to the stores. Overall, the walk-ins have started improving. The focus was entirely on getting back the customers, a good conversion ratio and high generation of revenue.
So in this year, the greater focus was on that, and we have been able to achieve that to a great extent. Going forward, obviously, the focus will again be back on the margins. So that's one thing.
Secondly, as far as EBITDA margin is concerned, there is a dip because the operating expense have increased in this year. Or I would rather say that they have come back to the some kind of a normal kind of spend that used to happen earlier. The 2 major operating expenses that have gone up are manpower costs, primarily because there was the restoration of the entire full pay for all the employees, which was restricted during the COVID times, the increments that have been rolled out. And from a marketing and advertising perspective, there has been an increase of approximately INR 19 crores. Because as I said, the focus and the strategy of the company was to invest in marketing opportunities to bring back the customers, to communicate effectively, talk about best price, talk about the designs, the kind of range that we have. And I think we have been pretty successful in doing that.
In terms of long-term EBITDA margins, I believe that we should be able to go back to the 5% to 6% level in a, I would say, a normal kind of scenario, 5% to 6% of EBITDA should be very much positive.
So you target 5% to 6% EBITDA margin by this current FY '23?
Yes. You asked about FY '23?
Yes, yes. Okay. Okay. And so this would be by -- the higher EBITDA margins would be in any strategy for achieving?
Yes, of course. There is a strategy behind everything. So basically, as I said, that we will be focusing on selling better and realizing greater margins from what we sell. So there will be a greater focus on studded jewelry on antique jewelry and also primarily on diamond jewelry, which, as I said, I just explained that it will yield greater margins.
It will be higher margins.
Higher margins. And of course, there will be a tight control on the cost now that we have understood what needs to be done and how it needs to be done, to sort of, when we are coming out of a very unprecedented situation. Going back to the normal situation, things will be relatively easier to monitor and that way, pretty confident that the EBITDA margins will increase in the current financial year.
We have the next question from the line of [ Krithika Jain from SS Investment. ]
My first question is regarding our expansion plans in terms of our store expansion plans for FY '23 and '24? And any idea on how many store additions you are targeting and in which geographies? And what kind of revenue are we targeting from those store additions?
Yes, sure. So in fact, in terms of expansion, we are gearing up for the first store under the expansion plan, which should be coming up by the end of this month or by the first week of June. This will be, of course, in Greater Bombay area, a size of approximately 2,200 square feet, so medium-sized stores, which is coming up, as I said, very soon, shortly. And post that, we shall be looking at further expansions during the financial year. I'm talking about '22-'23 now. So we are targeting about 5 to 6 stores overall in this financial year. We need to see when we will get to open them. It will obviously happen the first one, as I said, is coming up. In terms of geographical regions, we are focusing on 2 kinds of regions. One is that, where we are already present, areas where we are present, and where we think that there is a need for an additional store because the city itself would have grown, the population would have grown. People are reluctant to travel too much nowadays. They want everything at the doorstep. So there are opportunities to open more stores in existing cities. Also looking at 1 or 2 areas where we will be like entering the first time, first timers in that city because we think that the kind of gentry that is present, the population and the target audience or the target customers will be -- we will be able to find a good, sort of, I would say, aspirational purchase coming out from those cities. So these are the 2 kinds of geographical areas that we are looking at.
Sir, and what kind of revenue are we targeting from these --
Let's say, a store, which will be about 2,000 or 2,200-odd square feet, having an inventory of, say, around INR 25 crores to INR 30 crores, anything between INR 25 crores to INR 30 crores, we should be able to get in the first year, we should be able to get about anything between INR 40 crores to INR 50 crores of revenue. Obviously, going forward, the revenue will start increasing because the inventory turns will improve. So this is a modest number that I'm talking about, maybe a conservative number, but it should be a little bit higher than that.
And if you could give us any guidance on the CapEx for the next 2 years, inclusive of our planned or store expansion?
Yes. So CapEx is not really much. It's a small amount simply because the stores that we open, let's say, the store that I've been talking about, will probably have a CapEx of at max INR 1 crores. So let's say, if it's a slightly larger store, 3,000-odd square feet, it may go up to INR 1.5 crores or maximum of INR 2 crores. So if I'm opening 5 stores, it will be at max INR 10 crores for 1 financial year in all probability less than that, but let us say, INR 10 crores.
We have the next question from the line of [ Nia Sharma ] from Pearl Global Investments.
So could you please throw some light on the kind of sales you are generating from the online channel?
Yes. Fine. So we have present online, yes, but that's a very small percentage of our total revenues that we generate. It's a small number as of now. Obviously, we are trying to ensure that, that number steadily increases, efforts are being made to invest in those opportunities. But as of now, it's a very small number, not worth really mentioning. -- perhaps by the end of this financial year or going into '23, '24, we should be able to talk a little more, I would say, in details about online revenues being generated.
And also, if it is possible, could you give the numbers for the quarter and full year?
Online?
Yes.
It's a very -- really small number, ma'am. So not really anything much significant, very small number.
Also, if you could let us know the margin.
Also it's all jewelry. I mean whatever is sold on a -- in a brick-and-mortar store is what is available, not the entire range, obviously. So the margins are virtually the same.
So, also, what are your plans for further expansion on online sales going ahead?
Yes. As I said that we are looking into and we are investing in that opportunity. The company will shortly be getting ready to come up with its own platform. Earlier, we have been present on marketplace platforms like Flipkart and Amazon and Snapdeal. But now we have moved away from that, and we are looking to have our own online platforms.
And what kind of competition are you seeing for the online channel?
Competition, well online as a jewelry, opportunity online sale is still in the fledgling stages of it, I would say, of its career, if I may say so. So in fact, you would have seen that some of the online players who started 100% online are now coming back and opening physical stores. So there are a few brands, which are relatively well known in the online space, and they are coming out and establishing brick-and-mortar stores. So I think online as a platform for jewelry sale needs to mature a little more in this country.
And last one thing I noticed, sir. From last 8 quarters, we have seen a diamond sales share has never crossed 30% margin. When are -- if you compare it throughout the years, it is not increasing that much. Could you throw some light on that?
Yes. So diamond sales margin at 30% average is a fairly healthy margin, I would say. See, it depends on what kind of the range of products that is being sold or is being offered to the customer. We believe that every customer will have a different kind of a budget, different kind of a preference for diamond purchases. And we would like to cater to that. Earlier, we have run campaigns on affordable diamonds, which probably you would have noticed or you would have heard about. So the word speaks for itself, affordable. So what we have tried to do is that we have tried to increase our customer base. We have tried to make diamond jewelry more and more popular and more and more, I would say, suited to the pockets of individuals. So that is something that we have tried to do. We believe that this strategy will ultimately pay greater results. The diamond market will mature and the jewelry market for diamonds will mature further and further. And there will be a tendency of customers to check out the diamond jewelry. Nowadays, as you know, that's still gold is firm fabric. But once that change happens, even to a certain extent, it will help the company to generate greater revenues and greater margins.
We have the next question from the line of [ Komal Arora from Global Investment ].
I've got 2 also. Could you please elaborate on your plans for brand building and promotion going ahead as we see in this quarter, you have invested in the same on what kind of percentage of revenue you have [indiscernible] in the current the fiscal FY '23?
Right. So brand building and advertising activities and efforts is an ongoing process. They go hand-in-hand. Sometimes, we are focusing on tactical campaigns or product specific or region-specific campaigns. And sometimes, we are doing activities to increase the brand visibility so that we reach out to new customers in the sense that we have new customers walk-ins. For example, this year, we have seen an increase of new customer walk-ins by more than 10%. We are also, at the same time, looking at customers who were earlier with TBZ, but probably have fallen away or maybe have gone into a dormant kind of state. So they are called win back customers. And thereto, we have seen an increase of more than a double-digit increase in terms of people coming back. So I think as I was trying to say that brand building and advertising activities go hand-in-hand. They complement each other. We have a celebrity who endorses our brand, who represents our brands, Sara Ali Khan. So I think she is also very popular with the younger generation, and she has made a mark for herself in representing the company's products and the various other offerings. So I think this is an activity which is worth investing in. We have actually, as I told earlier to someone who had asked a question, we have spent strategically increased our spend on brand building and advertising campaigns. So basically, it's a communication which goes out to customers at various stages of their relationship with the company. Either they are trying to figure out whether they should relate to TBZ, come as the first-time customer, or they will continue to be the customers or come back. So all kinds of customers are coming -- are targeted through various kinds of communications.
So can we call it one of the strategies to increase your market share in the coming years?
Yes, of course, yes. Yes.
So from this one of the strategies, what are the other strategies you have in mind?
So other means other than brand-building strategies?
Other than brand building strategies. Yes.
As I was explaining a sort short while back that we are getting into an expansion mode gradually. So expansion itself is getting into new areas, where we are not present. And obviously, we will target the customer base of those areas. It will expand our reach. It will help us penetrate deeper into markets where it -- so far, we may not have been present. That is one way of doing it, which we are going to do. The third is to increase the catchment area itself. So while we are located in a particular city, there is a surrounding area of, say, 100 to 150-odd kilometers, which we look into, and we strategize and we plan for holding exhibitions in those cities so that those people living there get a flavor of TBZ as a brand, and we try to attract the aspirational mode of somebody who wants to associate with the brand instead of trying to always remain with the mom and pop shop. So these are the other activities or the efforts that are going into increasing market share.
And when TBZ plans to achieve double digit [indiscernible] basically I'm talking about because of capital employed.
Yes. Yes, yes, of course. I mean the entire effort is targeted towards that. It's difficult to say when exactly it's going to happen. But obviously, we would want it to happen in this financial year itself.
We have the next question from the line of [ KMS Prasad ], who is an investor.
A profitable quarter. Sir I have a couple of questions. During the IPO, it was about 14 showrooms you have and the promise of 43 additional showrooms within 2 years, till date, not even 50% of the additional showrooms were opened. And if the business is not so great, as you know, there are so many chains have come up. And where the problem is lying? Why this promise was not fulfilled till date?
Okay, sir, let me explain. Currently, we have 31 showrooms. We earlier, not so long back, we had more than 40 showrooms. So if you are talking about 14 showrooms, then we did expand to more than 40 showrooms. And the reasons for climb-back which has happened in the last 1, 1.5 years is only because of the COVID and the lockdown impacts that the company has gone through. Let me explain further. Several of our smaller showrooms were in the malls. And those mall showrooms were opened with a strategy in mind. However, when the COVID-19 spread across the country and the government imposed lockdowns, as you know, nationwide lockdowns, and that lockdown was there in place for a fairly long period of time. Naturally, one of the, I would say, public places that was initially and completely locked down right from day 1 were the malls because there was the fear of mass spread of COVID, if people were thronging into malls. Hence, the malls became inoperative, and there was no way any business could have been generated from those malls.
So it made a lot of eminent sense to close down those showrooms because they were not going to help in any way and would just be, I would say, a wasteful spend. So I think the company took a very, very correct decision of closing those showrooms and waiting for an opportunity to probably go back and open them when the things are better placed. So a showroom getting closed is also a good strategy to have. If it's not going to yield any results. Or if it's not going to generate revenues or profits or margins, it makes sense not to keep on investing or spending on those stores. But it does not mean that it is gone forever. These are temporary measures that the company takes based on situation. And we can assure you that going forward, given the good opportunities when the economy is already opening up, although there are still some challenges which we are facing because of geopolitical reasons. But obviously, everybody is very hopeful that good times will come back. And then you will surely see that we shall be expanding a little more rapidly. So that's what I wanted to explain to you.
I have one more question.
yes.
From the IPO that was in 2012 that is about 10 years now, gold price went up by about 3x. And obviously, the top line grows very well, but the IPO price is INR 120. And today, there is an erosion of almost like 50% in term of rupees. INR 64 today's market price and versus INR 120 of IPO price. And also, if you consider the inflation, the shareholder value has become 0. Is it that -- where is the problem is lying. Is it the performance? I mean, in the company performance. The problem is with the business model or something else?
Right.
Then the shareholder wealth is not improved. How an investor will show interest towards TBZ.
Right. I understand your question. So sir, this is something that the company is constantly working on. As you are aware, retail jewelry or gems and jewelry sector as a sector has been plagued or has had headwinds because of various reasons ranging from regulatory changes, some kind of a political kind of changes, which have happened because of certain other reasons. But unfortunately, they have impacted the industry and the company to a certain extent. And finally, of course, the last 2 years, I mean, I need not say because of the COVID and lockdown there was an impact. But what I can assure you is that we have taken note of this, whatever you have mentioned just now, and we are working towards it, and we should be able to come up to your expectations sooner than later. There is no problem with the business model. This is the same business model that was there earlier. And it is also a very similar business model to some of the other players in the market.
There obviously are some changes will happen from company to company. But on an overall basis, this is the business model, which is being followed by several other companies. Some of them are doing reasonably well. Some of them are doing okay and some of them are not really performing well. So we have seen other companies who have fallen by the way, and we have seen companies who have been able to come out of the challenges that they have constantly faced. I think TBZ has been able to come out of those challenges. And yes, I mean, there's always scope for improvement, and we shall do that, and we shall be able to answer or rather live up to your expectations.
We have the next question from the line of [ Sonali Rawat from SR Financial Services ].
Sir, my question was as compared to rest of India gold consumption in the south part is quite high, and we are not very much penetrated over there. So I want to understand if we have any plans to open shop or [indiscernible] in that part of India.
Yes. That is true. The gold consumption is in South is the highest in India, in the southern region. So it's not that we are not present at all. We, in fact, have a few stores there. I'll just inform you. We have 2 stores in Hyderabad, in Panjagutta and Basheerbagh. We have 1 store in Vijayawada, we have one store in Cochin. We had a store in Bangalore. But as I said, because of this COVID-related matter, we thought it better to close down that store. Anyway, it was not a very big store. Panjagutta, Basheerbagh all these stores are doing very well. Panjagutta is of the top 5 stores for TBZ.
So our presence is very much there in the south, but yes, not to the extent of some of the other southern players. If we were to compare with Kalyan or Joyalukkas or Malabar or Thangamayil. They are south centric players and their inherent strength lies in the way they have begun from that region. So compared to that, yes, we are not that much present. In future, we shall always look at. We are, in any case, always looking at opportunities to open stores. If we think that there is a city in the south or anywhere else, it doesn't matter where it may be as long as it can cater to the customer's tastes and preferences and generate revenues and margins for us, we will be very keen to open a store in that region.
How do you think the Omicron situation has been acting. So you do feel that in past COVID and all that scenario, how is the market, the market back to normal and how people are there to buy [indiscernible] jewelry or yet to very much normal.
I could not hear you very well, but I think I have understood what you want to know. Post COVID, yes, the economy is on the rebound. It's gradually settling down this year, in fact, '21-'22 has been that kind of a year barring the first quarter. The first quarter was badly affected because of the second wave and was virtually washed out. But from quarter 2 onwards, we are finding that there is some kind of normalcy coming back quarter 2, quarter 3, quarter 4. Going forward into this first quarter of this financial year also, we see the same kind of trend. So yes, I think that people are coming back, the customer sentiments have improved.
Again, of course, we were faced with the challenge because of the Ukraine-Russia war and prices shooting up, inflationary pressures all over the place. So these challenges are still there existing as of now, continuing as of now. But hopefully, there will be good measures and things will be improving. So in that sense, there is a pent-up demand, which we are catering to. We can see, as I told you, that the walk-ins have improved, the revenue generation has improved and the festivities that have just gone by Akshaya Tritiya and earlier Gudi Padwa, we could see a lot of good traction happening. So I think going forward, this financial year should be economically better for the company.
One more question I want to ask. So do you think -- first question, do you think that the financial year '23 could be normal in terms of sales [indiscernible] there is a revenge on travel and buying kind of scene is going?
Yes.
It's in the jewelry sector as well?
Yes. So I will not call it revenge, but there's a pent-up demand, I would say. There are lots of occasions which have unfortunately gone by in people's individual lives, weddings and many other such family occasions, which could not be held because of government restrictions and rightly so. But now that things are relatively better. I think normalcy will be seen in next year. And the demands are already being met. We can see that the traction, the customer enthusiasm or the interest in buying jewelry is coming back quite sharply, quite quickly. And we hope that it stays that way throughout the year.
And what kind of normalized inventory turnover you are targeting for the company in financial year '23?
So in terms of gold and diamond, I will probably talk about blended inventory turn. So in that sense, an inventory turn of close to 2 or 2 blended gold and diamond combined should be a fairly good turn to have in this financial year.
And by like by any chance you can ask like when we are planning to go double-digit growth in terms of margins?
Yes. As I was explaining earlier, in terms of gross profit margins, we are already above the double digit. Admittedly, as of now, the margins were a little lower in this quarter. But on an average, the margins have always been in the range of 13.5% to 14%, 14.5%. Even we have seen margins of 15%. In terms of EBITDA margins, I just explained that we are looking at around 5% to 6% range currently. We should be able to make it higher as we go along. But for this financial year, I think 5% to 6% is what we are looking at.
And I have a bookkeeping question as well. So can you give me a sales in grammage for quarter and full year financial 2022?
Ma'am, I'm not able to hear your -- what exactly is your question?
So my question, this is bookkeeping related question. Could you give me a sale in grammage for third quarter and the full year for financial year 2022 and also like year before that?
The sales in grammage will be difficult. Just now I don't have the data. But what I can tell you that there is a volume growth. So if you are looking at a volume growth, yes, we have registered a reasonably healthy volume growth of about 18% or so.
In financial year 2022. And in the year before that?
Year before that, also, there has been some volume growth, about 10% to 12% of volume growth has been there. Not year before that. Year before that was a COVID year. So obviously, things were very exceptional, but I am referring to financial years like '18, '19 and to a certain extent '19, '20. '20, '21 was a very exceptional year. So there was no question of volume growth happening in that year.
And can we give me an idea for the coming year for example financial year '23 any idea for the grammage growth in '23?
Yes. So we are looking at a double-digit growth certainly for the year '22, '23. I will not be able to exactly spell out, exactly how much will be the growth, but what we are targeting is a double-digit growth.
Double digit growth?
Yes.
[Operator Instructions] The next question from the line of Komal Aurora from Global Investment.
Sir I have a question about the debt levels, as you saw in Q4 and last year's financial [indiscernible] gone up on the back of increasing inventory levels. So if you can just give some guidance on what kind of normalized debt levels the company is targeting [indiscernible]?
Yes, yes. So yes, the debt levels have gone up primarily because we have strategically increased the inventory levels to the requirements of the stores, also to cater to the festivities, the big festivities, for example, Akshaya Tritiya. And thirdly, as I said, the expansion plans that are just around the corner. However, what you are looking at is a debt level on a reporting date. So as on 31st March, the debt level was, say, INR 500-odd crores. But if I look at the average debt level then for the year, which is '21-'22, the average debt level was a little more than INR 400 crores. So that way, there is no significant increase.
I have another question because I couldn't find this gross margin break up for other than gems and jewelry and also if you can talk about the EBITDA margins for both these segments separately?
Ma'am, gems and jewelry, we are in the retail jewelry space, and it is treated as one segment. As per the accounting rules, it is not a segment-wide bifurcation, it is treated as just one segment, which is jewelry. So in terms of gross margin, just to give you a flavor, gold gross margins can range anything between 10% to 12%, approximately. Within that plain gold jewelry has a slightly lower margin and studded gold jewelry will have a higher margin. Diamond jewelry, as I've already mentioned, is -- will be in the range of anything between 30% to 35%.
Due to this geopolitical [indiscernible] and COVID do you feel that people are trusting jewelry as a better investment now?
To a certain extent, yes. Not fully, I would say, but yes, to a certain extent, the safe haven concept always comes into people's minds, particularly in case of gold. So whenever there is a crisis, any kind of crisis, which is like a global kind of a crisis, then people tend to buy gold and treat it as an investment to safeguard for future eventualities.
I now hand the conference over to Pushpa Mani for closing comments.
Thank you, everyone, for joining us today for this call. In case you have any further queries, you can get back to us on our coordinates provided in the investor presentation. Thank you so much.
Thank you. On behalf of Tribhovandas Bhimji Zaveri Limited that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.