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Star Cement Ltd
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Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to Star Cement Limited Q4 and FY '23 Earnings Conference Call hosted by PhillipCapital India Private Limited. [Operator Instructions]. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Vaibhav Agarwal from PhillipCapital. Thank you, and over to you, Mr Agarwal.
Thank you, [ Nirav ]. Good afternoon, everyone. On behalf of PhillipCapital India Private Limited, we welcome you to the Q4 and FY '23 call of Star Cement Limited. On the call, we have with us Mr. Tushar Bhajanka, Executive Director; and Mr. Manoj Agarwal, CFO of the company. I will now hand the floor to the management of Star Cement for their opening remarks, which will follow to interactive Q&A. Thank you, and over to you, Tushar.
So good afternoon, all. My name is Tushar Bhajanka, and I'm the Executive Director of Star Cement. I would like to welcome you all to the earnings call of quarter 4. I have Mr. Manoj Agarwal, who is the CFO of the company. He will give out the numbers of quarter 4 and the year and then we can have our Q&A session. Thank you.
Yes. Thank you. Hi, friends. Very good afternoon. I, on behalf of Star Cement, welcome you all to our con call for discussing our numbers for Q4 FY '23 and full year number of FY '23. I would like to clarify that we are discussing on the historical numbers, and there is no indication to [invest]. Having said that now, I will take -- I will just take you through the Q4 number followed by the full year numbers.
Starting from clinker production, during the quarter ended March 2023, we have produced 7.78 lakh tonnes of clinker as against INR 6.71 lakh tonnes in same quarter last year. So far as cement production is concerned, we have produced 12.53 lakh tonnes this quarter as against INR 11.59 lakhs tonnes in same quarter last year, a growth of more than 15% in clinker and more than 8% in cement.
Now I will take you through the sales volume. During the quarter, we have sold 12.35 lakh tonnes of cement and no clinker, as against 11.5 lakh tonnes of cement and negligible quantity of clinker in same quarter last year. This is as far as cement and clinker sale is concerned, the growth [indiscernible] of more than 7% in volume. As far as the geographical distribution of cement is concerned, in North East, we have sold around 9.12 lakh tonnes as against 8.08 lakh tonnes during same quarter last year. And as far as [ outside ] North East is concerned, we have sold 3.23 lakh tonnes of cement this quarter as against 3.45 lakh tonnes same quarter last year.
In terms of blend [ mix ], it is almost 8% of OPC and rest is PPC. These are the finite numbers of the quarter. Now I will take you through the financials. The total revenue figure this quarter is around INR 820 crores as against INR 748 crores same period last year.
As far as EBITDA figure is concerned, this quarter, we have done an EBITDA of around INR 179 crores as against INR 123 crores last year. Profit after tax is INR 96 crores as against INR 88 crores in the same period last year. This year account of increased tax expenses due to [indiscernible] of tax exemption [period] in respect of company Guwahati [grinding] unit and its subsidiary Star Cement Meghalaya Limited. However, cash also will be MAT only.
On per tonne EBITDA front, it is INR 1,448 during this quarter as against INR 1,063 same quarter last year. This is what our quarterly number of fourth quarter. The total recurring revenue figures for the FY '23 is INR [2,696] crores as against INR [2,219] crores last year. As far as EBITDA figure is concerned, during FY '23, we have done an EBITDA of around INR 520 crores as against INR 379 crores last year.
Profit after tax is INR 248 crores as against INR 247 crores in last year. That is same level despite of increasing EBITDA of INR 41 crores due to the increased income tax, as increased income tax I explained before. On per tonne EBITDA front, it is INR 1,297 during FY '23 and against 1,112 per tonne last year. These are the quarterly and yearly numbers. Now I request all of you that is you have any query, you can ask the same, and I will request [indiscernible] how to moderate the query very well required. Thank you.
[Operator Instructions]. The first question is from the line of Amit Murarka from Axis Capital.
So just firstly, on your expansion plan, can you just detail a bit out where we are on that Meghalaya clinker expansion and the grinding [minutes] that was tasked to them?
Yes. So the Meghalaya clinker plan, the 3 million tonne plan is due to be commissioned in Jan next year, as it came in the call earlier. And the grinding unit in Guwahati should be commissioned in November this year. And the grinding unit in Silchar should be August to September next year.
Okay. And is there other CapEx, I think, around INR 2,100-odd crores. So that number stays unchanged?
Yes. So until now, the CapEx to these projects have been about INR 430 crores. And we expect in this financial year outlay of about INR 1,300 crores towards this expansion.
Okay. Okay. And also just on the quarter. So like I didn't get the volume number actually, I joined the call a bit late.
It is 12.35 lakh tonnes this quarter.
So Y-o-Y, it's a growth of about 7% in quarter 4.
Right. Right. Also just on power and fuel, generally, we are seeing a reduction in the line item across the board. Where were you in Q4 on the rupees [ KKL ] basis? And like how much reduction can we expect from that front?
Yes. So in quarter 3, our average cost was about 2.1 and even in quarter 4, the average cost remains about 2.1. And the reason is because we had a stock from, we had a healthy coal stock, which is -- which we used in Q4.
But going ahead, we do see a deduction in the coal prices as the spot option is now price as a spot option is now coming down. So yes, I think similar to other players in the industry we'll also be seeing a decline in the per GCV cost of coal.
Okay. And could you just guide a bit more on that? Like will there be a 10% reduction or is it going to be...
Yes. So I think what we are aiming for quarter 1 is about INR 1.8 to INR 1.85 per GCV.
Okay. We should go down a bit more in Q2, right?
Yes. Yes, it should progressively fall, I mean, in Q2, but this was basically for Q1.
Okay. would you also be able to detail out the fuel mix as well for the quarter?
Yes. So about 25% of the coal came from Nagaland, about 45% to 47% first quarter option through Coal India. And about 15% was biomass and about 15% were the [indiscernible].
[Operator Instructions]. The next question is from [indiscernible] Shah from Dolat Capital.
Sir, for this [indiscernible] in terms of trade share was how much and the premium set?
Sorry, can you just repeat the question once again?
What was the trade share in premium set for Q4 FY '23?
Yes. So we sold about 87% of our overall volume was sold in trade, and the premium share was about 4%.
Okay. And just to clarify, PPC was you said, 88%.
So PPC share was about 91%.
91%. Just trying to understand, our trade share has actually slightly declined, so from 92% to 87%. And also at the same time, last time we said that we are looking at to increased premium set 7%, 8%. So where are we on that?
I think on the trade, non-trade ratio, the reason why the non-trade sales have increased is because the margin in non-trade has really improved because there is generally a shortage of clinker in North East and so the prices for non-trade has [indiscernible] significantly. The reason why we have, again, focused on non-trade in quarter 4, and in terms of premium cement, we are working on the cement category, and we do plan to launch a new [indiscernible] brand under the premium cement. So that we can actually have a demand pull as well for the product.
So that product we plan to launch in quarter 1 -- end of quarter 1. And so with the new launch of the new products, I think there should be a good push towards the premium cement category.
So we are looking at 7%, 8% or more than 10% kind of premium share?
No. So I mean it just depends on how well the product is taken by the market. But we do plan to -- in the next two quarters, we do tend to ramp up our [indiscernible] cement sales to close to a double-digit number.
Okay. And sir, what was the lead distance for this quarter?
So it was about 224 kilometers versus to 211 kilometers in quarter 3.
Okay. So it has increased to that extent. Sir, sir, broadly in terms of the volume, so definitely, what we promised for this year we have achieved in terms of [ 13% ] growth, 4 million tonnes that we have achieved. So now how are we looking at on the volume growth for this year? And also in terms of the profitability, we were having a stand of INR 1,200 to INR 1,250 EBITDA per tonne. So what's our new stand?
So I think in terms of volume growth, we are looking at a healthy volume growth this year as well. So the target is, of course, to grow by more than 12%, 13%. And in terms of profitability, we do maintain the profitability at about INR [ 13 ] -- INR 1,300 per tonnes.
Okay. And in terms of our WHRS, has it started? 12.3 megawatt WHRS was supposed to start in February.
Yes. So the WHRS has started, but the benefit because we do not accrue the entire benefit of WHRS in quarter 4. So it broadly started in quarter 1 this year. And now it is running since May, it has been running in full capacity. And we do expect that in quarter 1, we should see benefits of WHRS [indiscernible].
So on a full year kind of -- we were looking at INR 45 crore, INR 48 crore kind of a savings that is possible.
Yes. I think we have missed April as a month because we were still ramping up our WHRS. There were some heeding problems there. But from mid-May onwards, I do think that we are going to accrue the entire benefit. So yes, I think probably not INR 45 crores, but the INR 40 crores is the amount that we're looking at in WHRS.
Okay. And lastly, on the pricing, sir, have we post the March, so have you seen any decline in the pricing? So whatever the broadly for this 1.5, 2 months of the average prices EBIT 1%, 2% lower of [or flattish]?
Yes. So I think in Guwahati, sorry, in Northeast, we have seen a price hike of about INR 10 rather than a decrease. However, in outside North East, which will be investing on Bihar, we are experiencing a price drop of about INR 10.
So the North East markets have increased the price by 10. And right now, the outside market down by outside North East markets are down by about INR 10 for that.
And liquidity plan utilization for this quarter should be around 60%, 65%?
It was about 33% this quarter.
[Operator Instructions]. The next question is from the line of [ Amal More ] from [ Cigniti ] Technologies. [ Amal More ], may I request to unmute your line from your side and go ahead with the question, please. [ Amal More ], can you hear us?
Due to no response, we move on to our next participant.
[Operator Instructions]. Next question is from the line of [ Ottong Kawashiman ] from Axis Securities.
My question is with regards to [ delivery ] unit utilization. This year, we have operated around 55% utilization level. So how do you see these financial levels going ahead in FY '22?
So of course, one of our aims is to utilize a [ delivery ] plant. But given that we are constrained for clinker in this year, our focus is going to be North East. And we are seeing a very good growth in North East. So given that and keeping that in mind, I think the focus for the organization is to first make sure that we tap on to the growth that we are experiencing in North East and then to only focus on outside North East market.
So I think, you're looking at like a 10% to 12% growth in outside North East markets as well, but we are not very impressive in those markets.
Okay. So you mean the new thing that comes [indiscernible] thereafter, this [indiscernible] will increase?
Sorry, can you please repeat that?
So once your [indiscernible] comes in Meghalaya. So thereafter, you want to see in the delivery production [indiscernible].
Yes, of course. So I mean [indiscernible] clinker plant set in, then we will also focus on the outside [ North East ] markets to basically fill in the volume gap. But again, even after the clinker plant sets in, our focus of quarter [indiscernible] North East because it's much more profitable for us. And for selling extra volume, we will definitely look at outside of North East.
Okay. And what has been about cash and cash equivalent in FY '23?
Sorry, can you repeat that?
Cash and cash equivalents in FY '23, cash and cash -- bank balance in FY '23?
Yes. So right now, it is about INR 530 crores.
Okay. So since we are doing expansion of INR 22 [million] crores, so do you also [use to take so] date for this expansion? And if it is okay then how much date are you going to take for this expansion?
So I think the overall debt would not exceed more than INR 500 crores. And that also will be repaid in the first year of commencement of the expanded capacity.
Okay. Okay. Okay. And last one, our other expenses have increased in this quarter. So any particular reason for that?
Yes, there are certain regroupings that are happening from manpower to other expenses and also the packing cost because the volume have increased. So packing cost and [indiscernible] about to incur. And also, there are certain CSR expenses that are there. So if you meet the retail, I will, you can ask me, I can reply to that mail, okay? Separately.
[Operator Instructions]. The next question is from the line of Rajesh Ravi from HDFC Securities.
Congrats on good set of numbers. First of all, this [clinker] costing 2.1 in Q4. Could you share the number for the average of FY '23?
Yes. So the average cost for the year is about INR 2 per GCV.
INR 250.15?
INR 2.
INR 2. Okay. And this in Q1 now has come down to around [ 1.8 ]?
No. So in Q1, it should be about 1.9 and 1.85 to 1.9. And in Q2, I think the main benefit of the decrease in coal costs were [indiscernible].
Okay, understood. Understood. And second, on the electricity cost, what would your average conversion cost in FY '23.?
So the electricity cost would be about INR 6.5 per unit in the main clinker plant and about INR 7 in the grinding unit.
Okay. And do you see any softening in this also with fuel prices coming down?
So I think not right now because in the clinker plant, we produce our own power to a captive power plant. For the coal, because the GCV cost is for us not coming down, at least, I do not expect the cost of power to reduce in the clinker plant. But I think there is a softening in the [ IE ] rate which is the source of the power in our grinding unit. So I think, there we should be seeing some benefit of the reduction in [ IE rates ].
Okay. And in terms of raw materials, primarily [ fliers ], what has been the cost trend in FY '23? Has it been stable or they have gone up when fuel prices were going up?
So the cost of [ fliers ] has broadly been stable, nothing too alarming, but I just need to -- so I think it has gone up by about INR 50.
INR 50 per tonne.
Yes, Okay. Okay.
And could you also discuss on the incentives accrued -- incentives accrued in P&L in FY '23 in [indiscernible] ? And what is the outlook for next year FY '24?
Yes. So basically, we had about INR 125 crores of incentives in FY '23. Out of which, a major -- majority of this benefit was still Jan '23. So in the month of Feb and March, we have actually not gotten a majority of the benefit because it finished off in Jan FY '23. So in quarter 4, we only got a benefit of INR 19 crores.
Okay. And outlook for FY '24 on the existing operations?
So I do not think that there will be any subsidy kicking in FY '24. But what we are getting SGST benefit in the new grinding unit that we're getting in the plan, and that has already been discussed and signed with the government. So once our new lending unit commission and once we pay the -- once we get the credit for the GST and the expansion and then the benefit of [ FTSE ] will start kicking in, but that will be in the next financial year.
Right, right. And only on the grinding unit or even for the clinker expansion you will be getting incentives?
So in the clinker expansion, because we are expanding in the same company, SCL. There is a benefit in the current line of SCL, which will be also passed on to the expanded capacity. So we do expect some benefit that will not be as significant as the benefit in the grinding unit.
Okay. Also to quantify the incentives, annual incentive accrual, which you foresee once the input credit is adjusted?
Yes. So I think we basically will get a net GST of -- in the volume that we sell in [indiscernible] and right now, we are selling about 17 lakh in a [ tonne ]. And at that point, we'll be probably selling about 20 lakh in a [ tonne ]. So I think it's just a function of multiplying that volume with the amount to SGST per tonne. So it would be a significant benefit.
[Operator Instructions]. The next question is from the of [ Amal More ] from [ Signet ] Technologies. Due to no response, we move on to the next participant.
[Operator Instructions].Next question is from the line of [ Shravan ] Shah from [ Dolat ] Capital Markets.
Sir, in terms of the demand, I just wanted to understand for FY '23 if broadly if I have to look at. So excluding the North East, how it has grown in [ BR with] [indiscernible] and how do you see that for FY '24?
So in outside North East [indiscernible]. So it was a good growth for us and outside North East. Mainly because the base is small for us. But we do not expect the same growth rate in outside North East going forward. We expect a growth rate of about 10% to 12%.
But for FY '23, definitely our base was lower, and so we were able to grew 34% outside North East. But in general, for the industry, if one has to look, is it the case that except the Bihar all about state kind of such [indiscernible] seeing a very, very marginal kind of a growth.
Yes, that's two. So the growth rate has been about 2% to 5%.
And how about Bihar?
With Bihar, we would be also very [indiscernible]. To 3% to 5%, something in that range.
So any specific thing that -- and how the things were in Q4? So just trying to understand why normally the perception is that the East states are growing much faster. So what has happened? And will it now has came back to the normal levels, double-digit plus kind of a growth now? So Q4 was the number the similar kind of a 4% 5% growth in East? And how do we see now?
So in East our number was very [concerned]. It was like 4%, 5%. I'm talking about [indiscernible]. I'm not talking about the market in East. For us in Q4, the north and north east, we grew by about 5% in outside Northeast. [ Vinall ] have to come back to you with the results of the market, how it will improve.
[Operator Instructions]. Next question is from the line of Kamlesh from Lotus Asset Management.
Just one question on the part of like the aspiration side. Like what's your game plan for like the next 5-odd years apart from Northeast and East areas, this reason. And what people do you have brought in to achieve the particular top process or the reason?
So I think that's a good question to ask. So I think, of course, the next 5-year plan is definitely because once we set up the capacity in North East of about 3 million and the grinding unit, I think for the next 4, 5 years, we do not see any scope of putting more capacity, right? So I think the [capacity] have to grow, and I think we'll have a very healthy cash flow to grow. We'll have to grow outside North East, and we are looking -- actively looking at mine.
We are also looking at smaller plants that we can acquire and then we can probably grow inorganically and organically. So I definitely feel that the growth going ahead for the company will have to come from outside -- from coming out from outside like coming out of North East.
And I think in the last one year, we have also built up the capabilities in the organization to embark on the journey. So we have gotten -- so if I start from the start of the year, so I think we have gotten a new manufacturing officer, who are looking after all the plants, who also brings in capability of mine to the company.
We have changed our HR head as well a year back. We're bringing in a lot more people in the management level. And of course, a week back, we have our new CEO, Mr. Vinit Tiwari, join us. And of course, with his expertise in other markets in North and East. We do hope to look at opportunities which are viable for us and to grow in those markets.
And Tushar, secondly, like our -- one of the largest competitor is also bringing a large capacity in North East. Don't you think that there could be some competitive pressure just like it is [indiscernible] in terms of the clinker capacity. But do you see some pressure on that front or the volumes or the strong demand would take care of that?
So I think it's a function of -- of course, they are -- even [ Danias ] getting a capacity of about the same, about 3 million tonnes. But then the other players, the smaller players in North East are not really expanding at the moment. So I think that will be a source of relaxation because I think then -- there are only two [indiscernible] effectively competing and rest of them are not really part of the game.
So I think that would be a benefit, which probably will mean that our growth rates, the company's growth rate will be higher than the market growth rate.
And secondly, there is some comment coming from outside, basically being dumped in North East. And I think once we have a clinker capacity and we become aggressive and we attack the right spaces, then I think it'll be -- then probably we'll be able to [curb] some of the cement coming in Northeast. And I think that will again become a growth center for the company. So I think going ahead, of course, in the first year or first [ 2.5 ] years, there may be a competitive pressure, but in the long run, I do think that both companies and Star Cement would be able to get a healthy growth and be able to utilize the capacity as per...
And lastly, like I think are coming to new areas other than North East. So what would be the timeline over there?
So we are actively looking at assets, and I think we should have something to at least share by quarter 2. So that is basically the timeline that we're looking at. And it [really] depends on what you spend. So it will be hard to, of course, get to a definite timeline, but the [indiscernible] is really looking into it, and we should be able to at least draw out a plan by quarter 2.
Next question is from the line of Rajesh Ravi from HDFC Security.
Could you discuss on the demand trends outside of North East, particularly in states like [ West Bengal, Bihar, Dhaka ], which are your focused markets for FY '24, what sort of outlook you're looking at?
So we are broadly looking at a 7% to 8% in the markets.
Okay. That is your growth or market you're looking at the market growing in this...
The expectation of how far the market would be going 7% to 8%.
Okay. Okay. In all the three markets, you're looking similar growth trajectory?
Yes, yes.
And FY '23, I missed, I believe you made some comments on the same, these three states and if you're -- some trend on the other states in East, what were the growth numbers?
So I think the gross number is close to 5% to my knowledge. I don't have the numbers really ready with me. So I won't be able to comment with surety, that's what I assume the market has grown by.
Next question is from the line of Shravan Shah from Dolat Capital Markets.
Sir, just to clarify, when you mentioned that in Q2, we will come up with the update in the expansion outside the North East. So we will be announcing that where we will plan to grow by, let's say, in next 3, 4 years. So that's the way one can look at? And broadly, even if we, let's say, want to either acquire a small plant or grow, what's the minimum capacity we are looking at 2 million tonnes that we are looking at?
So yes, I think the -- to grow outside the 2, 3 opportunities there. One is to acquire a mine. The second one is to acquire a plant. So it would just depend on what opportunity fits with us and how does it pan out. So I think in terms of acquiring a mine, the CapEx would be much lower. And then acquiring of 1 million to 2 million, the CapEx will be a bit higher.
So I think -- so we haven't likely tapped on which route we are going to take. So I think it will be a bit hard to comment. So yes, in terms of -- in case we take up -- take a plant, then it would be of about 1.5 million tonnes.
Okay. And when we say that our net debt once the new all the clinker and to grinding units will be operational in 1 year, we will be able to repay. So that will -- the 1 year will start from the August, September, when we'll start the [clinker] grinding unit. So from there, we are looking at 1 year to repay the entire this 500-odd crores that we are looking at max net debt?
So we are looking at -- basically, we're looking at 2024 and 2025 here. So basically, from March '24, the year starts, where we start [indiscernible] to buy March 25, we should be, again, debt free.
So does that mean that we should be able to easily can see a 50%, 60% plus kind of a utilization from the first year itself?
Yes. So I think we do see about a 40% kind of utilization, 40% to 50% utilization. But I think just how the economics work, the subsidies work the cost effectiveness of the cost efficiencies of the bigger [ kiln ] works, right? I'm very sure that we'll be able to pay it off in that year.
Okay. And lastly, just to clarify, we said that now we do not have any incentives in FY '24. No incentive, except that the new branding unit that will come up in Assam, will have state GST benefit. So we do normally have extract a 17 lakh tonnes volume that currently we are doing. So only that benefit will come as a incentive?
Yes. So basically, we have a benefit going on even now that is in the clinker plant and the benefit of small, which is about -- I think about -- it is about INR 26 crores, INR 27 crores. So I think that benefit will remain and then we will get that benefit in the grinding unit and the new grinding unit, and that benefit should be of at least INR [ 150 ] crores to INR [ 150 ] crores, every year.
Next question is from the line of [ Raj Gandhi ] from [ SBI ] Mutual Fund.
Just your freight cost for the quarter, freight cost per tonne is down by about 20% Y-o-Y and 10% Q-on-Q. So is that again some regrouping or how is it going down so much?
Raj, one thing because the decrease now we have their own place. So generally, March, February March prices tend to increase, okay? So -- but we have the fleet, so we are managing to [indiscernible], so we have not allowed to increase the freight cost per tonne in the last 30 March. So that is the reason that freight costs have not increased as compared to Q3, and there is some saving in literage cost.
Okay. Okay. Great. And on fuel, did you happen to mention that 15% is biomass and then there is another 15% from other fuels. So then does the cumulative AFR go to 30%?
Yes. So I think the cumulative AFR right now is of about 25%. And that is mainly because our power plants are operating on biomass and also because we get low-grade AFR in Nagaland, which helps us in, of course, meeting the 25% requirement.
Thank you. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Vaibhav Agarwal.
I had a few questions actually. So just an extension of [ Kamlesh's ] question. First thing, I wanted to know is that Mr. Vinit Kumar Tiwari, he comes from a marketing and sales background from [indiscernible] earlier assignments. So Tushar, I wanted to ask you that he coming on board, do you have any specific expectations from him as the next CEO of the company?
And how do you look him getting on board for Star Cement in particular -- in case of nature of his assignments?
No, completely. So I think there is, of course, a huge expectation from Mr. Vinit Tiwari, given his [ pre-degree ] and the kind of experience he has. And some of the expectations is, of course, to make Star Cement even more operationally capable and to bring in the efficiency. The other expectation is, of course, to see a good growth rate in North East because North East being a very highly profitable market. And given that he has a vast experience in marketing, it will be something which we're looking at.
I think in marketing also, there are good scope of improving ourselves like how we discuss our premium cement, so to push the premium cement to make the technical services stronger because there are some areas in marketing, which, of course, it can basically contribute, too.
And overall, in the overall scheme, of course, we look at his expertise in outside North East markets like North and the Eastern market to, of course, grow the company in those markets by taking capacities which are already set or to take mine in a set of new capacity. So I think the expectations are high. And I think we really hope that we deliver on it.
So I also like to ask you Tushar that -- so any change in -- like we had a CEO structure earlier as well, maybe about 3, 4 quarters back. And so any change in management structure at Star Cement coming on board and how do you look because you've changed a lot of HR policy in Star Cement. I believe you commented some of those on the call as well. So any change in this time with Vinit coming on board? Or it's the same day that the earliest you function and you would like to comment anything on that one?
No, I think with Vinit coming in, of course, all the functions in Star Cement will report to him. And that is, of course, very clear. And so I do not know its earlier structure, we're comparing it to. But I think...
I was comparing to when Sanjay was there on board, when he was the CEO.
I think -- we are from there. I think it would be a bit changed because even the expansion and the growth falls in the CEO now. So I think it will be a bit of a same structure to what the earliest you had. So yes, I think there would be a change in the scope of what we're managing.
And the last thing from this question, first of all, I just want to know, sir, going forward, it's fair to assume that Vinit sir will be focusing more on the marketing and sales efficiency.
Like you told and you would be focused more on the overall growth on now Star Cement to how to take it forward from a promoter's perspective. Is that a fair assumption to make? And what do you think Star Cement could be next? So you did tell on the call that by end of Q2, you may might and share something with us in terms of your next road map. But next, say, next 3 to 5 years, you already have a road map of 10 million tonnes in the near future, but 3 to 5 years, what do you see this number to be maybe 15 million tonnes, 20 million tonnes, 25 million tonnes? What is your expectation?
No, fair enough. So I think to answer the first question, I think, of course, we have the expertise in more an experience in marketing, but he would be looking at all the other functions as well.
And [ indiscernible ] role will be, of course, as a CEO. And besides the operation, he would also be helping us at the management to kind of take decision on going outside North East as well. So I think that is broadly how his job would entail. And the 15- to 20-year horizon -- sorry, the next 5 to 10-year horizon would be that we want to be a 20-million tonne company. And that is what we want to start out and progress the work on.
So 20 million you are saying in the next 5 to 10 years or like 3 to 5 years. I just got a bit of confused.
No 5 to 10 years, sorry. 5 to 10 years target is about 20 million tonnes.
Okay. Great. I understand just one small thing. Did you mention on the call that INR 500 crores would be our debt. Are you talking about peak [indiscernible]? Or are you talking of debt end -- FY '24 end?
No, I think that's the peak debt that we're talking about.
And can you also spell out the CapEx numbers for FY '24 and '25? So if you can just tell what are the CapEx spends in FY '24 and '25 in pipeline, incremental CapEx?
So I think in '24, we are looking at a CapEx of about INR 1,300 crores. And in '25, we'll be looking at a CapEx about INR 400 crores.
Okay. Thanks a lot, Tushar. So on behalf PhillipCapital India Private Limited, that concludes the call. Thank you very much, Tushar. Thank you very much Manoj and Vinit. Thank you very much for the call. Thanks for joining the call. [ indiscernible ], we can now move to the call. Thank you so much.
Thank you very much. On behalf of PhillipCapital India Private Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us. You may now disconnect your lines. Thank you.