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Skipper Ltd
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Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Skipper Limited Q1 FY '24 Earnings Conference Call, hosted by Centrum Broking Limited. There will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. [Operator Instructions] I now hand the conference over to Mr. Rahul Kumar Mishra from Centrum Broking. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thank you. Good afternoon, everyone. On behalf of Centrum Broking Limited, I welcome you all to the Q1 FY '24 Conference Call of Skipper Limited. The management side is represented by Mr. Sharan Bansal, Director; Mr. Devesh Bansal, Director; Mr. Shiv Shankar Gupta, CFO; and Mr. Aditya Dujari, DGM Finance and IR. I would now like to hand over the call to the management for the opening remarks, post which we can take to question and answers. Over to you, sir.
Members of the management, you may go ahead.
Yes. Thank you, Rahul. Good afternoon to you all, and thank you for your continued interest in Skipper. Please take note that any forward-looking statement made during this call must be reviewed in conjunction with the risk that the industry and the company faces.
Some of the key operational financial highlights in comparison to previous year quarter 1 were as follows. I am pleased to inform you that we have delivered yet another good quarter with strong revenue performance across our major business segments, achieving growth of 33% over previous year quarter period while maintaining healthy operating EBITDA margin of 10.2%. The net revenue for the quarter stood at INR 555 crores against INR 416 crores last year.
The segment revenue breakup were as follows: Engineering INR 358 crores, up by 15.6%; polymer, INR 128 crores, up by 46%; and Infra segment, INR 68 crores, up by 33%. The company Engineering export sales were at INR 132 crores and constituted 36% of overall Engineering segment revenue. The company achieved its best-ever first quarter revenue in the polymer business, fueled by robust volume growth of 97%. Our revenue surged by an impressive 46% compared to previous year's quarter 1. The years of dedicated effort towards building a robust retail network for our polymer business have now started showing encouraging results.
Skipper Pipes brand campaign launched on March 31 is seeing excellent market acceptance. The consistent and robust demand growth we are experiencing is poised to be a steady trend, making Skipper Pipes the fastest-growing polymer piping brand in India by far.
Our quarterly operating performance, excluding the impact of ForEx gain/loss, were as follows. Operating EBITDA increased to INR 57 crores and operating margin stood at 10.2%. The Engineering segment operating EBITDA margin for the year stood at 12%. We have clocked the desired margin range of 12% to 13% now for the past many quarters. Going forward also, we will see a consistent margin performance from this business on back of better quality contracts and increased share of engineering export business from developed markets.
The EBITDA margin for polymer business improved to 7.4%. With this business attaining scale and size, we continue to get benefited from fixed cost getting rationalized over larger revenue base. The consolidated PBT increased to INR 23 crores and PBT margins at 4.2% of sales for the current quarter against loss of INR 53 lakhs in previous year's quarter 1. The consolidated PAT increased to INR 16 crores, and PAT margins at 2.9% of sales for the current quarter against a loss of INR 65 lakhs in the previous year quarter.
Our JV, Skipper-Metzer India LLP, engaged in the business of manufacturing of drip and micro irrigation systems, continues to deliver good profitable performance and reported a PAT of INR 4.5 crores during the quarter. The consolidated financial results include our portion of the same.
On the order front, I'm happy to inform you that the current year quarter was the best ever first quarter in the company's history. The company achieved its highest ever first quarter inflow. We secured new orders in excess of INR 1,215 crores during the year against INR 403 crores last year, registering a year-on-year growth of 200%.
During the quarter, we secured export orders from countries of Egypt, Iran, Bolivia, Australia, Nepal and major projects of Power Grid Corporation. The quarter-end closing order book stood at INR 5,372 crores, which is the highest ever in the company's history and is well diversified across sectors and segments. The share of T&D and non-T&D products equally split between 50-50.
The domestic T&D environment is showing signs of a strong rebound after 2 years of lukewarm response. Transmission project awarding activity, which had taken a major hit in the recent past after an ESG-related litigation in the Supreme Court for projects in Rajasthan and Gujarat. However, after a positive ruling from the court, project awarding has already picked up from quarter 1 FY '24, providing the necessary momentum to the domestic T&D industry.
The company is committed to leverage and address the vast potential of India's transmission sector with this integrated operation. With the government-accelerated efforts towards scaling renewable grid infrastructure and improving electrification in urban and rural areas, Skipper is poised to support this growth.
Further, we expect good traction in the international transmission line to continue. Companies witnessing a surge in global inquiries and getting benefited from the China Plus One trend. The global supply chain is actively scouting to minimize this dependency on China.
The company is consistently focusing to grow its exports by being connected and working with 150 global EPC players. Skipper is now looked up to as a serious player armed with complete R&D center and tower testing stations, thereby further strengthening its brand equity in the global market. The company's in-house design team adds meaningful value into the project laced with innovative and cost-effective design solutions. Skipper will benefit from the pent-up demand as the global economy opens up, and the global focus and investment on building T&D infrastructure catering to renewables continues to grow.
The sector continues to witness uptick in both ordering and execution for the company, and the company expects to grow -- company expects growth to gain further pace with increased participation opportunities across the globe. Just to inform, we are already in advanced stages of negotiations and I want to secure some good-sized international and domestic contracts.
Further, the company looks forward to tap emerging opportunities in sectors aligned with the government raising interest. Skipper's raising diversification into the business of telecom, railway electrification. Water EPC and drip irrigation business have tremendous potential, aiming to strengthen its revenue stream. The tender pipeline for us to participate look deep, and the current bidding pipeline also remains strong at their all-time high level of INR 12,500 crores with international share of INR 6,000 crores and domestic at INR 6,500 crores.
Thank you. I'm happy to take your questions now.
We will now begin the question-and-answer session.
[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Gunjan Kabra from Niveshaay.
Firstly, I wanted to understand, in the transmission power line, how much was the opportunity size because of this renewable and electrification telecom that is going on right now? So what is the opportunity size of [ bid line ] in this segment of transport -- transmission tower -- for transmission tower for the next 2 to 3 years? Maybe if you can explain what's the opportunity side. And how much can Skipper cater to what percentage can Skipper also cater to?
Yes. Thank you. So with regards to the domestic market, we had shared earlier that in the month of December, CEA, Central Electricity Authority came up with a white paper projecting about the need for investment of INR 2.4 lakh crores into the transmission grid for catering to connect about 500 gigawatts of renewables into the Indian grid. So that is the kind of outlook one can expect up to 2030 in the domestic market.
With regard to international markets, of course, we don't have a complete picture because that would differ from country to country. However, you may assume 1:1 investment where between generation and transmission distribution, where every dollar spent on generation needs to be matched with the equal dollar investment in transmission and distribution. So I would believe that, that would be the opportunity at a global level.
No, I wanted to understand that INR 2.5 lakh crores is a -- hello?
Yes, yes, I can hear you. .
Sir, I wanted to understand if INR 2.5 lakh crores is kind of the expenditure that has been outlined by the government. So how much is the opportunity size for transmission tower because there will be other components as well. So what's the market opportunity size for Skipper Limited is what I wanted to understand.
You may assume a market opportunity size for Skipper between 25% to 35%. .
25% to 35%. Okay. And sir if the transmission tower, what kind of margin expectation can you have in your backward integrated as well. So what kind of margins can we think for transmission towers because of that advantage of backward integration and going forward, if the execution happens on time?
We have maintained that on a blended basis. Our engineering product division is capable to deliver 12% to 13% on an EBITDA basis. So we are already achieving that number. And with the growth in business and better demand, we should be able to improve upon those margins in the future.
Okay. And sir, inventory days and working capital days, I wanted to understand. It's huge for our company. So are we like planning because of the market environment turns into the company's favor. So what kind of days are you targeting to -- for the working capital days, what kind of days are we targeting?
So as you cited, this is a backward integrated plant. We need to keep inventory for ruling for partner division and for other this tower manufacturing. So our inventories currently at those 5 months level and the total net working days is roughly 4 months plus, 130-odd days. It's the same as of March -- year ended March also, and June quarter was also same at 130 days.
We have seen an improvement in the debtor number of days last year where we were able to bring down our debtor days from 100 days in FY '22 to about 70 days in FY '23. This year also, we can hope for further improvement on the debtor number of days.
However, as Shiv Ji explained that due to the backward integration nature of operations of the company, our inventory cycle is about 5 months' time, and we are quite comfortable with that.
Okay. Okay. Got it. Sir, in the global market, how is the market structure? How many players are there? Or even the U.S. and the Europe market is mainly catered to by the Chinese market. Or how is the structure in the global market and specifically in the U.S. or the Europe?
So world over, there exists local players all over the world, including the U.S., Canada and other European geographies. There are small or medium-sized players across the globe who cater to mostly regional demand.
However, when it comes to large manufacturers, Skipper would rank among the top 5 manufacturers for T&D structure in the world. And we are operating -- very few companies are operating at multi-country level, multi-continent level like Skipper is doing. We do have competition from certain Chinese and Turkish companies. However, with the growing China Plus One strategy being adopted by many, many countries, the opportunities are opening up more and more for Skipper.
Okay. Then apart from the BSNL order, what kind of order execution can we expect in this year?
Apart from the BSNL, we are in the first quarter, as we reported, we did take an order intake of about INR 700 crores from Power Grid Corporation for the new transmission lines to be built in the State of Andhra Pradesh, in the State of UP and in the State of Rajasthan. We are expecting some more tenders to be finalized in the State of Rajasthan and Gujarat in the coming quarters. So some amount of execution of those projects should also come in apart from the BSNL execution.
Okay. But the project types for which we have already received the orders, they are on time. I just wanted to check that. Or are there any delays in the execution on those orders?
No, the usual challenges are there in the project execution concern, but nothing out of the ordinary. We should be able to complete all projects on time.
[Operator Instructions]
The next question is from the line of Rahul Kumar Mishra from Centrum Broking.
Congratulations on a good set of numbers. Sir, my question pertains to the export side. So as you mentioned in your initial remarks that we have got some really good orders from international markets. So like if you could throw some ballpark figure in terms of how much margins that they could generate for the company. It's not the exact figure. And what is our expectations for FY '24 export margins?
As we have maintained in the past, export projects do come with about 2% to 3% better margins. So we -- just the way we saw growth in export revenue last year, we should also be seeing growth on an absolute number basis. However, since the domestic ordering and execution is also strong, maybe on a percentage basis, we might not see growth in export order execution.
Sure. Sir, my next question also pertains to the export market. So if you just can share about the bidding pipeline? And is there any new region which is giving us incremental orders? Or we are just seeing -- or sorry, if we are seeing any new regions giving us new orders or we are seeing incremental orders from the regions where we already have strong presence?
Yes. So our current bidding pipeline in international market is about INR 6,000 crores. We are seeing growth in a number of markets, including our traditional markets, which are the developing countries like Latin America region or the Middle East region and Africa region. These are continuously seeing demand.
However, what is more encouraging is that we are seeing growth in demand from more developed economies as well, for example, Australia and even North America. So both these countries, we are seeing better and better inquiry for larger and larger projects. And as we do better or more projects in these developed countries, we can hope for even more margin expansion.
Okay. And sir, if you could help us understand the competitive intensity that we could face or that we are currently facing in these international markets?
I would say that, as I mentioned to the previous analyst, that there are very few companies which are of Skipper's scale and size. So honestly, we are -- we don't face that kind of competition from other large global manufacturers. The only other serious competition that we have are from China and from Turkey, and more and more countries are choosing to buy less and less from Chinese manufacturers.
So honestly, our competition remains only with Turkish manufacturers. We do find that where sea freight is concerned after COVID, in 2020 and '21, we saw an exponential increase in sea freight, which was reducing our competitiveness. However, now sea freight rates have now come back to pre-COVID levels. So we see no challenge where competitiveness is concerned. The other, as I mentioned earlier, we see opportunity for a lot of margin expansion when we actually compete with the local regional players in various countries who are probably not as competitive as what we are.
[Operator Instructions]
The next question is from Dhruv Agarwal from Niveshaay Investment Advisers.
Yes, sir. Congratulations for the good set of numbers, sir. Sir, Basically, I have a question regarding, generally in industry sir, on average in Polymer segment, it is around somewhere around 14%. Then why are we like getting such a low margin? Can you throw some light on that, sir?
Yes. So basically, in the Polymer segment, we are still scaling up. As you'll see, the margins have improved from last year to this year as our top line has improved. And as this increases further over the next few quarters, we expect the margins to also significantly improve from these levels. .
Okay. sir, like if we can see like from March '15 to March '18, we were having like great margins in Engineering and Polymer segment. So when can we expect to get that margins once again, sir?
For the Polymer segment, I can tell you that we will see steady improvement in margins as we go along. In the Engineering segment, like we have mentioned, our margin expectation is in the range of 12% to 13% on an operating level, and we are very confident of achieving those.
Okay. And sir, my question -- 1 more question is what is the like cheaper source to get the raw materials, sir? And from where do we get that, whether from exports -- like whether from internationally or domestically, sir, and bifurcation for the same, sir?
It's a combination, and it keeps changing from time to time. So we do import raw materials as well as buy domestically. So it really depends on the market situation from time to time, so it's not any fix for this.
Sir, like in current financial year like '23, like what was the percentage you can like disclose, sir?
I don't think that is information that we share. But in general, it's a mix between domestic and international. And we are -- obviously, we are ambiguous to both of them. .
Okay, sir. And sir, like how do we see the tower demand from 5G rollout for that? Does the telecom company need additional towers or not, sir?
Yes, there is a significant demand increase on the telecom side from both the 5G expansion as well as the other projects, such as the BSNL project that we have received. And we expect this trend to continue for at least, I would say, at least the next couple of years, wherein not many sites will have to be deployed. So there is going to be very good traction for telecom tower.
Sir, like if you can exclude that BSNL tower like in future, do you expect anything from towers like from 5G rollout?
Yes. Currently, also, we are operating in the 5G space. So operators like Reliance Jio, like Indus Towers and others, they're expanding rapidly in the 5G space as well. And we are participating in all of those requirements. .
Okay, okay. And sir, any CapEx plan in the coming year, like in financial year '24-'25?
Yes, we have a CapEx plan of INR 75 crores for this financial year.
Okay. And it will be used for, sir?
We use for further -- some part of it will go towards maintenance CapEx and some part will go towards capacity optimization and increase.
Okay. Sir, as we like can see, like there is already underutilization of the capacity. Sir, so can you throw some light on that, sir?
Yes. But this year, thanks to the order book that we have secured last year, we do expect that the capacity utilization will be much higher this year compared to last year. And we will need capacity expansion this year to cater to further growth next year.
Like can you quantify, sir, like if -- in case of capacity additions, sir?
See, there is no specific capacity enhancement, but there would be a reduction of bottlenecks in the production. So what happens is when we are -- when this order come, we have installed certain machines, which will give us the maximum output at that. So our capacity enhancement from otherwise would be from, in case of engineering, it would be from 74% in the last financial year. This year, we are expecting it to be over 85%. And for Polymer segment, it will be from 42% in the last financial year to over 60% this year.
[Operator Instructions] The next question is from Rahul Kumar Mishra from Centrum Broking.
My question is pertaining to the domestic market. So in the last quarter, we saw there was a lot of pent-up demand in domestic T&D as most of the tenders, they got postponed and they were supposed to be coming in the subsequent month. So do we see the traction of incremental projects coming from domestic sector? If yes, then whichever states are we seeing healthy demand coming from?
Yes. We are seeing a lot of traction and demand coming in the domestic sector, and majority of the projects will be coming in the States of Rajasthan and Gujarat.
Okay. And sir, what could be the margin profile, if you could share?
As I mentioned earlier, our engineering product portfolio should continue to do at about 12% to 13%.
Okay. Fine. Fair enough. Sir, my next question is on the water EPC projects that we won last quarter. That was for about INR 1 billion or INR 100 crore project. So as a company, what is the size that we are targeting for the entire year? And what is our aspiration to grow in this particular domain? And so what market share are we targeting to gain?
So this is the first water EPC project that the company has undertaken. And while the market opportunity is very, very large, we are moving cautiously in this, and we are waiting for this first project to see some amount of execution and building to happen before we undertake new projects. We don't foresee the demand to go down in the next 2 to 3 years. So there's growth opportunity. But for the current year, I think we'll be restricting ourselves to this particular project that we have.
[Operator Instructions] Well, that was the last question. I would now like to hand the conference back to the management team for closing comments. I'm sorry, I beg your pardon. We have a few questions in line. The next question is from the line of Jatin Damania from Kotak.
Sir, I just wanted to ask, if you look on a sequential basis, the bidding pipeline or the tender pipeline has increased from the domestic market from INR 3,500 crores last quarter to almost INR 8,000 crores. So any color in terms of both exports and the domestic market when these tenders will be awarded and what is the margin profile for these tenders?
Could you repeat the question, please? Hello. Sorry, could you repeat the question, please?
So sir, as you look in the last quarter, our tender book or the bidding pipeline was about INR 9,500 crores. And currently, we're almost around INR 12,500 crores. So we have seen a significant increase in the tendering pipeline from the domestic market. So just wanted to understand the margin profile and when will this tendering will be awarded and the margin profile for domestic as well as the international business.
Yes. So as I mentioned earlier that the domestic projects have started to see award. In the first quarter also, we secured orders of about INR 700 crores from Power Grid. More such orders are in the pipeline. So in terms of award consistently, we will keep seeing every quarter more and more awards coming up.
And with regards to margins, though domestic margins also are at a healthy level right now because of increased demand, international projects do give 2% to 3% better margins. However, currently, we have seen that domestic margins are also at a healthy level.
I agree but when you say that. I mean, export business gives you 200 to 300 bps higher margin as compared to domestic. And given our order book tended towards the export market, do we think that the 12% to 13% margin guidance you are giving on engineering product cycle, will it lower and that will be a further upside to that number?
No, there's no chance of lowering of that margin. We will consistently try to improve upon it.
Right. And secondly, sir, as a few guidelines on the Polymer business. So everyone knows that the market on the Polymer is growing -- has grown in the last few years and our market share is quite minimal. So as a company, what are we doing? Because last quarter we said that we have increased our distribution and we are focusing on the branded activities. So what are the steps that we have taken to increase the market of polymer?
Yes. So as you can see, the growth in our Polymer business has been very healthy. We have almost doubled the revenue compared to last -- previous year quarter. The volumes have grown by more than 97%, and the revenues have grown by more than 46%. So we are growing at a very fast pace. And you're right, the market is very bullish, and the demand is going to be very, very strong for the next few years. And we hope to take advantage of that and grow aggressively in this business.
But is it safe to assume that [indiscernible] down the line, the current market is around 1%, can we reach to 2% in next 2 to 3 years?
So the target is to be higher than that. But yes, I mean, we'll continue growing in this and we'll see how the market goes.
The next question is from Dhruv Agarwal from Niveshaay Investment Advisors.
Sir, what could be the domestic market size of Engineering and Polymer segment? And what would be the share of Skipper in that sir?
With regard to Engineering segment, because it's a combination of multiple sectors. See, our Engineering segment has multiple products, transmission towers, transmission monopole, distribution pole, railway electrification structure, telecom towers. So honestly, it's to combine all the different sectors and speak about the market size would be a little difficult.
However, we are the largest manufacturer for T&D and telecom structures in India and among the largest structure -- among the largest manufacturers in the world. With regards to Polymer market segment, the total market size opportunity would be about INR 35,000 crores in the Polymer Piping segment. And obviously, as Devesh was mentioning a while ago, we are yet right now at a small base and a small market share. So there's a plenty of headroom to grow.
Okay. Sir, my -- like can you throw some light on the percentage, sir, what will be the going ahead percentage, sir, in the coming years?
Yes. So currently, we are at what, 0.1?
We are not even 1%.
We are not even 1% of the market share in Polymer. So obviously, we can't put a number to it. But yes, like we experienced good growth last year. And this year, in the first quarter, we've already seen 50% growth. So I think our focus will remain on increasing this number and obviously, to grow profitability.
Okay. And sir, 1 more question is, do we have any plans on debt reduction, sir?
Yes. As the company's margin profile improves and working cycle improves, definitely, we have achieved debt reduction in last year despite a growth in revenue. So we should see better and better company internal accruals. The company management is also considering various equity raising options for which we are going to be meeting on the 16th of this month to take a final decision.
Okay. And sir, 1 last question, sir. What's the future outlook for the top line? Like any percentage?
Yes. We have guided earlier on 25% CAGR growth for the next 3 years.
So like are we positive on that output, sir?
I'm sorry, once again.
My question was, sir, are we positive on that output, sir?
Yes, we are very positive.
That was the last question. I would now like to hand the conference back to the management team for closing comments.
We are confident of delivering profitable revenue growth with a consistent margin in the current year and expect to clock revenue growth in excess of 25% CAGR for the next 3 financial years on back of spending engineering contracts and a strong Polymer segment performance.
Our diversification into international markets and sectors will help us to pick, choose higher-margin orders coming our way and provide us an opportunity to be [ poised ] for charges across the sectors, leading to continued better margin performance, improved bottom line profitability and capital return ratios in the coming quarters. We will continue to focus on improving bottom line profitability, stabilize operating cash flows, trim our debt, thereby leading to improvement of the company's margin profile and strengthen its balance sheet position and capital return ratios.
The company's efforts towards sustainable business practices will help to achieve its goal by making meaningful contributions to the national and global infrastructure. We appreciate your continued support and look forward to interact with you again in the next quarter. Thank you.
On behalf of Centrum Broking Limited, that concludes the conference. Thank you for joining us. Ladies and gentlemen, you may now disconnect your lines.