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PTC India Ltd
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[Audio Gap]
We thank you for the participation on this call. We trust you and your loved ones are safe and in good health. Our good wishes to all of you.
Last couple of years have been unusually challenging for everyone. Our company has been making every effort to keep operations up and running following -- and following the required safety guidelines. We compliment and thank all our associates and stakeholders for their efforts, support and optimism.
Going forward, I would like to welcome you all for the earnings conference call for the fourth quarter and the annual FY '22 of PTC India Limited. To discuss business performance and future outlook, we have from the management side, our Chairman and Managing Director, Dr. Rajib Kumar Mishra, who is also handling the charge of Director Marketing and BD; Shri Harish Saran ji, ED Commercial and Operations; Pankaj Goel, our CFO, joining us from London. Rajesh Cherayil, our Chief Strategy Officer; Anand Kumar, part of the IR team; and Mukesh, VP: Finance.
I hand over the proceedings to now the Chairman, Dr. Rajib Mishra.
Thank you, Sushant. And welcome to our investors meet. This, we are doing it on a virtual meet, and we would love to do it physically as soon as possible. But this time, we have continued what we were doing for the last almost 2.5 years.
Financial year 2021, '22 became a bellwether year for PTC in terms of traded volume, as we traded record 87.5 billion units of electricity, and we have surpassed this -- our previous 80 billion units traded in the previous financial year. And we have maintained a market share of around 52% this year. And despite the nonavailability of income of around INR 74 crores from a one-off transactions from Bangladesh, our total operating margin at around INR 704 crores is more than what we have done in the previous year.
Our consultancy income has increased by almost 35%, and we have reached a number of around INR 39.75 crores and we have already completed the acquisition process of the ILFS Energy Advisory business, and that will be added in this financial year from this financial year onwards.
Despite the headwinds on the lack of exceptional income and COVID-induced behavior, which was affected twice in the same year, 1 and in the Wave 2 and the other in the COVID Wave 3 where the demand has gone down by almost 18% to 20% in the country, we have shown an increased volume of more than 9% in this year, and we have shown the resilience of business model this year as well and we have come out with the new schemes and some of the innovative projects, which we will discuss during the conversation.
Before I take it further, I would request now CFO of the company, Mr. Pankaj Goel to give you a brief presentation on the performance of the company and some of the numbers which we would like to share with you for the performance during the year. Mr. Pankaj, go ahead?
Yes. Thank you, MD sir, and good evening to everybody. And as this thing -- as you are aware that the presentation has already been uploaded on the website. But again, briefly, I will go through the financial number.
The -- first, I will go through the quarter ended March '22. The volume has increased by 6% to 17.3 billion units from 16.3 billion units. The total operational income has increased by 38% to INR 279 crores from INR 202 crores. Profit before tax has also increased by 99% to INR 211 crores from INR 106 crores. The profit after tax has also increased by 146% to INR 156 crores from INR 63 crores.
In line with the same, the total other comprehensive income already has also increased by 160% to INR 166 crores from INR 64 crores. The earnings per share for this quarter stood at 5.27 in comparison to 2.14 during the last quarter.
Now, I will go to the performance for the year as a whole for March '22, the volume has increased by 9% to 87.5 billion units from 80 billion units. The total operational income has increased by 2% to INR 744 crores from INR 728 crores. The profit before tax has increased by 1% to INR 571 crores from INR 566 crores. Profit after tax has increased by 4% to INR 425 crores from INR 410 crores. The total other comprehensive income has increased by 6% to INR 435 crores from INR 411 crores. The earnings per share for the year stood at INR 14.35 compared to INR 13.86.
Thank you. Now I will request our ED commercial and operation, Mr. Harish Saran, to give his remarks also. Thank you.
Good afternoon to everybody. I will tell something about the working capital cycle and segment-wise operating margin, which we have had during the year. As far as working capital cycle goes, average sales per day increased by 28% to [indiscernible] . Average collection period has gone down to 72.62 days whereas 80.8 in the year '21. Average payment days have reduced to 46.24 days in comparison to 50.05 in the financial year '21.
Net rebate income has increased by 12%. Working capital cycle has reduced to 26.38 days as compared to 35.55 days in the year '21.
As far as segment-wise operating margin goes, so the transaction margin without the exceptional transaction on a volume-weighted basis has dropped by 48% to 2.82 paisa per unit as compared to 3.28 paisa per unit in the last financial year.
Transaction margin, including the exceptional transactions has dropped by 33% compared to 4.19 paisa per unit for the year '21. Short-term volumes have increased almost by 59% of the overall annual traded volume. Despite the increase in transaction margin in short-term segment from 0.68 paisa per unit to 0.80 paisa per unit this year, their undue influence in the overall portfolio mix brings the total portfolio margins down.
Medium-term trade volumes, they have dropped by 6%, and the transaction margin in this segment that has been dipped by 11%, decreasing the overall operating margin in this segment by almost 16%.
As far as the long-term margins are concerned, they remain stable. However, the volume has been dipped by 11%, decreasing the overall trading margin by 11%. The short-term transactions for the fourth quarter, that has been dipped by 42%, and the per unit transaction margin has been dipped 38%.
Cross-border traded volumes in the fourth quarter, that has been dipped by 50% in this quarter.
So altogether, what we mean to say is this year, when there was crisis of coal, and there was uncertainty in the supply, in spite of all these factors, the PTC has maintained a volume of 87.5 billion unit. And we expect that the long term will start getting supply and the cross-border also will increase from this year because the Bangladesh supply is restored now and the full supply is being done.
So these are some of the highlights which we wanted to share. And at this point of time, I think this is what we have to share with all the investors and analysts. Now we will -- we can open it for any question and answer.
[Operator Instructions] We have the first question from the line of Mohit Kumar from DAM Capital.
Good evening, sir. Am I audible? .
You are very much audible, Mohit. Please continue.
Congratulations on good set of numbers, sir. First question is, sir, on the profitability for the quarter. I think -- of course, we see the numbers are pretty high, but the numbers have been driven by the a large amount of surcharge income in the quarter. So given the uncertain environment, this creates a slightly, let's say, a perception, which is that these numbers are not sustainable, and this can create some issues in terms of receivables going forward, given that the discoms are still not in the pink of the health. So how do you see the FY '23, the numbers -- how do you think this will pan out?
And secondly, if you can comment on the volume for Q1, given that there is a lot of the -- there's a lot of volatility in the entire system, how is the volume panned out for Q1?
Mohit, you have asked a pertinent question. As I just mentioned that this year, the year which has completed in 31st March, we have seen 2 corona waves during this time. And during that time, we have seen a lot of lockdowns and demand slow down during this period.
And with the uncertainty in demand, the short-term volume has taken larger share in the portfolio, and that is being reflected in our portfolio as well. The second aspect which you wanted to cover is the rebate in surcharge income. That is an integral we have explained to you earlier. That is an integral part of our agreement with all the utilities, and we have always seen that as a part of our trading business income as well.
So keeping that in mind and knowing very well that we are dealing with the customers we are currently having, that the utility customers and the generators we know that what kind of rebate and surcharge we are going to earn. So we find it as a certain kind of income rather than some where we are seeing any aberrations in any part of the year. So I've answered both the questions.
And the third part, you're asking about the quarter 1, I think you need to wait when we are meeting again for the quarter 1 results, and I'll be in a position to answer your question at that point of time.
But let me tell you that this last 2 months, there was shortage of coal. There was some power crisis and all the stakeholders have got some kind of impact from these situations, but we will be in a position to give you a better picture once we are meeting after the quarter 1 business.
Understood, sir. My second question is on the power exchanges we are about to launch at the exchange. I understand that we are maybe 10, 15 days away from launching this chain, what is the vision for the next 5 to 10 years, where you see the exchange? And what kind of shareholding we would like to have -- because about launch I think you -- so what kind of shareholding would you like to hold for the next few years? Do we still maintain that we're going to hold 6% or will it be dropping down to 5% and we'll become a trading member of our exchange?
Mohit, I can answer your first question very easily because we have already launched, and we have kickstarted the functioning of the HPX today. So that is the news, which I would like to share with all the investors and analysts that the HPX has started functioning from sixth of July, and the first trading was done at 3:00 today and the inauguration of the exchange was done today at 11 a.m. in the morning.
So it has started working. And with 3 products, they have started, and they will be launching slowly all the products available currently in the 2 exchanges. But other than that, they have in pipeline, some of the new products also which they would like to introduce in due course of time.
And exchanges in the country will have a substantial market share because that brings a lot of short-term volume which is very close to the dispatch. And we expect that the role of exchanges in the country will increase year-on-year.
As far as the shareholding pattern of the exchange is concerned, I can tell you the current shareholding pattern, but I cannot tell anything about what will happen in future and what will -- whether we will be a member or not. Right now, we are one of the largest promoter of the exchange. And with our sincere effort, this exchange is today, this has gone live.
So they are the status is and maybe futuristic questions, as and when it comes, we will keep sharing with you and the investors.
So if I may ask, what kind of products you think the exchanges, the new exchange we introduce? Or let's say, how do you -- how will you differentiate with the other exchanges?
As I said, currently, all the products which are currently available in the exchanges, they are trying to do. But you know that in the recent regulations, many of the other products has been allowed. And there is a lot of scope of innovation in those products, which has been recently been allowed for a longer duration contract, which each exchange has to come out with their own products. And I am a very strong believer that the kind of team we have in the HPX, they will come out with very innovative and good products, which will have a niche market of its own.
Sir, last question on the consulting. How you see the consulting income growing in the next 4 to 5 years? And which are the capabilities we are trying to build? And which of the capabilities you believe that will give you a better revenue numbers going forward?
First of all, I mean I go for a shorter term first. As I informed that the innovation agreement of all the contracts for the ILFS has already been completed. And this is in the final leg of acquisition. So with -- we will start this business together, and that will be the first in our kitty for expanding this business. Of course, organically, we are growing each year to the extent of 30%, 35%. This year also, we have grown by 35%. But other than that, the first acquisition is almost complete, and that will be part of our consulting business.
More important is, this year, we are trying to look into the other areas, niche areas, both engineering and nonengineering and management areas where we can do consulting, including the power portfolio management that we will keep unfolding. And we are collaborating with some of the leading players internationally to expand our business in this area.
4 years, 5 years down the line as and when we will plan, Mohit, I'll come back to you and with other investors to share our vision on that.
The next question is from the line of Ankush Agarwal from Surge Capital.
Am I audible?
You're audible. Ankush, you can be a little louder so that we can hear you clearer.
Yes, yes, yes. My question again was on the HPX. So I just wanted to understand in the long term, how does this fit in the overall strategy and vision of PTC, because at the moment since we were 26%, we can't become a trading member. And that would mean that we cannot directly drive volume to that exchange. And if we reduce our ownership to 5% and then we can dive volumes, it won't benefit from us because 5% is a material stake.
At the same time, as you also mentioned that over time, the relevance of exchanges is going to increase in India. So even with that, how do you see PTC fitting in that scheme of things, when power exchange are gaining traction? So how does the trading licenses fit with these two?
I answered just for a couple of minutes that we can discuss about something where we are today. And we are the first and the largest promoter of that exchange. And the volume is not only going to come only from the existing market, but from a lot of new products, which they are going to launch. And we have to see how things will pan out from here, and then we can take a call on that. But as far as the shareholding pattern of the company is concerned, we are where we are.
Okay. And in this scheme, if exchanges are increasingly becoming more important than how do you see a trading license like PTC fitting into the overall scheme of things in that longer term?
PTC, in any case, let me clarify, PTC in the core business of trading, we have demonstrated in the past also, that OTC market will remain a very strong market. And we have a strong belief that the bilateral market has to play hand in hand with the exchange traded product. So, it's not that one will be important and the second will be unimportant. I never said that. I only said that they are also gaining importance and the bilateral market is equally important for the company.
We have our next question from the line of Dinesh Kothawade as a retail investor.
Am I audible?
Yes, Dinesh, you're audible.
I've got 3 questions. I want to understand the -- any target dates for [indiscernible] deal with that we were going for our PTC energy? Second question is, is there any target date for our -- by our committee for this forensic audit that we are doing for PTC financial? And the third thing is this exchange, what we are doing is, is there any plans to go for other commodities like gold, crypto or oil or even share? Is there any target? Or is there any plans for it?
Thank you, Dinesh, but all the questions, what you asked are related to our associates or a subsidiary company. And this is PTC. We would be happy to answer the questions related to PTC first.
My first question, what you asked about related to -- the -- again, PFS, I think they will be in a better position to give answers, when they will be completing the activities. As far as the HPX going into the other commodity exchanges, I understand HPX will be in a better position to answer it. But if you ask me, I understand they have just started the electricity trade and platform. So we have to stick to that for the time being. So these are the 2 things which I can make out from you. And any other question, Dinesh, which you wanted to understand?
Yes. One, I think you skipped the SJVN deal that we wanted to do.
SJVN , I mean, there are one major development in that, that their Andhra Pradesh High Court has given a favorable order for ˆ megawatts. And now the things are much favorable to the PTC for as far as this asset is concerned.
So we are keeping a very open view on this. Whether the deal -- what we did at that point of time when there was a dispute going on or should we try to find out something where we can get a better deal. So both the options we are keeping open at this point of time, and we will share with the investors as and when we get the clear picture on this. Because the things have drastically changed with the new order coming from AP High Court.
So that means can we safely assume that we are going to renegotiate the deal?
That's -- I mean, if -- I'll not be in a position to discuss anything which is contractual terms in the deal. But at the same time, we would like to do the best for the company. And whatever best way we can handle it, we will try to do that.
[Operator Instructions] So in the meanwhile, as the questions assembles, we have a few text questions lined up, sir. Should we go ahead with that?
Yes, please go ahead. If there is nobody to ask, you can go ahead with the text question.
Yes, sir. So we have a first text question from the line of Siddharth Shah from Vikram Advisory Services. The question is the dividend policy suggests a minimum of 50% payout of PAT. So is this PAT considered as a stand-alone or consolidated? Second question. Sorry, would you like to answer that one by one?
Please continue.
Sure, sir. Second question, what was the logic behind considering second interim dividend and then deferring the same?
Question number three, when can we expect the consolidated results to come out?
Yes, Pankaj ji, if you would like to answer the -- on the policy and then I can supplement you.
Yes. As far as the dividend policy is concerned, -- the -- as per the policy, this is 50% of the PAT on stand-alone basis.
Yes. And the second question was related to why we have decided to do it later, interim, we are not interested to give. But in any case, the investors are going to get reward of their dividend only after the AGM. And hopefully, we will be clearing it before the AGM so that you will be rewarded with the dividend when it comes as per the dividend policy.
We have the next text question from the line of Vikas Gupta as an individual investor. Please provide the breakup of the debtors top 4, 5 debtor entity, along with the aging 3, 6, 12 months past due. What is the status with respect to selling stake in PFS and any additional capital will be required to be infused in the PFS or power exchange in the near future?
Last question, I will answer first, and then I'll hand it over to executive director commercial to answer the debtors.
As far as the -- any investment in PFS, we have always maintained that we are not going to invest in any of the 2 subsidiary companies at this point of time nor we have any plans to do it in future.
In the HPX currently, the requirement is all met and the regulator has given them all clearances to go ahead with their go-live . So at this point of time, no plans. But if there is a requirement in the capital, we will let you know. If it comes, and then we will share it with the investors.
For the debtors, the common and debtors of the company, I'll request Mr. Harish Saran ji to give you the data.
Thank you, sir. As far as net debtor days, which are overdue goals, in March '22, it was 55 days in comparison to March '21, when it was 54. So more or less, it is the same. And as far as top 5, I think you asked about top 5 debtors.
Saran sir, I will take this question.
Yes, please go ahead.
Yes, sir. The total debtors for the year at March '22 is INR 6,739 crores. Out of this, as asked the top 5 debtors, the -- out of it, the J&K, it's around INR 1,567 crores -- I think INR 1,567 crores. And the next one is UP, which is INR 551 crores, Bihar at INR 556 crores. And then there is TNEB, which is INR 6000 -- sorry, INR 637 crores. And then there is Telangana, which is INR 479 crores.
But as I tell that these figures looks to be on the higher side, but this is -- I'm telling you that because the question was put on that sense that I'm telling the figures on a gross basis. But as far as -- you also know that every time we say that our working capital or the utilized efficiency of the working capital has to be seen on a net-to-net basis that how much we have 2 creditors on a back-to-back basis.
So if we go by the same analogy, the -- our total working capital for this at March '22 was INR 2,448 crores. Out of it, as far as the aging is concerned, on an exposure basis, the more than more than 6 months exposure is around only INR 515 crores and out of which there are the -- some payments or we have done the bill discounting and all that. So after taking into account -- this figure is I'm telling on 30th April, which we have received or we have done a bill discounting.
So if we take out that, so we're just left with a figure of open exposure of around INR 202 crores. So this is very, very nominal as far as our total turnover of around INR 33,000 crores for the year is concerned. And out of this INR 200 crores, only the INR 48 crores, more than 6 months is towards Bihar, INR 55 crores is towards Jharkhand, INR 98 crores is towards the J&K. Thank you.
We have a next text question from the line of Rohit Natarajan from Antique. The question is, what are the plans ahead for increasing long-term volumes? We have heard plans in the past like signing PPA with [ RE Genco ], sorry, what is the situation over there?
Yes, we have plans what we have shared with the investors in the last investor meet, and I'll continue what we mentioned there, and then we'd like to answer specifically about one specific opportunity.
We have already entered into in the pilot 2 case, we have already done 820 megawatts of PPAs with various generators. And we did TANGEDCO, 1500-megawatt scheme. We have entered for 627 megawatts of LOI plays to different generators. So these are the 2 things which we would like to share. In the recent past, we have done it.
More important is their government is coming out with 8,000 megawatt scheme for the long-term PPA or medium-term PPA for the stressed asset. And in the past, PTC being the largest player, we have already played a major role in getting these PPAs done, and we will continue to do this in this 8,000-megawatt scheme also.
Other than this, we are also seriously considering to enter into the EPS with the renewable players. And that scheme is at the last leg of discussions with the stakeholders, including regulators and also the policymakers, because there is a minor change in what we have done in the past and what we are going to do in the future. So once that is clear, we will go ahead with this scheme as well.
So all the schemes, what we have discussed with the investors in the last investor meet, we are going ahead with it, and we are going to get results out of these schemes
The next question is from the line of [Jayendra Kumar] as individual investor. May I know the business impact on PTC as power trading business is getting shifted from PTC to HPX? Second, may I know the status of PTC Energy sales to SJVN?
Yes. The first part I have already answered that PTC is doing most of it on a bilateral basis. And some of the exchange shares are also being done, and we are continuing with those business, and we have shown robust growth in the bilateral business in the past, and we will continue doing it in future. And the OTC market globally also has a significant market, and we are not underplaying those markets. So that's the answer for question number one.
And the second part of your question, I have already answered, so I'll not repeat it for efficiency.
We move to our next text question. That is from the line of Rajesh Shah as an individual shareholder. When is the Board meeting expected for a recommendation of final dividend for the year 2021, '22, keeping in mind the dividend policy of the company to distribute 50% of the profit.
Thank you. And we are well aware of the fact, our dividend policy, and you have seen the numbers also. So certainly, we will go back to the board as early as possible and declare the dividend. But to tell you the date, we have not finalized the rate. And as soon as it will be finalized, it will be intimated to the stock exchanges and through stock exchanges, you will come to know when the dates will be. But we are equally eager to share the numbers as early as possible.
We now move to a voice question. We're just from the line of Mohit Kumar from DAM Capital. .
Thank you again for the opportunity. So my first question is, are there any emerging cross-border trading opportunity, given that couple of power plants vis-Ă -vis in Bhutan get set up in the near future?
Yes, Mohit, you are right. I mean, there are opportunities, and we are not leaving cross-border as our main business, and you may be aware that in the entire cross-border area, we are having more than 55% of the volume done through PTC. And we are keeping a close watch on all the developments, all the new regulations in the neighboring countries and also the opportunities coming out of the new generation coming up in these areas. And as soon as something which we can share with you, certainly, we will share. And let us reiterate that cross-border, we are very active, and we are looking at all the opportunities and trying to make it as a business case.
Secondly has the AP Discom call, started paying for PTC Energy or have they gone into appeal at the Supreme Court?
No, the routine appeals, they have done and they have admitted, because in the appeal itself, they have admitted so many things that they are not going against the order. But at the same time, they have gone for a plea saying that they don't have the right -- they don't have sufficient fund to liquidate the outstanding. So these are some of the things which is not only related to AP, but once the AP order is there, and they're admitting that they are ready to pay, unless they have their money.
So they are trying to approach the PFC, REC and other lenders to get that money and so that they can make the payment to all the renewable generators.
Lastly sir, does it make sense to have our own OTC platform?
You have asked the question, Mohit, where OTC platform as per the PMR 21 is an opportunity, but I would not say because there are a lot of things involved in it, and we have given our comments to the regulator. And we are continuously having a dialogue with them. What is the benefit and how it is going to take shape, although the standard operating procedure has been issued.
But let me tell you that at this point of time, I would not like to share anything with what is going on and how it all will pan out. But PTC being the largest trader, we are keeping a close watch on all the regulatory changes, which we see.
We have the next question from the line of [ Akash M ] from ACM.
So a couple of questions regarding the working capital mix. I hope you can hear me. The first part is...
Akash, if you can speak a bit louder. We should hear your question properly then we can answer it properly.
Is it better now?
Yes, yes, much better. Go ahead.
So with the establishment of HPX, do you see an improvement in the receivables that you have right now? I understand from Pankaj ji that net receivables are not so significant. They keep on churning after every 6 months or they get repaid. But this is a working capital-intensive business for you, right? So with HPX does it come -- does the working capital come down?
Pankaj, would you like to answer?
Yes. As far as the HPX is concerned, the -- actually, at this moment, most of the utilities is trading through PTC on the exchange platform. And the -- except the one utility, I will say, J&K , every utility is paying on time within, let's say, if -- as per the agreement, they are allowed the 7 days credit, so they are paying on 7 days credit.
So as far as -- I don't know about the HPX -- how HPX because if they deal directly with HPX, so I don't think that they will be able to get the credit. So as I understand, if they have to avail the credit and all that, they will remain with PTC and there are cases one up and one down, maybe some of the utilities are paying on time and maybe some of the utilities are not. But they are paying the due date. And till date, I will assure you whatever we receivables, there is a zero bad debt basically. Not even a single penny has been lost out.
As far as your main question is concerned, whether the working capital will be down. So, I don't see any possibility that our working capital, as I have explained, will remain within a period of net working capital cycle within 25 to 30 days, so it will remain so.
Okay. And it will continue to grow with the sales of PTC, right? So the working capital doesn't change?
Yes, it will be in the range of 25 to 30 days. But naturally, when the volume increases, so -- but I'll tell you that as far as the -- if the volume increases on advance -- from the advanced side because there are most customers, except the utilities, which is trading on advanced basis. So they have the option either to go to HPX or trade it through PTC.
So if the volume, let's say, assume on the exchange side and the customer is paying in advance, so it is not possible that it should be in direct proportion, let's say, it will increase by 30 days that way because you have seen for the comparison between March '21 and '22, because the volume has increased on exchange. So our net working capital cycle has gone down from 30 days to 26 days. That is only because of most of the volume has been traded on exchange.
So if it is going down so our working capital cycle may come down also. But as I'm saying, that it is expected that it will remain within a range of 26 days to 30 days.
Yes. Okay, sir. And for the working capital that you extend, for the receivables that you extend to these utilities like JKSPDC and others. So what's the typical yield on the working capital that you charge them on the receivables?
Yes. As per the agreement, whatever trading margin has stipulated that we continue to charge plus if there is any payment delay from their side, let's say, if they pay after the unit so whatever the surcharge, it is 12% or 15%, whatever surcharge is defined that we continue to receive that surcharge.
We have our next question from the line of Anshuman Ashit from ICICI Securities.
Good evening, sir. Am I audible?
Yes. Anshuman, you are. Please go ahead.
Sir, continuing on the receivables front. So as you have mentioned that J&K, from J&K, we have the highest receivable. And it's not only us who have that, NHPC also has higher receivables. So is there any discussion going on the ministerial front or with the LG regarding the liquidation of these receivables?
Yes. Anshuman, you know that now J&K is not a state, it is a union territory. And it falls under the purview of Ministry of Home Affairs and the LG is there. So we are in touch with all the authorities, both for the LG at the union territory level and at the MHA level also, we had a dialogue. So at this point of time, I can only share with you that the efforts are on. And hopefully, with the intervention of all the officials, we are going to get our [indiscernible].
Okay. Okay. Sir, the next question on HPX. So you mentioned that you launched 3 products there. Will it be possible for you to let us know which are these 3 products?
No, I can -- whatever I have gathered from them, they have gone for the [indiscernible] market, GTAM market and one more product. And so they are ready with all the other products also, but they would like to launch it in phases. So that the launching of each product should be smooth and without any hassles. So -- and the REC, renewable energy certificate is the third product. So these are the 3 products which they have launched today. And they will be launching maybe each fortnight or in a month, the rest of the products. And the entire set of the existing products they will launch first, and they are trying to come out with the innovative products.
Okay. Okay. Sir, is there any internal market share target which you have for HPX? If you can throw some light on that?
Again, I would not like to answer any question on behalf of the company. We have to keep at arm's length. And of course, when the new exchange has come, they have targets, they have strategies and they have plans to acquire larger market share. But at this point of time, it would be preferable that let them explain their strategy rather than me on behalf of the company, giving you any of the guidance or the clue. So keep waiting. And maybe at one point of time, we may ask the top leadership team to be part of these discussions so that they can share it with you what their plans
Yes. That will be helpful, sir. Sir, in the press release, sir, you have mentioned that the company is looking for opportunities in battery storage and green hydrogen. So could you throw some light on what we are planning to do on that front?
Yes. And if you see the Ministry of Power policy on green hydrogen, there is a scope for aggregators and the large traders to do the trading in -- not in terms of only electricity, but other products also. So there is -- as far as the policy is concerned, there is a good opportunity, where PTC being the largest trader in the country can play the role of aggregator, both in terms of aggregation of demand and aggregation of supply.
So keeping that in mind, we have created the core team in PTC who are trying to see it internally first. And then we have tied up with one of the international players. The Greenstat of Norway, and we have entered into MoU with them. And we are trying to see how best we can play and leverage our strength of being the largest player and play our role in this segment.
As far as the other technology is concerned, we are also looking at all the other opportunities because trading slowly is moving towards not only something which is done bilaterally on physical mode only, but there will be a lot of technology involved. And with the nearer to the dispatch market, it will be all the more important to use technology so that the benefits of the market can be passed on both to the buyer and the seller.
So keeping that in mind, we have kept it high on our agenda that we will not only try to strengthen our core business, but also try to incorporate a lot of technology issues, which we feel will be the next generation growth.
Sir, are you in discussions with some domestic players as well on this front, in terms of green hydrogen and battery storage?
What I would say that domestic players are important here. But as far as the business is concerned, of course, we had to do it with the domestic players.
For the technology, you have to have more on international players. So we have a very close watch on what -- who can contribute the most if we had to play a role in this.
Okay. And sir, finally, any guidance which you would like to give on FY '23 in terms of volumes, the volume mix and margins?
At this point of time, let me just tell you that we are doing business. The way we have conducted ourselves in the last 23 years, and we have to keep in mind the changing scenario each day because the market is something which is not stable. You have seen it in the last 2 months when there was a coal crisis, when the demand has suddenly gone up just after the COVID. And the generators were not -- were finding it difficult to supply and a lot of issues related to the meeting the demand of the DISCOMs.
So we had to keep a close watch each day. And giving that guidance at this point of time will not be proper on my side. Only thing -- one assurance I can give you that in the past, we have customized ourselves to the requirement of the market. And we are every day, in the morning, we try to see how things should be and how it needs to be done. So that we are nearer to the customer, understand their needs, and also the sellers who are the -- basically the prime mover of the power market.
So keeping ourselves connected both to the seller and buyer and understanding their need is what we can do the best and that's what the purpose is.
But sir, one thing which I guided from the remarks that you've made earlier is that the cross-border and long-term volume should definitely increase this year. Is that...
Yes. One thing is for sure that because of COVID, I mean, the uncertainty was there in demand. And the short -- the long-term contracts were not getting supplied or implemented in the previous year because of so many reasons. This year, we are trying our best so that we can increase the offtake from the PPAs. But again, there are some limitations, as I told that because of the coal supply and all, again, these long-term PPAs may get affected.
So at this point of time, I can only say that we are closing -- keeping a very close watch on the fuel supply, the demand, the increase and the market prices because the market prices also have seen some aberrations in recent past. We had to keep a close watch on everything, and then we are doing our business.
Thank you. We have the next question from the line of Sunny Khurana, an individual investor.
Good afternoon, sir. So I have 2 specific questions. One, I wanted to know from you that the 50% payout policy that you have right now on the earnings, do you expect to increase this over time as our fundamental trading business does not need as much capital really, right? So what are the thoughts around that?
I think if you go through our policy, dividend declaration policy, it says minimum 50. And I believe we have again said when there is a clear words written that there is some minimum 50, I need not reconsider it. I think it's a board-approved policy. And in so many words, it speaks about our understanding that we try to keep it minimum 50. But beyond that, the Board can always take a call and the AGM can approve that.
Got it. So that's very helpful. Sir, second question is that as management, do you -- does the management look at the company's share price because that obviously is a key award for the investors basically. And if so, what are the steps you as management are thinking of taking to -- I think, for lack of a better word to have the company be valued more fairly, right?
And I think maybe the -- just a second question to that, sir, I noticed that there are no further ESOP that have been granted off late. Is there a plan that's been put forward for some kind of ESOP for the management. So there is even further tighter alignment between shareholders and management on the company going forward.
We don't have such policy at this point of time. And as far as the market movement or the Sensex movement is concerned or the price movement of the share is concerned, it is always a demand supply requirement. And we all can say that we like to ensure and do a good business, and we expect that the market will take us seriously when we do a good business, and that's the [indiscernible].
So we have a few more text questions lined up. So we'll take the next text question that is from the line of Rupesh Sankhe from Elara. One in our long-term PPA portfolio what MW size is expiring in the next 5 to 10 years? Two, can we expect our share in IEX volume, which currently 25% to 26% to get devoted in our exchange platform?
As far as the long-term PPAs are concerned, that is for 25 years, so nothing is going to expire in the near future. That's what I can say because it's a long term as the word says, is for a long-duration contract, and it's not going to expand.
As far as shifting IEX volume to any other exchange, we have always maintained that we would like to do as they are core trading business on its merit. And the best exchange, which can do good service to our clients, will be always given a preference.
Thank you.
Aman, we have time for only last 2 questions left now.
Sure, Sir. We'll take the next text question from Vikas Gupta as an individual investor. Any plans to sell the stake in PFS?
We have always maintained that last time, we have taken a Board decision that it will be kept on hold for some time because of the uncertainty in the market. And at this point of time, we still feel that it's not the right time to go to the market to sell it. But as and when it comes, certainly, we are open because that's a noncore business for us and that we have shared with the investors earlier. So as and when we feel that we would like to divest, we'll share it with the investors and the analysts.
The last next question that is from the line of Sachin A as an individual investor. Ministry of Power announced a scheme recently on freeze of late payment surcharge to support DISCOMs, how will it impact the PTC?
As far as the late payment surcharge policy of the government of India, we need some more clarification on that. That is more for a generator to DISCOM supply. And as far as our bilateral contracts are there, it's a contract between 2 parties on a bilateral basis. So we need to understand it better before I give a clear answer to this. But at this point of time, we generally believe that the PPA PSAs need to be honored for any of the clauses applicable in the PPA.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, that would be our last question for today. I now hand the conference back to Mr. Sushant Chaturvedi for closing comments. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
So thank you very much, everyone, for participating in this Q4 earnings conference call. Thank you for engaging with us. I hope we were able to answer most of your questions to the best of your satisfaction. In case some questions are left unanswered, you may kindly get in touch with us directly or write to us. we'll try our best to answer them to the best of our ability. We look forward to engaging further with you and look forward to physically meeting with most of you in Mumbai very soon. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of PTC India Limited, that concludes today's session. Thank you for your participation. You may now click on the exit meeting to disconnect.