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PSP Projects Ltd
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Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Q4 FY '23 and FY '23 Earnings Conference Call of PSP Projects Limited hosted by AMBIT Capital. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded.
I now hand the conference over to Mr. Amar Kedia from AMBIT Capital. Thank you, and over to you, Mr. Kedia.
Thanks, Michelle. Good afternoon, everyone. And welcome to the 4Q FY '23 earnings concall of PSP Projects. We have the management today being represented by Mr. P.S. Patel, Chairman and MD and CEO; and Ms. Hetal Patel, CFO of the company.
I will now hand over the call to the management for their opening remarks, post which we will open up the floor for the Q&A. Over to you, Kenan.
Thank you, Amar. Good evening, everyone. On behalf of the management, I'm pleased to welcome you all to the PSP Projects earnings call to discuss Q4 FY '23 and FY '23 results. Please note, a copy of follower disclosures is available in the Investors section of our website as well as on all the stock exchanges. Anything said on this call, which reflects our outlook for future or which could be construed as a forward-looking statement, must be reviewed in conjunction with the risk that the company faces.
Now I shall hand over the call to our MD for his opening remarks. Over to you, sir.
Thank you, Kenan. Good evening, everyone. A warm welcome to all of you, and thank you for joining us on our quarter 4 and full year earnings conference call. I trust everyone is doing well and is in best of health. We did upload the investors presentation with the 3 quarter and year highlights from the stock exchange and website. I believe you may have got a chance to go through the same.
First, I would like to discuss the key project level development during the year. Financial year 2023 has been a memorable year for the company for the processive of addition of highest ever order inflow and for being eligible for bidding for higher value projects up to INR 2,500 crores single project. This is a big milestone for the company in its 15 years of operation. Going forward, we expect to leverage this opportunity and make inroads and establish our firm presence in high value-added niche projects.
Also post completion of our first ever project of Kashi Vishwanath Dham in Uttar Pradesh, we have received projects worth more than INR 1,500 in the different state as on today, comprising nearly 60% of our -- all of our government projects in all. This has provided opportunity for the company's outside and home state.
To explain in detail during quarter FY '23, the company has recorded highest ever order inflow to the tune of INR 3,421 crores, excluding GST, recording a growth of 19% over FY '22 Majority of the projects awarded during the year are of the state of Gujarat, and [ 58% ] of the project being private orders. The major projects awarded during the year are as below: Construction of state-of-the-art high-rise corporate building of Surat Municipal Corporation; Corporate office building projects by leading multinational companies, 3 tallest residential projects in Ahmedabad and [indiscernible] recently permitted the government authorities we have been advantage position to take these orders having proven in tax record in the construction of high-rise building space. Ahmedabad airport development, recent industrial order to construct Phase 2 and 3 of the noodle, and chocolate factory by multinational companies. Construction of institutional campus in Ahmedabad for a leading Mumbai-based management institutes and some Precast order for National High Speed Rail project L&T.
In FY '23, the company has outstanding order book of INR 5,052 crores as 1 year-to-date, we have received further orders INR 758 crores thereby adding to our new order book. I would like to highlight here that on this quarter onwards, we have removed our 2 slow-moving projects of Pandharpur and Bhiwandi on the order book whose total value amounted to [ INR 727 and INR 31 crores ]. The outstanding order book as on date has grown by 40% over FY '22, excluding Pandharpur and Bhiwandi projects. As far as the status of the projects is concerned for Pandharpur, the client has accepted the deal on their part and ask us to resume the work. However, we were primarily refused to restart the work. We'll restart the project until early we receive our outstanding dues. The status of Bhiwandi [indiscernible] panel of arbitration has been appointed, and necessary documents have been provided.
Now let's discuss on the financial performance of the company. During FY '23, the major ongoing projects are at the initial stage of construction that comprises of core and shell, expansion [indiscernible], whereas the fourth in terms of labor [indiscernible] is higher in comparison to the revenue book. In our nature of work, as the project enters [indiscernible] or interim phase, the revenue booking improved. During this year, more than 50% of our order book was at the initial stage of construction, and none of the EPC or large projects were getting completed during this year. This has largely led to a lower-than-expected revenue growth and margin contraction during the quarter and full year.
In FY '23, the revenue of the company grown by 10% against the guidance growth rate of 20% to 25%. We expect to complete the revenue backlog of this year, and we continue with our earlier guided revenue the projection of INR 2,600 for FY '24, which is as per our original guidance of 20% to 25% growth year-on-year growth. We maintain our EBITDA margin guidance still in the range of 11% to 13%.
Let me keep to take us through the key developments of UP projects now. During quarter 4 FY '23, the revenue book from all 7 UP project is in the tune of INR 301 crores. And as on date, the revenue booked is INR 718 crores. The structure of the building is getting completed, and some of the projects in early phase already started, and [indiscernible] has also begun simultaneously. The execution is expected to ramp up during H1 FY '24. Two projects, which is Sultanpur and Sonbhadra are lagging a little bit because the land acquisition for the hospital buildings both the sites was given to us a little bit later than general other 5 projects are given. So that project's extension of time limit is given as December for Sultanpur and March '24 for Sonbhadra. The rest of all the other 5 projects we are going to completed by October 2023.
On the Precast side, we started Precast with the objectives to cater to the requirement from semi-construction building segment. But on the contrary, we have seen reasonably good orders and demand coming from the infrastructure side as well. Considering order book from industrial as well as construction type, the board made a decision to exit existing Precast facility. Also in many of our existing projects, the company has started supplying certain materials through Precast facility, which has helped us to achieve faster execution and aid us in maintaining the quality as well as [ bill ] of bidding.
During the year, we received a Safety Award from National Safety Council of India and recognition for appreciable achievement in Occupational Safety & Health during the year 2021. We as PSP Projects have optimum focus on quality and timely completion of the project. I am pleased to inform my stakeholders that the company has been able to leverage on philosophy and been able to deliver quality projects within the time line. Here, I will take an opportunity to [indiscernible] thanks PSP Projects family and entire team for believe in our philosophy and working in a synchronized fashion for us to deliver quality projects to our customers.
The evidence -- this is evident from the repeat orders that we receive on a regular basis from many of our private companies' projects. Company has completed 205 projects so far since company the inception in 2008 with 84% private projects consisting of institutional, industrial and residential projects, and balance 16% as government projects cleanup. As on FY '23, out of outstanding order book of INR 5,052 crores, the government project completed comprises of 56%, and private project comprises of 44%, comprising of -- this comprises again of institutional, industrial and residential project. As on date, we have 47 ongoing projects, of which, 74% is based in Gujarat, and 26% is based in UP.
Big pipeline. Going forward, we have pipeline of approximately INR 6,000 crores, of which 67% is from private projects and around 20% is from the state of the Gujarat. The International Monetary Fund on IMF said that the Indian economy growing against the global headwinds and is expected to do well. India is expected to maintain its position as one of the fastest-growing economies in the world in FY '24, and this puts India in a bright spot. In FY '23, we saw good increase in investment announcement at the private sector. A feature in private CapEx during-- adding into India's growth story. We, at PSP Projects, are confident and positive for the growth in our business segment also.
With this, I conclude my remarks, and now I would like to hand over the call to Ms. Hetal Patel to take us through the financials in details. Hetal?
Thank you, sir. Good evening, everyone. The financial performance during the quarter ended March 31, 2023. As a stand-alone basis are as follows. Quarter 4 FY '23 versus quarter 4 FY '22. Revenue from operations for the quarter is at INR 727 crores versus INR 555 crores, which has increased by 31% on a Y-o-Y basis. EBITDA for the quarter is at INR 78 crores versus INR 88 crores, which is lower by 12% on a Y-o-Y basis. EBITDA margin is at 10.67% versus 15.87%. Net profit margin for the quarter is INR 46 crores versus INR 52 crores, which has lower by 12% on Y-o-Y. PAT margin is at 6.3% versus 9.4%.
We'll brief about the full year figure FY '23 versus FY '22. Revenue from operations for the year is at INR 1,927 crores versus INR 1,749 crores for FY '22, which has increased by 10%. EBITDA for the year is at INR 225 crores versus INR 257 crores, which is lower by 12%. EBITDA margin is at 11.68% versus 14.67%. Net profit for the year is INR 133 crores versus INR 161 crores, which is lower by 17%. PAT margin is at 6.81% versus 9.10%.
As informed by P.S. sir, in FY '23, majority of the projects were under initial stage of execution as company's order inflow of FY '23, which was INR 3,421 crores against order inflow of FY '22 INR 1,803 crores. For this FY '22 revenue comprised of revenues from major projects like Surat, SDB, Kashi and BSE, which were at the finishing stage, having higher profit margins. And no such major projects were completed during FY '23, which can be the major reason for lower EBITDA margin compared to FY '22.
Increase in employee expenses mainly due to increase in employee strength from 1,345 employees as on 31st March '22 versus 1,883 employees as on 31 March '23. The increase in finance costs during the year can be attributable to increasing utilization fund-based limits, increase in interest rates and issuance of bank guarantees for newly-awarded projects. Increase in depreciation can be attributable to addition in fixed assets during the year, which amounted to INR 72 crores for the year. The CWIP balance in the balance sheet of INR 17.7 crores is towards the exemption of Precast facility to meet requirements of new orders.
I would like to mention a few of the important balance sheet numbers as of 31st March '23. Long-term borrowings, INR 70 crores. Short-term borrowing, INR 75. Gross block of assets, INR 413 crores and net block of assets INR 238 crores. Addition during the year, INR 72 crores, which includes the purchase of capital assets from new sites. Net amount due to customers that is advanced billing amounts to INR 78 crores. Net unbilled revenue of INR 257 crores. Retention noncurrent INR 111 crores. Retention current, INR 34 crores. Mobilization advance stands at INR 245 crores. We mentioned about the working capital days. Data days are 82; creditor days are 70; and inventory days are 29. Total net working capital days are 41. Increase in inventory trade receivable are in line with the increase in sales in quarter 4 FY '23 and increased order inflow during the last 2 quarter.
Out of total credit facility of INR 1,047 crores, the company has utilized INR 897 crores, of which INR 74 crores are funded utilization and INR 823 crore is non-fund utilization. As on 31st March '23, the company has total fixed deposit of INR 331 crores, out of which 3 deposits are INR 76 crores and [indiscernible] INR 255 crores are under lien with bank for credit facilities. Work on hand, as on 31 March '23 is INR 5,052 crores, and detailed [indiscernible] is available on the uploaded presentation.
This concludes the update on financials, and we are now open for question and answer. Thank you.
[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Bharani Vijayakumar from Spark Capital.
Am I audible?
Yes.
So can you give more color on this INR 6,000 crores of big pipeline? What are the segments or subsegments in which you see this pipeline? Since you're mentioning 60% of it is in private, does it come through competitive bidding or through a negotiated bidding? And do you expect these projects to come in at a little higher margins than what we did as margins in FY '23?
The bid pipeline, what I said about is about approximately INR 6,000 crores. So there are 11 project in [indiscernible] Mumbai, which each [indiscernible] MP Chambers Central Vista that is in Dehli, which is INR 2,500 crores; MP Chambers Vista that is INR 1,200 crores; the residential project at Ahmedabad, INR 450 crores; IT Park in Chennai, which is INR 400 crores; government office in Odisha that is INR 400 crores; one private club in Chennai, which is INR 300 crores, commercial building in Ahmedabad, which is INR 300 crores; the [indiscernible], which is again INR 300; the 1, [indiscernible] we have already received over the last week only, residential in [indiscernible] INR 100 crores. So this totals to about INR 6,000 crores. As you asked for me for the margins because it is going to again come with the competition, and we're competition we tender only. But yes, I can tell you that much that there will be in the line with what we have been doing until now.
Okay. And in the pipeline that you just mentioned that there are a fair bit of residential projects. So in the strategy, is it like we would take advantage of the new launches by residential developers that's ongoing. Is that strategic event that we are seeing?
Most of the residential or commercial projects, which I thought, this was only based on the core and shell part. See what has happened, the permission for 30 storey plus up to 35 storey has been given in the state of Ahmedabad or in state of Gujarat last year only. So any developer who wanting to go for a high-rise building of plus of 30 storey, we are only one of the person we have carried out work of 30 storey plus in big city. So there are such types of inquiry and that inquiry is selling because of our credentials and what we have delivered now in terms of high-rise building.
Okay. So coming to the cost structure, so what percentage of our order book has fixed price kind of agreement? And what percentage has passed through? Because this FY '23, we saw decrease in margins and then the market.
[ I don't see ] there decrease in margins as what already -- actually has been cleared that, that is because of the whole year we were carrying on the projects, which was more on core and shell. Last year, if you compare the balance sheet which we have, the profit margin was much higher because our large price project of Surat Diamond Bourse, Kashi Vishwanath, Mumbai [indiscernible]. All these 3-project closed at the end of the March '22. And that was the reason that, as I said, when you are being a lump sum contract, most of the milestone payments are recognized at the end of the project. So that was the major reason. And in this year also, whatever which we have missed in, which I was expecting to be completed before March, but some of the other reasons we are getting delayed in UP. So that revenue is going to come in the first 2 quarters of this year.
I think there won't be any problem in terms of margins with us because it was a lump sum contract are in [indiscernible] project. It is [indiscernible] on what level of execution is going on or what type of execution is ongoing on each of the projects. If you compare right from March '22 to 23, this whole 12 months, you must see that most of the projects depends, some of [indiscernible] started in April. And then whatever projects which we have started each and every project even core and shell. And as I said, there are 2 projects which have got delayed in UP also, which was also because of the land available -- land was given to us a little bit late than the other 5 projects. So it is not only about lump sum projects are getting hampered in terms of net profit.
Understood. So what you are telling is because of the nature of work, that is primarily related to...
Which is going on [indiscernible] yes, yes.
Okay. But just to get the number, which is basically a percentage of order book which it pass-through, that will be helpful.
I exactly don't have that number. But the large project, which I said about [ 1300 ] and [ 1500 ]. Out of [ 5,000 ] that must be 50-50. 50 will be item rate. 60% is item rate, and rest of the 33% is lump sum.
And item rate contracts have pass-throughs?
Yes. That is pass through. Yes.
The next question is from the line of Shravan Shah from Dolat Capital.
Sir, just again, trying to have on the same thing in terms of the margin and the revenue. Though we said that the projects were at initial stage, and that's why the margin were lower versus which was not the case. But sir, in the last concall, we should be aware about these things. I know we were looking at close to INR 900 crores kind of a revenue in the fourth quarter, and we have done INR 727 crores. So just trying to understand in terms of the confidence that we are still giving a INR 2,600 crore revenue guidance for FY '24. Again, wanting to understand how much delay can happen in this number. So what's the risk in this number? .
[indiscernible] absolutely right that the commitment which I gave was near to INR 900 crores, and we have reached INR 723 crores only. But the point here, it was something which we have learned also. Previous few years, we were having a large project of Surat Diamond Bourse that was at a single location with more than INR 1,575 or more INR 1,800 crores project at one location. This was a INR 1,600 crore project all-in-all in UP, which comprises of 7 projects, which again goes to 14 sites. So that has given a little bit pain to us in terms of execution and managing this in 14 locations. And as I've already been saying since last 1 year, there are 2 issues related to consistency of ability of labor. There is a few issues related to getting the approval of the [indiscernible]. Since these are all government projects and when there is a lump-sum project, you can understand that the government are taking too much time in approving the things because it's not an item rate contract.
So there are 2 things which has happened. And again, I would say that we have learned from this thing that we should be committing to things which is possible. And now whatever figure, which I am saying would be achievable, and that's the confidence which I will do it. Because again and again, we can't fail in terms of our words what we have been doing until now in the last 6, 7 years.
Okay. Got it. That's helpful. Second thing is just wanted to understand these 2 UP projects where there is a delay Sultanpur and Sonbhadra. So what is the value of that project, particularly 2 projects?
Those 2 projects are in the range of INR 250 to INR 275. And that these 2 projects, I am saying is only the medical college part. So it will be 50-50. So you can say the overall project value for both the hospital building will be in the range INR 250 crores.
Okay. Got it. Got it. And then Surat Municipal project, I can see we have done close to INR 69-odd crore revenue in this quarter. So there...
Mr. Shah, there is a background disturbance from your line.
I'm using handset. Is it fine?
Sir, it's not about handset. There is a background disturbance. There is a lot of distance behind your back.
There is nothing like that. Maybe a network issue. Sir, on Surat Municipal Corporation, I just wanted to further understand last time, we said INR 300 crores, INR 350 crores kind of revenue. So this quarter already, we have started the execution of INR 69 crores. So that should be a doable INR 300 crores, INR 350 crores revenue in FY '24. .
Yes, we should be -- we have planned accordingly, and we should be able to reach that for this year also INR 300 crores.
Okay. And in terms of the order inflows of already INR 700 crores, plus we have received. So 2 clarity needed. First, is one INR 350 crore, INR 345 crores, L! was there Gujarat Tourism project. So is it still L1 it will be converted? And what kind of total order inflow we are looking for this year?
We asked about it, the day before yesterday only I think we have said that order has been converted. That L1 flows has been converted into order. So we have already received that order. And the big pipeline which I think [indiscernible] package 2. That package one we are already received and package 2, we are bidding. All in all, it is INR 1,200 crores investment on the government side, divided into 3 packages. Out of that one, first part is already given to us, and second part we are building.
So overall projection, again, I would say whatever reason we are going to generate that is INR 2,600 crore. We can consider 25% more than the revenue what we are doing too much in this year. So that will be in the range of INR 3,000 plus.
Okay. Got it. And in terms of the working capital, I understand that, net-net or number of days still is at what was there in December. So slightly lower at 41 days. But still on a yearly basis, the number has slightly increased. So particularly on the data base. So last time also, we said post to December, we have received some money. So this time, again, is the same case that as of March, there was later post March, we have received the money, so that's why the data base is on the higher side. So will there is a possibility of the overall 14 days can reduce to 30, 32 days?
Yes, we can say. Because as we said, we have already received out of 31st March outstanding. From UP itself, we have received around 100 CS and other projects also repeat on this. So it happens like within 1 month or 1 or 2 months, we are receiving on March outstanding is there. So it may be streamline to 32, 35 days.
Sir, the participant has left the queue. We move on to the next question, which is from the line of Ash Shah from Elara Capital.
Am I audible?
Yes. .
Yes. So I have one question. So we -- in the capital work in progress that ma'am mentioned that INR 17 crores is towards Precast facility. So are we like moving on to the Phase 2? And if yes, then how much capacity addition will that be? I mean we are already doing 1 million, if I'm not mistaken. So can you just throw some light on that?
Yes. As I said that precast facility was created with a view to start on buildings and industries and buildings and warehousing. But later on, when we started off, there are redeployments, which is coming up on the infrastructure side. The largest order, which we received was from L&T as bullet train to supply of these data, ducts and electric bus. Same way, there is a huge requirement for infrastructure in terms of storm water drainage which you're mostly seeing along the parallel, parallel to the road side, road on both the sides.
So both sides of things are now getting compulsory at the government level. So we thought of making one more sale so that at least our building, the precast building facility is not hampered by doing both the infrastructure [indiscernible] As the infrastructure reserves only the space for putting the molds whereas the building requires all types of machinery and all types of molds, which has already been installed in the first plant. So to capture more orders on the infrastructure side, we have created this initiative.
And if you could just give us the revenue that we have incurred from precast facility for FY '23 and margins if possible.
See, last year, I think we were -- actually, we are not able to exactly see that what is the reason it will be generated, but the figures for the deals and some of the things which we have done for captive, it was in the range of INR 75 crores to INR 80 crores. And this year also what the order which we are executing, giving the range of INR 200 plus crore or maybe INR 250, that the orders which we are planning to execute this year, which is only an outside order related to infrastructure and building.
And last question, if I see your L&T project that has been stuck at INR 195 crores only for the last 3 quarters. Is there any delay in that, if you could just throw some light on that?
Because this facility was created only for L&T to start with that, so we have already started beginning the project. Yes, it is a little bit 45 to 60 days delay, but that was usually because of the molds, which were -- they are compulsory to be bought imported. That molds, was an average as in the L&T that they require an imported mold, and the delivery of the mold has been delayed by 1 month. So that overall delivery of the product is delayed by 45 days. So probably that we will report by working 24 hours, and there won't be any problem at the end of the day, at the end of the project.
The next question is from the line of Dhananjay Mishra from Sunidhi Securities & Finance.
Yes. So we have already utilized INR 897 crores of the fund limit, so and we have INR 1,047 crores. So when we talk about INR 2,500 crores or INR 2,500 crore revenue this year, so do you expect this limit will increase, I mean, limit will increase? Or it is enough for to do that INR 2,500 crores?
Yes. For that, we have already applied in the bank, and we have received the assessment note, and our lead bank has already approved a further extension of INR 450 crores. So we are in the process of tying up with the bank. So it may -- will be over by [indiscernible].
So do you expect this INR 450 crores, you will get the next 2 months?
Yes, 1 month or the 2 month next, yes.
Okay. And this UP Medical College, the remaining INR 770 crore, we will complete in FY '24 itself or partly some part will?
Yes. Only the project of Sonbhadra, which was given as an extension primarily by up to April 2024. Rest of all of the projects will be completed with the bank.
Okay. So Sonbhadra, what part will be left, about INR 100 crores?
The hospital building only and that will be also at the last finishing stage. So not much in terms of revenue will be left up. But as the extension of timing is given on the April 30, 2024. So I'm saying it will be the one part may go beyond that FY '24. The rest of all the work, this will be completed by FY '24.
And out of this INR 5,000 crores, we are activating all the projects? Or is the begin limit for all projects that we have now?
Yes, we are executing all INR 5,000 crores projects are under [ upgradation ].
So any project is not left for and not awaiting by the limit?
No, no, no. I think every project...
Yes, we have spare limits of around INR 100 crores. So as of today, these numbers are as of 31st March. So we hope that...
[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Devang Patel from Sameeksha Capital.
Sir, I wanted to check off for Surat Diamond Bourse, we've received the final certificate, and we are now eligible to bid for Central Vista. And on Central Vista, you mentioned INR 1,200 crore project. But generally, what kind of opportunities for the next 2 years in packages, sizes do we expect to come up?
Yes, we have already received working completion on Surat Diamond Bourse. And based on the certificate only, we have bidded for the [indiscernible], where we are will be getting 25. But yes, the process of requalification is all. And as we have got that certificate, we will be able in position to bid for projects of size of more than 2000.
Sir, what kind of packages do you expect to come for Central Vista?
In earning Central Vista, we can't the analysis on about type of packages it will come, but it is in the range of INR 750 to INR 1,500 crores that is its minimum. And on the large side, it can go up to 2,000 single package or 3,000 single package or we hope given to L&T for 3 secretariat building. If they come up with secretariat building now is still in the range of INR 2,000 crores. But that's the packages size, we are not able to annotate there, it's because absolutely a government [indiscernible].
Sir, my question was more like what kind of opportunity size will come up for us in the next 1, 2 years.
That I say if the project size is up to INR 2,500 crores, we'll be able to bid. And if the project sizes are beyond INR 3,000 crores, we may not get qualified for INR 3,000 crore package. But up to INR 2,500 crores such at INR 500 crore that is any, which is coming up in Central Vista. We able to bid something.
Okay, sir, secondly, on precast, you said you've given some details earlier. I wanted to understand what kind of CapEx we need to do now, which will give us what peak revenue after that, how much will be internal consumption?
Actually, internal consumption is not something which we built for like a precast projects. It is usually as and when required, depending on the client diligency to get some work done through precast. Otherwise, it is very difficult to analysis on attrition projects to be converted into precast. But as far as the precast market is concerned, after doing these warehousing facilities for [indiscernible]. We have already received a more order of -- we are already in discussion of 3 or 4 more orders of that in January in and around Ahmedabad.
So -- and there is also the inquiries of this some water drainage that's, which is coming up in the GIDCs and general [ loan ] project, which we are already doing as a data duct electrical duct for building L&T. So this is something now the market is picking up. Now people are understanding how fast precast can be done. We are also doing 1 building of round of 7 in Ahmedabad. Once that building is ready, we are hoping that there will be 2 inquiries on building projects.
You mentioned taking Board approval so that envisages how much CapEx and revenue potential.
Yes, I think we have planned for about addition of INR 45 crore of CapEx in that part. So out of the [ INR 17 crore ] has already been booked in this year. The rest of the things will come in -- INR 25 crores to INR 30 crores will come in the next few quarters.
All right. Sir, lastly, did you -- I hear correctly that inflow for next year, you're saying will be more than INR 3,000 crores.
Yes.
The next question is from the line of Navid Virani from Bastian Research. .
Am l audible?
Speak a little louder.
Yes. So firstly, congratulations for registering such a strong order inflow this year. So firstly, I wanted to understand regarding the industry. So there is a lot of data points coming out saying that the infra opportunity in India currently is no larger than ever. So just wanted to understand from you as to how is the industry looking at this point compared to, say, 3 to 4 years before. So if you can quantify, say, X number of projects on average were up [ INR 4 million ], say, 3, 4 years back, which has climbed up to say a larger number because of the infra opportunity which India currently provides.
Yes. So the market has strengthened. Our order last year's order book when we are using mostly all the order from Gujarat. That itself speaks about the economical growth of Gujarat and economical growth of India when we talk about us. So many medical project coming up all over India because the government has decided to go all medical colleges in India. All the districts should have one medical college. All metro city should -- all major states should have these aims. IIT is also coming up.
So on education and health, they are already deciding on spending so much money. And as far as CapEx related to private organizations, we have been working with so many private organizations and private companies. The repeat order of the single [indiscernible] speaks about that there will be a huge recon and a huge CapEx spending and private corporate as we are doing for these SRs also. That is the ArcelorMittal plant expansion, where there are 3 or 4 contacts as back to some of it.
But as far the overall inquiry level and the present pipeline at INR 6,000 crores, you can easily identify the level of inquiries and the level of development which is coming down. So I would say that if you compare 3, 4 years back, there was no such a huge inquiry in terms of private or government, but now we can see that both delivered, from government and private were a huge inquiry. And the same thing has happened in the real estate sector also there are large inquires coming up. And there is a redevelopment, as we said, the redevelopment of our private projects or redevelopment of government buildings. That's also going to be a big amount of that in the next 2 or 3 years.
Secondly, I wanted to understand that during this year, the CFO or the cash flow from operations this year, that some out could be slightly weak. So can you explain what plays in this pressure and what going forward should be the conversion rate if you can give some guidance over there?
Yes. If you just go through the cash flow from operations compared to previous year figures, so it has come down mainly due to increase in receivables and increase in other assets, which mainly comprises of like amount due to these from customers and then retention money. So even inventories has also increased. So this all has resulted because the majority of new orders as INR 3,000 crores of which orders we have started during the year. Because of that the cash flow is -- compared to previous year, and also in infrastructure expenses incured for all these new projects.
Okay. So will it be fair to assume that the cash flow run rate going forward will improve compared to this?
Yes, it will [indiscernible] over the period.
The next question is from the line of Ash Shah from Elara Capital.
So I had a question on the Bhiwandi and Pandharpur project. So you said Bhiwandi there is the arbitration going on, the arbitration has been started. So can we expect any date and time line for the same? And how much amount are we claiming for in the arbitration?
The amount is not -- we can't declare what is the amount which we have claimed for. But yes, we will be recovering over all the losses, which we have declared and which we are like already booking in books also. So it will be -- our all losses will be refund that claim as we have made for Bhiwandi. As far as time line is concerned, again, there is a law regarding arbitration law, wherein government is pushing each and every arbitration to end by one year.
So let us hope that it should be considered in this one year only. As such, our plan is claim is not based on some technical criteria or that the building has been done and some technical issues. It is fairly based on the issuance of the land. So probably, it should close a little bit early than the what general arbitration maintains. It take -- usually takes time.
And how much losses have we booked until now for Bhiwandi?
Yes, we have booked around INR 9.5 crores.
Okay. And coming on to the Pandharpur projects, so the client, how much...
As I've already given in opening statement, that project there as starting up with the view that we invest further more. So that the project is completed, and they are able to sell it to the people. But as a listed company, we are not -- we were a contractor, we were not the investor. So we have asked them not, we can't go putting up more money than we already have a view of more than INR 16 crores. So they have to decide what -- how they are going to pay, and we have refused to continue by putting up more.
Is there any chance that we can have this project back online after a quarter or 2 or there should...?
Yes, it will soon like this, we will again go into arbitration, but it's same on the same reasons what we have done in Bhiwandi.
Okay. And what will be the CapEx number for FY '24, apart from precast?
I believe the range of 3% to 4%, which usually are the right figure for us. So whatever reason we make, we can say it is even the range of INR 70 to INR 80.
The next question is from the line of Nikhil Kanodia from HDFC Securities Limited.
Am I audible?
Yes.
Yes.
Sir, first of all, congratulations on the highest ever order inflow. And sir, pardon me, if I would have missed your guidance on the revenue front margin front and the inflow front. So can you please repeat that?
Revenue, I said about INR 2,600 crores. As far as EBITDA and the margin will be in the same range, EBITDA will be in 0% to 13%. And as far as the projection of inflow of order, we should target from INR 3,000.
INR 3,000-plus crores of order inflows are guiding, right?
Yes, yes.
The next question is from the line of Uttham Kumar Srimal from Axis Securities Limited.
My question is to Madam. Ma'am, our long-term base has increased from INR 17 crores last year to INR 38 crore this year. So are you expecting more increase in the long-term base? Or is it even the same?
No, no, we will not be expecting any further long-term base. This is mainly for us to contribute to the precast addition and a few frames and other editing equipment.
Okay. As far as last quarter increasing, it was INR 9.2 crores. So we expect same run rate going forward also?
Partially inflow? Sorry, I could not get your question.
Yes, in case total increasing last quarter was INR 9.2 crores. So that run rate will go in the following quarters also as an amount?
You're talking about financial expense, finance expense?
Yes, yes. Finance. Yes, yes, madam...
Same date.
The next question is from the line of Rajat Setiya from IMS.
Sir, first question is about Central Vista. So are you seeing -- do you expect margins in Central Vista to be similar to your overall guidance that you 11% to 13%?
It is a general building at which we usually try to amend off what are the cost and what are the [indiscernible] which we incurred in a last project. So the margin category remains the same as far as our bidding criteria remains the same.
So if you talk about because of Central Vista margin that are little bit less or margins are a little bit high because it's a Central Vista. So it depends on the expense side and the complexity of the project. We calculate our overhead profit, so that brings in the same guideline that we have been doing in now.
Okay. And how many players -- how many competitors were there in Central Vista that we have bid for?
Presently, now, if we talk about project sizes, more than INR 750 crores, INR 2,000 crores, I think we'll see 4 or 5.
4 or 5 players.
Yes.
Okay, okay. And you said out of INR 1,200 crores is the project that you have bidded, there are 3 packages and 1 you have already refused. Is that correct understanding?
Yes. That is on the double project package. There is a development on the tourism side. There is a sports activity side, which is going to be developed on this dam site of [ Daruy ]. And on the downstream, there will be resorts and other activities for the [indiscernible]. So there is 3 package, which is coming up on package 1, 2 and 3. Total investment with 1 has already declared is INR 1,300 crores. So first package, we've both, the second we are bidding. And third, we can begin maybe 2 or 3 months.
Okay. And sir, of the bid pipeline that we have, what is the -- how is the share of industrial and residential in that? Is it higher than our...
What is the percentage, but we can let you know if you ask the first question to me. I don't know the ready percentage. Out of the INR 6,000 crores, what is the percentage for each, I don't know.
So not in general, how are you seeing the activity in the real estate and the industrial side? Are the orders or the demand picking up there? Or do you think it's still...
It is, again, a question to which people can't admitted or predict on anything because there are few assumptions which is coming from corporate. There are a few projects which is coming and of the government, which comes on gradual routines. There are few developers soon after completing a one small project or other project, they come up with a large company. So this is again depending on the analysis of data available on the site, like infrastructure investment of government. So when we are working on private sector, building datas are not available on the each and every government site that is that being considered for the budget.
Sure, sure. And sir, how much retention money release do we expect in the next 12 to 18 months?
We have calculated around INR 34 crores in current retention money. So we expect that to be the case.
Or the current one. Exactly. Okay. And noncurrent of that, how much do we expect in the next year all of it or just some part of it?
[INR 120 crores], which may come up over the 2 years, 3 years, next year.
Okay. And in terms of the finance goals that we had in this quarter, so last quarter, we did somewhere around INR 500 crores in sales, and our finance cost was around INR 10 crores. In this quarter, we did INR 730 crores of sales, and our finance cost was INR 9 crores. If you can help me understand, I mean, despite the higher execution on a higher side, finance cost is the same.
Last quarter, we utilized the funding facilities on a higher side. And this quarter, it was around lower side because we have received mobilization advances from major new customers.
Okay. So we didn't have to use the working capital units, right?
Yes.
Understood. And the 2 delayed projects that you mentioned in UP, now they're back on track, right?
Yes, it has already been on track since last 8 to 9 months. Only the position of the land at the initial stage of delayed revenue.
Right. And sir, one final question about other income. We have been reporting somewhere around INR 5 crores to INR 8 crores over in the late quarter. Is this something that is [ INR 20 crore, INR 30 crore] nature of the business? Or is it noncore in nature? How is it? What is it?
Yes. Yes, You're talking about other income, right?
Other income, yes. What is the nature of it? What is it?
Over a period of -- during this year, the equity interest has increased. So even actually has also slightly increased compared to the previous year. And at the same time, that interest rate has increased. So that can be the reason for increasing other income, and we have like some of the mobilization given to our subcontractors. So we are getting interest from them also.
Understood. And whatever mobilization had one that interest on mobilizing advance that we pay to our customers that is recorded in the other expense.
Yes. That is in finance cost.
Can we give one question as a last question for the call or anybody else want to know more about out of the 3 or 4 people. Can you ask anybody else want to ask a new question. Or then otherwise, we see one person as the last question of the call.
I hope the participants have heard the management, please come up with a new question. Sir, can we take the next question now?
Yes, yes.
Okay. The next question is from the line of Shravan Shah from Dolat Capital.
Sir, in bid pipeline, we have already mentioned the projects. Just wanted to understand, are we have started looking at any other state where we want to go so from Gujarat, Maharashtra, UP or Delhi, any other state, are we looking at?
It is not about how we are looking about any state. It is always about the opportunity and the type of competition, which I've been telling since long. Whenever we ask for a new state, we always try to see what type of work. It is worth able of competition it will be but the project. But yes, whenever we have large projects outside Gujarat, we usually try to maintain that the size of the projects would be substantial so that we can have a justified expense on the infrastructure side and the management side. If the project is small, it will not work for us. But yes, if we did a large purpose, we will bid for that project. And in this bid pipeline, only there are 2 projects, which is are out of state, rest of the other project pipeline, Gujarat only.
Okay. And this [indiscernible] project, it's INR 2,500 crores or INR 1,200 crores
It is INR 1,000.
And when are it likely to be awarded?
Maybe by 1 or 1.5 months as what we are talking and the rest of the year, moving about the bid.
Okay, okay. And second, sir, on the SDB upfront, is there any limit that we will be getting to over any new limit will be free of next 6 months for the SDB?
Yes, so I think...
No. Actually, our performance levy will get released in '24 only...
Yes, because it has a digital liability of 2 years. So June was our first year much in completion. So this June, it will be completed. And June 2024, it will be second year of data clauses. So we'll get that money up at that time.
So how much broadly INR 150-odd crores we will be getting?
INR 80 crores.
INR 80 crores...
Okay. Got it. Got it. last, again, repeating the retention money, you said INR 107 crores plus INR 34 crores. So put together, it is INR 141 crores.
Yes, it is INR 101 plus INR 34.
Okay. INR 101 and INR 34. And unbilled revenue, you said INR 216 crores.
INR 257 million.
The next question is from the line of -- sorry, sir?
We are taking last 2 questions or we have...
We'll take last 2 questions now. I'll announce it. The next question is from the line of Rushabh Shah from RBSA Investment Managers.
Sir, just currently, [ PHP ] is around INR 2,000 crores top line. And so in the near future, we might reach INR 4,000 crores to INR 5,000 crores. So just had a 2-part question in this regard. Is it possible that we reach this number only from building construction and the areas that we currently operate in?
And secondly, at that scale, which areas do we need to -- do you think that we need to strengthen further? And what challenges would we be facing it? That's kind of how do we tackle it? If you could share your thoughts, sir, on these 2 questions.
You mean to say when we reached even in the top line of about INR 4,000 to INR 5,000 what will be the challenges?
Yes. First question is, is it possible to...
Diversification to reach to the level.
I had a 2-part question. The first was, you will be able to reach that top line with the current tariff work in building construction that we are in? Or remind it to add some other capabilities going forward.
And second was, what challenges you might see at that scale? And are we ready to face maybe at the stable level or maybe at the senior management level? How are we going to tackle those issues at that scale?
Yes. And when the company grows with the pace of 20% to 25%, you are always going to get some of the peoples which are getting experience in the company's culture. So if we maintain that aspect, that is something which is achievable. Only the challenge, which, again, I would say, that will be the execution capabilities of the company, and that goes as again human resources. So that will be the biggest determinant at the big bids. To be best to a good company, an exhibition is being done through a good quality, people at administrative level, at [indiscernible] to the managerial level.
And sir, there is some news flow regarding increase in minimum daily wages by Gujarat government. So is it in force right now -- what -- are you seeing an impact on the margins [indiscernible]?
No, no, it has not been imposed. It will be imposed soon. But as and when we get for a new process, we always consider that as a part of the extrinsic feature.
And sir, this railway station development, does it fit for bid? Are we looking to bid such projects? Or it's not -- we're looking at currently?
January to come, I think, but we are waiting that if we are able to qualify, we'll be able to bid.
Okay. Okay. And sir, just last question. Then I suppose Gujarat versus other states. How is the competition intensity? Is it the same? Or is it increased in the last 6 months or so?
Then the size project is up to INR 500 crores which in every state has its own competition at the lower level or in the local place, nothing in that area of that space. But when the sizes of the projects are more than INR 500 crores, probably this 5 or 6 companies, which is working on top line, they always come in good size, set of projects. But again, if we are working more in Gujarat, the companies like companies who are stable in [indiscernible], they're not be just INR 500 crores or INR 700 crore. So they can plan for leading the projects of more than INR 1,000 crores when they are quoting in our state.
Ladies and gentlemen, this was -- this would be the last question for today, which is from the line of Balkrushna Vaghasia from Axanoun Investment Management.
I have 2 questions. First is regarding the SMC building project. So what is the completion date for those -- that project?
I think it's a 3-year project. So we have just started in March. I think we got order in March. So it will be 24, 25, 26 months.
Okay. And the second question is related to retail malls that are coming up. So for example, Lulu group mall in Ahmedabad or Phoenix Group Mall in Surat. So are we bidding for those kind of projects?
Yes, yes. So there are 2 more cities coming up and one mall because of Phoenix -- we've done in Ahmedabad. There is one more going to come up in Surat. So there will be bidding for [indiscernible] from a large more developer like Reliance, [indiscernible].
Ladies and gentlemen, as that was the last question for today, I would now like to hand the conference over to Mr. P. S. Patel for closing comments. Over to you, sir.
Thank you, everyone, for your continued support and distinct trust on us. We hope that we have been able to address most of your queries. In case of further queries, you may reach out to our Investor Relations advisory, and they will connect you off-line. Thank you, Amar, for assisting our call. Thank you, operator. Go back to you.
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Thank you, ma'am. Ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of Ambit Capital Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines. Thank you.