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Oberoi Realty Ltd
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Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Oberoi Realty Q4 FY '24 Earnings Conference Call. We have Mr. Oberoi, the Chairman and Managing Director of the company; and Mr. Saumil Daru, Director of Finance of the company, with us for the call.
Please note that this call will be for 30 minutes. [Operator Instructions] And this conference call is being recorded. The transcript for the same may be put up on the website of the company.
[Operator Instructions] Before I hand the conference over to the management, I would like to remind you that certain statements made during the course of this call may not be based on historical information or facts and may be forward-looking statements, including those relating to general business statements, plans, strategy of the company, the future financial condition and growth prospect. The forward-looking statements are based on expectations and projections and may involve a number of risks and uncertainties and other factors that could cause actual results, opportunities and growth potential to differ materially from those suggested by such statements.
I now hand the conference call over to Mr. Oberoi, the Chairman and Managing Director of the company. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thank you. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening to all of you as per the time zones from which you have logged in, and welcome to the conference call Q4 FY 2024 results and business updates. Firstly, thank you all for taking time out for this call. Before I begin, I would like to share a few quick business updates.
I am very happy to announce that we have recorded our highest ever quarterly and annual profits in the financial -- in the current fiscal year. We have launched Elysian Tower-C at Oberoi Garden City in Q4, which garnered a strong demand from customers.
We have also received occupation certificate for Commerz III where Morgan Stanley is a large tenant. And we have witnessed a very strong leasing interest from prospective tenants. Additionally, we have also entered into a deal to redevelop 7 buildings in Adarsh Nagar, Worli. This land has a potential to generate a free sale component of about 6.25-odd lakh square feet.
With this, I open the floor for question and answers. And both Saumil and I will be very happy to take your questions. Thank you.
[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Puneet from HSBC.
Congratulations on good numbers. My first question is, if you can give some more color on what's happening with the leasing for the Commerz III and also for the mall in Borivali also in terms of timeline, what are we looking at from the rent to start for both these assets?
Commerz III, to begin with, is a marquee building designed by Woods Bagot, New York. The building is now complete. We have occupation certificate. And our anchor tenants are Morgan Stanley. They've consistently been increasing space. And if things go well, they'll probably be occupying 50% of the building.
The entire building is close to 2.4 million square feet of carpet area, and we are at LOI stage, in active discussions, which should probably take our leasing to close to about 80%, 85%. We have really nothing much to lease. And if things go well, we would be done within the next 2 quarters.
Okay. And what kind of rentals...
You asked me about the mall also. The mall is also, I would say, near complete. We are doing deep cleaning at some places, we are doing last mile finishes at certain other places. The cinema tenant is already in the property doing their fit-outs.
We have also started signing term sheets. In fact, even there, we've had tremendous success and a lot of progress. We would love to declare only once we register those agreements, which are also in the pipeline. And in all, we see very good traction. I think it's a great location and the design has already come up very, very well. And I think it probably has the potential to be rated as one of the best malls in the country.
And in terms of timeline for rents to start in both these places?
So execution is a tough job, I must say, and it ends up being a moving target. For now, we have set our site that we should be able to have a soft launch by October and our rents should also pretty much start by then.
That's for Borivali...
Borivali mall. And as far as the Commerz building is concerned. The rent has already started from 1st of April this year. The rent has already started.
And secondly, if you can also guide in terms of timeline for launch of your Adarsh Nagar project and potentially Gurugram project?
So both projects, I think, should be probably what -- anywhere between 8 and 12 months window is what we are really looking at. So pretty much next financial year.
The next question is from the line of Parikshit Kandpal from HDFC Securities.
Vikas, congratulations on a great quarter, sir. So my first question is on Thane. So this has been discussed a lot for last many quarters. So finally, any conclusion on launch timeline on this project? And if you can also update us whether the work has started on the site, what is the completion status or physical progress at the site?
Parikshit, we have 2 projects. Kolshet, work has commenced. Sales have commenced. And I would say, we are very happy with the way things have gone there. With regards to Pokhran Road, work has again commenced there, contract in place, work has started physically on site, and we are now waiting for the festive season.
Our show apartments are already, experience center is ready and we will be -- we should hopefully be launching within the festive season starting whatever, early October or something like that. And that's really our -- now all the hurdles are out, we are through with everything, and we are ready to launch.
Great to hear that and hopefully it gets launched in October. So my second question is on Three Sixty West. So this year, we have seen 8 units sold. So just to understand a little bit more on the demand side. So if you can also help us understand, besides the odd 8 units sold, what would be the partner share of units sold, just to understand the depth of the market for this product?
But what I understand is that there were sizable units being sold by other partner also in this financial year, so -- and maybe his inventory is now run out. So what is left is all yours from next year. So is it the right understanding? So some numbers here would help to understand that.
If I were to sell these apartments at my partner's pace, by next year, I would be done with my entire inventory. So I can only tell you that he's been able to sell pretty much all of his stuff. So there is great demand. And I must also tell you that they've been also able to get a very decent number with regards to sale price also. So I think now the decks are clear.
I also know that there is pretty much no competition around with the quality of building, with ready key. And if you see Worli Sea Face, people are asking anywhere between INR 1.75 lakh and INR 2 lakh a square foot. So we look a lot cheaper. They're a great product. We have a very good set of people already living there and happy. So I think they are great ambassadors to our product. And yes, now it's our turn to get going, and we will.
Okay. And just last thing on the CapEx now. So large part of the CapEx on the office and the mall is behind us. So just on the forthcoming pipeline, so I think we have hospitality tie up now with Marriott. So between Borivali and Thane, so what kind of CapEx you're looking at?
And also on the office side, if you can help us understand whether anything will kick off in Borivali as we have some land there for office or anything there? And any opportunities you're looking at Bengaluru. So what will be your strategy for Bengaluru in terms of whether you'll purchase resi there or you'll look at office?
So we are not looking at Bangalore for -- at least not looking at Bangalore very aggressively. Let me put it this way. We keep snooping in here and there, but not go deep or really go out there. We just want to keep understanding the market.
With regards to the CapEx of these 3, given our size is miniscule, really, these are all either meant to build locations. I can tell you that at some point in time, we'll have a very interesting portfolio of hotels, ranging from Ritz-Carlton to right up to JW Marriott, Marriott Westin. So yes, happy about it.
But again, like I said, that they are all being built or are being built or were being built to create locations. And that's what we really want to do. Our focus be on ensuring we buy more land and get a little more aggressive on execution and sales now.
And CapEx, sir, any CapEx over the next 2 years -- 2, 3 years on these assets?
CapEx on what, I mean, like we have so many verticals now. So..
Hospitality and office. I'm just...
You can take that offline with Saumil.
The next question is from the line of Pritesh Sheth from Motilal Oswal.
First is on margins for this quarter, which obviously looked very strong. Seems like largely because of Three Sixty West recognition and Elysian. So I just wanted to understand what kind of margins these 2 projects are now garnering for you, considering the pricing you have reached in Elysian and both -- and Three Sixty West as well?
At a company level, these are actually margins at the company level. They're not really individual margins. And we've always got those. And in fact, the residual or whatever is left with us are all higher floors. So you'll only see either the margin sustain or get better. So that's about it.
And from an accounting perspective, Pritesh, if you would have seen, last year, when we did the transaction also, the margin from that was eliminated because it was a related party transaction. So now every time when we sell a flat, the recognition as far as ORL is concerned is the entire differential between the cost versus the revenue that we are getting.
So it's not just the differential between what we acquired at INR 65,000-odd and the sale price. It is the cost versus this. So that's where this will come in with those kinds of margins. So if your question was that, are these margins sustainable, if that is what you were implying, then as far as Three Sixty West is concerned, yes.
Sure. And in general, whenever Elysian and Three Sixty West, both will have higher recognition coming. This is the sort of margins that...
Both are higher-margin projects. So they both will -- I mean, they both will continue. And Elysian is, we have only launched 3 of the towers so far, we have the balance yet to go, which has yet to be launched. So over the next few years, we will continue to see both top line as well as bottom line coming in from Elysian also.
Sure. Got it. And apart from Thane, any other launches from the projects that you have, you are looking at to come up for launch in this year?
So we have Borivali 1 tower left to be launched, which is when we say 1 tower, it's like 1 million square feet. We have our Garden City fourth and fifth tower, we have so much to do. And we have the, what you call, the second -- sorry, the balance of Mulund to be sold, the higher floors, we will be getting occupation certificate for the rest of the area. So we will launch that also, enough activity within Mumbai and now Thane.
Sure. And just lastly, on Adarsh Nagar, we understand there's huge potential apart from the 7 buildings that you've acquired. Will you be looking at acquiring a few more and wait for them to acquire and post that you will look to launch it? Or this is the 7 buildings that we were anyways looking at and we can go ahead with this 7 buildings in terms of redevelopment?
So we will be doing sector wise. This is a project by itself. We are very thankful to the people, they trusted us, they trust our brand, there are 500-plus people living here. We want to ensure that we deliver a house to them within the permitted time. So we don't want to mix any additional development with this.
This is a focused project. We will build it and we will launch it separately. And as and when we grow, they will all be built as separate sectors by themselves. We don't want to mix them, and we don't want to wait. We internally want to do it faster than 1 year. But having burned my fingers in the past, anticipating one can do things faster, things sometimes don't happen. Hence...
The next question is from the line of Saurabh Kumar from JPMorgan.
Sir just 2 questions. One is on this residential margins again, what will be the gross margin against this EBITDA at 48%, which you have for the full year?
I mean, any particular difference between gross margin and EBITDA?
No. So that will be like you've got overheads. Basically, I just want to know like how much is...
Overheads are typically, I mean, a few percentages. I mean a few percentage points or maybe 1 or 2 percentage. So those are not very significantly higher.
There is no debt on these resi projects, so there's no interest per se.
No, no, I was talking about your corporate cost and everything. So like I was just trying to figure out whether your underlying like construction cost -- sales less construction cost as gross profit? Is that in the 60% ballpark is what I was trying to figure out if that is there or not?
Yes, it's...
Because similar property developers have like 12%, 13% overhead.
It's not very material at a full level. So...
Saurabh, we run a very tight ship. So we don't really end up -- there's very little on the overheads and other costs.
Because even if you were to take that overheads at close to about INR 150-odd crores on a kind of a INR 4,000 crore odd or INR 5,000 crore odd top line and that barely works out to kind of a 3% number.
Okay. Got it.
Not significant, that's all.
Okay. Got it. And secondly, in terms of your rental assets, so we are -- I mean if I include the hotel, you are now averaging close to about, call it, nearly you're getting to about INR 400-odd crores. In terms of when do you think...
INR 450 crores.
Yes, INR 450 crores. Okay. So when do you hit that 4-digit mark in your opinion, like when should we think about these rentals getting to that about INR 1,000 crore mark?
Within this financial year, easily. With mall and Commerz III coming in, these are ready assets, so we will pleasantly pass the number you are talking about. We have very big plans, and we want to kind of make sure that we reach these numbers very quickly.
Okay. So by the time you commissioned because -- in terms of the accounting at least, because of the straight lining, you will -- hopefully, by Q4, we should be seeing that number?
Absolutely, very easily.
Okay. That's good to know. And just 1 last question. Just in terms of -- I know you briefly spoke about this Three Sixty West. So like one of your competitors in Delhi obviously is doing very well in luxury. How are you thinking about this demand now? So I mean, it's picked up, but how would you think about where you are positioned on this project versus -- I know the competition is mostly sold out. But at this price point, are you seeing now more demand come through?
I just want to tell you that luxury has gone through the roof in India, especially after COVID, actually, it's global. It's not just India. And with the kind of product we've -- this is all feedback and feedback from people who bought homes. So there's no false screens or anything like that.
These are people who bought and they all come and tell us that this is probably the best building they've seen in India. And I feel that it's being appreciated in the form of higher price and the stickiness to that is really strong. I just want to tell you that there's no competition sitting in Delhi. They are way too big. And he is the original champion. I'd leave him at that.
No, I'm talking more like luxury, like luxury is doing well, and I was wondering whether Bombay luxury is following Delhi luxury or not.
Okay. No, no, I think Mumbai luxury is equally there, and people in Mumbai enjoy as much as people in Delhi want to. So they are here to spend. And I think they appreciate good stuff, and we've been able to kind of deliver that. So humbled and happy about how things have gone.
Okay. So you would expect that over the next 2, 3 years, I mean, you get both pricing and sales upside?
Pricing is already set. You can see that. And now because, let's say, my partner who has already sold his stuff, it's just us left. And with no competition even within like nobody delivering in the next 12 months or 15 months or even 18 months for that matter, I think we have a clean run to deliver these, sell these. These are ready to move in -- key, you just take the keys in your hand and move in.
The next question is from the line of Abhinav Sinha from Jefferies India.
Sir, just following up on Saurabh's question. So in Worli specifically and even in the other projects, what sort of price appreciation we can expect in FY '25?
I personally -- I've never done my business through this lens of appreciation. I make a product, I want people to consume it, I want people to enjoy it. Now appreciation is a byproduct. And if you see historically, real estate has appreciated. I want to leave it at that.
Trust me, I'd be lying if I can tell you that I can really second guess what the markets can do. But given the way things are in India, we are in pole position when it comes to the economy. There is tremendous political stability.
And I think the next 10 years belong to India. So everybody will benefit out of that. Everybody will have a lot of free cash flow. And everybody will want to live better. So I think I would rather leave it at that and not guess what will happen on price.
Sure. Sir, any sales outlook or guidance you would like to give for next year?
I've never done that. I get tempted, but my CFO doesn't allow me, so I can't do that.
Saumil, with your permission, I mean double-digit growth, anything you would like to share?
You have had enough discussions with me, Abhinav, to know that I will not respond to that.
Okay. Anyway, let me try 2 other questions. So 1 on South Bombay, we now have 3 projects, a couple in Tardeo and 1 in Peddar Road, I guess. So any -- when are you expecting these launches to come through?
So like I said that these are all signed registered documents. And now we get on to getting permissions. As soon as we get them, we put an outer line of 12 months. But internally, we'll try and do it faster, don't want to commit something and not being able to do it. So these look like fairly achievable.
They are large projects. So they'll require all sorts of clearances, including MoEF, this, that and the other. And these things do take. So I want to put a safety net of 12 months, but we'll try and do it faster. And these are both amazing projects. Our Tardeo project is also excellent, you are literally peeping over the Willingdon Golf Course. So it's really a great project, I must say.
Sure. And lastly, we had a great year in cash collections this year and net debt is down close to INR 2,000 crores. So I mean, what is the outlook there? Do cash collections rise further? And how are you seeing your balance sheet in the next 12, 24 months?
Frankly, we are made to look like we are debt averse. We are not. We are just prudent about what we borrow. And typically, what we want to do is we want to borrow only to buy land and rather not even like maybe chase bonds or something like that to buy land. And they're all backed with apartments that are ready to be liquidated over time and so on and so forth.
So per se, only when you get large opportunities will we do that. None of our under construction projects require anything as such. So by and large, we are -- that's always been our strategy, and that is how it will be going forward. All our projects are cash flow positive. Most of them are having enough money to finish those projects because RERA requires you to hold those monies in specific accounts. So they're all well capitalized in a way.
The next question is from the line of Atul Tiwari from Citigroup.
Sir, just on this Adarsh Nagar project. So what will be the total construction area? I mean you said the free sale area is 6.5 lakh square feet. What is the total area to be constructed?
I think about 11 lakh square feet. That is because we have to make apartments and give them.
The next question is from the line Dhruvesh Sanghvi from Prospero Tree.
Great set of numbers. And just a couple of questions. Once we are going to see such crazy cash flows now, we would -- we are like really waiting where you press the pedal on the business development front as well. So I just wanted to have your view and probably want to push you a little bit on that area as well. I'm sure you are looking, but isn't it right time now that we are looking at a 10-year great outcome for India to probably secure 4, 5 more newer locations?
So Dhruvesh, totally resonate with you, agree with you, and we will be doing exactly what you are suggesting. Not that we didn't want to do it in the past, there were many challenges. Today, if you see that as a company, we built Commerz III in a record time. We've been able to deliver very high-quality projects and somehow feel confident that what people come to Oberoi Realty for which is quality and design detail and all that, we're able to do it at that particular scale.
So we've somewhere cracked that code. And that gives us a lot of confidence to now scale up. Without that, scaling up would mean actually encroaching on your brand name that you built with so much effort and without which anyway one wouldn't be able to grow.
So given that now that we have resolved that issue, we are absolutely confident that we can now grow and grow faster. And you're right that when we see our cash flows from existing, already built assets is going to be so much that we will have to continue to buy land.
Yes. And just -- I mean, the kind of goodwill that has happened in the Western suburbs more so than the eastern so far in Mumbai, I mean we are almost going to dry up in terms of land that we have in Borivali and Goregaon in the next 3 to 5 years. And considering the gestation that we typically have to plan the project correctly, get it, so is there nothing that we can do right now for these markets between the Borivali, Andheri range, especially when we see so many other small and midsized competitors grabbing decent-sized projects on the redevelopment front or yes, majorly redevelopment?
So Dhruvesh, firstly, I'll just tell you, we are very fortunate, there is no project -- almost no project that we don't get to see or reject before anyone else takes it. And that we have our reasons to not go ahead and do that. We are not a speculative company. We want to make sure whatever we take, we can deliver that, and there is enough for the company in terms of profit to be made and all that. We don't want to be getting after projects that eventually will make very little or no money because we have limited energy.
Second, I just want to tell you that we believe that our brand name is as strong in the east or with the west and now that we are going to Gurugram, we will be equally popular there. And so for us, we want to build geographic agnostic brand. We want to be a brand that can work anywhere.
So for us, there is no fear that, oh, we don't have something in the western suburbs. By the way, our strategy of having projects in the western suburbs is very clear. We want to literally have wells everywhere. So we want to ensure that we can literally pump out from any this thing. Every micro market has a capacity. And we want to tap into that capacity.
The strategy to go into multiple micro markets is that every market should give me INR 1,000 crores, INR 2,000 crores, INR 3,000 crores, INR 4,000 crores of sales, and that collectively will become great sales and all. So basis that is what we are really working on.
But point very well taken. We are absolutely back on BD mode in a big way, and we are mindful that we will be generating this cash and this -- that cash needs to be housed, and we will make sure we do that.
Sure. One small, last piece. So 5 years from -- I mean 5 years back till today, there were hardly any players between INR 5,000 crore, INR 7,000 crores presales. And now there are at least 5 players talking about INR 20,000 crores plus presales in the industry, most of them are listed.
Considering the kind of work that we do, very high margin, very, very luxurious, et cetera, but somewhere in the discussion internally, you would definitely be comparing the kind of growth that they see, I'm just laughing on a positive side. So what is Vikas Oberoi thinking internally?
And if you can share some thoughts? Because even though we say that we don't benchmark anything directly to the competition, but somewhere these numbers will not be overwhelming you in your mind that, oh, this is the kind of growth that those strategies also did and should we pivot it in that format at all?
Well, I can only tell you that I read somewhere that my competitor himself told me that he does not want to be chasing to be the largest seller in the real estate industry. So I'm glad people have now started resonating with what I'm saying. That's really not the idea.
Trust me, the idea is to make a great product. The idea is to do the right thing. The idea is to do it prudently and cautiously. And like I said that today, we feel confident that we can do a lot more, and we can control that quality. We want to really go by that. The market is very big. It's always going to be big. I want to first build my capacity and then go out there in the market and build more.
I don't want to chase other people, I don't want to chase -- I don't want to have unrealistic targets. I want to build my capacity first. I want to build my team, which can then go on, we have to build strategies around it. Please don't forget, our last mile in India is not ready. We don't have great contractors today. If I want to give a job to somebody, there aren't many contractors who can execute with quality.
So -- and believe me, when people buy a house, there's a huge responsibility on us, and they are putting their lifetime earning there. So I'm very, very, very conscious about that fact. And hence, I will put my own aspirations aside unless and until I'm very sure that I can deliver a particular quality. So quantity will always come after this bit.
Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question for today. I would now like to hand the conference call over to Mr. Oberoi for closing comments.
Okay. So thank you all for taking time out for this call. We look forward to hearing from you on an ongoing basis. Please feel free to reach out to my Investor Relations team. And if you have any questions, surely, you can do that. Thank you, once again, and have a great day ahead.
Thank you, everybody.
Thank you. On behalf of Oberoi Realty, that concludes this conference call. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.