Info Edge (India) Ltd
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Info Edge (India) Ltd
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Hi, everyone. We will be starting now. I am Anand Bansal, along with my colleague, Vivek Aggarwal. We'll run this call. Vivek, over to you. We have 160 people, and we can start now.
Thanks, Anand. Hi, everyone. Good afternoon. Welcome to Info Edge India Limited Q4 '21 and Full Year 2021 Financial Results Call. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. Joining us today from the management side, we have Mr. Sanjeev Bikhchandani, Founder and Vice Chairman; Mr. Hitesh Oberoi, Co-Promoter and Managing Director; and Mr. Chintan Thakkar, Chief Financial Officer. Before we begin today, I would like to remind you that some of the statements made today in today's conference call may be forward-looking in nature and may involve risks and uncertainties. Finally refer to Slide #2 on investor presentation for a detailed disclaimer. Now I would like to hand over the conference to Mr. Hitesh for his opening remarks. Thanks. Thank you, and over to you, Hitesh.
Thank you, Vivek, and good evening, and a warm welcome to everyone for our fourth quarter and annual results conference call for FY 2021. As always, we'll start with the overall financials and then cover each business in more detail, and then we'll have Q&A towards the end. The audited financial statements and other schedules on segmental billing, revenues, et cetera, along with the dealer sheet have been uploaded on our website, www.infoedge.in. So let's move on to the stand-alone financials. Billings in Q4 were INR 415.7 crores, up 25.2% year-on-year. FY '21 billings stood at INR 1,150.7 crores, down 9.3% year-on-year. Revenue in Q4 was INR 290 crores, down 10.2% year-on-year. FY '21 revenue stood at INR 1,098.6 crores, down 13.7% year-on-year. Operating expenses, excluding depreciation and amortization for the quarter were INR 236.8 crores, up by 4.7%. And for FY '21, expenses stood at INR 821.1 crores, down 5.6% year-on-year. Operating EBITDA for the quarter stood at INR 53.2 crores versus INR 96.5 crores last year, a decline of 44.9% year-on-year. And FY '21, operating EBITDA stood at INR 277.5 crores, down from INR 402.7 crores last year, a decline of 31.1%. Operating EBITDA margins for the quarter stood at 18.3% compared to 29.9% in Q4 of FY '20. For FY '21, EBITDA margin stood at 25.3% versus 31.6% last year. Cash EBITDA for the quarter, however, rose sharply by 68.3% year-on-year to INR 179.5 crores. Cash EBITDA for the full year stood at INR 331.6 crores, down 16.6% year-over-year. Deferred sales revenue stood at INR 520.8 crores as of 31 March 2021 versus INR 465.6 crores as of 31st March 2020, an increase of 11.9% year-on-year. And the cash balance in the IEIL Group as a whole stands at INR 3,592 crores as of 31st March 2021, as against INR 1,551 crores as of 31st March 2020. Key snapshots for the quarter, Q4 saw a sharp revival, both in terms of traffic and billing across all our verticals. All our operating verticals did very well in Q4. Billings in the recruitment vertical experienced growth across most industry segments, but less especially by IT and IT enabled services. The growth in the underlying operating metrics signals a strong revival in the recruitment sort of space. In 99acres, traffic grew handsomely in Q4 across all our categories, residential, commercial and new launches. However, with the onset of the second COVID wave at Q1 2022, we witnessed a sharp drop in 99acres in terms of traffic in April and May. Since then, the traffic has recovered in the month of June. In Jeevansathi, we continue to invest in brand and marketing and user experience. The higher growth rate in both in terms of volume and value gives us a confidence to continue investing in the business for the next few quarters as well. Shiksha's traffic gains over the last 18 months are now being translated into higher revenue growth. We continue to invest in improving both consumer and engagement through comprehensive -- we continue to invest in improving consumer engagement, both through comprehensive content and more user-centric product offerings. Moving on to the consolidated financial highlights for the quarter. At the consolidated level, the net sales for the group stood at INR 296.5 crores versus INR 327.6 crores from the corresponding quarter of March 20. For the consolidated entity at the total comprehensive income level, there is a gain of INR 309.4 crores versus INR 115.2 crores from the corresponding quarter of March 2020. PAT for FY '21 at a consolidated level stood at INR 1,408.8 crores versus a loss of INR 245.7 crores for FY '20. This includes an exceptional gain of INR 1,434.2 crores as opposed to a gain of INR 182 crores last year on account of notional gain arising from fresh infusion by other investors and our JV associate companies such as Zomato and Policybazaar, et cetera. Moving on to business-wise results. We'll first discuss the recruitment. In Q4 2021, recruitment segment billings were at INR 297.9 crores, up by 22% year-on-year, while revenues were INR 198.6 crores, a decline of 13.9% year-on-year. Operating EBITDA stood at INR 99.3 crores, down by 24.3% year-on-year. Margins were at 50% versus 56.9% in Q4 of last year. For the full year as a whole, our recruitment billing was down 11.9% to INR 806.9 crores, while revenue declined by 15% to INR 771 crores. For the full year, EBITDA margin stood at 55.4% compared to 55.6% in FY '20. And cash EBITDA for the quarter, however, in recruitment -- for the recruitment business stood at INR 198.9 crores, up 37% year-on-year. Naukri had a strong sort of -- we saw a strong performance in Q4 in recruitment in Naukri India with 22% year-on-year Y-o-Y growth in billings with March, billings growing at 54% year-on-year. Overall, we saw secular growth with an increase in billings in platform usage and a number of customers across most segments, including IT and ITeS and consultants, which together account for over 50% of the Naukri India top line. We saw a sharp upswing in job seeker metrics as well on the platform. New CV registrations per day stood at INR 16,000 -- stood at, sorry, 16,000 per day, a growth of 25% compared to Q4 of last year. Average CV modifications per day also reached a record high of 512,000, a growth of 21% year-on-year and 41% in March 2021. Recruiter engagement with the platform improved further in Q4, majorly led by IT, health care and pharma industries. We redefined our marketing strategy for the quarter with very limited spend as per the current business environment. At the same time, we also managed to maintain our market share of 80% plus in the country's traditional online classified recruitment business. Moving on to iimjobs and HIRIST. Not including in the stand-alone numbers, iimjobs reported a billing of INR 10.3 crores for Q4 of 2021. This is a growth of 54.9% from Q4 of 2020. For the full year FY '21, iimjobs and HIRIST added 4,300 new customers. And EBITDA for Q4 '21 stood at INR 1.6 crores, up from a loss of INR 2.3 crores in Q4 2020. And cash EBITDA for Q4 for IM jobs were at INR 5.4 crores. And for the full year, cash EBITDA was INR 6.3 crores. As some of you may already know, we announced and completed the 100% acquisition of Bangalore-based Zwayam Digital Private Limited this month, which is -- this is -- this month as in June. Zwayam is engaged in business -- in the business providing SaaS-based sourcing and screening recruitment solutions and providing end-to-end equipment solutions with configurable play-and-play -- plug-and-play modules. Zwayam revenue for FY '21 stood at INR 6.46 crores for the full year. The acquisition of Zwayam will leverage our strength in distribution and complement and supplement our RMS offerings. Moving on to the real estate vertical, 99acres. In 99acres, billings in Q4 stood at INR 71.7 crores, a growth of 41.5% year-on-year, while revenue stood at INR 50.1 crores, a decline of 11.1% year-on-year. For FY '21, billing was down 13.6% compared to FY '20 and closed at INR 184.8 crores, while revenue declined by 23.8% and we closed the year at 117.8 crores. The operating loss for the quarter stood at INR 15.6 crores, while EBITDA for the full year stood at a loss of INR 22.2 crores against a profit of INR 8.4 crores for the last financial year. Cash profit for 99acres during the quarter, however, was INR 5.7 crores against a cash loss of INR 3.8 crores last year. In Q4 in 99acres, new homes, resale and commercial showed strong sequential business recovery compared to Q3. Rental recovery was a bit muted though. In Q4, our expenses were higher by 20% due to increased brand marketing spends and the launch of a new marketing campaign. Daily fresh owner listings posted on the platform grew 14% year-on-year in Q4. Recovery in broker listings lagged a little behind the recovery in owner listings. All-India brand top-of-mind share continued to be strong and traffic in Q4 grew 11% quarter-on-quarter and year-on-year. And our responses on the platform grew at an average of about 35% in Q4 versus Q4 of last year, response meeting inquiries to listings. Going forward, we expect the share of online in the overall spend of advertisers and leading developers and brokers to go up further post the second COVID wave subsiding and lockdowns easing out as advertisers further realize inherent cost efficiency of digital versus print media and [ puttings ]. Post -- once the lockdown restrictions are fully removed, we expect to see a broader recovery on all fronts, listings, traffic, inquiries and revenue. Like I said, April and May were -- for 99acres were affected because of the lockdown and because of COVID, too. Since then, traffic has bounced back in the month of June, but we'll have to wait and see what happens going forward. We continue to invest aggressively in improving our core platform experience in all our businesses -- in all our business segments in the 99acres to strengthen our competitive position further. Moving on to the Matrimony business, Jeevansathi. In Jeevansathi, billings grew 12.2% year-on-year in Q4 to INR 26.7 crores, and revenue grew 14.4% year-on-year to INR 25.9 crores. Operating EBITDA losses stood at INR 21.4 crores in Q4 of '21, up from a loss of INR 188 crores last year. FY '21 billing grew by 15.2% year-on-year to INR 100.4 crores for the full year, up from INR 87.1 crores in FY '20 and revenue grew INR 96.9 crores from INR 84.7 crores in FY '20, an increase of 14.4%. FY '21 EBITDA stood at a loss -- EBITDA loss stood at INR 95.6 crores against a loss of INR 63.2 crores in FY '20. Cash cost for Jeevansathi during the quarter stood at INR 21.9 crores, up from a cash loss of INR 18 crores last year in the same quarter. In Q4, growth momentum continued despite a slowdown in March due to the rise COVID cases. The key differentiating features in the platform like online verification, video calling and video-based online meet-ups kept driving user engagement and the app rating on the Google Play Store continue to be one of the best in the category Jeevansathi continues to consolidate its position as it gets into a position of strength in the Hindi-speaking markets. Moving on to our education vertical, Shiksha.com. In Q4, billings of Shiksha grew 45.1% year-on-year to INR 19.4 crores, while revenue grew 16.8% year-on-year to INR 15.4 crores. In FY '21, billing and revenue grew 12.7% and 6.9%, respectively, and stood at INR 58.6 crores and INR 57 crores, respectively. EBITDA stood at INR 30 lakhs versus a loss of INR 1.4 crores in Q4 of '20. Full year '21 operating profit stood at INR 4.1 crores versus a profit if INR 1.2 crores in FY '20. Cash profit for the quarter stood at INR 4.3 crores, up from a cash loss of INR 1.2 crores in Q4 '20. We are continuously putting more and more efforts to get more and more relevant content on the platform. Talking about our strategic investments. Our investee company, Zomato has filed a DRHP with SEBI seeking approval for the proposed side. Thank you. That's all from us. We are now ready to take any questions that you may have.
[Operator Instructions]The first question is from Pankaj Kapoor from CLSA.
I have 2 questions. First, on the bookings, especially in the recruitment business, does it also have some element of price increases? Or was it all volume led? And if you can quantify the price compound if there is one. Second, on the cash balance, you still have almost the entire fund that you raised last year from your IP in the books, plus in the next few months, you will probably get another INR 750-odd crores from Zomato IPO. So how are you thinking about it? Do you plan to keep it for some more time and wait for a larger acquisition? Or maybe change the investment style and move for late-stage funding? Or are you contemplating maybe even returning it back to the shareholders? Any color on your thought poses there within?
Yes, let me answer your first question. See, we -- Q4 saw a broad recovery in recruitment. We got a lot of new -- old customers back into the system, customers who were not renewed earlier. We were, of course, able to upgrade our existing customers also because it actually picked up in Q4 in a lot of segments. So actually, also picks up is that you tend to give lower discounts. So while -- so that may have also helped to some extent. If we'd take a very aggressive price increase in the quarter, the answer is no. We did roll out some new products for a certain set of customers, but that -- contribution of that to the growth in Q4 was minimal. To answer your other question on resource allocation and so on and what we intend to do with the cash Well, see, our strategy remains the same. We continue to invest in different sort of parts of our business. the 4 businesses internally, of course, not regenerating a lot of cash, but we continue to invest -- we want to invest aggressively going forward in both Jeevansathi and 99acres, and if required, in Shiksha as well. We have been making a lot of investments in adjacent areas. We acquired Zwayam, for example, this quarter. We would like to do more such acquisitions going forward in the spaces in which we operate. So that's the second bucket in which we are investing. Also, the Info Edge AIF continues to invest aggressively in start-ups. And yes, we are -- we will continue to scout for bigger acquisitions as well. But there, we are likely to acquire maybe 1 company every, like, 2 or 3 years. So we continue to analyze and look at all opportunities in all the spaces we are operating today, jobs, real estate, matrimony, education. And if we find something interesting, and which is also available at the right price, then of course, we will sort of press out little bit. So to answer action, I mean the idea right now is not to give cash back to the shareholders, but to utilize it for growth in all the sort of various buckets I mentioned going forward.
The next question is from Pranav Kshatriya from Edelweiss.
My first question is regarding this pandemic and the Phase 2 of the pandemic. Has there been any impact on Naukri business for non-IT verticals because of this? And for other verticals, if you want to call out for any specific impact which has happened?
Yes. So surprisingly, COVID 2 has had no impact on the overall Naukri business. In fact, we were taken a bit by surprise. It impacted the 99acres business, like I said, because the lockdown meant that people could not go out to look for houses, but hiring has moved online. Hiring is now all digital. Interviews are happening at home. In fact, it's become easier to hire now because you won't even need to travel for an interview.So COVID 2 had no impact on our -- has had no impact on Naukri till now. Even job seeker metrics continue to be healthy, recruiter metrics continue to be healthy. Of course, there was a lull in hiring for some time in between because maybe there was a point in time when the entire -- a lot of recruiters were down with COVID. A lot of candidates were down with COVID. But on the whole, we've not seen any major impact of COVID 2 on hiring or at least on our business. Yes, hiring has been mostly IT and ITeS-led that part of our -- those sort of segments or those industries have grown -- grew much more rapidly for us than the non-IT sectors, which would impact a lot more, which have been impacted a lot by COVID.
Yes, the next question is from Sudheer Guntupalli, from ICICI Securities.
Yes. Just want to check if you want to call out any one-offs or so in employee expenses or other expenses during this quarter, because it looks a tad higher than our usual run rate.
Well, we gave an increment to some employees in, I think, the second half of last year. So partly maybe that. And partly, you see, we were not expecting the company to do so well in Q4. So almost all our sales teams met and exceeded their targets. So there was maybe a huge variable payout as well in Q4. So that may be -- that may have accounted for the part of the increase.
So is it fair to understand -- I mean, is it a fair understanding that this would have otherwise been spread out over 4 quarters and probably it would have gotten accounted for in only 1 quarter?
Not over 4 quarters because see, the salary increase is what it was. I mean most -- many people in the company got a salary increase. And what you saw -- I mean, what -- Zeta had also saw a salary increase for that quarter. And also, the variable payout is also only for that quarter. It's not as if the there was a variable payout, which was made for the entire year.But yes, because the way variable pay plan works is that if you exceed your targets, you end up making a lot of variable. So most people must have made 100%, 120%, 130% of what their target was. On the other hand, in the previous quarters because most people ended up making less than -- doing less than their target, they may have ended up at 70%, 60%, 80% of what was they're targeted variable.
Yes. May I just add to that, just to help you understand it better. So when COVID came in March 2020, right, and the economy virtually shut down, we did not let go of any people in April 2020, but we deferred the increments, right? And those increments were given, I think, in December, if I'm not wrong, if I'm correct. What -- they were not given it in retrospective effect. When were it given to them?
December 1, when we gave some part it, if not all.
And they were paid prospectively, not retrospectively. And therefore, that tended to depress the people payouts in the first 9 months of the financial year because we were unsure what will happen. And when businesses begin to come back, we give the increments but prospectively. So the increment that should have happened in April actually happened for some people in December. And for some people, it didn't happen in the summer. We are being very cautious.
Yes. Yes. Got it, sir. And Hitesh, just one more question on recruitment. You alluded to the fact that surprisingly, it had no impact on -- COVID second wave had not much of an impact in the June quarter also. So is it fair to expect that we have been seeing a period of depressed white collar hiring in the country for some time now. even before the start of COVID and over the last 12 to 14 months also. So is it fair to expect that we are kind of looking at a strong recovery in the white collar space and probably one of the green shoots of that is the fact that despite such a lot of panic and fear around second wave, it has not really impacted our March/June quarter wins. Is that a fair way to look at it?
Hard to say what is going to happen going forward. But what I hear from -- anecdotally from our sales team and what we have seen in our company also, there is an indication hiring in -- at least of people with digital skills and IT scale is back to the bank, right? I think the digital transformation story is playing out as we speak and every company wants to hire digital talent. And attrition rates are moving up across companies, salaries are going up like crazy for people with the right skills. Now this is not happening in all parts of the economy. Like I said, it's only in some parts -- in some industries where we are seeing this. But -- so I don't know if it's going to sustain. But right now, it's almost impossible to hire people in this market. It's that bad. If you have -- in the digital sort of world. In the non-digital world, I mean things are not as this.
Got it. Just one last question. So maybe an extension of other previous questions. We already have around INR 3,600 crores cash on the balance sheet, maybe more than sufficient for any of our future M&A/early-stage investment options. So how do we look at the monetization plan from, let us say, Zomato listing standpoint? Are we going ahead with that monetization of that stake? Or because we already have INR 3,600 crores kind of cash on the balance sheet. What is the thought process behind monetizing that stake in Zomato at this juncture?
See, just 1 point I want to make. See INR 3,600 crores is not a lot of money in the digital world anyway, right? You routinely hear of companies in the digital world making $200, $300 million acquisition every day, right, of companies you've not even heard of. So I'm just letting you know that if you want to make a big acquisition, this money may not be enough. Now Sanjeev can talk about what we want to do on the Zomato stake. Sanjeev, you're on mute.
Sorry. Look, it's -- there is a DRHP that we will monetize up to INR 750 crores worth of stock. We stay with that as of now, up to INR 750 crores. We will, of course, the final DRHP that we file, and let's see what happens there.
The next question is from [ Satilik ] from [ The General Fund ]. Mr. [ Satilik ] seems to have dropped out so I'll take the next question.Next question is from Vivekanand Subbaraman from AMBIT Capital.
I have a couple of questions. One, you mentioned about a month, 1.5 months back that large part, I mean, 20%, 25% of your employees were also impacted by COVID. Does this second wave, the suddenness and the sharpness, does this change your outlook towards just having 1 office in NCR. I mean, would you want to change the way you operate? That's question one. Secondly, with respect to the previous question on Zomato. Sanjeev, I heard that you mentioned there's an option to monetize up to INR 10.5 million crore worth of stake.
INR 750 crores, I said.
Right, INR 750 crores. So does this necessarily mean that we will need to go ahead with it or could we potentially not sell?
We have no further announcement to make on this right now. We -- it's in the DRHP that we will monetize up to INR 750 crores. Let's see how the IPO proceeds.
So I don't know if I got the first question right, but basically, you were asking whether we will intend to go back to working from 1 office in Noida, right?
No, my question was more about your operations being focused on 1 city, right? NCR, right? I mean most of your over central team sit there. Is there a plan to possibly change the way you operate given how badly NCR was impacted during the second wave? I'm just asking the same question that I asked some time ago on tech hiring being so difficult in NCR. Probably will you consider being -- operating from other cities like [indiscernible].
Got it. Got it. So listen, so we have close to 4,500 employees. And many of our -- the employees we have are in sales roles. So we have sales office in over 40 cities. So I think close to 1,500 people or maybe 1,200, 1,300, 1,400 people operate out of these cities, right, and these offices in these cities. In NCR, also, we have multiple offices. So we don't operate out of 1 physical location. Of course, in the last 16, 18 months, we've been operating from home, and that is what we intend to do for the next few months as well till this sort of COVID behind us. It's had no impact on our business. We are doing okay. We saw no -- we see no reason to go back to working from office now Hari, right? Will be hire remotely? Answer is maybe yes, because this -- the way we are working, seems to be working out well for us. Now we will be very aggressive about remote hiring, maybe no to start with, but we will experiment for sure with the more hiring. Take Zwayam for example, the company we acquired. They base out of Bangalore. So now we have a base in Bangalore as well, right? So if we want to expand our operation in Bangalore, we can always add more people in Bangalore based on it.
The next question is from Neha [indiscernible].
So my questions are in line with the online match meeting business that you have Jeevansathi. So where do you see the business going forward? -- from here? And do you see the business being profitable in the coming years? And what are your current marketing spends?
So the plan is to keep growing Jeevansathi 20% plus per annum for the next few years. And now this will require investments, substantial investments in marketing if we have to gain share. So we believe that we'll have to keep investing in the business and mostly marketing for the next 3, 4 years at least. So that's the current plan. I mean -- Last year, we lost INR 60 crores -- INR 90 crores be -- year before last, last INR 60 crores. Going forward also, we may have to -- because the market is very competitive, we are #3 -- #2 in the north, but #3 nationally. If we have to gain share, then we have to match the marketing spends of our competitors who today are spending INR 120 crores, INR 130 crores a year on marketing. So if you have to gain share, we'll have to spend at least that much if not more.
Do you have plans for consolidations in this market? And where do you see yourself?
No, it's a 3-player market, unfortunately. And therefore, no player makes a lot of money. And we are all fighting each other and prices are also depressed -- pricing is also depressed. So ideally, makes a lot of sense for players to sort of come together. But whether it's doable or whether in the next 1 or 2 years is hard for me to say. I mean, we are open to the idea, but it may or may not be practical and feasible.
And will you be on the buying side or the...
Yes, yes. We would not rather buy than sell.
Next question is from Krishna from Capitalmind.
I just have 1 question. On our balance sheet, we have INR 2,329 crores categorized as other financial assets. So can you throw some light on what these assets are actually?
So these are the -- these align with the banks more than 1 year with original maturity. So 1 category is up to 3 months. Second is 3 to 12 months and third category is beyond 1 year.
Okay. So these are essentially FDs only.
That's right.
[indiscernible] Great. Great. Just any -- and Hitesh, any light on policy with our IPO? When can we expect it? Maybe year-end or next year?
Chintan, do you want to take that?
So Policybazaar is preparing themselves for the IPO. When they will have -- I think that's a little far up. Board has not really approved any plans. But we can certainly tell you that they are preparing for it. And as you know, that IPO preparation takes its own amount of time. So I think we are going through that. So as and when we are kind of ready for that and the RSP is filed, I'm sure there will be an announcement on that.
The next question is from Mayank Babla from Dalal & Broacha.
My first question is about other expenses. Quarter-on-quarter, there's been a sudden spike from INR 15.7 crores to INR 22.5 crores. Could you please explain that?
Sorry, which other expenses?
Yes. On the standalone business.
Sorry, I haven't got your question.
The other expenses line, the increase...
The stand-alone results. Yes.
I understand.
Yes, quarter-on-quarter increase.
Your question, other expenses have gone up substantially compared to last quarter.
Yes.
Yes.
Hello?
Just give us a minute.
So can I go with the second question, sir?
Yes. Yes, please go ahead.
So Hitesh, my question was around for us, Zomato and Policybazaar, it took 8 to 10 years of patient capital to become so big. Over the next -- now going ahead over the next 8 to 10 years or 15 years, which segments or which sectors are you seeing potential and/or where you can -- where you're seeing it can be the next Zomato or Policybazaar?
Sanjeev, you are on mute.
May I take that question? So look, we don't do it top-down. We don't do sectors. We don't -- we prefer to see companies and entrepreneurs. And if you like something, we invest in it. So we'd like to see what bubbling up. We do it bottom up. We believe that's the best way to invest as opposed to be deciding, "Hey, we've got 4 classified sectors. We don't have automobile. We've got to do it." That's not the way we do it, okay?Now if you -- if I talk about companies that are promising, I think in the direct investments and influences made from its balance sheet to our subsidiary balance sheets, there are I think 2 or 3 companies that are looking promising, right? But of course, they are much, much smaller and much, much less valuable than Zomato and Policybazaar right now. So these would be Gramophone, ShopKirana, HFC, Bizness, right? We are hopeful that 1 or 2 more may emerge, which will be really valuable. But look, with early stage, you can't say for sure. We would love all 5 or 6 to make it. But our past experience tells us if we've got 6 promising, in all likelihood, not all 6 will make it. So wait and watch, and we continue to support, continue to invest, continue to work with them. As far as the EIF portfolio is concerned, that's very, very new. So it's too early. It's still emerging. But yes, we've got some promising investments there also, but it's emerging. As far as the investments in the strategic spaces are concerned, which is investments in jobs, in real estate, in matrimony and in educated classifieds, the consideration there is not necessarily to build unicorns, an investment unicorn and have this great financial upside there. I think a big part of that intent would be to complete your offering to build your moat to definitely a new segment. And so you've got to look at it from that strategic prism. Now for example, the Zwayam acquisition, on its own may or may not become a unicorn or a separate business, but does it complete the offering of Naukri? For example, does it make your job list product much more useful because it's enterprise response management service. Maybe it does. What does iimjobs do? Does it complete a gap in your portfolio? Yes, it probably does. Now will it become a INR 1,000 crore business on its own? May not be, but does it cover a gap in the market, build a moat from Naukri? Answer is, yes, possibly. So the prism for evaluating strategic investments is different from merely valuations. Other expenses have increased because of CSR spend, which has increased and also for bad debts basically -- primarily.
Next question is from [ Kaushal Shah ].
Am I audible?
Yes, go ahead.
As -- do you look any competition coming from LinkedIn or any big thing in professional networking in your recruitment vertical? And again, 1 question. As Hitesh said that you are not willing to give back any money via dividend. So any bonus on -- bonus plans on your list?
See, LinkedIn has been around for maybe 12, 14 years, we've been competing with LinkedIn. Has anything changed on that front? Has anything material sort of happened on that front, which we would want to report? The answer is no, we've been competing with LinkedIn like we've been competing for the last few years.
Okay. And...
As far as the bonuses were is concerned, look, we haven't discussed it really. But my personal sense is that, look, you will be prepared to give a bonus when your EPS is high enough and there's predictability. Given COVID and the uncertain environment, there isn't so much predictability and therefore -- which is why we haven't considered it. It's hardly even being discussed.
Next question is from Vivekanand from AMBIT Capital.
Hitesh, Sanjeev, would you like to share any update on the recruitment areas or segments where we are not that dominant, especially the non-IT side or BFSI? And if you could give us a bit more qualitative color on the kind of customers that iimjobs and HIRIST have signed on? That's question one. Second, we were talking about the management reorganization, I think, in fiscal '20 end or mid of fiscal '20, mid of fiscal '19 with respect to the real estate vertical where we wanted to focus on a few new revenue segments. Any update on that?
So -- if we take your question on iimjobs and HIRIST and segments where we are not as strong. See basically, Naukri is a dominant player across segments. So whether it's IT companies or non- IT companies, every company uses Naukri to hire. IT companies, of course, hire a lot of people, and they see a lot of value in Naukri. It's a lot of hiring skill-based.But where Naukri -- where LinkedIn comes in is, it sort of use more passive hiring or hiring of seekers who are not looking for a job. And Naukri is used to be used more for active jobs seekers hiring or of jobs seekers who are looking for jobs. And that continues to be the case. Now where iimjobs made some inroads was in management hiring, so hiring of management graduates in good institutions, premier institutions, which companies like, for example, if you take some of the top companies in India, they hire a lot of -- the 6:42 AM best sort of -- these schools, they're hiring from these schools. They hire -- they do a lot of campus hiring.They hire very high-quality talent from the IMs from the other sort of good business schools. And that's where Naukri was lagging a bit. Because see, while Naukri had these jobs and they had all these job seekers, some of the -- and because we had a lot of them, the premium guys are getting lost, right, on the platform. And iimjobs have built a good brand in this segment. So we managed to use iimjobs to get a lot of these customers who are not using Naukri aggressively for hiring this kind of talent into our fold, right? That's been the effort till now. HIRIST is still tiny. Okay. HIRIST is still very, very small compared to iimjobs and compared to Naukri, but it's emerging as a decent tech brand. Again, our intent -- our intention will be when we obviously -- how it plays out in real life will be to position HIRIST as a premium tech hiring brand, unlike Naukri, which is like a mass tech hiring brand. So let's see how that goes. Early days on that front.
There's the second part of the question.
Second was on, I think, 99acres REIT management reorganization. Yes, yes. So we are -- so what we've -- earlier, we used to look at 99acres as 1 business with 1 team managing everything. So over time, we realized that we are actually in maybe 3 or 4 different verticals in the real estate business. So the jobs -- the resale vertical is very different from the commercial vertical, which is very different from the new home vertical, which is very different from the rental vertical, right? So what we've done at least for the time being is we've reorganized the product team at least. So we have separate teams working on each of these verticals. So separate platform teams for each of these verticals. We are now moving towards reorganizing the engineering team also, platform-wise or vertical-wise. Right now, we have 1 sales team with sales to all our customers. But there also, we have separated out the new home piece to a large extent, so that we have a separate set of people who work on customers who sell new homes, right? So it's largely done. We are 60%, 70% there. We continue to, of course, have 1 brand, 99acres. We are not launching a separate brand. Right now, that's not the intent. But that's where we are in that agenda.
Any comments on the debate -- sort of perennial debate with respect to 99acres. The debate was being remaining classifieds player and a full stack operation. And secondly, do you have anything to report in respect to the collaboration with some of the investees that operate in the same area? You had made those investments a couple of years ago.
Yes. So full stack versus classified, see of course, classified is as our core business, and we are primarily a listing and marketing platform. And that's where 95%, 98% of revenue comes in today. About maybe 1% or 2% of our revenue today comes from services we provide to owners, right? And yes, the plan is to grow this piece over time, faster if possible, to provide more and more assisted services to owners. Are we looking to go the whole log and become brokers? Definitely not in the resale segment, definitely not in the rental segment, right? I mean, that's not the current plan. Could we invest in companies outside which do stuff like this, maybe we could. But that's -- I mean we experimented with Allcheckdeals a few years ago, and we then shut it down. So Allcheckdeals was supposed to be, like, a channel partner for selling new homes. It did not work out for us at that point in time. Could we revisit that idea? Maybe we could at some point in time. Let's see. Let's see how it evolves. Not saying no. We've invested -- like you said, we've invested in a couple of start-ups in the real estate space outside deal, which is -- [ Deal ] is one of them. It's a real estate analytics company. We did some -- we're trying out some integration [ Deal ] right now in 99acres, early days, so nothing much to report on that front. The other investment we made is in [ Rahul Docks Company], but that is very, very recent. So again, not much to report on that front.
Any more questions, please? This was the last question that we had today. The next question is from Hari.
My question is on Jeevansathi. So this year, we have, I think, burnt INR 93 crores last year, so we went INR 65 crores. And I think if we sum up for the last 5 years, I think we have burnt around INR 220 crores or INR 230-odd crores. So I was just wondering, from the outside in, it doesn't seem like a super exciting market that's growing very quickly. So what is that we are seeing in this market that we are continuing to invest so much money here.
Well, see, we are a reasonably strong player now in the north. We are a strong #2 in India. We have close to 40% share. Why we are spending this much money right now is to gain share, right? And we've gained share over the last few years. We believe that if we keep investing this kind of money for the next 2, 3 years, we'll become a leader in the north. And hopefully, at some point in time, there will be consolidation in the space. So that's the idea right now. Why are we spending this much money? Because our competition is also spending a lot of money, so we are also forced to spend. It's a competitive market. If we don't, then of course, then it's like exiting market. But I think -- do believe that this market can grow -- continue to grow at 15%, 20% per annum or 15%, 17% per annum for the next few years. It's not -- and if there was to ever be consolidation in this space, then the margins also could be healthy for the players who are left in the business.
Next question is from Swapnil from JM Financial.
A couple of questions, actually. One is with respect to the merger of Indore as a standalone business. So is that complete? And going ahead, will you be reporting the numbers as a merged entity? And second question is a bit on your investment strategy with respect to the investee portfolio. So we -- so in the food delivery space, we have Zomato as an investment and we also invested in DotPe, which, in a way, cater to the same category of -- they address the same program actually, which is delivery of food to the customers. And they are, in a way, a competitors to each other. So any thoughts on or any rationale behind these investments? And how do you look to these investments from your perspective?
Sanjeev, do you want to answer the first part first?
Let me answer the first part. So we are in the process of carrying out the legal integration. We are in the midst of it. We have had our shareholders' meeting and creditors' meeting. The second motion is also passed. Probably somewhere in July mid or maybe in August, I think the legal merger should be complete. And after that, it will become part of the system.As far as DotPe is concerned, look, it is not just a restaurant billing or improvised billing, remote billing app, contactless billing app. It is hard not to play. One use case is restaurants, but there are going to be several other use cases. So as a company evolves, we'll see more and more of that is happening. But yes, what has caught the media attention and there have been a couple of articles is because our NRAI is pushing not pay and promoting it and as an alternative. But no, DotPe does not deliver. We do not have a delivery feed. Dotpe is a contactless billing app, and it'll deliver the menu card and you can do it.
The next question is from Nancy Desai from Marcellus.
This is Salil from Marcellus. The question is any thoughts on how the blue-collar hiring space is shaping up? And if, say, the 2 COVID waves had, had any impact on the way hiring takes place in this segment? And what would be your strategy to play here?
So we've been test marketing a product job here in the NCR market for the last few months. runs have been encouraging. Early days, but clearly, what has changed in the last few years that everybody has a smartphone and has -- people have become digitally savvy. So it's very easy to get job seekers in the blue collar space onto your app, onto your platform. The harder part is actually getting the SMEs to use the platform to hire, which is what we've been working on. But I think that will also sort of become easier. Once SMEs also start digitizing, that'll also become easier. So I think fundamentally, now is there a viable business there? Is it possible to make money? Time will tell. But yes, I think the market is ready for blue collar, for a blue collar business now. Of course, there's a lot of competition. But like I said, we've sort of been test marketing in Delhi, NCR. We are happy with the results. Right now, we're not focusing on revenue. We are not basically trying to get the product market fit right. And once we are confident, then we would roll it out nationally as well, which I expect to happen over the next few months.
And just to clarify, you're saying the supply side is fine. It's the demand side that is where the problem is?
Yes.
The next question is from Manik [ Taneja ].
It's a very nice to talk to all of you again.There was just a small question. It's probably a little off the real subject. There's the whole retail market of a lot of investors who would like to invest in Info Edge, but it's at INR 5,000. It's not really within the reach of a whole lot of retail investors. So has there been any plan? Or is there any idea at all that you would like to split the stock and make it more accessible to the broader market.
Okay. We haven't discussed this. But look, it's -- thank you for the question. We will certainly at least discuss it. I'm not sure saying we'll do it, but we will discuss it. Whether it's a bonus or it's a stock split, we'll have to just figure out or we may do nothing. Let's see. But thank you.
Next question is from Arnav Kapur.
Can you hear me?
Yes.
I just wanted to understand, given that we have so many B2C and also B2B businesses and given the trend around super app, which has been working in China and many corporates and large corporates India are trying to replicate given that we work on the spectrum of basically the entire life cycle of a human being, do you see an opportunity to integrate them even though they're investments in different companies and strategic investments and some of them are our own to build that kind of an ecosystem where you are able to monetize cross leverage cross-sell, upsell across the various businesses? That's it.
No. I mean, to answer your question, there is no such plan. We don't think -- given the nature of our businesses, which are sort of life events, actually in the likes of most people. It's not as if people are on our platform every day of their lives or one of our platforms every day. We don't think they sort of lend themselves to the idea of a super app. And we would therefore rather sort of let each business figure out its own strategy rather than distract them and sort of get them to work together at the back end. So I mean, we've discussed this, there were times in the past, but it's not on the agenda. And by the way, in my view, it's very, very hard to build a super app for everyone, not just for us.
I totally agree. I mean there could be just opportunities in cross-selling, like in insurance and other things, which you can come from building a database. The other question was answered on...
Actually, I'll just comment on that. See, in the past, we also thought you can sell -- you know in your resume form in Naukri who's single, who's married when you pick up that data. So maybe you can sell different services. But when we actually promote it when we acquired June 31, right, and we try to promote it, people were mad at us.So although we're technically allowed to do it, we had the rights, we stopped doing it. So the truth is when you're looking for a job, you're not looking for a house and you're not looking for a spouse. No, it's somewhat -- even though your demographic may be the same. And it's about what you're looking for when you're looking for it. So cross-selling is harder than it sounds is what we have learned.
So in case there are more questions, please raise your hand. That was the last for the moment. So Vivek, there are no more questions coming in. So you want to take it ahead?
So on behalf of Info Edge, we conclude this...
One question have come, sorry. I may taking that The question is from [ Ajay Tyagi ].
Just one quick question. We've been hearing about the fact that even the private sector will have to post their jobs on a government total now. Can you throw some color on that? Is that expected to have any impact on our business?
Not really. We've been hearing stuff like this for the last 15 years. It's not really material. I hear still, now. And of course, every state has its own sort of plan. And we continue to engage with some of these governments. Now it's possible that some sort of states will take it more seriously than other states. But -- Right now, we don't see it -- see any background for this one. And I guess if they do it, they'll probably do it for blue collar jobs...
Ajay, where are you picking that from?
I think it was there in some of the newspapers recently.
Okay, we'll deal with it.
Over eras, we've engaged in many state comments on subjects like these. I mean nothing has ever materialized. And my sense is, whenever we engage with them, they are more focused on the idea of blue collar job seekers and sort of helping them get jobs than on white collar sort of job seekers.
Sure. No, it was, I think, in one of the dailies. Maybe Sanjeev, I'll forward that to you just to see if it's again , like ,one of those things which has been happening on and off? Or is there anything more tangible that.
Actually, in many, many states there already is a law that if you have -- see it's mandatory to notify local employment exchange. But nobody does it because we don't see too much value in doing it, and the government does not go after them. So that seems to be an archaic provision, which is there, but it's not used or implemented. But I mean, different states are different and who knows. Tomorrow is a new day.
And by the way, in the past, we've also helped state governments put some of these platforms together. I don't want to name them, but we work with a couple of them to sort of help them also. But for some reason, these things have never taken off.
We have one more question from Zara [indiscernible].
Yes. Sorry I was on mute. Can you hear me?
Yes.
So I had a couple of questions. When you think of your core business, is it just the verticals you're in right now? Or are you open to the larger universe, if you will, of the classifieds business? Like, are you open to other segments?
Yes. So right now, we are mostly focused on the segments we are in, which we think are very large with -- jobs and careers, for example, is a large category. We mostly play in the white collar job seeker space. We are now -- we need look at blue collar, we need to look at [ ATSS ], with different software, different services. But right now, most of our business comes from the right color sort of sourcing space. Similarly, 99acres, like I mentioned earlier, we are now beginning to look at 99acres as 4 different verticals. -- the rental business is very different from the resale business, the resale business is very different from new homes, and it's very different from commercial. In Shiksha, which is our education business, we started a study-abroad sort of business within the Shiksha business, which is a separate sort of game altogether. So I think in the verticals we operate there are sort of many opportunities, which we would rather go after first. But yes -- but we are not close to the idea of starting a fifth vertical, especially if it's in -- if we have -- if you understand this space. So classified is something we understand and appreciate and we know we can run classified businesses. So if a good opportunity comes our way in the classified sort of space, we will definitely evaluate it.
So if you were looking at it, when you say that's your specialized skill, if you will, how does that actually translate for a new space, if at all, it had to. Like if you were looking at the space, what are the sort of necessary conditions, if you will, for a classifieds business to succeed? Some of these -- sorry, go on.
Sorry, you want to complete the question?
No. Because like some of the -- I mean, in fact, most of the businesses that you're in, in your classified space, they are growing at a certain scale -- at a certain rate, if you will, and they've always been sort of markets of scale, right? But it's not like you're able to rush the pace of growth beyond a point. And organic and a nice slow and steady -- not slow, but like relatively speaking, compared to the size, it has been your style forever. So I'm just sort of trying to understand just that and is it inherent in the nature of classifieds for it to not be pushed to grow beyond the point? And also, like I said, what would be the necessary conditions, if you will, when looking at another space?
So every category is different. So let's take jobs, for example. Now if India starts growing at, whatever, 70% per annum for the next few years, the Naukri business could start growing at 30%, 40% per annum, right? I mean we are already seeing that kind of growth, for example, in IT, right, because IT markets are hot right now. So it's not as a classified business cannot grow at...
No, no. Yes, I've been sort of tracking your company since you listed at some level. So I understand that. I'm just sort of -- trying to sort of understand. I mean you can -- it does not constrain your ability to grow in other areas is what I'm trying to get at, and therefore, if you're looking at other markets.
So we are not actively considering entering other sort of verticals right now. Like I said, our focus -- we have more focus on entering adjacent -- verticals adjacent to the ones we already operate in right now. So we would rather do a careers platform than do a car portal. We would rather do -- spend more time and money on building our a rental platform inside 99acres than something else.
So when you say than, what is -- what sort of -- why are you rejecting it? Is it simply because you feel that the bandwidth you have is adequate only to cater to what you're in right now? Or is it because you keep saying cars, but cars is probably more sort of from a capital allocation perspective is not the kind of business you'd be in. So I'm just wondering if there's an evaluation criteria there? Or is it just no, let's stick to adjacent stuff?
No. So we are not -- like I said, we're not close to the idea. But see, 2 or 3 things have to happen -- have to sort of be in place before we start a fifth vertical. One is that the market should be large -- addressable market should be large. We don't want to enter into many small markets. Two, we don't want to have -- I mean it's very, very hard to displace an incumbent, which is if the incumbent is already very strong. So we would not want to enter markets where there are strong sort of players already, right? And if -- and any space we enter into, we should have something you need to offer to the customer. something unique, something relevant, which others are not doing. Otherwise, it doesn't make any sense. So the truth is that there are lots of startups today and they're all trying a bunch of things. Most regular or sort of categories are already taken. They are already established players, and they've been added for a while and they're pumping in tons of money. So we -- for us to enter a new category, like I said, the offering has to be unique. The market has to be large. We have to be early. There should not be too many established players because that makes it virtually impossible. So these criteria have to be met for us to -- before we start a fifth vertical.
Okay. All right. Fair enough. That's helpful. And just on the other side, on the investment, the AIF fund or -- just wondering if this is -- I know it's again very early days, and you've talked about how you need patient capital and it takes 10 years to build a business. But are you really looking at possibly having a venture fund business as a vertical sometime in the future, 8 years out?
Look, the EIF is a venture fund business. It's just that we only have 2 LPs, okay? We only have got 2 LPs that's Info Edge and Temasek, right?.
Right. But is that...
We are -- as of now, the thinking is that we are unlikely to go down the path of raising larger and larger funds with 20 LPs and 10 LPs and 30 LPs. We want -- we're happy with 1 likeminded LP in addition to Info Edge, where both are patient, both are perpetual capital and both have a long-term view in India. So see, if you look at, historically, exits in early stage investments in India have been hard and difficult. So strategic -- if you leave our chip card, strategic sales have not happened at any kind of valuation, which will give investors a lot of drive and we'll return the whole fund or something, right? That doesn't happen. And from early stage from first check to IPO often takes 12, 13, 15 years. We were the fastest at 6 years, and we were good and lucky. I think it might took 10 years. I think just [ DIET ] would have taken about, what, 17, 18, 20 years. I think India math took about maybe 20 years, I think math will take 20 years. So you've got to have really patient capital. Now if your regular venture fund is 8 plus 2 years, it doesn't cover the distance from first check IPO, and therefore, venture funds in India, very many of them have had a hard time if they invest early stage in getting great exits, and that's not so easy. -- which is why our fund is 12 plus 2 years. And which is why only has 2 LPs and both have a noncompete. That's why tomorrow, if you don't want to exit at the end of 14 years, then you can just devolve the shares to LPs if the assets are good.
Yes. No, I get that, Sanjeev. But I just wanted to know if what happens 5 years later? Or I mean, just what is the -- if at all, there is or this is still just the first fund and you will see how it plays out? Or is there some kind of within the framework that you've created in terms of 8 plus 2 is not enough. And so on your terms, but -- is there an intent to then venture into that space? Or is it always going to be...
We have already ventured in the space. There is a...
No, I mean in terms of growth.
Well, look, the intent is obviously we will likely do more funds should the experience be good.
The next question is from Arpit Shah from Stallion.
So this is Amit Jeswani here for Arpit Shah. Sir, my question is about reinvestment. We are sitting on INR 3,000 crores of cash on books. And we've not been able to reinvest. The opportunity, corona is now coming to an end, hopefully, -- And yet, we are not able to reinvest the cash flows. The interest that we would be getting with 5% yield is about INR 150 crores, we'll be getting INR 750 from Zomato. Your cash next year will be near INR 4,000 crores. Keeping in FDs is not good capital allocation. What is our capital allocation strategy? And how are we not -- are we controlling up for more when other people are making so much money?
Chintan, do you want to address that? I think Chintan is already invested, but let's have your version now.
So look, cash has always been central to our strategy, right? We can use it as a defensive strategy. We can also use it as an offensive strategy. Last year, when we went ahead and did the QIP, thinking about raising money, about trying to do an inorganic growth has always been there in the past 2, 3 years inside the organization. We have been thinking about it. We have been preparing ourselves for it, right? And accordingly, it's not so much about COVID, but the thinking was already there. So we went ahead and we raised money and we are still open. We have kind of set out the messages saying that, yes, we do want to look at the large acquisition. If that happens in any of the 4 verticals that we operate in, we are happy to look at it. We are also happy to look at some of the strategic minority stake in adjacencies or any of the differentiated business model, which can help us to readdress the market that we are addressing or kind of create some kind of synergies with the product that we are offering or create more moats for our businesses, we are open to look at that as well. Now as you know that this type of strategic investments or acquisition does take time, and we have been saying that we need to be patient about it. So that's what it is all about. So -- So certainly, we are open to look at on the ideas, and we are open to look at the inorganic growth opportunities. And that's why we are keeping the capital.
So Chintan, just one question. Since like we've seen companies like Baidu on the EdTech space, which you are present in they have scaled up. But so many start-ups, which are like something which is outside your space, something like dream level. What is stopping us to buying these unicorns as well? Like what is our thinking behind it? Do we want to make the INR 5,000 crore acquisitions, or we are open to $100 million to $200 million acquisition as well? Just -- I want to understand the reinvestment strategy exactly.
So look, as long as anything is around our 4 key verticals that we are operating in, it could be an early stage or it could be later stage, right? As long as it makes sense and the asset is good. Again, I'm saying that the idea of raising money was not to look at some distressed asset and do some kind of financial arbitrage and gain value out of it. But it's all about how do we build strong businesses. And each of these categories that we operate in, we think that in the long run, they are all large multibillion kind of categories, and we want to gain leadership in that. If something is going to help us to gain leadership in these 4 verticals, we are open to look at it. As earlier, it also indicated, we are not close to the fifth vertical idea, but that's right now not on the team.
Sir, just last 1 question, sorry. What is our expected IRR on the INR 3,000 crores of cash that we already hold and probably INR 4,000 crores next year if we don't invest? So what is the IRR we, investors, should expect from that kind of -- like what's your expected IRR on the reinvestments that you have right now, the cash that we are sitting on.
It depends what we do with it, right? If we actually deploy it to buy assets or to invest in companies or to invest in our internal businesses. There is 1 IRR. Now quite honestly, that's a hard spreadsheet to pull off because it will be friction going to be friction. You can't -- we cannot -- with that money, it'll be friction, right? Now however, we don't utilize it, it will be fixed on the era, which is whatever post tax, 3%, 3.5%, I don't know what it is.
So that was the last after a gap of many questions. So we may wait for a minute or so in case there are any questions as we'll wrap it up. We have 1 question. So next question is from [ Ariz ].
Yes, I just wanted to check, do you have anything in the health care vertical?
Look, we have invested in 1 company called Medcords from the balance sheet, which is into rural health care. We keep looking at health care. But health care, it's a hard business model, most business models of health care -- I mean, we can't figure out how they'll make money, how we'll make it financially viable. And when we see something good, we'll do it. So it's not as if we are close to it, but we haven't made a big, big deep foray into health care just yet.
So we don't have any more questions as of now.
To add one more thing. I'd like to add one more thing. We have also made an investment from the AIF in the company called Truemeds Healthcare. It's a pharmaceutical distribution company.
So with this last question on behalf of Info Edge, we conclude this conference. Thank you, everyone, for joining in. You may now disconnect your lines.
Thank you so much. Bye-bye.
Thank you, everyone, and have a good evening.
Thank you.