CE Info Systems Ltd

NSE:MAPMYINDIA

Earnings Call Transcript 2023-Q4

[Operator]

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the C. E. Info Systems Limited Q4 and FY '23 Earnings Call hosted by DAM Capital Advisors Limited. [Operator Instructions]. Please note, this conference is being recorded.

I now hand the conference over to Mr. Anmol Garg from DAM Capital. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

[Anmol Garg, analyst]

Thank you, Davin. Good afternoon, everyone. On behalf of DAM Capital, we welcome you all to Q4 FY '23 Conference Call of C. E. Info Systems, better known as MapmyIndia. We have with us Mr. Rakesh Verma, Co-Founder and CMD of the company; Mr. Rohan Verma, CEO and Executive Director; Mr. Anuj Jain, CFO of the company; and Mr. Saurabh Somani, Company Secretary and Compliance Officer.

I'll now hand over the call to Mr. Verma for his opening remarks. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

[Rakesh Verma, executive]

Thanks, Anmol. And on behalf of MapmyIndia, I would like to welcome all the participants in this earnings call. We have already submitted our investor presentation to the stock exchange, which I hope many of you might have gotten a chance to look at.

I would like to start saying that, one, we are privileged to have you all as investors or analysts or fund managers who are participating in our journey. I'll start saying that I'm very happy to report to all the shareholders that the MapmyIndia had a very good year 2023, a stellar year, I can say, without hesitation, where revenue went up 41% to INR 282 crores, the PAT went up 24% to INR 108 crores year-on-year. EBITDA margin, we maintained at 42%. With these 3, you can see that the revenue, which was -- which had grown 31% a year before, has gone up to 41% growth and the PAT -- EBITDA margin also at 42%.

A few of the items I would like to bring a highlight for your information that during this year, the year we are talking about, MapmyIndia is making quite a big investment, an organic investment, in the IoT business. While we are doing that, and I'll let you know a few other things that have happened. While the 42% margin is well maintained, the Map-led business, which is the core business, had a healthy EBITDA margin of almost 52%.

IoT business, we are looking at in a very positive way because while there are almost 280 million to 300 million vehicles on the road, we believe that the total addressable market where it is so large, we need to address that market and become the leader in this space also, so Map and IoT together is what our business has become today and will continue to be our business in the coming times.

Just to give you one small statistics, that in the 9 months of last fiscal year, while our EBITDA margin from the IoT-led business was 1%, it grew to 4% in the Q4 of FY '23. And this has been possible because the SaaS revenue or the SaaS income has started kicking in.

The exciting aspect of the IoT-led business is that while we sold 1.9 lakh IoT devices in fiscal year '23, more than 3x that of fiscal year '22, there is a potential addressable market of 20 crore vehicles or 200 million vehicles or 300 million vehicles in that range that can be tapped in future showing the large headroom there is for MapmyIndia's IoT-led hardware and SaaS business.

So this, I wanted to say it very clearly that we are on the right track on -- in the area, which is a hardware-led, still, we have made it profitable in its first year of operations itself.

With that, I would like to hand over the mic to Rohan, let him explain how the business is going to shape up in the times to come.

[Rohan Verma, executive]

So thanks a lot, Mr. Verma. It's a pleasure to be on this call with all of you. Like Mr. Verma said, we had a stellar year, 41% growth, INR 282 crores for FY '22. It was broad-based, meaning consumer tech and enterprise digital transformation was up 48% to INR 130 crores. And A&M, Automotive & Mobility Tech revenue was up 34% and to INR 152 crores.

Keep in mind that a few things that we have beat out the automotive industry growth itself which was less than 20%, while our own Automotive business has grown more than 40%. On the IoT side, also, as Mr. Verma has said, 140% year-on-year growth. So on all counts, A&M has done quite well.

Quarterly, the dynamics was that if you look at quarter year-on-year, which we never suggest, our business is an annual business, but even in case somebody wants to look at it, then when you see Q4 of this year versus previous year Q4, you see a 2% growth. The reason is if you go back to Q3 FY '22, there was a semiconductor shortage, and that pushed up artificially Q4 of FY '22. And in any case, Q4 is a seasonally weak quarter of FY '23. In any case, I hope that helps people understand the A&M dynamics at play.

C&E, of course, continues to grow quite strong. It's grown at 48%. 1.9-plus million vehicles when built in with MapmyIndia Mappls, up from 1.3 million. A lot of upselling is happening. We were also successful in gaining a lot more orders on the automotive front, even the mobility front, I'll talk about it. And so that brings me to the open order book.

Open order book has grown spectacularly to INR 918 crores, 31% up from INR 699 crores at the beginning of the year. And this was based on annual new order bookings of INR 512 crores, plus we added 250 plus customers, B2B and B2B2C customers. Not all of our customers' acquisition reflects in our open order book because a lot of it is subscription-based or transaction-based where since we don't have the contractual volume from the customer, but we will get paid based on the consumption or as their usage increases, so that doesn't reflect in our open order book.

So actually, getting these 250-plus customers going up from 600 plus to 850-plus and doing the INR 512 crores new order bookings shows that the business development in the year is going to set a stage for the future.

And also just finally on the -- I wanted to share that, look, in this coming year, there are a few things also that we will be incubating some potentially large yet unlocked opportunities for our company. One is in the space of the consumer app and gadgets with Mappls App and Mappls Gadgets getting rave reviews from consumers, I think anybody using Mappls App will say it is much better than Google Maps. Only thing was Google Maps went preloaded, but now the Competition Commission has also ruled against them, that regulatory change is going to happen plus by creating more brand and visibility for us, it will have a positive knock-on effect on our business.

So we have some good plans for consumer space in the time to come and gadgets itself as part of IoT, as Mr. Verma said, the SaaS revenue kicking in leads to that.

Additionally, the drone space also we will incubate and explore. It's a fast-growing market. We have now built up the capability of full stack providing drone hardware, but also drone services and also drone-based data analytics and solutions. We are doing this both organically and through our inorganic investment. And so we can take -- and we are already winning a lot of drone business. So that's something that will grow in the time to come. And of course, we'll continue to invest in the products and platforms.

So I mean, if you look at the quarterly kind of -- sorry, the financial year EBITDA margin, PAT margin, I think the numbers are there. I want to call out that our ex-cash ROCE, return on capital employed, is 122%. And just also to give a sense to people over the course of the history of the company, we have raised just INR 124 crores in the company. And if you just look at cash, also that has grown from INR 381 crores to INR 485 crores, anybody can see that we are highly capital efficient. And the reason is 28 years of building digital products and platforms, being deep tech from the top management downwards has helped us create competitive products, which is not easy to replicate.

I think if you look at the Map-led and IoT-led business, we've already talked about how that's growing fast. Map-led business is majority of our open order about INR 700 crores out of the INR 900 crores. So you can see that the Map-led business was also set to grow fast in the time to come. A lot of customer wins across Automotive & Mobility Tech, I'll leave it for Q&A. Similar for Consumer Tech and Enterprise, a lot of customer wins, as I said, BFSI, NBFC, Fintech, Social commerce, D2C and of course, key strategic government wins.

So I think with that probably last point on the customer diversification. Now 54 customers form 80% of our revenue. Earlier it was 35% and the year before, it was 25%. So you can start seeing that customer diversification is also there and retention stays high at 91% and 250 plus, as I said, we added customers, and we've given our employee breakup, et cetera. To give you a sense, we are now 1,170 employees, mostly technical, 900 plus technical. And somebody was commenting that in less than 1,000 technical people, you have generated INR 100 crore plus of profit. This is a reality and we are an outlier in that. Our attrition is 16.9%. I think it's well in control.

So with that, we'll open up to questions, I think.

[Operator]

[Operator Instructions]. The first question is from the line of Anmol Garg from DAM Capital.

[Anmol Garg, analyst]

So I had a couple of questions. Firstly, I wanted to understand the growth dynamics in the Auto segment, ex of the IoT hardware business. So ex of the IoT hardware the growth in the Auto segment looks a bit muted of around 13%, 14% versus strong volume sales that we have done of around 46% growth, from the [ NK ] solutions. I'm talking about FY '23. So just wanted to understand that, has there been any change in the realization in the Auto business? Yeah. That will be my first question.

[Rohan Verma, executive]

Anmol, no, that's not right information. IoT is not all A&M. IoT is partial in A&M and partial in C&E. Our Auto business is quite strong. It's growing quite fast. So it's definitely much more there. We don't break it out specifically as an end customer type, but it's grown, I mean at least 30%. So and volume, definitely has grown 46%, you're right. Industry volume is anyways less than 20%. So you see our attach rate going up. But -- and there are 2 wheelers also which are going live with our solutions. So more and more two-wheeler customers are also there. But at the same time, the 4-wheeler customers have also increased. And we are doing a bunch of upselling.

And like I said, our open order book on the Map-led part is about INR 700 crores. A bunch of new EV platforms of big 4-wheeler companies have started the work, which will go live next year. We are upselling DaaS, connected services. So I mean, we're quite bullish on the Automotive part of our business.

[Anmol Garg, analyst]

Thanks, Rohan for the clarity. Just secondly, I wanted to have more of an outlook-based question on both Auto IoT and the consumer business for next year. Any particular guidance that you are giving from the growth perspective for the next year?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

See, what Mr. Verma said in the beginning that, look, you saw a couple of years ago what our growth was in revenue, but you also started to see our order book go up. Then last -- previous year, you saw 31% revenue growth. You saw what open order book growth was. This year, you can see the open order book growth plus the new set of customers, and we had 40% revenue growth.

So for sure, we are looking at, at least doing that. And the growth will be -- across each of the segments, we see pretty strong, sustainable growth potential in each of our segments, be it Automotive, Corporate, Government, Retail, if I say, from a customer type point of view, or A&M and C&E from a market point of view.

So where we stand today, given our position of our products, our differentiation, our existing customer base and customer acceptance we think that we'll have -- we'll be able to do much better growth in the future and sustainably so.

[Anmol Garg, analyst]

Sure. Thanks, Rohan and just one last thing from my end, and then I'll join back in the queue. So just wanted to understand the normalized long-term margins that can be there in the IoT business. Right now, you said that it has already increased to 4-odd percent, right now. So maybe in a time period of 2 to 3 years, if you can highlight that what can be the margins into this business? And also part to that would be that now we have been highlighting that we are -- we want to go more towards the hardware business. So in that case, will our long-term margins be impacted because of that?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

I don't think we said that we are going towards hardware business. What we have said is IoT is a business where it is a hardware leg. What that means is, the moment you give -- it's like an investment today and the return is tomorrow. It's a customer acquisition. So if I give the hardware today, the cost comes today, definitely, but the SaaS kicks in maybe 6 months later, a year later. And then for the years to come, you start -- you have done 2 good things. One, you acquired a customer, whether the customer is a B2B or a customer is a consumer. And then you keep earning -- reaping in the SaaS revenue from him for a long time to come.

It's a very interesting business. It is with great effort that a year back, we decided that the best way for us is to treat it as an organic business only, because it also has a very good impact on the Map-led business.

So overall, what I would like to say, you're trying to understand what would be the normalized margin. What -- the way we look at it is what would be our normalized profit ultimately and the profit comes definitely not from margin as a percentage, but the profit also comes on what volume we create in terms of revenue.

So ultimately, what matters for the company, like last year, if we added INR 100 crores cash into the company through a profit of INR 108 crores, imagine that's the kind of power we are looking at. That's the way we are trying to run our business. Once you start appreciating this, it's a very new way -- another way of doing business.

[Operator]

The next question is from the line of Nitin Sharma from MCPro Research.

[Unknown Analyst]

So 2 questions. First of all, since you plan to focus on the consumer apps and gadgets side, is it fair to assume that your marketing budget is going to go up next year and if yes, then some guidance would be helpful.

[Rohan Verma, executive]

See, like we've said about marketing before, we definitely calibrate our marketing spend in line with whatever financial goals that we set for ourselves. So yes, we will invest more in marketing, but it will be aligned with the growth in any case that we are seeing of our overall business. So if I -- if we have given you a sense of where revenue will go in the next year and where margins, anyways we look at these margins at 40% above level, then you can imagine that how much already headroom we have for marketing because other costs don't go up that high in line with that. So definitely, we will increase our budgets on marketing.

But again, as we do everything, we will be quite capital-efficient and different in building a strong consumer franchise, app-led and gadgets-led, which will also have, like I said, a knock-on effect, a positive effect on the B2B business, too.

[Unknown Analyst]

Okay. Okay. And your CapEx seems to have gone up. Can you please help understand what is in there? How do you see going ahead? And then I have a very small bookkeeping question.

[Rohan Verma, executive]

I didn't understand, what you said, CapEx?

[Unknown Analyst]

Yes. Your CapEx, excluding acquisitions seems to have gone up. So help me understand what is in there? And how do you see it going ahead?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

The CapEx might have gone up a very little bit. It might be primarily for the computers and those kinds of things. But are you talking about the fixed asset?

[Unknown Analyst]

No, sir. So, your purchase of property plan investments have gone from INR 4 crores to INR 15 crores, I think in FY '23.

[Rohan Verma, executive]

So when we sell these devices, we also provide them on an OpEx model to customers where we rent out these devices, and we collect a larger fee per month for a longer time. It's actually more lucrative for us than just selling the device upfront sometimes. So there's a mix of selling and renting out. So when we rent out, then that goes as a fixed asset in our books.

[Unknown Analyst]

Understood. Understood. And lastly, just bookkeeping. Some color on what are these 250 customer additions, which are the segments, some breakup would be helpful.

[Rohan Verma, executive]

So large majority are corporates. Of course, in automotive, for which customers, it can be big depending on how sizable that OEM is. So we definitely added automotive OEMs as well. And the government, we pick and choose which customers we want to work with. So we've picked some strategic government organization at center, state and local level, but large majority of corporates, which is great, because that's where we can upsell as whole range and there's a lot more such businesses and -- that's what we do.

We look at which customers and which industry segments for which use cases we've already sold and then we upsell, cross-sell, do localize selling and that kind of creates that flywheel. That more customers, more use cases, we can sell that back to existing ones, et cetera. So mostly corporate.

[Operator]

The next question is from the line of Vimal Gohil from Alchemy Capital Management Private Limited.

[Vimal Gohil, analyst]

Sir, my first question is on your explanation around your IoT business and the SaaS revenue that follows the hardwares that you sell. And you said that there is a lag of about 6 months to 1 year until the SaaS revenue actually kicks in. So what really -- so my understanding was that once the IoT device is actually installed in the vehicle, the SaaS revenue should be kicking in immediately. So if you could just help us correct that understanding if it's right.

[Rakesh Verma, executive]

No. Your understanding is right. But the way it is happening is we are giving the devices in 2 ways, as Rohan just said, on a rental basis or as a sale of the hardware. Now on a rental basis, if I'm giving, yes, the SaaS revenue starts kicking in right away. If I'm selling the hardware, we might be selling it with some understanding with the customers that will charge you SaaS a year later.

[Rohan Verma, executive]

No. No. Either we bundle the SaaS with the hardware for 1 year.

[Rakesh Verma, executive]

Right. So, we may be bundling it with the SaaS, saying that for the 1 year, the subscription is free. And after that, you may be paying, I think that's the reality.

[Vimal Gohil, analyst]

All right. All right. So basically, the understanding is that now that's a change in my understanding. So basically, for 1 year, the SaaS revenues are typically free for -- and this would be typically for B2B customized?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

No, no, no. That is not right. I mean, that's not right. I mean we charge for hardwares and SaaS separately. In some case -- like a consumer, if you're as a consumers, you're going to buy it with a 1-year plan or a 3-year plan. So hence, the SaaS revenue from that will kick in later. But if you're an enterprise, we'll charge you for the hardware and the SaaS separately, and that will start kicking in from day 1.

So if you look at the SaaS revenue this year of IoT, out of the INR 60 crores, INR 17 crores has been SaaS revenue, INR 42 crores is Hardware. So you start getting a sense of how the SaaS revenue will add and then that Hardware base will generate more SaaS in the years to come. So I hope that helps.

[Vimal Gohil, analyst]

Yes. Understood, sir. And sir, on your margins, basically, if your SaaS is going to take some time to sort of kick in. And plus you also are going to invest in, as you said, in your consumer business, in drones, et cetera. Would it be fair to say that the exit rate of FY '23 will be a fair number to sort of look at, at least for the next couple of years?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

Like Mr. Verma said, we are looking to build a pretty large company, okay? I don't think we are optimizing for quarterly EBITDA. I think we are already 1 of the highest in the peer set of technology or otherwise also, 40% plus EBITDA margin, I'm not sure how many technology companies at least in the peer set. So we want to build a very large revenue-based company. On that, the absolute EBITDA growth, absolute PAT growth is what will determine in our opinion, the success of the company like generating cash every year. Those are the things we are looking at.

So the margin, we are looking at 40% plus, okay? That has been the track record, but if we -- on the EBITDA side, but we would like to have the ability to go after larger and larger opportunities. I think it's in the interest of the company while doing it responsibly to go after the large TAMs that are out there.

[Operator]

The next question is from the line of Sameer Pardikar from ICICI Direct.

[Sameer Pardikar, analyst]

Sir, a couple of book-keeping questions. The dip in the new order book because we have grown our new order book very strongly for last 3 years. There is some debts, but I'll bet it's very small 2% to 3%, but what extent is dipping the new order book for this year, sir?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

Yes. So the open order book is what determines the future kind of revenue. That has grown up to INR 918 crores from INR 699 crores. So that's grown 31%. The annual new order bookings, you have to look at in conjunction with the number of new customer acquisition also we have done, because a lot of the new customer acquisition we do, for example, in IoT, if we are -- when somebody buys the device or a customer comes on board, unless they are contractually obligated or they have given us a PO, we don't -- for the SaaS, we don't book that. As every month that they use, they will pay us.

So obviously, if they have paid upfront for our hardware, they will continue to pay for the subscription. Very -- I mean, all when APIs happen, based on the consumption of the user, as like you ask Alexa, that how far is the airport from you or where is the hospital nearby. She'll answer according to map point it is this. Like that every call we'll get paid. And so sometimes it's hard to predict and definitely, we don't -- in some cases, don't get that contract -- contractual obligation, but as they consume, we get paid.

So when you look at 250-plus customers, a lot of that potential revenue is not showing up in the -- neither in the annual new order booking and nor in the open order book. So overall, when you look at the business potential or outcome, you should look at both in conjunction for this year.

[Sameer Pardikar, analyst]

So do we see a recovery in this number from the current work that you have reported in FY '23? Or it will be more of a constant number for the next couple of?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

No, no. We are aspiration, forget it -- we don't cap our aspiration on order booking. Whatever best we can do, we do and the number turns out whatever it has to turn out. Our aspiration, obviously, every year is higher and higher, but we are sharing with you what we achieved in the past year. Of course, our aspirations on order bookings are much higher.

[Sameer Pardikar, analyst]

Sure. And second thing, I think last year, we -- out of INR 200 crores, we said that probably INR 80 crores has come from open order book, if I remember correctly. What is the follow-on number for FY '23, similar number for FY '23?

[Rakesh Verma, executive]

You mean out of 280, how much is from the open order and how much is from the?

[Sameer Pardikar, analyst]

Yes, we did disclose this number last year, so out of INR 200 crore of revenue...

[Rohan Verma, executive]

Out of INR 200 crore, INR 80 was from, what were you saying?

[Sameer Pardikar, analyst]

Open order? This was some number, if I remember correctly. So what is the corresponding number for FY '23?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

I think it's roughly half and half.

[Rakesh Verma, executive]

It was roughly half and half.

[Rohan Verma, executive]

We don't call it out in the investor deck. Maybe we answered it in the presentation or in the Q&A. But -- so I don't have the exact number, but it's roughly half and half. [indiscernible] order book, the execution is between 3% to 5%, 4% to 5%, that type of.

[Operator]

We have the next question from the line of Sameer Dosani from ICICI Prudential AMC.

[Sameer Dosani, analyst]

Just want to understand IoT business more. So what do you think would be the churn rate because you are running this business for the last 1 year now. What would be the ideal churn rate in this business now?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

We've been running it actually as MapmyIndia for last many years, actually almost, I would say, 7, 8 years, 10 years. But in the last 1 year, what we did by acquiring it was kind of an actually highest. We got -- we paid INR 13 crores and got a solid team about 125-odd people who as a company had generated INR 8 crores in that year. And we use that opportunity to strengthen our management and bandwidth to scale that business because now there was a full team and our own team. So if you look at now IoT-led business has about 350 or 380 people, I think we put it in the presentation.

And we had our sales revenue of about whatever INR 25-odd crores in that year. So our -- the objective is always to have nil churn. But of course, you will have some churn. And if you look at the SaaS revenue growing, you'll get a good sense of kind of that things are progressing well.

So now with scale, we will see what is happening to churn, I think we'll be better positioned to answer this in the next year or so.

[Sameer Dosani, analyst]

But now since we have run that -- running it for 7 years, what should we understand on the churn rate, 15%, 20%, what should be the churn rate? What's your estimate?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

I mean, you can just use that as a thumb rule for now, but again, I don't want to give you a specific number because it's not something that -- like I said, we look at this and share with you probably in the time to come, but I don't want to comment on it.

[Sameer Dosani, analyst]

No, no problem. And also now this IoT business is now at 4% EBITDA margins at the exit rate -- Q4 exit rate. What is the number of devices that would make you comfortable to reach at a company level margin in this business, because right now, it's a subscale business. And what is the kind of plan that you would have -- how many years would it take us to reach there at a company level margins in this business? And actually, since this business is much more profitable because of the SaaS offering, what should be the margin levels of this business once it's scaled to a level that we would have wanted to?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

I mean the Map-led is also pretty profitable. I don't know. We may have missed that, that this is -- I mean, the Map-led itself is also quite strong as a business. In IoT, you see the headroom for growth is quite high. So we are looking at what the absolute value of profits, EBITDA, et cetera, we can generate. Because the yearly margin is a bit of a function of how many new devices you put and what is the past SaaS revenue number becomes for that year. So it's -- it will be -- our growth aspiration for the IoT business each year will determine what's the -- that margin for that year is and this can be true even in future.

So but what will happen is, as you said, as the scale increases, the absolute contribution will continue to increase. Like this year, as we said this last quarter itself and this year, as we had predicted that we said absolute contribution will be there of this business at EBITDA level, which is true. So it will only grow.

[Sameer Dosani, analyst]

Okay. Okay. I understood. And next question is on the order book. If you look at order book, it has been consistent -- for the last 3 years, it has been consistently expanding the open order book number. Is the average duration in some way changing like, was it 3 years in 2021 and 2023, it's 4.5 years or 5 years. Is that what -- if you can comment on the average your order -- number of years, this order book represents over the last 3 years, it will be helpful.

[Rohan Verma, executive]

It's always a function of what type of orders and what contribution they have to the overall size and the aging, et cetera. So it's in that order of 4 or 4-plus years if you want to take it like that.

[Rakesh Verma, executive]

The issue that comes up here is we are saying that 3 to 5 years is kind of on an average or somehow we are just trying to give you a perspective. I mean, some orders could be just -- which may get consumed in 1 year. Some might get consumed in 2 years. Some might get consumed in 3 years. Some might get consumed in 4 years or 5 years. Now every year when we look at internally, we say that here is a INR 900-plus crores of orders that is available for us to consume, what will get consumed in fiscal year '24. Internally, we have worked out that number. And then we try to make sure that, that number is achieved during FY '24, plus the new orders that will keep coming during the year.

[Sameer Dosani, analyst]

Correct. No, I'm asking on an average level, like INR 920 crores is maybe 4.5 years FY '22 open order book represents 4 years. So I'm just trying to understand that.

[Rohan Verma, executive]

If I try to generalize it, it's very easy for me that I'll divide it by some number and say, 4 years, 3 years, 5 years. But every year, the same -- if I take that INR 900 crores, what is the impact -- forget about anything new, that INR 900 crores, what is this contribution going to be in FY year 1? And what will be it in year 2 and year 3 may vary, that is the challenge.

But overall, what you have seen that we have grown as a revenue from INR 200 crores -- INR 150 crores to INR 200 crores to INR 280 crores, and we are pretty bullish that there's no reason why the revenue growth will not happen -- will not be better than FY '23. That is based -- a lot of that is based on the confidence of the open order that we already have.

[Sameer Dosani, analyst]

Okay. Okay. Understood. Understood. And so this converts into a 40% growth guidance that we have been speaking about, right? So that's the overall color.

[Rakesh Verma, executive]

Yes, at least we are saying.

[Sameer Dosani, analyst]

Okay. All right. Thanks for that.

[Rohan Verma, executive]

Again, look at us year-to-date and on an annual basis, don't extrapolate for every quarter. I'm just using this opportunity.

[Sameer Dosani, analyst]

Just a small follow-up on this because if you look at a number of devices in A&M, Auto side, right, I think last year was a very good year for Auto, and we already are at 1.9 million vehicles, right? I'm not sure. I mean, at the Auto level, the growth would be lower next year, right? So the Auto industry would be growing at lower in FY '24. So how should we understand now, can we continue to grow at 40% and where does our confidence comes from in Auto at least?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

Yes. It will be a function of a few things. Auto, when we say Auto, we mean new vehicles, which are rolling out of the factory. Right? And 4-wheeler, 2-wheeler commercial vehicle, IC or EV and we can also sell Map-led or IoT-led. We have NK Solution, which we say for suite of solutions for OEMs. So there's a lot of upselling that we can do into new vehicles as well. So there is potentially a lot of upside. One is the steady state attach rates in the developed markets is like 50%, 60% take rate on the whole industry. So we are just touching like 9.5%, 10%. We have the majority of this market ourselves. So there's a lot of upselling that can happen from our side, which we will attempt to do both Map-led and IoT-led. So I think there's a lot of growth still remaining in the Automotive market. That's what's exciting to us.

[Sameer Dosani, analyst]

Understood. So overall, total vehicles sold 50%, 60% have maps, and we are at 9% to 10% of that, understood.

[Rohan Verma, executive]

No, no, no, no. I'm saying in developed markets. The attach rate, if you go, like in developed markets, not India, like sorry, international markets like Korea or U.S. or wherever, the attach rate of this category or stuff is like 50%, 60%. In India, we ourselves are at 9%. So you can see, and we are the majority of the market. So you can see what our upside can be. I hope that does clear this.

[Sameer Dosani, analyst]

Understood, understood. And industry level, this 9%, 10% would be how much, to get an idea?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

Again, internationally, it's 50%, 60%. In India, we are the market, now in India, in the automotive in case, who else is there?

[Operator]

The next question is from the line of Amar Maurya from AlfAccurate Advisors.

[Amar Maurya, analyst]

First thing, sir, in new order book, what would be the breakup between the Auto and Consumer Tech, the growth?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

It's about 60% A&M and 40% C&E. Yes, 60%, 65%.

[Amar Maurya, analyst]

60% would be Auto, right?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

Automotive & Mobility, yes.

[Rakesh Verma, executive]

60% 65% and 30%, 35%.

[Amar Maurya, analyst]

Okay. And when you say mobility, so basically, we are clubbing in this basically, the IoT part also?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

Some of the IoT is in Mobility -- A&M and some of it is in C&E. It's not one-to-one correlated. IoT is a product, whereas A&M is like market and C&E is [indiscernible]

[Amar Maurya, analyst]

Is it possible like in this new order, what would be, let's say, IoT component, is it easy to break up for you?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

Yes, like I said, out of the 918, about 700-odd is Map-led and about whatever, 20% odd or 18% or something, 15% to 20% is IoT-led, so.

[Amar Maurya, analyst]

And that -- this number would be kind of similar for the new order book also? 18%, 20% of the overall order book would be the IoT-led?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

I mean 20% of maybe -- we haven't broken it up like that A&M and C&E.

[Amar Maurya, analyst]

I got it. So sir, basically, if I see the C&E order book growth, I mean, it has basically seen some degrowth on a year-over-year basis. So any specific reason this year for this number to decline?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

I don't know. See, I don't know whether that's true or not.

[Rakesh Verma, executive]

How did you calculate for the degrowth?

[Amar Maurya, analyst]

So basically, sir, last year, if I see '22, the C&E number was INR 279 crores. And Auto new order book was INR 245 crores. So total new order book last year was around INR 524 crores, right?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

Yes. But we haven't broken up A&M, C&E order book. Looking at fixed and -- volume or what is it?

[Amar Maurya, analyst]

No, no, no, no. I'm talking about the absolute, last year, total new order book was around INR 524 crores, correct, sir?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

Right.

[Amar Maurya, analyst]

So in that INR 524 crore order book, INR 245 crores come from Auto and INR 279 crores was from the C&E.

[Rohan Verma, executive]

Did we publish that?

[Amar Maurya, analyst]

Sir, I think it was given. I don't know whether it was given in the publication or it probably during the meeting or something like that?

[Rakesh Verma, executive]

Maybe we can check it up some other time.

[Rohan Verma, executive]

We'll look up. We can always get back on this. But my point is that I cannot reiterate. C&E business is also growing quite fast, 250-plus customers added, not everything reflected in the new order book -- open order book. So I think we are fairly happy. Of course, with new orders, you can always be happier if you do better. But in general, I think it's been a good year.

[Amar Maurya, analyst]

Got that. Got that. So sir, how do you see basically -- I mean because as you said that the growth is partial from new order book as well as from the existing order book. So it is primarily divided 50-50 kind of. So basically, going into the next year, as you had added 250 kind of a customer in C&E, so should we see that accelerated new order book growth in '24?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

It would be more than -- yes, we are -- I mean, 250 customers are not just in C&E, it's across both, but yes, a lot of them are corporate. And this -- definitely we are running for faster revenue growth next year than what it was this year.

[Amar Maurya, analyst]

Okay. So I'm just trying to understand, should we like assume because sir, your new order book, if I see from '22 to '23 has largely remained flat. And if I see '20 to '21, there was like 50% kind of a growth or probably more than 50% kind of a growth. So going into '24, do you see extraordinary order book growth -- new order book growth because of what all accumulation we did in '23?

[Rakesh Verma, executive]

Order book Okay. Let me help you a bit. There's nothing that says that we cannot be both during '24 more than '23, there's nothing that says it won't, but the second part also, please understand that adding more customers like 250 more customers in the -- overall, which doesn't result into -- I mean that also is a sign that the order growth can happen.

So not just by order booking open order, but also the orders that happens during the year and gets consumed because of the nature of the business of APIs or devices like that.

[Rohan Verma, executive]

And also just to clarify the 245 number you're saying is for fixed pricing in FY '22. It's not for Automotive. Fixed pricing means we have this fixed kind of -- we are assured that value no matter what just by the flex of time, but -- and volume means based on volume, meaning that we are projected or contracted to achieve a certain volume, I mean, by the customer for which we will get paid as that volume happens. So it's -- just if you want to read that and understand that later.

[Amar Maurya, analyst]

Okay. Okay. Fine. And sir, like in terms of the -- as you indicated that the next year growth would be something around 40%. So in this 40%, if you can break it up, like how much would be from the Auto and how much it would be from the consumer tech enterprise business?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

I think we'll let that happen something and we'll let it unfold. I mean, see, you have a track record, not that it's a secret or anything. But the point is how things shape up in the years, what we do with the IoT-led business, it's not necessarily that we can predict everything. We have a sense based on our open order book where A&M and C&E will go, but also there's new order bookings and new sales to be done, right? So I can't exactly tell you a number. But you have a track record to reflect on.

[Amar Maurya, analyst]

Okay. Okay. So basically, what was trying to understand like this 40% growth confidence, I mean, is it coming from the existing kind of order book? Or is it also built with the new booking, which you are expecting to come, let's say.

[Rohan Verma, executive]

Part of it is coming from the open order book, to be honest. I mean, but. Yes, a lot of the confidence is coming from the open order book, plus, we believe that we'll do new order booking.

[Amar Maurya, analyst]

Okay. So then basically, sir, you would be like internally, you would be clear, right, from where the growth is largely going to be driven?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

Yes.

[Rakesh Verma, executive]

Yes. Like any company, we also make a plan and work out with a very fine detail so that the team starts working on that. And based on all that, the confidence has come that, yes, there is no reason why we will not have a revenue growth of at least 40%.

[Amar Maurya, analyst]

I got it. I got it. And sir, 1 last number, if it is possible to you. What would be, let's say, the full year Auto and Consumer Tech revenue, full year basis FY '23?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

Sorry, your question was last year, what was the C&E revenue?

[Amar Maurya, analyst]

Yes. I'm saying FY '23 full year basis, what would be the Auto and what would be the Consumer Tech revenues?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

Those numbers are there, INR 130 crores of C&E and INR 150 crores for A&M.

[Amar Maurya, analyst]

INR 150 crores for A&M and INR 130 crores for C&E.

[Operator]

The next question is from the line of Moez Chandani from Centrum Broking.

[MOEZ CHANDANI, analyst]

So my first question was on the E&M business. So we've been at the INR 40 crores sort of a revenue mark for the past 3 quarters. Right? And this is assuming that the Gtropy contribution, whatever is coming in A&M would have been increasing. So is it fair to say that ex of Gtropy, the A&M revenues will be declining for the past few quarters? Any color that you could add to that?

[Rakesh Verma, executive]

We have disclosed how much is the IoT-led business. In the presentation, it's there is very clearly the IoT-led business is how much, is INR 16 crores; and INR 222 crores or something for Map-led business. So it's not Gtropy, you can say IoT-led. Now IoT-led doesn't mean -- and out of that, we have also disclosed how much was devices and how much was SaaS. So there's nothing has gone down.

[Rohan Verma, executive]

Yes, see, Q4 is a seasonally weak quarter for us for Automotive. So I don't think, look at the trend on a sequential quarter basis, look at the years. And so, that's my....

[Rakesh Verma, executive]

I mean, I'll add a little bit more. Unfortunately, the more we try to look at sequentially or quarter-by-quarter, we are also unable to analyze that way. Somehow, our focus is very clear for the year to achieve. We have set a goal for ourselves last year in the beginning of the year that we must attain 40% of revenue growth, we must attain -- actually, it was like this that we must cross this 3-digit or INR 100 crore milestone for the profits. Like that, we set up. So this quarter-by-quarter is something which we have to keep working every day, I know. And when we add up the quarter, it becomes the year that's known. But we don't mess up too much that shifting from this quarter to that quarter.

[MOEZ CHANDANI, analyst]

Sure. Okay. My next question was on the consumer business. So you did launch your Mappls Gadgets sometime in February. So any -- has there been any revenue contribution from that? And are you expecting any significant revenue contribution from that segment in FY '24?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

Yes. See, Mappls Gadgets, we publicly launched it, but we've been selling it through the distribution network. So the retail outlets, car showrooms, car accessory shops or the automotive, German accessories root for a while now. With Mappls Gadgets now the brand and promotion and marketing and then the online stuff will also start kicking in. So -- and of course, we will expand distribution. So I mean, a, it's already doing well, but b, yes, in this year, we will look to expand the visibility, reach, and sales of Mappls Gadgets in a big way. It's fact. And that's what is one of the aspects of kind of what growth we are seeing.

[Operator]

We'll take the next question from the line of Pooja Ahuja from Monarch Networth Capital.

[Pooja Ahuja, analyst]

So firstly, I wanted to understand earlier in your interview today, you mentioned that INR 60 crores is the revenue from Gtropy, but when I look at your presentation, it's the entire IoT business revenue. So just wanted to understand what's the share of Gtropy here?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

No, no, I didn't say at all, INR 60 crores was Gtropy. I said IoT-led, some of that might have come from Gtropy -- I mean, a large part would have come from Gtropy, but some would have come from [indiscernible] also. So just for clarity say, IoT-led is INR 60 crores.

[Pooja Ahuja, analyst]

Right, sure. So since it's INR 60 crores, it's almost like 20% of your revenue for the full year. I wanted to understand where do you see this share going in the next couple of years? And in that case, what could be the impact? Because if the share is increasing in maybe the next couple of years, we could see margins compressing and then probably we could see as SaaS revenue picks up the impact coming on -- the positive impact sort of coming on the margin. But maybe in the next couple of years, you could see margin decline.

[Rohan Verma, executive]

The scale, there's operating leverage in each of our businesses, even in the Map-led business, right? So as the Map-led business close, that will also contribute to margins and that has its own strong outlook, which is that you're seeing that in the INR 700 crore open order book for Map-led.

IoT, I mean, we see a large headroom for growth, so we will go after, but we'll keep in mind what margins we want to have. But again, IoT might grow faster or might grow in line with the company. I don't want to predict where the exact shares will be. But overall, at least for the upcoming years, we can give a sense.

[Operator]

The next question is from the line of Anirudh Agarwal from Valuequest Investment Advisors.

[Anirudh Agarwal, analyst]

On the Auto segment, I'm sorry to keep harping on this, but I'll just ask it straight, has there been any pricing pressure that you're seeing in any of the Automotive & Mobility revenue, right? Because in your quarter where overall industry volumes seem to have grown, we have degrown Auto revenue ex of IoT. So that was kind of hard to understand. So is there any pricing pressure that you're seeing?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

I think I explained again, I don't know why this question is coming that Auto degrown ex-IoT. All IoT does not fall in A&M, it's partial in A&M, partial in C&E and also the second thing is quarter-on-quarter is not the right way to look on MapmyIndia's business, especially Auto.

So I mean, it's not just Auto, in general. So this -- if you look at it, yes, volume growth has been from 1.3 million to 1.9 million. Even 2-wheelers are going as a contribution of this thing. But doesn't mean 4-wheelers not, so I would like to dispel that notion that Auto revenue.

[Anirudh Agarwal, analyst]

When you say, look at it on a year-on-year basis, the overall A&M revenue growth is at 2%, right? And obviously, the IoT revenue growth...

[Rohan Verma, executive]

I explained already, if you were talking about Q4 year-on-year, I explained that whole semiconductor shortage, Q3 of FY '22 causing Q4 of FY '22 to be higher on artificially -- year-on-year is 34%, which has grown. So where is the question of degrowth?

[Anirudh Agarwal, analyst]

Okay. I'll take it offline. But overall, industry volumes, Q4 to Q4 have grown, right, that's why the question was largely coming from and ideally the attach rate should only have increased versus the last year, given what's happening on SUVs and E 2-wheelers, right?

[Rakesh Verma, executive]

Can I request you to also to please do whatever you want to ask, ask, there is no problem we are there to answer. But do the annual analysis rather than this quarter-by-quarter analysis. Honestly, we also try to avoid it, because it's not the way we are running the business. We are running the business to ensure that on an annual basis, what we've set ourselves for the goals, we try to achieve that. We do not set our goals for quarters.

[Anirudh Agarwal, analyst]

No, right. Absolutely understand that, that's okay. My next question was on the IoT-led. So if my understanding is correct, I mean, largely, the IoT revenues will be coming from the B2B segment currently, right?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

Some of it comes from B2C also, but -- the Mappls Gadgets.

[Anirudh Agarwal, analyst]

Okay. Understood. So my question is largely coming from the fact that, obviously, given that B2B 1 year SaaS is free. So the margins will optically look lower right now if a larger share of revenue is from B2B. But if I remember from the last discussion, we were seeing that SaaS revenue was 30%, 35% of the hardware revenue, if I remember, right? So ideally, the objective would be that as B2B hardware keeps growing, SaaS keeps kicking in and then the margins here kind of increase, because you said IoT growth will also not be significantly higher with this company growth going ahead like it has been in the last couple of years.

[Rohan Verma, executive]

You're right about the first part. The second part, I said that it's -- what's the IoT-led growth will be, our IoT-led business will decide and we'll do that in the overall structure, how much growth we want to have. The headroom is quite high. We can go after even larger growth. We could have even gone after larger growth in this last year of the IoT. But we consciously want to also keep some fiscal guardrails. So it will be a question of how much we calibrate, how much growth we want to go after for the IoT. And if we feel that we can do that in a way, which we do, we are quite bullish on this. We will continue to invest behind the growth of that business. It is already reaping good results.

[Anirudh Agarwal, analyst]

Got it. And final question on the order inflows during this year. So and the new customers, the acquisition that you're talking about. So is the mix of new customers that you're acquiring now materially different versus what you were doing earlier? And hence, those numbers are not reflecting in the contractual order inflows?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

No. Not -- I mean, of course, the mix of the business will change when IoT is becoming a larger part, but it's when you lock in a customer for a particular contract for longer term, they can also ask for some more discount, right? Whereas if you allow the customer to have the flexibility, then they'll give you a higher rate. And when we know that their usage is only going to grow, so I mean, it's a little bit how we mutually agree with the customers.

For us, we want to get the customers where we can not just sell the service that we have contracted to sell them but upsell them also. So that's why I said look at it holistically, but material change, we are adding on to our business. It's not -- there's no material change for us. So we are adding on a focus on IoT to our overall consolidated business.

[Operator]

The next question is from the line of Pratyush Agarwal from White Oak.

[Pratyush Agarwal, analyst]

Sir, just 1 clarification on the growth of 40% number, right? So this 40% number I'm assuming from currently what we are seeing is the organic component. We're not building in any kind of inorganic element in this number, right?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

No.

[Pratyush Agarwal, analyst]

Sure. And also sort of to better understand Gtropy, right, so when we did the acquisition FY '21 number, Gtropy was doing something like INR 8 crores a year, right? And right now, the previous comment, you sort of made that IoT is roughly INR 60 crores, Gtropy will be a significant part of that. Let's say, it's INR 30 crores, so I mean, sort of I want to understand what has happened that we've been able to sort of almost 4x it in a short period of time, if you could just answer that.

[Rohan Verma, executive]

Yes. Yes, correct. So I mean, of course, we have moved a lot of our operations for IoT or the device, et cetera, all the hardwares to the Gtropy as a company. So Gtropy has its own customers, which are independent of C.E. Info. MapmyIndia is the parent company and it has its own customers independent of us, but MapmyIndia has many customers. Still who we sell IoT too, but when we get that order, we then subcontracted out to Gtropy. In the consolidation, obviously, it doesn't matter. It gets net off. So hence, that's why we are using this word IoT-led to give you a sense of kind of -- so that's one.

And the second is really the -- this is why we wanted to actually -- it's kind of an actually higher we did, you can think of. We paid INR 13 crores. This was a solid team, which had a full organization, cross-functional, generating INR 8 crores. But obviously, they didn't have cash. They didn't have that cash to either sustain or to grow.

MapmyIndia has a pretty strong cash balance of INR 484 crores. So we could help them be a bit freer and go after the larger market and it also freed up some management bandwidth or bandwidth at our end within the core company, where the operations was being taken care of by a focused team procurement, et cetera, all that hardware cost engineering. And our team could be freer in terms of going and getting the business from our existing set of customers. So I mean it's been a very thought out integration of Gtropy over the last 15 months.

I mean, Mr. Verma has taken a personal kind of focus on enabling this integration to go well. And I mean this is just generally the method that MapmyIndia as a company, has followed for 28 years, being methodical, deliberate, et cetera, in trying to create a sustainable growing business.

So I mean, we are happy that within the first year itself, we could turn it in the way that we were thinking and it's setting up a good platform for the time to come, and we are quite bullish on IoT and Gtropy.

[Pratyush Agarwal, analyst]

Sure. And just sort of a follow-up, right? So in the current structure, as it stands, the Gtropy part of, let's say, whatever revenue that you are able to isolate would mostly be on the A&M part. Is that a fair understanding?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

It will be a mix of A&M and C&E.

[Pratyush Agarwal, analyst]

Okay. And what would be the rough split, if you could help with that?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

I don't have it off hand.

[Rakesh Verma, executive]

We can later let you know if you get in touch with us.

[Operator]

The next question is from the line of Vidyadhar Ginde from Sohum Asset Managers.

[Vidyadhar Ginde, analyst]

So my first question is, you have indicated in the last quarter in your interview to CNBC today also that you guiding about 40% revenue growth over 40% margin. So would you be confident enough or willing to give at least a soft guidance of a similar revenue growth and EBITDA margin for a 2-, 3-year perspective or would you rather wait for next year, the order book to build up and give that kind of guidance?

[Rakesh Verma, executive]

I can share some other way. The same thing based on what the headroom is there for us, whether it's in the Map-led business or IoT business and what the order booking that has already happened and the way we are operating, if somebody asked me a question, do you see the light at the end of the tunnel of reaching a INR 1,000 crore company, I will say, certainly, yes. And with a 40% growth or something like that, you can easily calculate how -- even at that level, how long it will take. That's the better answer than what you were asking.

[Vidyadhar Ginde, analyst]

Sure, sure. So I'll go to my next question, which -- see, you have great revenue growth, excellent EBITDA margin, great ROCE, ROE. You have also generated excellent cash flow this year. I think if at all anything is underwhelming, it appears to be the fact that while your revenue is up 40%, EBITDA is up 37%, your net profit is up just 23% and 24%. And that's mainly because you are a high-margin business hasn't grown as strongly -- has grown far less strongly than the overall revenue growth. So what I really wanted to understand is when do you see that changing, whereby you are profit growth is more in sync with -- it's not at least 16 percentage points below your revenue growth. So either the MAp-led business, which is the higher-margin, whether this business needs to grow more strongly than it is or the IoT business needs to the -- margin needs to ramp up? When do you see this happening?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

Both have their own independent path and both are running faster than what you [indiscernible]

[Vidyadhar Ginde, analyst]

When do you see this potent -- because I think if that happens is, let's say, this time your earning profit growth is 35%. I think we probably would not have a lot of the questions you had today. Everybody is asking in different ways. I think the main problem is that your revenue EBITDA growth is 40%, 37%, but PAT has grown by just 24%. Because if that number is closer to your revenue growth, I think a lot of these questions will disappear in mind, even that's what I am trying to understand from you. Because you understand.

[Rakesh Verma, executive]

We'll take it as good input.

[Vidyadhar Ginde, analyst]

No, no, where I'm coming from is, where do you see -- when do you see that happening? Is that your profit growth is more in sync with your revenue growth?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

Okay. So currently what we are seeing, the profit growth is 24%, right? And the revenue growth is 40%. You are saying that the profit growth should also be 40% like revenue growth.

[Vidyadhar Ginde, analyst]

The delta is too big. I think that is where, I think...

[Rohan Verma, executive]

So that's what I'm saying, it should -- not 40%, but we were something closer to that, maybe 35%.

[Vidyadhar Ginde, analyst]

That's what I'm saying. So either the Map, because see, what's really happened is that, maps business, but, if I look at stand-alone revenue is up just 28%. So you've got 40% because of the IoT, Gtropy and all. But that's hardly got any margin. So either that margin needs to ramp up quickly in a year or 2 years or your Map-led business needs to grow stronger, whereby at least the -- you continue to grow at 40% revenue and profit growth at least 30%, 35%. I think that is what we'll make investors more happy.

And a lot of these questions, which I think people are trying to -- my belief is probably that, that is the root cause. That is why everybody is asking from different ways trying to try to get to that answer, they want a stronger earnings growth. So the business, which is very profitable is probably not able to grow.

[Rakesh Verma, executive]

I mean the points are great. I don't know whether we are optimizing on us.

[Vidyadhar Ginde, analyst]

No. I'm only saying, see, what you're doing is the best thing for the company, because Maps doing -- as you add these businesses, the margins will grow at some stage you'll get, but I am only trying to understand when do you see that happening? Do you think it will take 2, 3 years, 5, 6 years, where the revenue growth will...

[Rohan Verma, executive]

These are the independent -- I mean, Map-led and IoT-led together, we are very powerful. It's a very unique combination. And that's what makes us different. But Map-led has its own trajectory, I mean, whether to Automotive companies or Mobility or Consumer Tech.

[Vidyadhar Ginde, analyst]

I am not going into those details, like everybody else is. Simpler question I'm trying to understand is that when do you see your revenue growth of 35%, 40%, less than 40% is fine, but if your profit and growth is going to be 30%, 35% and revenue is 35%, fine. So that's what I'm trying to understand. When will your profit grow we would say at least 10% of [indiscernible]

[Rohan Verma, executive]

Your point is well taken, and we'll see what does that mean? We'll also do some calculation to figure out, no problem. But let me ask you, is 34% growth in the -- or 30% growth, that makes a big difference, is what you are trying to tell me.

[Vidyadhar Ginde, analyst]

I think more -- 30% is a bit of a comparison. I'll tell you one thing. Your company is a very new company. All of us are just trying to understand the company. If somebody who's been around and is a much bigger company grows at 35% -- for them 25%, 30% is fine. For you, as you may be aware also, most investors in small cap or mid-cap stocks, they want stronger stocks which do much better. The growth -- the stocks they need -- those stocks to do much better than a large-cap stock. So it's that basically.

I think that is where -- because your company is an excellent company. I think the only thing missing piece is the -- that's where things are there and you're probably doing your best from what I hear from you doing your best. But so if -- I think you were able to view people visibility that profit growth is going to be more in sync with revenue growth and revenue growth will remain high 30%, 35%, 40%, not less than that, it need to be 40%, but if that's going to take 2, 3 years, I think that is where I think the last missing piece will sort of fall in place in my view.

[Rohan Verma, executive]

Good, at least, you have opened my eyes, so we'll look into that.

[Operator]

The next question is from the line of Paras Bothra from Ashika India Alpha Fund.

[Paras Bothra, analyst]

I have one basic question. This is with regard to the business model, wherein do you give data to how much percentage of your sales is subscription-led?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

I think we give the data in various split, things that are in the investor deck. So I think I'll refer you to that.

[Rakesh Verma, executive]

It will be a very long answer. It's not in one simple way. We are not -- since we are a platform and a products company, we are not a plain vanilla services company that somebody asks us to make data for them, and then we just hand it over like that. We are not that. And that's the uniqueness we have with everybody else in this industry.

[Paras Bothra, analyst]

Sure. I understand. So I was going through the presentation, but it was not there. So I thought of asking you that, what percentage of it is. So I take off record some time.

So the second question is with regard to the IoT-led business. You said that in your presentation that we sold 1.9 plus lakh IoT devices and you said that the opportunity could be INR 20-plus crores vehicles. So in terms of value, what would be the opportunity size? I just wanted to understand.

[Rakesh Verma, executive]

In terms of value of?

[Paras Bothra, analyst]

This INR 20-plus crores vehicles when you say what kind of...

[Rakesh Verma, executive]

I said, that's the TAM, total addressable market.

[Rohan Verma, executive]

Value can be very, very high. That's the whole point that we are trying to make. I mean, we are at INR 60 crores right now with IoT-led with 1.9 or 2 lakh, let's say, devices. So I mean, 100x more, 20 lakhs -- 1,000x orders of magnitude -- we're not saying that we'll get all that. I mean, not all vehicles.

[Rakesh Verma, executive]

We don't visualize getting all of them even in a long shot. There will be other players also.

[Paras Bothra, analyst]

Okay. And third question and the final question. This is with regard to the employee cost. So on an annualized basis, if I look at, your employee cost is 24%, which has come down from 29% Y-o-Y. So what do you think that in long term, say, from a 3- to 5-year perspective, with the kind of service offerings and the platform-led businesses you have, do you think that this cost is going to move proportionately or come down as a percentage?

[Rohan Verma, executive]

It won't move proportionately to growth in revenue for sure, the product and platform. We are looking to always add 2 sets of people, higher skills, technical people and also, of course, a little bit on the sales side. Because those 2 things help us. I mean, a, on one side, improved products or scale products. And on the other side, help us get customers, but it will obviously not grow as fast as the revenue, and that's the operating leverage in the company.

[Operator]

Ladies and gentlemen, that would be our last question for today. I'd now like to hand over the conference to the management for closing comments. Over to you, sir.

[Rohan Verma, executive]

I just want to say thank you to those people who are there. And I hope that you've seen a good track record in the last 4, 5 quarters. We are obviously aspiring to build a very, very large company differentiated on technology and products and platforms. And with that ambition and aspiration while working steadily, we hope to achieve that. So thank you for being on the journey with us.

[Anmol Garg, analyst]

Thank you. On behalf of DAM Capital Advisors Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us. You may now disconnect your lines.