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CE Info Systems Ltd
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Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Q2 FY '25 Earnings Conference Call of C.E. Info Systems hosted by DAM Capital Advisors. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorder.
I now hand the conference over to Mr. Anmol Garg from DAM Capital Advisors. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thank you, [ Mahan ]. Good evening, everyone. On behalf of DAM Capital, we welcome you all to Q2 FY '25 Conference Call of C.E. Info Systems better known as MapmyIndia. We have with us Mr. Rakesh Verma, Co-Founder and [ CMD ] of the company; Ms. [ Sapna Ahuja ], COO of the company. Mr. Anuj Jain, CFO; and Mr. Saurabh Somani, Company Secretary.
I'll now hand over the call to Mr. Verma for his opening remarks. Thank you, and over to you sir.
[indiscernible] and thanks to all the participants today evening who are attending the earnings call. Well I'm Rakesh Verma and let me take you through some salient features. I hope you have gotten a chance to look at the financials for the company, the press release and the investor presentation. And further to that, I would like to start saying that MapmyIndia has received official board approval today to establish a joint venture with [ Hyundai Aprovel ] and wholly owned subsidiary of [ Hyundai Kia ], MapmyIndia will hold 40% stake with a capital investment of $4 million. The joint venture named [ PT Cera Link ] technologies will be based in Indonesia and will concentrate on providing map-based solutions for automotive OEMs and other businesses across Southeast Asia.
Estimated revenue of JV would be the in tune of U.S. to multimillion dollars over the next 5 years with order booking and revenue financing from FY '26 itself. This day, we will also benefit current customers of MapmyIndia. Our Q2 FY '25 revenue from operations increased to INR 104 crores, a 14% year-on-year growth, and the first half of FY '25, which is H1 '25, saw revenue growing to INR 205 crores as against INR 181 crores in H1 FY '24. EBITDA for H1 FY '24, with INR 80 crores, yielding a margin of [ 39.1% ] compared to INR 78 crores and a margin of 43.2% in H1 FY '24. EBITDA for Q2 FY '25 was INR 37.5 crores building a market of 36.1% compared to INR 40.5 crores and a margin of 44.5% in Q2 FY '24. Decrease in margin is primarily due to investing on a continuous basis during the last 4 quarters in Consumer business for the future growth and these investments are booked as expenses, resulting in downloads of [ Napo ] ranging from 10 million in H1 FY '24 to 25 million in H1 FY '25.
Our office [indiscernible] for H1 FY '25 rose to INR 66 crores compared to INR 65 crores in FY '24. Our IoT led business, the EBITDA margin improved significantly, rising from 7% to 14% during the same period. We are on track for achieving our goals of fiscal year FY '27, '28, which we have shared with all of you last year.
Now I would like to introduce [ Sapna ] Hotel, who is the COO of MapmyIndia. Today, this is part of our desire to keep changing between myself and Rohan Verma as one of us and the other one on the senior leadership so that you get more exposure to our management team. Over to [ Sapna ].
Thank you, Mr. Verma, and good evening, everyone. So as we reflect on our performance in quarter 2 FY '25, it is clear that while the overall market we serve faced some challenges, we were able to perform reasonably well. Thanks to our open orders and most importantly our incredible playbook.
To give you some perspective, in the first half of FY '25, our automotive and mobility tech revenue saw an increase of 19.3% year-on-year. And our [ P&D ] revenue grew by 8.2%. More specifically, in Q2 alone, [ A&M ] revenue jumped 27%, taking INR [ 60.9 ] crores year-on-year while [ PND ] revenue held steady at INR 42.7 crores.
So over the past several quarters, we have worked hard to expand our [indiscernible] and establish ourselves in the international market. A key milestone in this year was securing a significant win with [ CP tyramine ] Technologies in Southeast Asia for [ Mac ] solutions. We successfully acquired new customers and deepened our relationships with existing clients through upselling and cross-selling. This included significant wins and [indiscernible] various sectors, including automotive, fleet management, extra, traditional corporate, government entities and defense. Our diverse range of solutions saw increased adoption, further increased adoption, such as our [ ADAS ] and EV mobility stack, video telematics or [ speak ], API can execute for app developers and enterprises and new patient solutions like CD digital [indiscernible].
Now moving specifically into the automotive and mobility tech business. We saw new wins across [indiscernible] and [ 2-wheeler ] and [indiscernible] [ commercial ] on further solidifying our position in the industry. Some of our major go-lives, including [ Hyperfine ] modules, such as [ Sunday Alka ] [indiscernible]. We also saw success with [indiscernible] and [ BCB ] where we entered into the commercial [indiscernible].
In terms of fleet management, we secured major wins, including monitoring vessels for an electric major rate tracking for [ cement ] company and video telematics for auto carriers and the transportation of equipment. Additionally, we achieved a significant milestone with the go live of the [ Maharashtra state AIS 140 ] backed [indiscernible] , which will provide safety and [ LDLC ] response solution for all commercial users in the state.
Coming to our T&D business, we saw multiple wins. In the e-commerce, U.S. delivery and mobility sectors, where our APIs has been utilized for a variety of use cases such as location-based applications, personalization and accurate address capture to improve delivery efficient.
In the pharma retail sector, we secured even in analytics lose cases. These included business expansion planning, retail strategy, mulch automation and customer location analytics. In [ BFSI ] also, we made significant progress. Additionally, the if you see government wins including transit and good mapping to support better rail development in a capital city. [ CI ] solution for the team [indiscernible], landed realization for a state government. And of course, the adoption, as [indiscernible] also mentioned, the adoption of our consumer products continued to rise steadily. I think that's an overview on my end.
Thank you, [ Sapna ]. I think now [indiscernible] you can take it forward.
Thank you very much. We will now begin the question-and-answer session. [Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Anmol Garg from DAM Capital.
A couple of questions. Firstly, so what has led to a sharp decline in the C&E business during this quarter. Is this just quarterly lumpiness or there has been any structural changes? And also, I mean, do you expect the C&E revenue to come back in the coming quarters?
Answer is yes to both.
Right, sir. So sir, by what extent do we expect this revenue to come back? Do we expect this revenue to come back to Q1 levels in Q3?
See, every quarter, there is something special. So going by this quarter-by-quarter, it still a challenge for us. We are building business on a -- for a long-term 3 to 5 years on one side, the lowest denominator for our business, we say here. So this quarter-on-quarter, I said -- I mean, I'm not -- we are not in a position to give you clarity that this quarter, what will happen next quarter, what will happen to the B2B business, okay? And we have an open order book [indiscernible] not talked about. And that order book is quite healthy. And part of that order book may happen in Q4, some of them might happen in Q3, some of them might happen in Q2, some of that might happen in Q1. It is all [indiscernible].
Right, sir. Understood that. Sir, we don't expect any impact of Google in our C&I business?
No. No, there's no impact. If you are answering that very question the answer is straight, no.
Understood. Understood. Secondly, sir, if you can talk about the JV that you have signed with Hyundai. Now will it provide maps to only Hyundai cars? Or will it be open to other OEMs as well? And what kind of revenue can we expect from the JV [indiscernible] in FY '26?
Okay. I think if you seen the presentation that we have shared with all of you, there is a base on that, which talks about the today into international markets, okay? So this is the first time in the history of MapmyIndia where we entered the international market, we have international customers, many of them, 8 or 10 [indiscernible] or 12 [indiscernible], but they are meant for the domestic market. This is the first time, and that's what we feel proud and it has been hard work for the last 12 months. Our strategy has been always how to optimize our costs entering international market. And at least I'm aware of many companies of our size how difficult it has been for them and how much money they have burned.
Think about this, our model in which we have successfully joined hand with Hyundai whereby our costs were not hardly put it that way other than travel-related of some time here and there. Now this JV has been formed with Hyundai, keeping in line first, Hyundai [ Kia ] itself has a captive JV will have a captive customer Hyundai Kia South for the Southeast Asian countries. And that is what the JV will get take benefit from a captive customer. What I mean by that is so because of the captive customers, they will start earning revenue right away. Otherwise, when you build an international market, you know what you get into, the model to the extent I can talk about today and as the time goes by, we can explain more and more revenue the -- ultimately, what will happen, we will get some part of the profit from JV to our bottom line. And we will outsource the mass-related activities to MapmyIndia, which service will provide.
Other partners Hyundai [ auto ever ] is a software company. And further, what it will do is all these -- I'm talking first about the automotive customers. All these automotive OEMs who will service in India for Indian market there will be an upsell to them about the Southeast Asian market also, whoever in India [indiscernible] Southeast Asia, the automotive OEM, we'll be able to offer them an additional solution for that market and that will add further revenue for MapmyIndia. It's not limited to automotive OEM even the large C&E company, which we have whether e-commerce companies or otherwise are examples like Apple and others similar clients. We will also look forward to offering them beyond India mass to them to the JV. So there is a huge, huge opportunity. We don't -- we can't predict revenues for exactly but as the time goes by things will fall in place and you will start hearing the wins over there and then you will know what kind of revenue we are getting.
So we are very excited, we feel that this is a big change in our big change that this JV will bring to us. And with it other, I call [ Hyundai ] as a [indiscernible] rather for us. We are entering the Southeast Asian market for us [indiscernible] and the JV will, in future, as of now, has planned to move to the EMEA, Middle East and African market, too, which is our strategy going through JV formation. Did I answer it?
Yes, sir. Sir, just one follow-up on this. Given that we have a 40% stake in this JV, this will only add to our bottom line, but not on the top line, right?
No, I told you that. But -- two more things I said. Let me repeat it for your benefit because it's a very interesting model. One is the JV will outsource for many other countries where they will partner with a local company, but a local company can provide the mass to the JV. However, the processing of that map will be outsourcing to MapmyIndia, that's one revenue model.
The second revenue model, I said about the [indiscernible] like whether in the C&D all the automotive OEMs in India who are our customers, we will be selling -- we'll be giving them our solution to those companies, and that will be a revenue model for MapmyIndia. So it is not just the profit that we'll accelerate in the bottom -- in our bottom line. The other two I just told you will hit our top line itself.
Understood. And just one last thing from my end before I join back in the queue. Is that -- if you look at the 1H growth it has been at around 14% or so. So are we confident of achieving very strong growth in second half, so that we can be above 30% kind of growth, which will be required for achieving our guidance of INR 1,000 crores revenue by '27, '28.
Guided has made in my commentary, my last line that only that we are pretty comfortable today with achieving our FY '27, '28 goals.
Understood. Understood.
[indiscernible] to happen. And what has happened today all with the JV that is a sign for that.
Sure. Understood, understood. I'll join back in the queue.
The next question is from the line of Chandramouli from Goldman Sachs.
My first question is just trying to understand the cost movement this quarter. You mentioned that you have made a lot of investment for the long-term growth of the business quarter. So it looks like there's a big pickup in raw material costs because of the IoT hardware business [indiscernible] has been fully funded. So just trying to understand, this seems to be since we went public, since we've been getting your disclosures, financial disclosures. The first quarter where we've had Y-o-Y growth in top line, but Y-o-Y decline in EBITDA. So just trying to understand the factors within the gross margin and also the factors around the investment you've taken in the fixed costs and how to think about run rate around profitability going forward? We used to a 40%-plus margin journey. But going forward, as we chase growth, where we should expect profitability for the company to settle out?
Let me [indiscernible] it in a very simple way. If we had been doing only mass business, B2B probably our profitability EBITDA you would have seen rising to 60%, 70%. But it would not have helped us with the revenue growth target that we have tried to put on ourselves INR 1,000 crore in FY '27, '28. So now when you try to grow faster and you try to grow using other methods allied businesses. There will be a -- where that expense will be shared from on the profitability of that MapmyIndia business. So let's first talk about the IoT business itself.
If I remove IoT business, you know how much EBITDA will become, percentage-wise, margin and percentage-wise, not margin absolute in rupees wise. Does that mean that we don't do IoT business, the answer is no, we better do it and do it, keep doing it. Because it is one of the second pillar of our business.
A third one. As a third pillar, will it not require investment, tissue really is all these investments lead to booking it as an expense. They do not allow accounting standards do not allow us to capitalize them. Now the whole category, consumer business. From now in the last 2 years and particularly last 1 year, we have reached 10 million to 25 million downloads. That 25 million, if you ask me as of today, that number is almost like 28 million. How do we -- how are we doing it? Don't you think we are spending money in two parts.
One is some sort of advertising -- either some sort of marketing expense under some sort of expenses on the cloud because these free apps do require cloud usage, which means that cloud expense. Now again, the choice is ours, [indiscernible] could be ours, not choices ours, choice will be ours, but we don't get into this consumer side. If that is a choice we want to follow, -- do you think -- we don't think -- I'm not asking you, I'm telling myself, we don't think we are doing a good business. From nowhere to 28 million as of today, if we are able to achieve 1 day, and I'm not giving you the time frame, 100 million, can you imagine the impact of that would be on our overall business.
So here is the dilemma and here, this dilemma, we try to address a board meeting today, I can share that. And we had a 1.5 hour long discussion and the Board felt very comfortable and they said go ahead with -- you have the cash in your company, you go ahead with it and do your best to see that the consumer maps app grew as fast as possible. So the answer to that -- the statement that you made since listing our EBITDA has fallen. Yes, it is for the future. We are not -- we are trying to do -- we are trying to do everything that will help us in FY '27, '28 and beyond that, and we are building a business.
Got it. That's helpful. Just as a follow-up to that. Just trying to understand, will you be able to -- I think last day you had filed out how there was an increase in serving expenses and outsourcing expenses. I just want to understand you will be able to size out, I think, the 3 or 4 meaningful investments you've made, just for us to understand what is the size of the investments you're making that you are actually taking the hit on the P&L.
You mean investments in other companies. Is that what your question is?
I think the investments that you're making in the consumer business, the drone business, the IoT business, on those 3 to 4 long-term pillars on which you're making investments, if you're able to size out what the investment we made, maybe [indiscernible] this quarter.
[indiscernible] the consumer I just said that having, let's say, having spent as an expense of INR 5 crore this quarter has led to a jump to 28 or 25 million consumers download, okay? So that's an investment. Investment would be either [indiscernible] or it could be expensed, we are expensing them, not capitalizing them.
The second part, in IoT you can see the trend. IoT from a negative EBITDA when we started, it has risen to almost like, I don't know, 12% or 14%, something like that, 14%, okay? So the investment we are making is in terms of pushing hardware devices into the market so that we get SaaS revenue. And that pushing that SaaS I'm just observed. I don't know how much correct I am, but I observed that some of the companies are not showing it under the sale of revenue -- this way, we are showing revenue of devices as subscription and the cost of devices and marketing expense. I mean, this is what -- in the telematics business, I'm observing it. But that doesn't matter, we are just showing the way it is. So that's an investment.
[indiscernible] we have manufactured 5 [ drones ] already, given the 3 [ loans ] for government certification. This is on one side to make sure that we have our in-house capability for [ drone ] so that the [ growth ] can be [ dose ] can be are made in the manner a customer's requirement may be instead of shopping around in this market.
And the second part is we have done a couple of work already with -- with both government and nongovernment customers we have started providing drone as a service, which is reflected into the revenue. This is the best answer I can give you, Chandramouli.
Got it. That's helpful. And a question is around the Hyundai Kia contract. Congratulations on the ramp-up there. So I just want to understand, versus the business that we've been doing on Hyundai Kia over the past 5 to 10 years. Could you just tell us this new contract, what is maybe the incremental business? Is it INR 5 crores per quarter, INR 10 crores per quarter. Just trying to understand that as we get the first full quarter benefit next quarter on this.
The 2 are independent. We have a direct contract, which we shared was around close to INR 400 crores contract over 5 years. I think we have already shared that in the last quarter earnings call, okay? It has nothing to do with JV. So that if you take INR 400 crores over 5 years, it's a INR [ 80 ] crore a year. It mean if you further want to just do a simple math, it's a INR [ 20 ] crore for the quarter on an average. So that answers your question on that?
I'm just trying to understand the INR 20 crores per quarter, what was the.
[indiscernible] average because [indiscernible] some quarters it will be more, some quarter it will be less INR 400 crores divided by 5 to say that it is INR 80 crores a year, okay?
Just last clarification on this. I'm just -- in keeping the JV side, just looking at the existing Hyundai Kia domestic business, the INR 400 crore business, INR 20 crores.
This is the Hyundai Kia domestic business and [indiscernible] for us. Nothing to do with JV.
Correct. Correct. So just trying understand before the domestic contract was announced this INR 400 crores, the old Hyundai Kia business that we had was that at a INR 5 crore per quarter, INR 10 crores per quarter run rate and now we have INR 20 crores per quarter. I'm just trying to understand that jump.
Okay. I'm asking [ Sapna ]. So it was around INR 5, INR 6 crores a quarter.
And that's jumping to INR 20 on average.
Yes. But this has started only from September, the revenue has started only from September, November. We had expected earlier that it will start from April. It got delayed, but finally, it has started from September.
The next question is from the line of [ Vimal Gohil ] from Alchemy Capital Management.
Sir, I do understand you have already mentioned the slowdown in the reasons behind the slowdown in the consumer tech but sir, even if I -- and we do understand the [indiscernible] that this business cannot be looked at on a Q-on-Q basis. But even on a 2-year [ CAGR ] basis, if I were to look at the growth, the growth has fallen down to 7% on a 2-year year [indiscernible] basis for this particular piece.
So if you can -- and we have highlighted in the presentation that there was certain challenges. If you can highlight what exactly are those challenges that you face? Is it that the use cases that should be increasing are probably slowing down, maybe because the customers are taking a bit more time. So what exactly is happening there?
Or -- and on the marketing expenses, the margins, over the past few -- last 4 quarters, you spent about INR 15 crores to INR 16 crores on marketing. So we've already been doing that expense over time.
So I don't think -- your numbers are not right. We have not been doing INR 15 crores.
I'm talking cumulatively, sir, on.
No, for the full year also, it was not INR 15 cores [indiscernible] year. I can tell you right now. [indiscernible] how much was it? [indiscernible] was on INR 15 crores even for the whole year last year.
So sir, the point that I was trying to make over here is that given the fact that we've -- we've been spending the.
For the full year it was [ 9% ]. And this year, it is already -- it is already close to 7 in the half year.
Yes. So we've been -- the spending intensity is already -- has been high historically. So what has transpired now that the spending is to accelerate? And will it directly have a positive impact on the C&E segment? Will it help it grow.
Advertising on marketing expense is to do with the consumer app. I don't think our marketing spend for E&D or ALM is a lot. It might not be more than -- I'm taking -- making a guess, may not be more than INR 3 crores in a year.
Okay. So sir, with -- on the consumer app, what are the long-term plans for monetization?
Standard, as you know, there are several ways a lot of things come out, like people have been asking what are the long-term plans for [indiscernible]. So the consumer has first understand, [ PR ] is sitting with a unique asset. Nobody, no single Indian company as an app like [indiscernible] or Google Maps, no Indian company has it. Now when you think about it, we are the leader in the country, it ignores Google permit, and we are the challenges to Google. And in spite of that challenging and one is Google, we have reached 28 million downloads.
So what is the advantage? Google is getting from that 20 -- that 100 million if they have approximately I'm giving you a number. What is -- are they getting a lot of advantages because of that. So the impact is we are trying to get very specific, the impact would be on potential advertisement revenue in fact, would be on more people liking our APIs because they will be convinced that our APIs are much better. In fact, could be on automotive companies where they will see that [indiscernible] so popular. So to like that, it is it is a product and asset that changes the people's behavior towards a brand and people's behavior towards accepting their products.
Sir. And sir, you didn't answer the question around the consumer tech slowdown.
No, the -- there's no slowdown. I said it in the beginning, I don't go by quarter by quarter.
No, no, sir, I'm talking on a 2-year CAGR basis, our revenue growth is about 7%. Now that clearly does not a good assist to CAGR potential that we have and what we have done historically. So if you can just maybe -- and even in the presentation, you highlighted that there were certain challenges in the markets that we operate. If you can just put some more light on what exactly were those challenges which led to this decline?
So last quarter, the challenges were still [indiscernible] it's not 7%, do your math a bit, you will find it out, okay? But anyway, I'm not challenging your numbers. And the challenges that we talked about in the market, I hope you guys know better than me or us as a team, what was the result of the Q2 for most of these corporate world, in general, if we look at the Q2 results for the corporate world. Definitely, it was not very good one. This is my impression. So when the results of the customers we service, they are aware of what is impacting them. So there can be some slowdown that can get transferred to us also. That's what we have tried to write in our commentary. But it was not 7%. I think just do the calculation, again, you'll understand.
The next question is from the line of Abhishek Kumar from JM Financial.
Question, again, sorry to harp on the growth performance. I just first want to understand first half.
Sir, can you please speak a little bit louder sir?
Yes. Just a second, let me transfer to my headset. Hello, is this better?
[indiscernible]
Yes. So I just wanted to again harp on the growth that you have seen. Clearly, the growth was slightly below what the Street was expecting. So 13.5% growth in the first half year-over-year, is this as per your own initial expectation? Or and has it disappointed you also?
Okay. I think good question. Actually, honestly speaking, we don't care whether it is a C&E or A&M. We just don't care. We care for what is our total business happening. I'm talking about even the short-term quarter-by-quarter also, we look at the total picture. It may happen that in a particular quarter, A&M might show a big jump. And in some quarters, C&E might show a big jump I mean, I'm not predicting or I'm not giving you any guidance, but if you see a big jump in Q4 for C&E don't be surprised.
Okay. That's very clear. So the only question why maybe so many participants have asked this is we have a very strong conviction in our FY '27, '28 guidance of INR 1,000 crores. But the first half, we are tracking much below the required rate. So is it -- I mean it's difficult to understand, right, if there is a slowdown near term, but we have a conviction, which is 5 years out [indiscernible].
Last year, you probably have attended our investor conference, correct? And we gave this guidance of INR 1,000 crores in '27, '28, that's also correct.
Yes.
People like you get a backward calculation and said every year it has to happen like this. That's also correct? Did we even know that a JV is in the offering? Did we even know that we are going to reach the international market? Now in the last [ 10 ] years, a good amount of focus on the management towards a couple of things for the future. And the future was how do we enter the international market. What do we do with our consumer business? How do we efficiently operationalize IoT business? What do we do in drones? Now if the impact of all that total in some quarters fall below your street expectation, if I may, all, then if you are a long-term investor or an analyst looking at a long-term perspective, we consider these factors.
No, fair enough. Just that the -- I mean the current growth is significantly below the [indiscernible] rate. So that's why they're concerned. But I take the point. The second question is, I just want to understand maybe the construct of our order book, right? We gave fixed pricing and we give volume projections. And when there is a slowdown maybe in C&E business but a sharp slowdown in one particular quarter. Is it the -- I mean, my understanding is, is the fixed price contract, which gets pushed out or maybe.
That doesn't get pushed out. Actually, as of today's order booking. If I can see, I find that Q1 and Q4 have much more ways towards the fixed pricing, if you're trying to understand.
Okay. Maybe I didn't really get it. How is it -- I mean are there milestones which happened in Q1 and Q4?
Yes. That's exactly right. I'm talking about as of today's prevailing open orders. Next year, it might change and so making a very guarded statement that as of current order books, the fixed prices in C&E are more leaning towards Q1 and Q4.
Understood. Okay. Understood. My last question is on margins. So I think we have maintained earlier that 40% medium-term margin is what we despite.
No, no, no, no, no, I don't agree. Last year, we have given the guidance on margin, not for this year. Because this year, to tell you that growth, we have ourselves debating that [indiscernible]. How much -- how far do we move with the consumer business. Because if we do with the consumer business, it is an investment, which is in the form of expense. And hence, we try to shy away from giving you any guidance for EBITDA for this financial year.
Okay. Sure. So the current level is what we should factor in for the rest of this year?
No, I think you should look at the current level is one way, and you should look at what the [indiscernible] things have happened of the JV which builds the future and the consumer business that is built up system. I think consider both together, not just hard wired back for this quarter and extrapolate that. I know -- I won't if I if I'm an investor.
The next question is from line of [ Soroka ] from [indiscernible].
Hello. Am I audible?
Yes.
Sir. First of all, let me introduce myself quickly. So my name is [ Purita ], and I am a proud retail investor in MapmyIndia. So this is the first time I'm attending this conference call. And thank you for the opportunity given to me for asking the question. So yes, I will not ask for multiple questions. So I understand, I can understand that ups and downs take place in the market and in the business also. So this quarter is not that much bad everyone should start firing.
So my question -- a straightforward question to me. We, as a MapmyIndia, are doing the business in different segments like saving of the map and services into [indiscernible] as well. And we have set up another company like [ Clarity ] for analytical solutions. So considering all these aspects, so my question to is what -- I mean what MapmyIndia can do in the longer term, like 7 to 10 years from here? I'm not worried about the short term of 3 years. I'm pretty much confident on their revenue, the values you have given that I'm confident that you will be able to fulfill that. But I'm from a return investor pesrpective and thinking a bit of a larger broad range. So can you please enlighten me if it is possible to give you a picture like where we can push ourselves in the next [indiscernible] to 10 years of range. Thank you in advance for answering the question.
Thanks for [indiscernible]. I hope you know that we are a technology company. I hope that's clear, right?
Yes, yes, yes. And I have a very good [indiscernible].
And we are sitting with a unique asset maps. A technology company trying to say that what will happen in 7 to 10 years -- is it -- I mean, it should be on this. All that I can see that say that safely, if we continue to be a technology company, if I'm saying, and there is no reason not to believe that because for 25 years, we have been a technology company. A technology companies [indiscernible] while moving forward, [indiscernible] also keeps getting adjusted depending but now you hear all this AI so much. Now interestingly, not -- we have been using AI for the last 5 years on our own company for our [ Mats ] analytics or so many things.
But the interesting part is that AI companies will lead us. And they are the potential customers for us. Now don't ask me how, but I'm giving you held. So as the technology world is moving the opportunities for MapmyIndia on one side to use or develop technologies for that as well as the use cases for our maps and IoT and others also gets increased. The only statement I can simply make is we are proud that we have been in existence for 25 years, so nicely. And we are proud that we feel very strongly that the next 25 years will also be there. Worldwide, the mapping companies got [indiscernible] and they vanished after the rival of Google. And here, we are giving them a real good time.
The next question is from the line of Shobit Singhal from Anand Rathi.
Sir, on the B2C side, what I see is that we are building 2 use cases, first in [indiscernible] travel commerce and daily [indiscernible]. So how is the revenue over here? And are we doing on something like on per booking basis? Or -- and on the travel also, I was seeing that we are giving some discounts as well. So how is the transaction has been over? I just wanted to understand.
Let me put it slightly differently. First is our goal is to take the [ MapmyIndia ] from 27 million to an unowned millions of our consumer base. Other things that we are talking about are more R&D kind of a thing, okay? So saying what is the transaction base, how the car rental, what kind of revenue we are sharing or how much in the [ map ] small we are sharing, or how much in the [ master ] we are sharing. These are not -- we are not -- these are not the things that we are talking about today. I think we'll talk about it a year later, not before a year.
Okay. So but I just wanted to understand what exactly are you trying to do on our B2C side?
B2C?
You are building, yes, B2C [indiscernible]. So we are building the travel commerce. Now I can see a small -- and so how is the opportunity size? Or how big is the opportunity side are we looking at going forward?
You know what an entrepreneur or companies like ours, experiment and experiment publicly to see what's happening. But our goal right now for the next 1 year is to focus on increasing the [ masala ] downloads. The other things are on the side, people are experimenting [indiscernible] and good things will come out of it. So definitely, like in-app advertising, the map of gadgets are there, which can go on an online subscription commission income from travel expenses. These are some of the ways that consumer business can think of monetizing the [ Matas ] app.
The next question is from the line of Sameer Dosani from ICICI.
Thanks for the question, am I audible?
Yes, you are.
So typically, we see stronger H2 in C&E segment. So should we expect base in the order book that is to be stronger. And is my understanding [indiscernible] end margin [indiscernible].
The voice is quite distorted.
Okay. Am I audible?
You are audible, but the voice is really distorted.
The next question is from the line of [ Deepak ] from [ Sundaram Matalan ].
Am I audible?
Yes.
Yes. Sir, my question revolves around this [indiscernible], which you have announced with Hyundai, whatever. So sir, in India, it took us considerable time to build this [ MAP ] business kind of retailing and precision we have on the routes. Now we are trying to replicate the same in a foreign geography, right, with this JV partner. And you also indicated that in FY '26, you will start to take in the revenues. So I was just thinking, would it be possible for you to quickly scale up that JV given that the Indian business has taken so long to kind of achieve that level of proficiency, is it that the JV partner is bringing on something on the table for us to ramp up particularly.
The last part you said is like -- and the first part also, you said is really correct. There's no way we can ramp up building maps of so many countries ourselves is -- I mean, we believe it's not possible, too. But -- this is that like we never believe -- and hence, we never went to the international market, thinking that we can create business in the international market on our phone. But part one is what think about Hyundai Kia has cars all across the world, right? And by mixing on doing a combination between our Hyundai as a partner, we as a partner, we are in that specialist. And the third element of engaging local agencies is what is the underlying strategy to build the map.
Okay. Got it.
[indiscernible] technology and customer access, we bring map-building experience.
Okay. So data will be sourced through this local partners or local agency, as you call it. And using your tech, you will develop what we have in India right now? And the technological part, some will be assisted by Hyundai?
More from the software side, Hyundai will bring in because Hyundai also is primarily a software company, whereas the mapping technology, we will bring in.
Okay. And sir, could you please elaborate this $4 million which you have outlined since when will we start investing this and exactly where these investments will be around this INR 32-odd crores number, $4 million.
It will go to JV. Hyundai Auto ever would bring in $6 million, making a total capital of $10 million. That will be with the JV and then JV will be spending that amount. And we start -- we will invest it, I would say, probably this month itself.
Okay. So the investment will start from this month. And sir, can you just elaborate this, where these investments are means -- what is the outcome of this investment of this $10 million that we are trying to achieve?
The outcome is JV will build a business. The business will be built by JV with a strong participation between Hyundai and MapmyIndia. JV will I think in the beginning, I probably explained something in the model that JV will have the maps from the local partners. MapmyIndia will process it in the technology. And Hyundai software and the map will together be given to those auto OEMs where Hyundai software is acceptable. If we want the [ Napier ] navigation software, they will take MapmyIndia software. When they don't end customers like [ BYD ] or [ XYZ ], interesting thing is many of them in India, [ MGID ] , they are using our software. So that will generate the revenue for us.
And further, if the end customers liked somebody elses offers they will supply that also. But it is not only for auto OEM [indiscernible]. This JV business or the maps that JV [indiscernible] will be -- can be given to many of the C&E customers of MapmyIndia today or otherwise.
Understood. So basically, the source code or the map development phase where our capabilities, but on the front end, it is the Hyundai AutoCare software, which the client will see or the user will see as a user interface.
Maybe. Primarily for Hyundai Kia vehicles, they will see Hyundai Auto [indiscernible] software. But for example, let's say [ BYD ]. As an example, they might see our software.
Got it. Got it. But sir, then wouldn't there be a conflict of interest because then, let's say, if [ BID ] uses your software and you have, whatever, also using their own software and then you're competing against each other right?
No, we'll not -- how will be completing tell me, I don't understand that?
Just now you explained, in BYD, the software can be something else apart from Hyundai AutoCare, right, whatever. So if that software is kind of provided by us, then aren't we kind of.
[indiscernible] to JV.
Through the JV.
Right. We will not operate independently. Hyundai Auto ever will not operate independently. Both of us have to pull in our technologies, our resources, our money is already [indiscernible]. And the end customer will be a customer of JV.
Okay. Okay. Got it, sir. Thank you for all the clarifications. All the best.
The last question is from the line of Sameer Dosani from ICIC.
Sir, [ E&E ] segment, should we expect normal seasonality like H2 [indiscernible] on revenue? So should we expect H2 to be heavier for [indiscernible]? That is one question. Second, how should I think of the margins like obviously, now we are at [indiscernible] EBITDA margin. Should we think this is a new level of EBITDA margins for us? Or if you expect this margin [indiscernible] H2, on when do we expect it to recommence?
I mean, yes, H2 is heavy. That I can certainly say. Margin, I would never like to comment because we have not given the guidance for the margin at all for this financial year.
This [indiscernible]
Our H1 margin is -- H1 margin is 39.3%, okay? Which is close to what many of you believe that we have given you guidance of 40%, right? It is very close to that.
Okay. So next to, obviously, with the revenue growth, we should see that, and that's my assumption? Now [indiscernible] should we think that margins will be higher than our own company [indiscernible] margin because we don't have to be [indiscernible]. So we don't have to do a part [indiscernible]. How should I think of the margins are taking?
JV margin, I'm not looking at it. That is [indiscernible] management.
Okay. Okay. And just one [indiscernible] is already some in Q2 numbers or some to get in Q3 normally?
Sorry, [indiscernible]. Can you please ask your question again?
So [indiscernible], so basically, on an OEM level [indiscernible] the sub seasonal, that's a higher volume quarter. So is it only [indiscernible] in Q3 or -- sorry, is it only actually [indiscernible] or will it come in to [indiscernible].
See, the sectors rise in volume that's typically paid between Q2 and Q3, Yes.
That was the last question for the day. I would now like to hand the conference over to the management for closing comments. Over to you, sir.
Thank you for listening to us. And I really appreciate all the different questions that came up, and we are excited to say that there's something always a game changer. That game changer happened right now with this joint venture. I hope there can be more game changers if we are able to change this 28 million consumers to 100 million consumers that will be another big game changes like that, from time to time, you will see the game changes and some of the game changes might have an impact or the benefit that we might get is immediate. Some of the game changes, you will see the benefit will come later.
But overall, when we look at 3 to 5 years and not [indiscernible] about '27, '28, we always have a time horizon of 3 to 5 years so when we do any serious thing for the future, not 7 years, but 3 to 5 years is always our time horizon, and we work towards that goal. So if you believe what we are doing including the consumer thing, then please be rest assured we are going on the right track. It's not the EBITDA, it's not the fact. They're in buying product of when you do good business. Thank you so much.
Thank you. On behalf of DAM Capital Advisors, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines. Thank you.
Thank you all.