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Just Dial Ltd
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Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. I'm Prakhyat, your moderator of this session. Thank you for standing by, and welcome to the Just Dial Limited just end Fourth Quarter FY ‘19 Earnings Call. [Operator Instructions] I would like to now hand over the conference to Mr. Rishit Parikh. Over to you, sir.
Thanks, Prakhyat. On behalf of Nomura, we would like to welcome you all to Just Dial Fourth Quarter Earnings Call. We have with us the Founder, MD and CEO of Just Dial, Mr. VSS Mani; and also the CFO of the company, Mr. Abhishek Bansal. Without further delay, now I would like to hand over the call to the management. Over to you, guys.
Hi, everyone. Welcome to Just Dial's earnings call for Fourth Quarter Fiscal '19. We’ll quickly go through key financial and operational highlights for the quarter and full year.Operating revenue for the quarter stood at about INR 232 crores, which grew approximately 16% year-on-year. Operating EBITDA stood at a healthy INR 58.8 crores, witnessing strong 29% year-on-year growth. Adjusted operated EBITDA margin, excluding ease of expenses, stood at 26% for the quarter.EBIT margin stood at 21.7% versus 18.6% during same quarter last year.Net profit for the quarter came in at about INR 62.5 crores, which went up about 61% year-on-year. For the full year, we have been able to deliver 14% y-o-y growth in top line, and adjusted EBITDA margin improved to about 27.7% from 23% last year. Annual tax stood at approximately INR 207 crores, which was up 44% year-on-year.Total free cash flow generation during the year has been robust at about INR 349 crores, about 31% year-on-year growth. Considering INR 220 crores was returned back to shareholder via buyback, there has been accretion in cash of book -- on books of about INR 131 crores. Cash and investment stood at approximately INR 1,330 crores as on 31st March 2019.Now coming to operational highlights. Mobile traffic witnessed healthy 40% y-o-y growth. Unique users on our mobile platform alone are now over 110 million, which is a very healthy sign. Overall, including all platforms, we were able to grow at about 25% year-on-year to about 139 million unique users for the quarter. We added another 900,000 listings to our database, and now we have about 25.7 million active listings, which has grown about 18% year-on-year. About 54% of the database today stands geo coded, and we have 60 million plus images and listings in our database.Count of user ratings and reviews now stands at a staggering 96 million. As far as paid campaigns are concerned, results of improving productivity of feet-on-street additions continues to be visible. During the quarter, we added about 15,400 net paid campaigns, and we have now crossed 500,000 active paid campaigns. Overall, I think FY '19 was a very healthy year from us from all financial and operating metrics. As of strategy on monetization, focus continues on adding to our feet-on-street team to cover the entire country in as much depth and width possible, plus getting higher efficiencies out of them.As a business, overall focus continues on getting more users to use our products, which is undergoing continuous improvement, getting users to engage more, building on to current growth rates both in terms of revenue as well as getting higher profitability and free cash flows.We shall now open the floor for any questions.
[Operator Instructions] We have the first question from Ravi Menon from Elara Capital.
Congratulations on the recent revenue growth. So Abhishek, just wanted to have a question on how much of the revenue addition does start actually? And for the full year, it come from Tier 2 to Tier 3 towns?
For this particular quarter, Tier 2, Tier 3 cities contributed about 27% to revenues.
And for the full year, FY '19?
For the full year, share would have been approximately 25%.
25%. And this is the overall -- share of the overall revenue, right, not just incremental revenue?
No. This is share of the overall revenue. So Tier 2, Tier 3 cities broadly contributed last quarter 27% to revenues and approximately 47%, 48% to count of campaign.
Okay. And it looks like it's getting to be an increasing share of incremental revenue. So say, what would you say would be like 70%, 80% of the revenue getting added -- seems to be coming from Tier 2, Tier 3 cities. Would that be right?
Tier 2, Tier 3 cities on our overall share basis are taking share by 1% to 1.5% each quarter. So if we were to translate that into how much of the incremental share is coming, it would surely be 50%, 60% plus.
And that's like -- that's what's putting some downward pressure on your revenue per campaign as well, right?
Yes. So the mix when it is shifting towards Tier 2, Tier 3 where our ticket size is much lower, that tends to have a downward pressure on realization. But the positive side to that is that the pricing there is so low that it is relatively easier for us to affect price increases in those particular territories.
And as a follow-up, are you seeing any kind of employee attrition or some sort of pressure on compensation? Because we've been hearing that because of the food delivery companies and the kind of feet-on-street kind of talent pool, we would expect that there is bit of pressure. Are you seeing any of that?
See, definitely, there is fight for talent in the market on the compensation side as well. There are companies which are willing to pay much higher particular salary levels. But in our particular case, whenever we have whatever pressures or even lateral hires joining us, we have not seen our particular attrition levels worsening. So to that extent, I think we are fine as of now.
Right. And this particular quarter, what is the advertising promotional spend?
Ad spend for the quarter was approximately INR 17 crores.
[Operator Instructions] We have the next question from Mr. Vijit Jain from Citi.
Abhishek, when I look at FY '19 non-employee operating expenses, I see they declined about 6%. Now I know you've moved some of your regular expenses to AWS so lower infrastructure expenses and whatnot. Can you talk a little more about how that move into AWS has impacted your operating expenses? Is that the reason why they are declining? And how that move affects your G&A expenses and fixed asset investment requirements going forward as well?
Okay, so on other expenses, excluding ad spend, it's not a shift towards AWS that is resulting into decline. In fact, the shift towards AWS is resulting in part of our CapEx becoming OpEx in nature. The key reason for these particular costs to remain under control is some of our particular AMCs, we have been able to negotiate them for long term. So by both paying INR 1 crore annually for a particular set of two, the result was we tried to negotiate that, okay, for 2x or 2.2x the cost, can they get it for 3 years. So that helps me reduce my annual expense on that particular front. Apart from that, there are optimizations done on telecom cost, SMS cost. A combination of all those is what is resulting into almost flattish to slight decline in other expenses, ex advertising.
Okay, so is there more room to go on that front in equity as well? Can you get more cost benefits from all those initiatives? [ That's another question ].
See, one way to look at is that, okay, for these particular expenses also[Audio Gap] 8%, 9% increase. If we are able to control them even at 2%, 3% increase. For me, that is also optimization done to save that additional 5%, 6% growth. Last year, we benefited significantly from optimization of these particular expenses. Cost optimization tends to be a continuous exercise. We continuously evaluate for all the -- our entire cost structure where all savings we can have. But this particular year, the margin expansion was driven more due to top line expansion. Going forward as well, there could be some element coming due to cost benefits due to automation, et cetera, but a good portion should ideally be coming from top line growth.
[Operator Instructions] We have the next question from Sandip Agarwal from Edelweiss.
This is Pranav from Edelweiss. So I have 3 questions. Firstly, if I look at for this quarter, at this rate, EBITDA growth was not meaningful despite the revenue coming -- additional revenue coming into the quarter. What is the reason for the same? And is it a quarterly phenomena? That's my first question. Secondly, on the cash flows, you generated significant amount of cash flows and that led to addition to the cash balance. How should we think about it going in the future? I mean do you expect to give out almost all the cash? Or how much of the cash you want to retain? And lastly, can you comment something about the new beyond search platform which you created? How is the end user engagement metrics? Are -- Or on JD Pay, how are things shaping up? Any way you are seeing strong traction?
See, for beyond adjusted EBITDA growth, so adjusted EBITDA for the quarter stood at about INR 61 crores, which grew a healthy 24% year-on-year. So while the top line grew about 16%, there was 24% increase in adjusted EBITDA. For the full year, the growth was, in adjusted EBITDA...
I was referring more to quarter-on-quarter number. And that, sir, I think, there is something definite. So it was flat quarter-on-quarter adjusted EBITDA.
Yes. Adjusted EBITDA, quarter-on-quarter, it was flat. So if this year, specifically, if you see, first, 2 quarters had lower advertising spend. So ad spend was more tilted towards third and fourth quarter. Secondly, employee cost. Since we have been adding feet-on-street for last about 3 to 4 quarters, that particular additional manpower cost is what is resulting into flat sequential absolute adjusted EBITDA.To your second question on increase of cash on balance sheet, so you're right that against INR 349 crores of total cash that we generated, INR 220 crores was returned. Despite that, INR 131 crores cash attrition happened on the balance sheet. The thought process there is that we would want to return a good percentage of incremental cash being generated back to shareholders, subject to permissible limits. So buyback, we can do only one per year. There is a limit of 25% of paid-up capital plus 3 results. Last year, against the limit of INR 227 crores, we distributed INR 220 crores. So the next buyback proposal, whenever we take it up with the Board, so we will evaluate. Thirdly, on your question of what are the various...
Quarterly metrics.
Metrics on beyond search initiatives, what are the various metrics? So there, on JD Pay, like, we have recently taken UPI Live as well. On our particular curated content, a lot of new particular features are being rolled out. At this point of time, most of these particular features are being discovered accidentally by users. So once we have certain critical mass of users coming to -- for these particular services, we would appropriate -- disclose appropriate engagement metrics for these as well.
But is there any future where you're seeing strong traction or where you believe that there is a high potential? Or is that...
So some of the features like the new features we have in various languages. In fact, the search bot -- search battery today have -- we have made it universal in nature. Till sometime back, the search was restricted to searching only for listings or categories. Today, you can search for listings, categories, products, images, any generic search as well. So if you search for any particular personality, you get all details or whatever is available, big news articles or any particular curated content. So that particular vertical is definitely seeing good traction among users.
We have the next question from Prince Poddar from JM Financial.
Just 2 questions for me. First is regarding your conversion from the listings from Tier 2, 3 cities. How is that trending? Is that trending in the positive direction that most conversions are happening every quarter? And how it's faring against Tier 1 cities? [ It's my first question ].
See, as we discussed that Tier 2, Tier 3 cities, they are gaining share both in terms of revenue as well as in terms of count of campaign. So that incremental growth definitely is coming from Tier 2, Tier 3 cities. In terms of conversion, like if my salesperson visits a particular X number of businesses in a particular date, conversion rates pretty much are similar in Tier 1 as well as Tier 2, Tier 3 cities.
Okay, okay. Fair. And my second question is related to the unearned revenue. Now we have been seeing that for the full 4 quarters this last year, the unearned revenue would be averaging at about 30% growth, while we are not seeing that in revenue. So my question is, basically, is there a part of billing which is not collected upfront, which is the reason why the revenue is lagging the unearned revenue by a big margin? And I mean -- so basically, what kind of leading indicator is unearned revenue for the -- your future revenues specifically?
See, unearned revenue this particular quarter, March end to March end, it grew about 22% year-on-year. Unearned revenue, ideally, is best looked at on a long-term growth basis rather than just for a specific couple of quarters. Unearned revenue, obviously, has a component of how much money we collect upfront versus how much we collect from monthly payment plan. So that particular [Audio Gap] happened over a period of time.
And we don't account any unrealized revenue.
Yes. This particular unearned revenue is only that particular revenue which has come into the company. So if a particular -- there are 0 receivables on the balance sheet, so whatever unearned is there, that is only for collections already done.
Okay. So that leads me to -- so basically, question that because all the money's already collected, so these growth rates should somehow reflect into the revenue growth as well, maybe with a quarter lag or 2 quarter lag depending on what your duration of contracted average duration? So when...
See, you're right. See, actually, unearned revenue, obviously, has a different base compared to revenue. You are right that if on a 4- to 6-quarter basis, there is a certain percentage of unearned revenue growth that will translate into commensurate revenue growth as well. But to say that, okay, today's unearned revenue growth will reflect that revenue growth 2 quarters down the line, that might not necessarily be true. So if you see for last 4 quarters, there has been healthy y-o-y growth in unearned revenue, which is also reflecting into revenues improving from 9%, 10% level 4 quarters back to 16% last quarter.
Right. So basically, if this level of unearned revenue growth continues, the revenue growth might keep inching up, which is my question, basically, is what...
Yes. If it is -- continues, healthy growth in unearned revenue, that to some extent indicates that, okay, revenue growth should also move in that particular direction.
We have the next question from [ Yoshimin Khari ] from [ Vermalensons ].
Regarding the share buybacks that you do buy annually, I was comparing the share count, there has hardly been any reduction in the share counts in the public issue. Considering the fact that the buybacks are in the nature of a mean base rate and also the fact that our stock price [ are ] stagnating with a [ downward ] bias over the last 3 years, why don't we actually buy back shares directly from the open market? The dividend in the hands of shareholders doesn't actually amount to much since only a small portion of the shares are accepted. Don't you consider that the stock is underpriced? And if you do, doesn't it make sense to increase per-share value than actually buying back shares from the market?
So open market buyback, there is a restriction of 10% of payback capital. Whereas in standard tender offer, it is about 25%. So that's why we opted for [ renewal ], pending of shares.
[indiscernible]. No, but that 10% of the payback capital?
That's right. That's a cap so...
Yes, but 25% is where the paid capital plus [indiscernible]. But 10% of paid capital you use to buy actually the number of shares that are floating, if that count is reduced, the per-share value in the hands of the shareholders increases, right? That doesn't seem to be happening in the case of Just Dial. Or you consider the share to be fully priced?
See, from our particular perspective, we can obviously control the operating metrics that we have. Whatever is better the share is undervalued, overvalued, that, obviously, market forces will take its own course. Now as far as reduction in shares is concerned, towards last buyback, there was a reduction in shares to about -- by about 4% or so. So if you look at last couple of buybacks...
No, no, but..
If we do own market buyback, we could do only INR 88 crores worth of buyback. But in tender buyback, we could do INR 220 crores. Does that solve the problem for you?
Number of shares bought back.
INR 88 crores worth of reserves can be used...
No, no, I'm talking about number of shares that are bought.
Sure. Number of shares...
The share was at 380 per doc previous, and we were -- we paid at INR 800 of buyback [indiscernible] I mean [ we ] hardly got anything because the portion of the share is acceptable. So you are just going to buy back...
See -- okay, let me clarify.
Let me explain, the quantum of amount of money that can be used for buyback, please focus on that. If you do open market buyback, you could do only INR 88 crore worth of buyback. Is that clear? But if you do tendering, you can go up to INR 220 crores. So this is as per regulation. So hence, we had to distribute more amount of money. So hence, we chose INR 220 crores.
I mean, even if you do accretive acquisition, then the shares are bought back, you would still...
We cannot go beyond...
The per-share value doesn't seem to be going up with all your buybacks. That's what I'm trying to say, that while you do it -- because the net of issuance and [indiscernible] the share count hardly falls. You just look at the graph of the share count. Anyway, with all the free cash -- Pardon?
See, the 2 buybacks that we did when the stock price was around INR 350, INR 375 level, we did buy back -- open market buyback where we bought back shares at about average INR 375 per share. The last buyback that we did, as we mentioned earlier, the processes was that whatever cash is there on the balance sheet, a good portion we return -- want to return it back to shareholders, which we did via that particular tender offer buyback. From our particular perspective, it's mainly the operating performance that we can control.
No, I understand that capital allocation policy in the hands of individual shareholder like me. The per-share value is what I'm concerned with. But the per-share value doesn't seem to be going up. I leave that to you. [ I guess that's a part -- ] you can just -- there's no point arguing about that. I don't want to get into argument, but I think the per-share value of Just Dial share doesn't seem to be increasing despite the buyback. I have another question. Don't you think that the platform is trying to do too much? I mean JD Social, I don't see anybody using. Doesn't it make sense to kind of do less and concentrate on doing less rather than doing more?
See, we have always been a horizontal platform. So there could also be an argument that there are platforms which are trying to be very niche, but we also know what is the financial state that they are in. So from[Audio Gap] like last 20 years, we obviously have been focusing on ensuring that we have good amount of free cash flows. The INR 1,330 crores of cash that we have plus another INR 480 crores that we have distributed via 3 buybacks over the last 3, 3.5 years, that reflects the strength of this particular business model.
Okay, I have a last question. I've been speaking to some clients, and everybody is owner of Just Dial, but nobody downloads that. Now everybody is afraid that if we download that, they will get these [ few ] calls, or they will start getting messages or something like that. Actually, I'm using the app for the last 1-year-or-so. I don't get any calls, and neither do I get any pesky messages [ or anything ]. So why don't you actually do an active campaign for increasing the use of the app because everyone [ has a phone ] and people -- the app is not downloaded, and the most people that I know don't have the app on their phone.
See -- Okay. One, obviously, suggestion is relevant. We'll take that into consideration. Second, at this point of time, last quarter, we had 139 million unique users across our 4 platforms. The 4 platforms, obviously, that we have: mobile site, mobile app, desktop site as well as world platform. Being of horizontal, we are agnostic from which particular platform a user comes and happily ends up taking the information. But still, point taken, we would ideally want as many Indians to have our app in their mobile phones.
So in the mind of the user, you're not in the mind of the user. Buying share, we are not able to capture. That affects the stock price. If I tell someone to buy Just Dial's share, is kind of reluctant then because you used to -- or [ you flip ] to different business. I'm not trying to compare it, but they don't understand the difference in the business model. So we don't -- you're not able to capture on mind share, that's what I'm saying. And if you can do something about the -- increasing the per-share value, I would really appreciate that. I mean you should look into whatever administrators have done, you can also do. But the per-share value is not going up. So do you think it's a fully priced stock using it under-priced? Or do you think it's overpriced?
See, on a day-to-day basis, we're obviously focusing on getting our operations right. In the long run, we believe that whatever -- if we are running our business in an appropriate manner, value per share, et cetera, should ideally fall into place.
But it's a long time since the use of your Internet business. Look at the multiple on the Internet businesses in India, which don't even generate the kind of free cash flow that Just Dial generates. We don't seem to be getting a multiple. We have to find a reason for that. I totally think the reason is that the per-share value is not going up, the intrinsic per-share value. That's the only reason I -- maybe I'm wrong. Maybe we are not able to capture mind share. But if you look at the Internet businesses and look at the multiples that they're getting, Just Dial is not even getting 60% of that. That should be concern for the management also.
Yes. Most of the Internet businesses are in not profitable businesses. So hence, there is no multiple as such. Maybe they're doing double-end multiple, except for [indiscernible]. I think it's only a matter of time. Few more good quarters delivered well with top line growth and bottom line growth. Market cannot ignore our stock. So end of the day -- we cannot change the value of the stock. We cannot -- we are -- we can focus on our business, not on how the shares...
While you have focus on the business, and your numbers are really good for the last 1 year, I think that's really nice, good performance. But still, you don't seem to be getting and...
[indiscernible]
Yes, you can look at the per share...
We have the next participant, Mr. Rishit Parikh.
Yes. Sir, just wanted to get a little more detail in terms of the sales productivity that we talked about, right? So what are the key metrics that sales guys get measured on? I want to get some perspective on what could be the volume growth of paid listings addition going forward? And any color on the sales ramp up that we are expecting for FY '20? And where would it largely be concentrated? Is it Tier 2, Tier 3 or Tier 1, some portion will be Tier 1?
See, firstly, on the sales productivity, it just varies from team to team. So whenever a new joiner comes into sales, the first 3 to 6 months, we focus that -- okay, that particular person should focus on converting a particular customer, irrespective of the value. So if a particular sales person is able to convert a customer, that boosts their particular motivation levels which eventually results them getting more high-value customers as well. As in when a particular salesperson tenures, they obviously focus more on value. But incentive structure that we have, again, is linked to for certain grades of sales employees. It is a mix of how much -- how many campaigns they get and what is the value they get. For tenured employees, it's primary linked to what is the total revenue they get. Secondly, to your question on sales ramp-up, as you would have seen in last about 4 quarters, majority addition has happened in our feet-on-street cold-calling team. That is a team which is producing stabilized results. We would want to expand in that particular team itself. As far as data is concerned, there is significant scope to grow that particular team, maybe 2x to 3x of where that strength stands. However, at the same time, we want to make sure that they don't compromise on overall productivity, plus we should have adequate managerial bandwidth to be able to manage such larger teams.
Great. And secondly, in terms of -- sir, this is just more of a broader question. Now we have about, what, 65 million SMEs in India and roughly another 10 million, 15 million-odd freelancers, right? We have about 30% to 35% on the platform already. So going forward, I mean, what is the strategy? Is it more of a hunting strategy or more of a farming strategy? My sense is, I mean, more farming would be easier given your relationships are already existing with those customers and the sales effort would be lower. So what is the strategy? Are we looking to target those set of customers? Or it's more of a hunting side that we're looking on?
See, there are, what, 2 sides to this. One is the database part. As far as database is concerned, we would eventually want to reach that particular 70 million, 80 million listings. Doesn't matter whether those particular listings are monetized or not. We would want that, if there is a police station nearby, we should be able to furnish that particular information. Second part comes as monetization. Monetization, yes, there is a good amount of existing listings itself which are yet to be monetized. But at the same time, whatever incremental listings keep getting added to that database, they also show healthy signs of monetization.
Okay. And last question from my side. Could you provide some color on revenue and margin outlook for FY '20? Just to maintain the current sort of growth rate at about from mid-teens requires a significant uptick in terms of paid listings addition, assuming that your realization stay flattish. Any thoughts around that? What would you think for the coming year?
See, for fiscal '19, when we commence the year, we said that, okay, mid-teens is what we would want to achieve as a first target, which we have been able to achieve. We exited -- last 2 quarters have been at broadly 15% to 16% year-on-year growth. So the focus, obviously, is on getting the inputs right, both in terms of having adequate feet-on-street, expanding our particular database, getting the pricing right, which a combination should help us deliver decent or better revenue growth versus what we have been recently witnessing. Now revenue growth, obviously, has 2 levers: state campaigns growth and realizations. On realization, lately, in last couple of quarters, as you would have seen it, mainly driven more by paid company growth. Going forward, we would want to be able to arrest the downward pressure -- inherent downward pressure that we have on realizations. But a good portion of the growth should ideally come from paid campaigns itself. That is also because we have added to our feet-on-street team. As and when those folks become productive, they start contributing more to campaign first and later to higher values.
Okay. So FY '20 should roughly see slightly better growth than what we've seen in the last 2 quarters, roughly, if I have to take a fair estimate. Is that a fair understanding?
See, as I said, that we are focusing on input at this point of time. What exactly will the revenue growth be, et cetera, that obviously is our output of our efforts, which we'll have to see over time.
At this time, we do not have any further questions from the participants. I would like to turn the program back to you for your final remarks.
Thank you, everyone, for joining us. As mentioned earlier, our focus continues on building on our current growth rate levels, both in terms of top line, bottom line. At the same time, we try to ensure that continuous improvement from the product should result into more users coming to the platform and engaging more. In case you have any further queries, do reach out. We would do our particular best to address. That's it from our side. Thank you.
Thank you, speakers. Thank you, participants. That does conclude our conference for today. Thank you for participating. You may all disconnect your lines. Thank you...