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Jindal SAW Ltd
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Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to Jindal Saw Q4 FY '23 Earnings Conference Call hosted by PhillipCapital India Private Limited. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Vikash Singh from PhillipCapital India Private Limited.Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Good evening, everyone. A very welcome on Jindal Saw Q4 FY '23 earnings call. From the management side today, we have with us Mr. Neeraj Kumar, Group CEO and Whole Time Director; Mr. Vinay Gupta, President and Head Treasury; Mr. Narendra Mantri, President, Head Commercial and CFO; and Mr. Rajeev Goyal, AVP.Without taking much of the time, I'll just hand over the call to Mr. Neeraj Kumar for the opening remarks. Over to you, sir.
Good afternoon, friends. I welcome all my stakeholders on this call. I need to thank all of you for your patience, perseverance and continued interest in us. Yesterday, we had our Board Meeting, which followed the Audit Committee Meeting. The results have been announced, and I'm sure all of you are in the midst of the details of the results, performance and guidelines for future.We are delighted that all our hard work on many fronts are beginning to now show some results. This process was temporarily kind of disrupted, halted, first by the pandemic, then by the extremely volatile commodity prices. But we stayed course, and now I am happy to that results are beginning to show. This year ended 31, March, 2023, appears to be a watershed year. There is a clear demarcation if you see the first two quarters performance and then you see the third quarter performance clearly it shows a breakaway.The fourth quarter performance actually is the first very strong data point towards a trend. And coupled with other fundamentals, which is shared with you, the corporate structure, the order book position, there is enough confidence that we would be able to sustain this momentum that has been created. We have always been saying, Jindal Saw's business model is very well thought out, it's unique, it's robust and it is sustainable. We have chosen as a constant management, you can say, strategy, policy, goal, to give up the short-term flashes in the pan, and we have chosen for a very sustained long-term movement where the momentum carries on. That held us very well during pandemic, where our suffering was largely reduced it was kept within a manageable level.Immediately over the pandemic effect, the moment the business environment turned in our favor, there was a tailwind from the government on infrastructure spent. Some of their major initiatives gathered more momentum. We were absolutely ready and we are beginning to see the results. The results are in front of all of us.Very quickly, let me just walk you through some of the numbers and I would suggest all, let's say, I won't go into too much of nitty-gritties and details, because it's important to understand on, at what juncture we are at and from here what do we see for our future.So let me first start with the annual numbers stand alone INR 15,703 crores of top line which is a first time ever we crossed INR 15,000 crores. EBITDA of INR 1,827 crores out of those, if you have read the notes INR 197 crores is a just accounting entry removing that the EBITDA is INR 1,630 crores as opposed to INR 1,385 crores last year. So a turnover of INR 15,703 crores and EBITDA of INR 1,630 crores as opposed to a turnover of INR 11,243 crores and EBITDA of INR 1,385 last year.If you look at the financial charges, INR 369 crores versus INR 529 crores, there is a INR 50 crore impact, ForEx impact which is just a change in Rupees. So for a like-to-like comparison, this INR 50 crore needs to be removed from the financial expenses of INR 529 crores, and then if you see the increased business performance, you would see that the financial charges are on track.PBT of INR 924 crores, which again removing the impact of INR 197 crores, PBT of INR 727 crores, as opposed to INR 637 crores. So, this gives you a happy picture. But as I have already said in my opening remark, let's look at the fourth quarter, because that appears to be the trend setter. Turn over of INR 4,676 crores as opposed to INR 4,641 and EBITDA of INR 590 crores and a PBT of INR 356 crores as opposed to INR 440 crores, which is appearing there.So, if we take all of these into account, that would give you a sense of what the quarterly performance has been. A turnover of more than INR 4,500 crores, an EBITDA of close to INR 600 crores or INR 590 crores and a PBT of close to INR 350 crores, that's the last quarter.Now, if you look at our order book and the way we have created the capacity, the operations, we are very hopeful that we should be able to sustain this, we should be able to carry this momentum forward.A very quick comment on the consolidated numbers. Top line INR 18,000 crores, INR 1,844 crores is your EBITDA. Here, we don't need to make that impact of INR 197 crores, because that gets collapsed on consolidation. So this is the real EBITDA, a PBT of INR 736 crores. So as we have been saying, the subsidiaries have also started contributing, although this year Abu Dhabi has been profitable, but in terms of its relative performance, relative to its last year's performance, it is on a lower side, primarily because of the commodity prices. For the current year, we expect to do far better even may exceed the year before performance for Abu Dhabi. Similar is the case for US. So the subsidiaries are no longer a drain. Financial support is not being given anywhere. They are contributing. This year, in the current year, we expect their contribution to improve from what they did last year.Very important order book position, $1.4 billion, which is a little better, a shade better than our sweet spot. And we hope that this momentum will continue. There are enough demand. The water segment is doing very well in India. Oil and gas prices are sustaining, because of the macroeconomic factors. And the demand in oil and gas is also looking good.We have backed some very prestigious export contracts. So if you really see this year's performance and if you distribute it over export versus import, various segments, various industries, it's a very balanced growth. The order book also gives us a lot of confidence that there are no spikes. It is a very balanced and a robust growth all around.More important, all of you keep a watch. Our treasury team keeps a very sharp watch. The debt has reduced. The term loan is now INR 1,000 crores, which is if you really make any comparison with anything, it is -- it's far superior than any benchmark in the peer group. So the debt position is very good, the bankers position is very good, they are very well disposed towards us and we are hopeful that the bankers support will continue for our this year's increased performance, improved performance.And let me now touch upon some of the other highlights, which I'm sure would be of interest to you. During the year, we saw the pellets price having some correction, primarily because the commodity prices corrected. Most important, the commodity prices, thereby the raw material prices have corrected, and we expect that now for a few years going forward this would indeed remain the case, and therefore, the next year's performance, we are very hopeful that we would be able to continue this momentum throughout the year.In fact, from the place where we are looking at, we think and we have a lot of confidence with a high level of probability that we can see about 15 to 18 months of very good performance. So that is what we have at this point of time. Definitely 15 to 18 months we think we can definitely have a visibility, we have enough visibility.On the debt side, no major acquisition now planned up beyond Sathavahana. On Sathavahana, I must say a very good effort by Narendra Mantri, who led the structuring and the other acquisition everything, and very ably Vinay would arrange all the financing on time. The NCLT order that we have received is a classic order, takeover, merger, all in one stroke.As we speak, Sathavahana is a division of Jindal Saw Limited, the South India DI Division, which DI capacity has now been enhanced to over 7.5 lakh tonnes. DI segment is seeing a lot of traction because of the water segment, the push of Jal Jeevan Mission, this being an election year. So it looks like the timing of this acquisition is very opportune, and we would be able to make a good start.During this intervening period, it was made sure that the plant is in working condition. So all the equipment have been refurbished, and today the plant is in a running condition and we expect a full year performance of Sathavahana to come into Jindal Saw as well. So, that's one good acquisition which is going to be a step function with the full year performance of Sathavahana into Jindal Saw as a division.I already said Abu Dhabi, now the demand is very good. This year's performance would definitely return to the previous year, means not the last year, but the year before. A very good likelihood it can exceed that as well. U.S. also the same.Others also if you have been following our news very carefully, a few other subsidiaries in related field like stainless, large dia, which were created like a have been incubated and now are getting merged. So now Jindal Saw in India would be one mammoth entity. It would have an American subsidiary and it would have an Abu Dhabi subsidiary. All focused on pipes, absolutely clean corporate structure. That is where and we wish to continue with this kind of a business model, because all the other subsidiaries, all the other associates, all the other companies in the PR Jindal group, the good news is that now each one of them are standalone, viable and they are all rising to their own potential, so that there is absolutely no pressure within the group on any capital call on any of our businesses. All the businesses have now come out of age and are doing well, rising up to their potential.We are also seeing that the supply chain, the important components of ocean freight, et cetera, are kind of stabilizing and is likely to move within a corridor. So at the end, I must say thank you to all for being with us, for your patience, for your perseverance. We are now, it looks like, the early results of all the tough decisions, the difficult path that we have chosen for ourselves, the business model, the corporate structuring, all the effort are now beginning to bear fruit and we have all confidence that it would sustain.So with that, let me just stop and take some questions. I would definitely be able to take some questions. We have some time. Thank you all. Thank you all once again for being with us.
[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Dhananjay Mishra from Sunidhi Securities & Finance.
Yes. Congratulations for very excellent performance and also very strong commentary, especially from the last 2 quarters. You have done very well and also you have done very well, remarkably well in terms of balance sheet debt reduction. So my question is with regard to this domestic opportunity, which we have mentioned in the press release as well as, Jal Shakti mission and then 15,500 kilometer gas pipeline will be added over let us say 3, 4 years. So what is the kind of opportunity for the industry perspective we will have in terms of steel pipe in both the segment, like water segment as well as this gas pipeline segment in terms of we can get some value or whatever for next 2, 3 years for the industry?
See, okay, that commentary that probably you are referring to is it reflects the vision of the current government. And again, if you look at the current political scenario in the country, it would be safe to say that there is more than 50% chance that there would be a continuity in the government, and all of these must rectify. Also, many things, many times that what we have our confidence that the kind of position that now this government has taken the policies or initiatives or economy, directionally to make a huge change may not be possible. Okay, some tweaking of priority emphasis that might happen.So having said that, A, with more than 50% probability of the current government to continue, we believe all this will translate into real demand. Even assuming the other way, there would be some tinkering in the priority, but the direction is not going to change. So both oil and gas and water segment will remain very strong.Very important, now we should not miss the track on. The industrial sector, the defense sector is going to become very strong. And that is a big market for our seamless, stainless segment. We have made inroads into nuclear, defense, space technology. We are getting into instrumentation tubes, higher grade value-added products.So that is, again, something that we are very encouraged. And that would give us a robust demand on multiple fronts, which would help an organization like ours, because we have that robust business model.
Okay, okay. My question was with, I mean, industry size, per se, in terms of piping, like for export market or U.S. market, we have seen volatility in the last 2, 3 years. But domestically, we have not seen apart from COVID hiccups. So just 1, because things have started moving in the last…
Yes, okay. There would not be any volatility. The demand would sustain, because these are all likely to be in terms of either government initiatives, long-term, or large projects. So the demand would sustain.If you see the Jal se Nal Mission, the water grid in every state would continue to come up one after the other. Likewise, all these oil and gas pipelines are very large projects, and they are all likely to continue. They will all fructify. Please see all the oil majors, the refiners, and all those companies like GAIL or ONGC, whatever they have to say. They all are pointing towards a sustained growth over a period of time.
We have the next question from the line of Hetal Gada from Max Life Insurance.
Can you hear me?
Yes.
So, sir, a couple of questions from my side. Firstly, I just wanted to understand, how are you planning to ramp up the Sathavahana assets? What are your plans? And any ramp-up guidance that you can give us for FY '24 and '25?
Okay. Ramp-up guidance means, see --
Volume guidance from Sathavahana.
Okay, that's what I'm saying. Sathavahana is focused on DI. It's focused on gas-furnace, coke oven battery, and power. We already are leaders in all of those. So, we are on the curve. We don't have to learn anything new there. The plant, as I already told you, it has been made sure that it is refurbished. It is in absolute good working condition. So, we have a very strong view that for the full year, we should see a good performance from Sathavahana, because the order book is already there.If you see the order book in DI, it covers a lot of orders from south, where we have a freight advantage and will all come from Sathavahana. So, you can take it that Sathavahana is where -- it's a running train. It's not a train which is going to leave the station. It's a running train, so it will gather momentum and it will cover its distance through the year.
Okay. So, actually, sir, what I was trying to understand that since we -- in our Gujarat plant, they're already operating at 100% utilization. So, in the DI segment per se, can we see how much incremental volumes can we build in? That was my main question. Hence, wanted to understand, given that south is a very big market in its sense.
See, Sathavahana has a capacity of 2 lakh tonnes. And as I told you, it's a running plant. So, we expect a very high level of capacity utilization.
Fair enough, sir. Fair enough. Secondly, sir, given that the order books that you have and the margins that you have reported for this quarter, given, you have also mentioned that you have received good orders from export market and even in the large diameter pipe. So, any guidance on the margin profile for these pipe orders?
Okay. If you look at my fourth quarter EBITDA, without that other income, every accounting entry income, it is around 12.6%, closer to 13%. So, EBITDA as a top line is 12.6% for the fourth quarter. We expect to improve upon that during the year, primarily because the impact of the commodity prices on the raw material would have completely weighed off. So, we expect to improve on that.
Okay. And, sir, on your order books also, I mean, can we say this kind of run rate, this can be maintained because it shows a good healthy revenue stream for us? And given the demand prospects that you're confident on, so, I mean, how would you see the demand pockets from international markets as well as from the domestic markets? Can you just throw some light on that?
Yes. We see both staying firm. There could be some volatility in the U.S., but anyway, our export to U.S. as a total pipe is not that significant. And therefore, for us, the demand both in the domestic and export market should remain firm because now, more or less, if you see the Ukraine and Russia also, things are now settling down and the world is waking up to the new reality. So -- and America being too far, which is not one of our prime export market, for us, as I said, we see a very stable export market.
Sir, there were a lot of orders that was, I mean, key pipelines that were being planned in Europe. So, any color on that, whether we are participating in these orders or -- and anything that we have received from there, if you can comment, sir?
We don't typically keep on announcing order-wise but Europe we have been strong suppliers. We are very strong in MENA region and we would continue to do so.
And these orders, if I may ask, are mainly towards the oil and gas segment?
No. Not with water as well.
Water as well. Okay. Any -- if you can give me a rough breakup of what percentage will be towards oil and gas?
Export order book, just one second, please. Let me see if I have that. Otherwise, why don't you check with Rajeev? He can give that breakup to you tomorrow.
Surely, sir. And, sir, last question on the CapEx front. If you --
No let me -- it's around domestic versus export, April '23, the order book, oil and gas sector. Okay. Between oil and water, it is like a 3:1 and domestic and export in oil is 1:1 and water sector, domestic export is 2:1. It's there in the commentary. If you read, there is a table that will give you that breakup and it will answer all your questions.
Okay, sir. So, lastly, just on any guidance on CapEx for FY '24 and '25?
'24, '25, no major acquisitions. Normal CapEx, so.
And what will be the rough maintenance CapEx and sustenance CapEx for us?
Normally, we do INR 300 crores to INR 400 crores.
Okay. INR 300 crores to INR 400 crores. Fair enough, sir.
The next question is from the line of Deepak Poddar from Sapphire Capital.
Sir, just wanted to check one thing you mentioned about the commodity.
No, I lost you. I can't hear you.
Hello.
Mr. Poddar, you are not audible at the moment.
Hello. Am I audible?
Yes.
Hello.
Yes, yes, tell me.
Yes. Sir, I just wanted to check one thing. Now, media mentioned that commodity prices have corrected. So, that will benefit the EBITDA margin over the course of the period, right, over this year. So, what sort of delta we are looking at or what sort of improvement in margins we are talking about here in terms -- which will largely be driven by this commodity prices correction?
See, as I told you, we see improvement in the EBITDA margin over the last quarter, which is fourth quarter, which is currently at 12.61. We can definitely see an improvement over that. But if you ask me to put a number on it, forward looking, I'm sorry, I'll not be able to give you an exact number.
Understood. Fair enough. I understand. And in terms of growth as well, I mean, we have been talking about good demand and good order book scenario, right? So, what sort of, I mean, growth range we are looking at this year FY '24?
A good -- in terms of, okay, let me just give you a sense. Let me just tell you the growth trend of '22 versus '23, we are likely to maintain that trend in the coming year as well.
In top line, right?
Yes.
Oh, fair enough. I understand. Yes. That's it from my side, sir. All the very best.
The next question is from the line of Sahil Sanghvi from Monarch Networth Capital.
Good evening, sir, and congratulations for a very impressive set of numbers. My first question is regarding the Sathavahana assets. So, the 4 lakh tonne coke oven plant that we have over there, will we be also sending out some portion of the coke volumes in the open market? If yes, I mean, what is the internal capital usage and how much capacity we'll be using for external sales?
In the coke capacity is in excess of what can get consumed at the Sathavahana unit. But then, there is a possibility of getting that coke either to our Abu Dhabi or our Samaghogha unit.So, at this point of time, do we have a huge plan to sell coke in the open market? The answer is no. We will try and distribute it and use it among our units, because I think it is better to do that because, again, after the correction of commodity prices, selling coke in the open market will not fetch a huge margin.
Right, sir. Right. My second question is, is there any slowdown in terms of line pipe orders coming from oil and gas, especially for transmission of oil and gas? Are you seeing any kind of that slowdown, especially from domestic markets?
Let me put your question in perspective. See, oil and gas is always a project-based demand.
Okay.
And therefore, there would be a trend. It would never be a quarter-on-quarter growth or a quarter-on-quarter slowdown. There are enough projects in the pipelines, but the tenders are always timed and it don't have a certain pattern.So, to answer your question, is there a horizon, a lot of on the horizon, are there a lot of oil and gas projects? The answer is yes. But can we put a finger on that this contract or this tender will come in a particular month? The answer is no. It may be a few months here and there, but very robust demand.For a strong player like us, with a strong order book, we will definitely keep our order books full and we will stay busy. That much confidence we have.
Right, sir. Right, sir. And my third and last question is regarding Jindal ITF versus NTPC. I mean, what can we expect during the 23rd May, 2023 hearing? I mean, where are we on those terms and what can we expect on this hearing now?
I'll just read out one sentence from the court order regarding 23rd May hearing. That, now, no adjournment shall be allowed under any circumstances. So the court has finally woke up to the fact. It is a really a little longish order where they have captured this and finally concluded that 23rd, the argument has to begin. No more adjournments would be allowed. So then we hope that it should reach a conclusion pretty soon. Because if you really see the merits of the case, it's an open and shut case.
[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Abhishek Maheshwari from SkyRidge Wealth Management.
Yes. Firstly, many, many congratulations on a great set of numbers. All of our clients are very, very happy to see their portfolios today. Sir, 2 questions. Sir, your volume growth has been good this year in terms of overall volume growth in terms of all pipe. So, if I may ask, what your capacity utilization is at the moment on overall basis, I think?
See, earlier also we had -- I have answered this question on a few calls. Let me try and make 1 more attempt. Capacity utilization for different units mean different things. In pellet, we are almost at capacity. In DI, we are almost at capacity. In seamless, stainless, we are around 75%, 80% of capacity. In large dia, capacity does not mean much, except to suffice, except it would suffice if I say that we have enough capacity to take care of all these foreseeable demands.Largely because in large dia, the capacity utilization doesn't mean much, because there is so much of variation in the pipe sizes that those statistical benchmarks do not mean much. So, to answer your question, I have answered it in a manner where, let me repeat, pellet, we are near capacity, seamless, near capacity - no, 75% stainless, dia near capacity, enough capacity to deal with all the large diameter segments, all the orders that are coming.
Understood, sir. So the peak operating leverage for Jindal Saw has still not been reached, it has still not been reached, right? So at 14% EBITDA you are at, at the moment. I mean, if the demand is good, outlook is good.
Because we haven't reached the peak yet.
It can still do better.
In one of my previous questions, I have already given you a guidance that '22 compared to '23, we are expecting a similar trend '24. So we are nowhere close to the peak. We still have some, a few paces to go. It would require a new cycle of CapEx for capacity expansion or mergers and acquisitions. So before we get into that, so that's a step function. So we still have enough available potential to go some, a few steps more.
Very good to hear that, sir. Second question, sir, I was surprised to hear your positive commentary in USA because, I mean, we might be wrong, but from what we are hearing in news and everywhere, there's recession, debt-ceiling crisis, all that. So we were quite surprised to hear a positive commentary about your USA demand. So can you share some thoughts about this?
Yes, yes. What you are seeing is the global scenario of U.S. economy, debt crisis and all that. If you see, we are that way a pretty small insignificant operator in U.S. where the subsidiary of Jindal Saw -- is a job worker. It does take pipe and coat largely for the oil and gas sector. That sector is doing reasonably okay, and therefore, we are doing good. The other Jindal companies, PR Jindal Group companies have nothing to do with Jindal Saw and therefore this commentary is not relating to them. But this Jindal Saw USA, which is a coating facility, which largely does job work of taking free supply of pipes, coating them and giving it to their customers, is doing reasonably well because the oil and gas sector, there is sustaining and is maintaining its performance. What we are talking about is the larger American economy. There -- this comment doesn't hold true in that context.
We have the next question from the line of Pratiksha Daftari from Aequitas Investment.
First question is on the seamless division. What kind of volume growth do we expect in this year?
Seamless, this year's performance, which is 31, March '23, was also a reasonably good performance. We would improve upon that in the coming year. We have an order book. We have enough. So, we should improve upon that.
Okay. But -- since we are expecting that commodity price pressure is not going to be too high this year, and our maintenance CapEx is also going to be, I mean, we don't have any other major CapEx plans, what kind of debt reduction plans do we have for this year, both long-term as well as short-term?
See, long-term debt is already 1,000. And as we have said, it will follow its repayment trend. We would not try and accelerate it because then the banks start insisting on prepayment and all that premium. So, we are not going to – we are going to follow the repayment trend, which roughly we have seen in a year it comes to around INR 300 crores.As far as working capital is concerned, there is one positive comment. That now, because of the infrastructure push, we may see a reduction in the working capital cycle because the government, if they want a fast implementation, they may start paying us early. But having said that, working capital for a business like ours, it's a trade finance driven business. So, the more business I do, the more trade finance I am likely to use. And therefore, it is difficult to say that in absolute terms there would be a reduction in working capital. But in percentage terms, in relative terms, in terms of DSO, days of sale outstanding, in terms of working capital cycle, we would definitely improve upon that as we have done during this year.
Okay. And what kind of ForEx impact did we have in our interest expense this quarter?
Okay. You missed my opening remark about out of the INR 529 crores that we paid, INR 50 crores is on account of movement in foreign exchange.
Okay. And cost of -- what would be the effective cost of debt for the company right now?
My VAT is below 10.
The next question is from the line of Aman KR Sonthalia from AK Securities.
Yes. Sir, in the consol, as you said, the other income part is not there. It's INR 201 crore rupees?
Yeah, because most of the other income that we have are with our subsidiaries by way of loans and given an interest. So, it all gets collapsed when you consol.
And, sir, you are talking of 15-month to 18-month visibility there. But on a medium term, this is how we see the visibility of the company.
Okay. The kind of hard work that we have done in Jindal Saw, the kind of business model that we have been able to build, we are confident that as long as the economy supports, we would continue our trend in the medium term.
And, sir, what is the scope of business in Hunting Energy and how it will get the business to the company?
This is one aspect that I have not touched upon. The Jindal Hunting Joint Venture is definitely getting commissioned during this calendar year for sure. That would give a flip to our seamless market, because it is one of the facilities of its kind in this part of the world, which both Hunting and us are classifying as a center of excellence for premium connections in the OCTG market. That's a very profitable market. It's a huge market. It's an import substitute, as far as India is concerned, and it has a very good potential in the MENA region and in this part of the world, Africa also.In fact, one of the things which are giving us confidence is the higher value add product which is the 13 Chrome, the CRA, and the higher Chrome. We may be able to even serve the global market, because of the cost advantage that we have in putting this JV into the country. So, a few bullet points for your guidance.Commissioning happening definitely. Huge potential in India and abroad and expect this to be a very profitable venture because of the value-added segment and being the only facility of its kind in this part of the world.
Sir, what type of turnover we can expect when it's run at full capacity?
Let me answer that for you in the next quarter. Let's get closer to the launch and then maybe I will be able to give you some guidance because again, it depends on the ONGC tenders and all of this. So, we have to see a calendar because it has a potential, but again, since it is going to be a contract-based operation, it's better that I give you some guidance in my next quarter call.
And sir, how is the margin in the domestic market compared to export market?
You're talking about what? Hunting or Jindal Saw?
Jindal Saw.
Jindal Saw at present, it balances out. Why do I say it balances out? Because exports are largely very large projects and large projects, some have very good margins, some we take it, they don't have. But if you take on an average export versus domestic, it balances out. We expect now the export market to give us a little more margin because the ocean freight is likely to settle down.
And sir, one last question, how is our pellet plant different to other pellet plants in the country?
Geographical location?
Yes.
Pellets being made from beneficiation of low iron ore, very good quality pellets in terms of you can go up to 67% and when I say 67%, I mean 67% Fe content and the physical quality of our pellets are far superior to some of the most of the other pellets, domestic pellets and therefore, we have a very good export potential even in countries like Korea.
So, is there any scope for extension in this pellet plant?
We are at 1.7, we have been through the improvements in our processes, we have gone from 1.5 million to 1.7 and we hope that we will be able to do that additional during the year, for which we have got all the environmental clearance and all that.
The next question is from the line of Radha from B&K Securities.
Congratulations on good performance. So, firstly on the tax rates, this year we have moved to new tax rate. So, I just wanted to understand what the tax rate should we expect for the next few years?
Between 26% to 27%.
And so, secondly, you were answering a question for the previous participant on Hunting JV. So, I read in the result blog that we have invested INR 15 crores this year in this JV, and previously you have mentioned that we have plans to invest, including working capital around INR 400 crores. So, till date, how much have we invested in this JV and if you say that this is a premium product, then I mean the margins of this, will it be comparable to the stainless steel product or even higher than that?
Madam, okay. Let us distinguish a few things. When we say that, we have invested INR 15 crores into the JV, it is an investment that Jindal Saw has made into the joint venture as equity contribution. When you say a project of INR 300 crores or INR 400 crores total that means my equity contribution, Hunting equity contribution, term debt for project, on top of it, the working capital that will -- banks would provide for the business.So, that INR 300 or INR 400 number, I do not know where you have got it from, but that number talks about total exposure, which is, I repeat, my equity or Jindal Saw's equity, Hunting's equity, term loan and working capital. And also, I will be happy to tell you that the project is financially closed, means all of those have been arranged. So, as far as Jindal Saw is concerned, the contribution is only INR 15 crores, which is likely to stay put for the next few years. We are not looking at any more equity investment, because as I told you, the project has been financially closed.
In terms of margins?
As far as the margin is concerned, and that is where, as I said, I am saving this detailed explanation for next quarter. Please don't, again, get confused. Jindal Saw would be a supplier of raw material to Hunting, which is pipes. All the premium connections and the revenue and the margins would come into the joint venture, which is the Jindal Hunting joint venture. So even though it is a 31% joint venture, so in consolidation, the impact would come. But when you are looking at standalone, Jindal Saw, all you will see is increased pipe production, and value addition in terms of pipes of a higher grade, like 13 chrome, 18 chrome, P91 and all of those. Am I clear?
Yes, sir. Sir, one other question on the JITF and Sulog Transshipment business. So, since we are merging these 2 subsidiaries, so just wanted to understand that, I mean, are these subsidiaries operational and --
No, no, no. See, now you know, but for the NTPC arbitration, we just run those barges, which are, again, sustaining by itself. We don't have any major contract and we don't intend to do any major business in that segment. So, as I told you there, the only thing that we are waiting for is this, a few arbitration and litigation that we have.
So what is the plan post the litigations over with NTPC, with respect to these 2 subsidiaries?
See, with the barge operations, we can just continue because it's, again, a come to a very nice platform where it doesn't take money. It doesn't ask for anything from outside. And at the same time, it just sustains itself and gives us some, you can say, change.
Ladies and gentlemen, for paucity of time, that would be our last question for today. I would now like to hand the conference over to Mr. Vikash Singh for closing comments. Over to you, sir. Vikash, your line has been un-muted.
I just want to thank Jindal Saw Management for giving us the opportunity to host them. And over to you, Neeraj for any closing remarks.
Once again, thank you very much. I really appreciate, acknowledge the support that we have got from our stakeholders, friends. And in last few calls, I did express that fundamentally, we are doing everything okay. But somehow, market is not seeing those changes.Now I'm happy to see that at least, again, there seems to be a little breakaway. Market is slowly, but surely beginning to look at our fundamentals. And I assure everybody that we are on the right track. We have done everything. And we will continue to do everything to create stakeholders' wealth.And with this, I would like to close with a warm welcome and to give all of you a confidence that we'll come back with our first quarter result, which will be a buildup on what we have shown so far. So thank you all very much. And hope to see you on the first quarter call. Bye.
Thank you. On behalf of PhillipCapital India Private Limited, that concludes this conference call. Thank you for joining us. And you may now disconnect your lines.