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ITD Cementation India Ltd
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Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to ITD Cementation India Limited Q2 FY '23 Earnings Conference Call hosted by ICICI Securities Limited. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Anshuman Ashit from ICICI Securities. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thank you, Neerav. On behalf of ICICI Securities, I would like to welcome you all to the Q2 FY '23 post results conference call of ITD Cementation India Limited. Today, we are pleased to host their management -- senior management, which is represented by Mr. Jayanta Basu, Managing Director; and Mr. Prasad Patwardhan, CFO. The meeting will start with a brief by Mr. Patwardhan and Mr. Basu, after which we will open the lines for the Q&A session. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thank you. Good afternoon, everyone. This is Prasad Patwardhan, and I would like to thank you for joining us in this Q2 FY '23 earnings con call. I will start with a brief on our financial performance for the quarter and half year ending September '22.
During this quarter, we have reported total operating income of about INR [ 1,035 ] crores. This is [indiscernible] 28% growth on a Y-o-Y basis. PAT has come in at about INR [ 20 ] crores, which is, again, a 33% growth as compared to last year. On a [ 6 monthly ] basis, our total operating income is INR [ 2,130 ] crores, which is, again, is [indiscernible] 30% growth year-on-year. [ NPAT ] has come in at about INR 50 crores for 6 months as compared to INR [ 33 ] crores 1 year ago. Our debt-to-equity ratio continues to be in a pretty healthy state. We have not [indiscernible] our debt to increase significantly during this period.
Nothing more that I can add at this stage. I will now hand over to Mr. Basu for his initial comments, and then we'll take your questions. Thank you.
Well, thank you all for joining this con call. This is Jayanta Basu. Good afternoon to all of you.
We are able to maintain the same revenue tempo what we had in the first quarter, very close to first quarter, [ following slightly ] with the first quarter and balance [indiscernible]. We have secured some jobs during this quarter. So today, our work in hand is around INR 21,000 crores plus.
I would like to highlight a few projects of your interest, and then I'll pick up your questions. Like the Chennai Metro, 2 underground jobs we have started. We had hardly make around 2% progress. But once -- the procurement of the TBM, the procurement of the printing machines are all in place. So now, hopefully, from May onwards, we'll be able to start the tunneling work on Chennai metro. [indiscernible] as well, all the work has been mostly completed in tunnel part, finishing what is going on. Bengaluru Metro, we have done and on progress of 38% so far. [ Job on hand ] increased a little bit. So if we consider the increased job value, the progress is around 35%. Marine job coming from Udangudi, almost 75% progress we have done. Apart from that, there are few jobs like [ Seabird ] in progress as well under control.
I also want to highlight that there are 4 big jobs that we are not able to recognize the margin because they have not reached 10% progress. And if you consider the revenue from these jobs, which is around INR 200 crores, the margin has not been recognized. Apart from the job what we have now, there are [ 13 ] jobs on the pipeline, and there are 2 [ big -- one is ] marine job [ where we're in one ]. Put together, they're around INR 2,500 crores. And then a few other marine jobs and [indiscernible] the pipeline. So maybe around INR 17,000 crore jobs we are pursuing in various stages.
So that is all from my side. I'll request you to ask questions. We'll be happy to answer them. Thank you.
[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Mohit Kumar from DAM Capital Advisors.
So 2 questions. One is, sir, while, of course, the revenue has been pretty good for the quarter, but the margins, I see the [ gross margin ] declined by 5% and your EBITDA margin, again, declined by 3% Q-o-Q. So what explains this? And [indiscernible] expect in H2? Or do you think there will be some improvement in the revenue you expect in H2? Can you just throw some color?
Thank you, Mohit, for your question. To begin with, I would like to clarify that the results that we are reporting and the format in which we are reporting the results, that is a standardized format and that has some constraints as far as the numbers are concerned. But I would like to mention that although you don't read the result of some of our projects [indiscernible] are being reported separately as a share of profit, this is an integral part of our overall business operations.
So this concept of treating your share of associates and government shares separately, this, to our mind, is not [ very proper ], and those numbers also need to be taken into account when our operating margins or EBITDA and other ratios are [ looked at ]. Having said that, in our opinion, the numbers, the EBITDA margins continue to be over 8% to date. The simple fact is that in the case of the associates, although both -- the number of the top line didn't get reported, the bottom line gets reported here. If you were to consider this top line also, then you will see that the operating profit margin that we had on the EBITDA was up to about 8.7%.
This is especially true in respect of the Mumbai Metro project when the project is coming to an end, and we expect to complete the project in a year or so. So while the top line is not significant, because of our conservative approach on margin recognition in the past, we are seeing that the margins are now getting reported as well [indiscernible] completion. So the proportion of margins that we are recognizing on these projects tends to be higher. And if you were to consider that in our top line as well, as I said, the margin would be about 8.7%, 8.8%.
Is it possible to share our share of revenue from associate and the EBITDA number?
Well, if you look at the top line, the Mumbai Metro project would have contributed about INR 60 crores to our top line in this quarter had we taken that into account for [ the recording purpose ]. And the margin that we are recognizing on this project on a pretax basis is about INR 36 crores, so nearly [ 16% ]margin. This is not really reflective of the performance in this quarter. But because of certain [indiscernible] nearly completion, there is some release of margin which was held back here and getting released in this quarter. And that is why you see the numbers that [ regularly get ] reported. And that is the reason why the margin -- what I'm saying is because of that reason that the operating margin or the EBITDA for this quarter is about 8.7%, which is not the lower number that you think is coming out of the numbers that we are reporting here.
[ That, I understand better ]. Understood, sir. But still, sir, given the first quarter our EBITDA margin without associates was slightly better compared to what we have reported in this particular quarter, there was the question why this is -- why there was a decline in the EBITDA margin of the other projects.
Well, as I said, the EBITDA margin on the projects in joint ventures, especially when they're nearing completion, it is not in a linear basis. So if we have achieved some milestone in this quarter and we are releasing some of the margins in this quarter, the reporting of numbers will be, to some extent, lumpy. So it will not be linear in that fashion. We [ will still continue like we have reported ] in the previous quarter, which is not necessarily [ the similar thing ] will be seen in the coming quarters.
Understood, sir. Any color on the H2 revenues? Do you think [indiscernible] -- any color on the H2 revenues? Or do you think we can maintain this number or we can improve on these numbers?
In the past also, we have said this that -- during the course of this year as well, input cost -- we see a moderation in the input cost [indiscernible] we hope to see an improvement in the margin going forward. And we continue to stick to that view, and we expect to see improvement in the margin [indiscernible] onwards.
Understood, sir. And how do you think about this order inflow opportunity wise or pipeline wise? Can you please comment on?
Okay. I think I should answer this. Last quarter, we secured around [ INR 1,000 crores of awards ]. And as I mentioned that [ 2 was ] -- what is marine job, we are in one, which will be put together around INR 2,500 crores. And then there are another big marine jobs under tender that is [indiscernible]. These would be around INR 4,200 crores plus. So if you add these [indiscernible] and these 2 other marine jobs, INR 6,000 crores of marine jobs that we have.
And then we secured a job at Sri Lanka from Adani, Colombo Container Terminal also. [ Other beside metro ], [indiscernible] there are [ 6 ] tenders which we are getting qualified now comprising of [ around INR 6,000 ] crores. There is a job in [ Kolkata ] Metro under tender, INR [ 3,000 ] crores. And 2 jobs in Project [ Seabird ], comprising [ INR 1,000 crores plus INR 1,000 crores, INR 2,000 crores ]. Altogether, around INR 17,000 crores of job in various segments under pipeline under tender [ stage had been committed ] so far.
Is there something on the railway side which you're interested, sir?
Railway, I don't think -- except [ the 2 tunnels of ] what we are doing north of Bengal and Sikkim, we're not very much in the railway side [ yet ].
The next question is from the line of [indiscernible] from Sunidhi Securities & Finance.
Sir, again, some sort of the accounting reporting which got confused all of us. But I think the similar thing has been clarified in the presentation where you clearly indicated that on a top line of almost INR 1,000 crores on consol basis, the EBITDA is around INR 97 crores, which is more or less equal to the last quarter. So I'm just trying to understand that we are operating at a run rate of close to INR 1,000 crores quarterly run rate now in terms of execution. So where can we see the run rate going into next year where we have 2 prestigious projects and [ lumpy ] -- large projects like Chennai Metro and the Ganga Expressway, which will be there? So when can we expect these 2 projects to start coming into quarterly numbers? And what sort of run rate that we can expect next year will be helpful. And some guidance on the margins because we are already holding around 9% kind of margin, which we guided. So where that can move when the operating leverage for the company plays out next year?
Okay. As far as revenue is concerned, before I speak about next year, coming 2 quarters of this year, the revenue should be more than quarter 1 and quarter 2 because the big jobs are started producing -- I mean, operationally started. So you'll see that there is a rise of revenue in this quarter 3 and quarter 4. Margin wise, it will be around 9% -- 9% to 10% this year. And next year, definitely, the revenue will be more. As I have indicated last time, you can expect a jump of around 25% to 30% throughout the year. And margin guideline will be around 10%, 10% plus. That is the ballpark number I can say.
Okay. And sir, my next question pertains to the debt position. We have seen some amount of cash which has been consumed during this last 2 quarters, and there is some spike up in the debt also. And the interest cost has also gone up a bit. So how do we see debt scenario? And why -- is there any upfront investments that we have done to augment our implementation of both the Chennai Metro and Ganga Expressway? So if you guide on that debt position and how it is going to move going forward will be helpful, sir.
We are going to see some spike in our debt numbers in this current year. As you know, with all these new orders being awarded to us, [ signed, under ] execution, we have seen some CapEx -- we are incurring some capital expenditure, especially on the Chennai Metro project where we'll have to invest in procurement of tunnel boring machines and [ trenching ] machines. So this year, while the working capital that is not expected to rise significantly, we'll see some increase in our [ term ] debt during this year.
Okay. So what was the quantum of these upfront investments to start work on Chennai Metro? Can you share some number on that?
Well, the investment in Chennai Metro will likely be in the range of about INR 250 crores.
How much you have incurred so far?
We have not incurred all of that so far. We have incurred about INR 70 crores, INR 80 crores as of now. The remaining will be procuring and paying for these machines in Q3 mainly and to some extent in Q4.
Okay. And what is the sustainable interest cost, if you could bifurcate it? Because if we try to see the debt portion of INR 500 crores and then we see interest cost of, let's say, INR 30 crores, INR 35 crores per quarter, appears to be a bit high. So what is the sustainable interest cost that is there in the business and the other portion which gets reported in the finance cost? If you could just clarify on that, it would be helpful.
I think you need to understand that the finance cost will be reported in a profit and loss account. It is basically 3 components. One is the debt on the -- the interest on the bank loan that we have, which is about INR 500 crores of gross debt in our balance sheet. In relation to that, we take customer advances [indiscernible] from the clients for whom we are executing the projects. And in respect of some of these customer advances, they are interest-bearing as per the contractual terms. So that interest also [ we'll be charged ] and we'll report it under the finance cost we had in our P&L account.
And the third element is the [ senior ] guarantees that we need to issue for procurement of material or, under contractual terms, [indiscernible] [ advance-related issue ]. So there's a cost effect to these [ senior ] bank guarantees as well. So largely, these are the 3 main components which go into our finance costs. Comparing the finance cost only with the debt on our books would not really be appropriate. And it could lead to some wrong conclusion if you say the interest cost for the quarter is INR 35 crores [indiscernible] INR 500 crores, whereas that is not really the case.
So sir, the sustainable number building into, let's say, next 2 quarters and maybe next financial year, what is that something that you could guide to us in terms of this cost?
Well, our interest cost over the past has been in the range of 3% to 4% of our revenue. And so we may see some increases now because overall, we are seeing -- in the economy, we are seeing a rise in the interest rates as well. So it could go up marginally. But as the new orders start delivering in terms of cash flow, in terms of revenue, we expect the interest cost to moderate again. But the ballpark, between 3% and 4% of revenue will be something where we can [ look forward to ].
The next question is from the line of [indiscernible].
Two questions from my side. First of all, we said the work in hand in [indiscernible] is around roughly INR 21,000-odd crores. And we see -- if I look at the order book, the June order book was standing at 20,400 [indiscernible] 20,500. Now what is the order inflow we are seeing? And how is the traction going ahead specifically for this [ road ] construction segment? I understand about the project we have been going on. But I just wanted to know the order inflow from the [ railroad ] construction, and specifically, how order inflow has been going right now?
Okay. Road, as you know, that we secured one job from Adani Group, the Ganga Expressway, which is around INR 5,000 crores. So we are happy with that, and we don't want to venture further in the road unless that job is substantially completed. There are a lot of road [indiscernible], but we don't compete because competitions are very high. Otherwise, maybe in an underground metro, we're pursuing -- as I just mentioned, there are big jobs, 4, 5 jobs we are pursuing, altogether around INR 17,000 crores or so in the pipeline.
Okay. So what's the total order inflow for this quarter will be?
This quarter, the order inflow has been about INR [ 1,000 ] crores. But overall, [ Q3 '22 ], our order inflow to date has been about INR 8,000 crores. And in addition to that, we are [ lowest ] on orders worth about INR 2.5 [indiscernible] crores.
And that may come this quarter.
That is likely to materialize and be awarded to us during this quarter, that is, [ Q3 '23. ]
Okay. And sir, my second question would be on our revenue guidance. So in a previous con call, we have said that we have decided around [ INR 1,300 crores per ] quarter. And now we are easing up to 25%, 30%, which is around INR 1,250 crores to INR 1,300 crores per quarter. So what led to, you can say, slightly -- are we being conservative or being [ fascinated by some environmental ] things like that [indiscernible] industry scenario, which has been led to such a guidance?
No, not like that. We still maintain whatever we have said in the last con call. Particularly, Q2 is a little subdued because of monsoon, but still it was almost close to Q1. And you will see the rise in Q3 and Q4, and it will be in the range of INR 1,400 crores, I believe, for the next 2 quarters.
Okay. And sir, just one question [indiscernible]. What will be the total Adani order book in the total order book? So what is the size of Adani specifically? Can you just share that number [indiscernible]?
[indiscernible] [ one road ] that is INR 5,000 crores. And in [indiscernible] INR [ 1,000 ] crores and some other jobs. So around INR 6,500 crores to INR 7,000 crores.
So we can assume 30-odd percent of the total order -- work in hand has been associated with Adani?
Close to 30% basically because of the road one, which is still in the INR 5,000 crores.
Next question is from the line of Abhay Lodha from Sanmati Consultants.
Am I audible, sir?
Yes, yes.
Congratulations for the good set of order books the company has procured in the last 6 months and also as well as the new pipeline orders this company expects like marine order and [ others ]. But we have been disappointed by the margins and the performance of the company this quarter as well. But I have 2 questions, sir. Basically, we are paying interest on deposit advances from the customer. Our interest component is really 3 parts [indiscernible]. So one we see on guarantees. Another is on the loans taken by the company. A third component is the interest on [ advances issued ] by the customer. If we see [indiscernible] other companies are changing this industry or we are only [ saying ]?
No. These advances from the client, it is very much industry practice. Some clients, they pay advances without an interest. They are mostly private clients, like Adani or [indiscernible] or clients like them. All the government clients, whenever you take advance, you have to pay interest. And it's varying, 9%, 10%, in that range. It is common for everybody.
Sir, another question is, sir, we are paying -- although it's on the balance sheet, we are paying these royalties of parents. So can you tell us the basis of the royalties being paid to the parent company?
First of all, there is a lot of technical support we [ got from the client's parent ]. We use their logo and the brands, and there are many facilities we enjoy because of the parent. And today, we have grown up so much, the support from them in the airport segment, underground segment. So there are several issues which contributes to our growth getting support from the parent. That is [ the royalty ].
But I just wanted -- so it is being paid on sales or it is being paid on profit and what percentage thereof?
Yes, we [ will pay during the turnover ] of the company, and it is about 0.5% [ the royalty ].
0.5%. Sir, we have got decent order book position. If we are a parent company, [ we say that turnover is the goal ], but the royalty amount [indiscernible] will go up substantially in coming years. But since we have got decent order book, what could the parent -- how the parent is helping us to mobilize the resources and the execution of the orders in the [indiscernible]. Can you explain [ a little bit ]?
Well, technical support is always there whenever we want underground metro, which is a very technical job. If you see that today, there are many [indiscernible] working in an underground metro. Without them, we cannot execute. That is an important part. And sometimes, the airport sector segment also, we get a lot of support. So obviously, technical support are there from their side, which is...
Sir, my last question and broadly, just how -- what is the growth we can expect in FY '24 and FY '25? '23, you already told about INR 4,500 crores or INR 4,800-something crores, between INR 1,300 crores, INR 1,300 crores plus INR 1,000 crores, INR 1,000 crores. That comes to INR 4,500 crores, [ so anything between ] INR 4,800 crores. But just I wanted to [indiscernible] order backlog and how your order backlog in pipeline as well. So how much help we can achieve in 2024 approximately? Maybe [indiscernible] 5%, 10%, 15% [indiscernible].
Yes, next year, it will be close to 30%, and then '24, 24, 25. That will be a little less [ around ] 25%.
[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of [ Vipul Shah from Sumangal Investments ].
Sir, my question is regarding margins because one of our peers have recently reported their results and they are consistently reporting EBITDA margins of 14%, 15% and we are at 8%. So there is a huge gap between our peers and our margin. So what is the reason why we are taking such low-margin jobs?
Actually, Prasad has explained a little bit. But even if you consider that around 8.8% is the margin or 9-point-something if you calculate in a different way. But basically, we have to consider that whatever job is [indiscernible] now, it has got the legacy of a few bad jobs, and we are not drawing any margin from them. And whatever job -- good job we have secured now, they're yet to start producing results in terms of the revenue and therefore, the margin. We'll [ be free to ] find improvement from next year in our margin, EBITDA [ or debt, whatever ].
So stripping out these bad jobs which you described, so what should be the [indiscernible]? Or put it differently, recent jobs we are taking, at which EBITDA margin range, sir?
Normally, in our construction space, it is around [ 10% ] EBITDA. Sometimes, if the job is very lucrative, if you want to do -- get it, we put around 10%, sometimes 13%, in that range. 10% to 15%, we can say.
But sir, if I don't remember, we have reached that margin range in different times in the recent [ 3 ] years -- in the [ 3 years ]. So when these bad jobs which we have taken are going to end so that we can expect improvement from that point?
So first, I'll answer your first query that we have not done -- if you see our results 3 years back, it used to be around 14% of EBITDA. Correct, Prasad?
Yes.
[ Even ] it is more than 14% EBITDA. Recent past, we secured 2 jobs, which has not given us margin. In fact, we have lost a lot of money there, and the effect is going on now. But that -- definitely, it will not continue more than before -- beyond this year, as I have said before.
So next year, should we see normalized margin?
Yes, yes.
[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Pushkar Jain from Joindre Capital.
Congratulations on the good set of numbers. My question is also about [ the now ] legacy project that is [ hitting our ] margin accretion. I think you mentioned that by the next year, all the projects will be completed, right, the legacy projects which are not contributing to the margin.
Yes, yes. By March, April maximum.
And sir, on the order book, what is the average time frame in which we can complete this entire [ order book ]?
Well, there's a mix of segments. If you see the underground metro, they are around 36 months to 42 months completion time. And most of the marine jobs are around 25 to 36 months. So on an average, it is 3 years, you can say.
Okay. So like the entire order book ideally should get in the revenue in 3 years, right?
Yes, we can say that.
[Operator Instructions]
The next question is from the line of Nikhil Kanodia from HDFC Securities.
Am i audible?
Yes.
Sir, firstly, congratulations on the robust order book -- continued order book in this quarter. Sir, my question was regarding the Bengaluru Metro project. So what is the kind of contribution that we have achieved in this quarter?
Bengaluru, we have underground and elevated, both. So you're asking which one?
Sir, for both of them, what was the revenue and the margins that we have made during this quarter for the Bengaluru Metro projects, both ones?
Yes, the revenue contribution has been in the range of INR 60 crores, INR 60-odd crores. And in this quarter, we have booked some losses on this project of around INR [ 25 ] crores.
That is for the elevated.
That is for the elevated metro. The underground metro project is performing very well. It is growing about INR 30 crores, INR 35 crores a month [ of the lower ]. And in terms of the margin profile as well, it is doing well.
Okay. Sir, can we say that the difference, that is when the margins for the stand-alone will be consolidated as majorly because of the elevated metro project?
Well, actually, the PAT number that we have reported on both stand-alone and consolidated business, there's not much difference in it. And the loss that we have booked on the Bengaluru Metro project also appears in both [indiscernible] consolidated numbers.
Next question is from the line of [ Ramanan Venkateswaran from MK Ventures ].
Just wanted to check. You talked about this INR 200 crores of revenue this year, which probably has not reached the threshold level of recognizing the margins. Can you elaborate a little more on that?
Okay. As a policy, unless we have 10% progress, we don't recognize the margin on that project. So if you consider jobs we just recently secured, one job at Delhi, Kasturba Nagar, and then [indiscernible], so 2 jobs and 1 marine job, those we have done work -- I mean, revenue wise, around INR 200 crores plus. But we have not recognized any margin on them because it is less than 10%.
Sir, if I were to adjust this, I mean, if I would account for the fact that this INR 200 crores of revenue has not attracted any margins -- I mean, has not got any margins, then your actual margin turns out to be closer to about 10.5%, a little more than 10.5%. Would I be right in that?
You are absolutely right.
[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Abhay Mal Lodha from Sanmati Consultants.
There is one question [ we left for ] follow-up, which are opportunity. Sir, this quarter, from the cash flow statement, I have noted that we have added [indiscernible] [ plant and machinery ] in the first half of this year. Sir, just I wanted to know, this is the money [indiscernible] spent is on mobilization of the machinery purchased by the company [indiscernible]?
The large part of it is capital expenditures, construction, plant and equipment that we have procured for execution of these new projects. So that is what we are [indiscernible] disclosed in the capital [ working business ].
Okay. Sir, how much [indiscernible] the company expect to spend in second half, sir?
Well, as I mentioned, of the Chennai Metro project, we expect to incur CapEx of about INR [ 250 ] crores this year. There will be some other CapEx as well which we'll incur on some of the other projects that we have under execution. So out of that, about INR 100-odd crores have been reported in the first half. And the remaining, we expect to spend that amount and acquire those plant and equipment in the second half of the year.
Approximately, for the full year, how much this money [ can go ]? Sir, INR [ 300-odd ] crores?
Yes, between INR 250 crores and INR 300 crores. [ With regards to the ] timing, we'll have to see how it goes. But we expect it to be in the range of INR 250 crores to INR 300 crores [ in the second half ].
[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Anshuman Ashit from ICICI Securities.
Congratulations on the robust order book that we have. Sir, I have one question on the Ganga Expressway. So last time, you had said that we were awaiting the financial closure on the project for Adani to happen. After that, we'll start the execution of the project. So has that happened? Just checking that.
Yes, that has happened.
So you started the construction [ of the port ]. And sir, what is the time line of this?
Time line is 27 months, and third of November is the [indiscernible].
Third of November is the [indiscernible].
Participants, that was the last question for today. I now hand the conference over to the management for closing comments.
Thank you, ICICI Securities and everyone for joining us for this Q2 FY '23 earnings call. We look forward to your continued support and interacting with you again next quarter. Thank you so much.
On behalf of ICICI Securities Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us. You may now disconnect your lines. Thank you.