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Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the IFGL Refractories Limited Q2 FY '22 Earnings Conference Call, hosted by Monarch Networth Capital Limited. This conference call may contain forward-looking statements about the company, which are based on the beliefs, opinions and expectations of the company as on date of this call. These statements are not guarantees of future performance and involve risk and uncertainties that are difficult to predict. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Sahil Sanghvi from Monarch Networth Capital Limited. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Yes. Thank you, Sasan. Good evening to all. On behalf of Monarch Networth Capital, we welcome you all for the IFGL Refractories Q2 FY 2022 Earnings Call. We are delighted to host the management on IFGL today, and we have Mr. Kamal Sarda, CEO of IFGL Refractories. So without taking any much time, I will hand over the call to Mr. Kamal Sarda for the opening remarks. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thanks, Sahil. So I start. Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. I hope all of you are safe and well. Thank you for joining us on IFGL Refractories Quarter 2 FY '22 Earnings Conference Call. Along with me on the call, we have SG, our Investor Relation Advisors, apart from Monarch, who are conducting this. We uploaded the results presentation on the stock exchange, and I hope everybody had a chance to go through the same.Before starting with the business highlights, I would like to mention that we have elevated Mr. Amit Agarwal as CFO of the company. He has been with us for 10 years. This has been approved by the Board of Directors on 13th November 2021. Now on the business highlights, I'm pleased to share that we have posted the highest ever quarterly total income during quarter 2 FY '22 on a standalone as well as on consol basis, recording INR 202 crores and INR 314 crores, respectively. Along with the increase in revenue, the operational expenses have also increased due to higher raw material costs, higher freight costs and also some travel expenses, which were not present in the last financial year. Despite all this, our -- we continue to be quite healthy, both on profitability as well as cash.Steel demand continues to be strong on the back of the strong economic recovery, increased investment in CapEx, revival in real estate and also some revival in auto sector. All these factors have led to strong growth in the demand from steel, resulting in increased order inflow for our factories. Domestic steel companies operated at optimum capacity during this quarter. During quarter 2, we also commenced the first phase of Vishakhapatnam plant built at a total cost of about INR 30 crores. Commercial production of monolithics has commenced from 1st of September 2021. The installed capacity of this Phase I plant is 48,000 metric tonne per annum.Our efforts would be to ramp up the capacity utilization on the plant in a quick and time bound manner, backed by the strong demand from the steel producers. Phase II is on full swing and expected to be completed by quarter 2 of FY '23. Going ahead, we expect the demand to be steady with unlocking of the economy. With the enhanced capacity, we expect to improve the scale of business, which will lead to further benefits in operating leverages paying out in the long-term [indiscernible].Let me now come to the financial highlights of quarter 2 FY '22. Starting with the standalone. Total income increased by 20% year-on-year to INR 202 crores. EBITDA was marginally down to INR 34 crores, down by 6% year-on-year. EBITDA margin stood at 17.1% compared to 21.7% in the corresponding quarter. That was down by 13% to INR 16.6 crore. On the consolidated financial highlights, so this total income in total consolidated figures includes our international subsidiaries in U.S. and Europe. Total consol income increased by 26% to INR 314 crores. Consolidated EBITDA was marginally down by 1% to INR 40.7 crore. Consolidated EBITDA margin stood at 13% compared to 16.6% in the corresponding quarter. PAT was down by 3% to INR 20 crores.On brief highlights on the international business. EI Ceramic, our U.S. subsidiary. Total income stood at $4.4 million, up 13% year-on-year. EBITDA was USD 0.23 million, down 51% year-on-year. PAT stood at $0.12 million, down 63% year-on-year. Monocon, our U.K. subsidiary, total income stood at GBP 7.1 million, up 5%. EBITDA stood at GBP 0.33 million, up 50%. PAT was GBP 0.22 million, up 82%. Hofmann Ceramics, which is our German subsidiary. Total income was EUR 1.97 million, up 54% year-on-year. EBITDA stood at EUR 0.15 million compared to a loss of EUR 0.07 million last year. PAT was EUR 0.16 million compared to a PAT loss of EUR 0.17 million last year. With respect to liquidity, we remain net debt-free with a strong balance sheet and strong cash flow from operations. Cash and cash equivalents stood at INR 273 crores as on September 20, '21.So these are the highlights of the financials. I now leave the floor for any questions if you have. Thank you.
[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Rohit Balakrishnan from iThought PMS.
So sir, as you mentioned in your opening remarks that we posted highest ever sales for us in the standalone and the consolidated level. So just want to understand what is the capacity utilization that you're working on right now. And do you see this kind of top line sustainable over next few quarters? And if you can also share what is the -- what are -- I mean, this increase in top line, what is the volume versus price increase that we would have seen? That was my first question.
Okay. So the top line growth is a result of 2, 3 factors. There has been a volume growth definitely because we make multiple products and so it is difficult for me to share those details. But yes, there has been a reasonable volume growth. Plus we had -- in the last quarter, we had some price increases also from some of our customers. I will not say many, some customers have given some price increases also. So both the points put together, I think the growth has been there. As I mentioned, demand has been quite strong in quarter 2, and I see quarter 3 also, the demand is quite strong. I will not comment on what kind of results will be there in quarter 3, quarter 4. But I see a good demand for our products in the coming quarters.
What is the utilization, sir, right now of your existing capacity?
Utilization will be very, very similar because we have been adding capacities also, like we have added Vizag capacity, although it has just started, but we have done various additions, debottlenecking in [indiscernible] also. We should be at around 70% levels on an average, all the items put together.
Got it. And, sir, this CapEx that you are currently doing, so how much capacity will that add in terms of tonnage or in terms of incremental sales, assuming you operate at your peak capacity?
I think I mentioned is that that the Vizag capacity is being built for 48,000 metric tonne of monolithics per annum. That should result in a turnover of somewhere around INR 100 crores, INR 120 crores, depending upon the product mixes, which we sell.
Got it. Understood. And sir, you mentioned that this quarter, I mean, there were some pricing pressure. So you also alluded to the point that you had some price increases from your customers. So if I were to look at any -- not just this quarter or the previous quarters in the past last financial year, I mean, over a longer period of time, I mean, is there a way to say that this is a particular EBITDA per tonne that you earned? Or this is the kind of EBITDA margin consequently that you look at in the normalized period? I had missed and last year was, obviously, there was lot of disruptions or some costs were not be there. And this year, again, some costs are paid up for the raw materials. For a longer period of time, if one were to analyze your business, what kind of margins one should look at on a sustainable basis?
Difficult question. But I have always maintained that whatever we have done in the last 5 years, the margin trend, which EBITDA margins, which we have had, I would say, somewhere around 15% to 17% is what we can look at. So maybe barring some cost pressures here and there. I would say somewhere around 14%, 15% should be a margin we should look at.
[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of [ Hitesh ] from AKSA Capital Advisors.
Sir, how is the raw material scenario now, both with regard to the supply from China and also with regard to the pricing on a sequential basis?
Yes. So supply, I would say, the raw material -- mostly the raw material are available at a price, okay? There are disruption, major disruption is due to the logistics, the container availability, ship availability. So and that's something which we have been facing primarily for the last few months. What I understand, the container availability issues are slightly easing up. But China, as you all must be aware, they had the cut down on power consumptions in the last 1, 1 month or so. So that is causing a bit of a disruption in our raw material availability, a particular area of China. And I am told that the part of restriction is being eased out. So we'll have to watch in the next 1 month or so. But the raw material are available at a price. The prices are -- have gone up. The logistics costs have gone up. That's what I have mentioned in my speech also. So that cost is still high.
Would it be possible to quantify what is the RM inflation on a sequential basis now?
No, I don't think I have calculated that way.
Okay. But is it anything to be really worried about it with regard to the spike because I believe on a Y-o-Y basis, a lot of the raw materials have moved up by 20%, 30% also over that of last year. Do we still see that trend continuing with regard to these prices increase because...
As we speak, the raw material increasing trend has more or less, I think, have plateaued. There have been no significant increase in the last 15 days or so. So we hope that we have reached the peak but I think next -- as I said, next couple of months would be crucial because China goes into a severe winter. We will have to watch the winter as well as still the Chinese New Year. So next couple of months will maybe either remain the same, but availability challenges would be there. But I think thereafter, it should come down.
Got it. Got it. Sir, and your response to the previous participant with regard to the long-term sustainable EBITDA margin. If I look at your last 5 years number, it's only the last year where you had about 15-odd percent margins. Prior to that, your gross margins were also slightly on the lower side and your EBITDA margins were also about 12%, 13%. You're still confident to maintain this level of margins? And is it because of the new CapEx that has come on stream where you feel the margin profile is lot better, your thoughts on that?
I honestly didn't get your question. Like...
No, no. If I look at the 5-year number, I think the margins are still around 12%, 13% only. But what you had guided was about 14%, 15% as a margin on a sustainable basis.
These are because of volumes have grown in our case. So that's the reason why I'm talking of. I'm not saying this is the -- that's the reason why I don't want to give any kind of a margin thing. But if you want to look at it, I think you should look at about somewhere around 14% on a consol levels. Yes, that is something which we are looking at because both the costs have increased, but we are also looking at the price -- selling price increases, which we are getting indication from the customers also. I think it should be okay.
Okay. Sure. And sir, this goodwill, which is there with us, how much is less more to be written offs?
I think it should be what 4.5 years left -- 4.5 for that write-off.
Okay. But the tax impact of this is anyways taken on our books, right, last year?
Yes, yes. Tax impact is from 1st of April 2021, it is finished. In fact, yes, 1st April 2020, it is finished. Yes.
The next question is from the line of Pratim Roy from Batlivala & Karani Securities.
I have 2 questions. First of all, if you can throw some light on the demand scenario? You mentioned that 3Q and 4Q will be robust like 2Q. So which sector you are expecting -- I mean, steel is there because that is the major consumer of the refractories. But if you can throw some light in a demand perspective, where you are getting good demand perspective, whether it's a secondary mill or it is a primary steel mills they are procuring more, if you can throw some light on that? Then I'll put my second question.
So demand is there all across. I would say, the majorly demand would be there in the major steel mills because they are producing full capacities. Okay? So the demand is there. I think our presence is majorly to the large steel mills and in the medium sector. But on the [ medium ] sector, our business is increasing. So they are also having a reasonably good demand. So it's all across, I would say. I'll not put any kind of a sector-specific demand increase.
Okay. And one more thing, sir, raw material, you mentioned that the logistic cost or raw material price also shoot up. So already, this is pricing in our current realization? Or are you going to take any kind of price hike in the near term?
See, these are all continuous issues. This cannot happen in 1 quarter or 1 month. As I said, there will be some price increases in the current quarter, next quarter. These are all continuous process. It cannot happen in 1 day.
Okay. Means already -- means, that means margin pressure will be there if the raw material prices will go up? Means, we are not going for any price hike as of now, right?
I will not like to put any kind of detailing on this. Let's see how the price -- as I said, the customers are willing to give. They have given price increases. Customers are willing to give pages now because they want more material on time rather than handling on prices. So we are hoping that any increases will get offset by any kind of increases in the cost.
[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of [ Amit Shah ] from Ace Securities.
Sir, I have a couple of questions, sir. Sir, can you explain what are the factors leading to drop in EBITDA margin on a Y-o-Y basis?
I mentioned in my speech. So there have been some input cost increases like raw metal prices had increased. The one of their large impact was on the ocean freight, both inbound ocean freight as well as the outbound. I mentioned to you in the speech that in freight from China to India has increased almost like 10x. In that 10x, there is a factor which we can safely keep for all the other sectors, whether the inbound or outbound. So these are the 2 major, major impacts of the price cost increases compared to Y-on-Y.
Okay. Sir, and what is your outlook on steel demand and as well as demand for the factories for next year?
Sorry to interrupt you, Mr. [ Amit Shah ]. There is a disturbance coming from your line, sir. Request you to please self mute your line.
So should I repeat my question?
Yes, please.
Okay. Sir, what is the outlook on steel demand as well as demand for the factories in the next year?
I think you all must have a better information on this. But steel demand, as we understand and also the stalwarts of the steel industry say, the demand will be very, very good in the next year.
Okay. Okay, sir. And sir, lastly, can you give us any outlook on each of our international pursuits?
Can you ask specific questions? I had already mentioned in my speech, what is there on. You can go through the speech. I had mentioned what is there. That way, it's a very generic or you can call me separately. This would be a longest question.
The next question is from the line of [ Virat Shah ] from [ NM ] Securities.
Sir, I have a couple of questions. Sir, what do you plan to do with the excess cash in the books?
It's kept. We -- so this cash -- cash is there for the kind of expansions, which we do. All the expansions, which we have done, spent so far is from the cash generated from the business. And we are looking for some opportunities for any kind of acquisition. If there is anything, we have the cash just ready.
Okay. So what's the expected revenues on the position of Vishakhapatnam Phase I...
I just I think I answered in my previous -- one of the previous questions.
Okay. Sir, what do you see, expect the new plant of Vishakhapatnam to optimize the optimal level?
Pardon? Sorry?
When do you expect the new plant of Vishakhapatnam be utilized at optimal level?
It will take 2, 3 years.
[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of [ Kunal Gupta ], individual investor.
So sir, continuing on this Vizag plant, so you said 2, 3 years for optimization. So sir, any estimation on utilization rates for this year or next year?
No. We are not capped. This year will be only the stage where we will do various approval processes with the customers. So there will be not much. Next year, I'm not -- maybe not made a plan, but it should -- we should look at about 20%, 25% levels.
Okay. Okay. Sure, sir. So sir, supplies from here will be for domestic customers? Or will we export also?
Mainly domestic customers, but we have already -- well, we have already done one export from there. So maybe some exports also may happen from there. So it's majorly for the domestic market.
All right, sir. And sir, just wanted to ask you, what's the status on this onetime write-off of goodwill as we had decided? So are there any pending approvals on this process?
Yes. So we are still working on the scheme. There are some discussions continuing with the legal team and the auditors. So it takes some more time. I will not be able to give you exact deadline when this will be finalized.
The next question is from the line of Viraj Mithani from Jupiter Financial.
Sir, my question is about the structure of industry. Can you tell -- give me some idea about the competitors in India as well as the world, like how are we placed compared to others?
In India, and I think there are these -- the competition is there from Vesuvius, RHI. You have Tata Refractories. You have OCL, a quite number of competition that affect the large refractories there. Calderys in India is there, though they are not our direct competitor, but they are there in the refractories space. Worldwide also, these [ guys ] are there. Vesuvius, RHI, Krosaki.
So I understand Vesuvius has been the largest market share order in the world and even India. Is it the same thing or we are better than them?
They're larger than us. They are substantially larger than us.
Okay, sir. Okay. So but do you think with this infrastructure focus, things will get better, the margins will evolve or peter out say next in the medium term, the 3 to 5 years?
We hope things will improve. I think we only work to improve the margins. But definitely, what I can say is the volume growth, I can see good growth in the Indian market as well as the overseas market.
[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Rohit Balakrishnan from iThought PMS.
I think you tried to answer the question. I just wanted do maybe this time ask in a different way. So we have a goodwill, which we write-off at about INR 6 crores, INR 7 crores. Last quarter was much less. This quarter was about INR 7 crores. I could be wrong in my understanding. If my understanding was correct that given that we've taken a onetime write off, we would not have the amortization going forward. So if you can probably help me understand, if -- I could be wrong in my understanding, as I said. If you can just help me understand what is that -- like what was that onetime write-off for in -- what was -- I mean, what is the way forward?
So I think if you could go through our the AGM notice and all. This onetime write-off, which we have planned is adjusting the share premium account with the balance of goodwill. Okay. So that's how we decided to knock off both share premium and goodwill from the books, which will improve the return on capital employed. Of course, that was the objective. So that process is on. We are in the discussion with the legal team and the auditors also. So this may take a few more months before we finally go to NCLT because it has to go to NCLT for approval. I think NCLT is the -- I think the authority which will approve. So when NCLT approves, we cannot put a time frame, but normally, they take about anywhere between 3 to 6 months' time. That's a minimum time they take.
Got it. And how far are you from going to NCLT to get this approval, sir?
Yes. It will take a few more months. I will not be able to put a time frame, but it will take few more months. There are some legal documentations which are still pending to be made. And we are in the process of getting some certificates also. So it may take a few months. I'll not be able to really put a time frame there because I think we have already delayed on that. So putting a time frame...
But will it be suffice? I mean it's safe to say that probably before this end of -- before end of this financial year?
No, it will not happen. It will [indiscernible] next financial year.
You reaching to the NCLT before this financial year?
No, no, no. I'll not say that, but as I said, be any adjustments will happen, any only in the next financial year. It may not happen in this financial year.
The next question is from the line of Saket Kapoor from Kapoor & Company.
Yes. [Foreign Language] sir. Sir, as you have been mentioned in the presentation that there will be contribution from the Phase I expansion from the Vishakhapatnam project. So how should -- what should be the likely contribution in terms of the top line and utilization level for H2?
H2, they'll not be much. So it will all get into the next financial year.
Okay. And on a fully utilization level, sir, what could be contributions get depending on today's pricing?
It should be about somewhere around INR 100 crores.
Next year, full year, INR 100 crore contribution from the Vishakhapatnam?
As I said, you asked me a question about the full utilized. I did not mention next year at least from the utilized.
Okay. Sir, so can tell you give some color, sir, how the utilization level should be ramped up?
So it will take 2, 3 years before we go to a reasonable utilization levels. Because it has to go through a process of various approvals of each customer.
Right, sir. Okay. And sir, traditionally, for our industry, is there is any nonlinear trend for H1 and H2 seasonality factors plays into or we have consistency over on behalf...
There are no nonlinear I think. It's almost like a flattish type.
Correct, sir. Sir, when we look at our global part of the business and outside India, there the margins are typically very, very low than what we do for domestically. So what are the key factors that has kept the margins on the lower side? And what are the core corrections? Since we are in a good steel cycle, what are the corrections that can happen, that will -- that would add to the margins going forward for businesses outside India?
See, the margins differ from product to product, even in the products which we sell in India, where our various product, the margins are lower. So this is one of the major reason [ why the ] few products are mature products where the freight sensitivity is very high. So these are some of the major reasons, mature product and mature market. Market is also not growing. So that's one of the major reason why the margins are lower in the -- in some of the companies, which you feel.
Correct. That is the product mix you had -- and it is the product mix. The other -- that is the reason why the...
Yes, yes. Mainly the product mix, mainly the product mix.
Yes. So there is no -- we cannot expect any changes because they are aligned in that with, and these are below margins?
So the margins had been there, very, very similar in the past also, they -- no, not very significantly different.
Sir, I joined late in the call. So what are the key figures now going forward, say, 1 year and 2 years down the line when our expenses are also stabilized? So what can we do forward in terms of business going forward, say, 15 months or 12 months down on the line, sir?
As I mentioned, the market seems to be very, very buoyant now. The industry, which [indiscernible] steel industry is having a very good outlook for next few quarters. So we go with that same trend. And we also hope personally that market -- the demand of refractories should be very, very good. I don't see any challenges in the refractory. In fact, on the other hand, it should be very good in the coming quarters.
Okay. Sir, one small point on the raw material and our utilization level. On the current market condition, how are our utilization levels had shaped up for the first half? And how should the utilization levels play out for H2? And the impact of increasing the raw material prices have, everything being passed on since we are working on a long-term contract basis. So how has this increase in raw material prices impacted the margins?
The raw material price had impacted the margin in this quarter 2, definitely. There has been some pass on. Some are in the process. So it is not that one-to-one, we can pass it on in the month, in which the price increase happened. So it's in the ordering cycle, the next time only adjustments happen. So this will -- this mismatch of order, the raw material price increase and the sales price increase will be there for the next 2, 3 quarters. I hope in next 2, 3 quarters, we'll be able to understand how much the market is willing to get. As I mentioned in my -- one of my previous questions that customers are willing to -- they are accepting that there has been a steep price increase. And they are willing to acknowledge that and give us some price increases. But it will take time. May not happen today, may not happen tomorrow, but it will happen.
So these quarter margins are on a sustainable basis, the impact of the higher raw material has flowed completely? Or we are -- due to the inventory, there will be a...
You have not understood my answer. I said it will happen in next 2, 3 quarters, sir. It is not that it will it will increase that the -- your month in which the raw material cost increases, increase my sales price. It is not possible for refractory industry.
Right, sir. Sir, what I was asking is the higher raw material impact. Is the visibility that the...
No, that is also continuing. That is also continuing. The prices are going up, maybe the raw material price, maybe in the current quarter, maybe in some -- so it's current quarter is already 1.5 months thus far. In 1.5 -- last 1.5 month, in October month, there has been some increases. So it is not that the raw material will remain flat. This will also change slightly. I only mentioned the last 10, 15 days, the raw material prices has been flattish.
Right. And on the utilization level, sir, in [ gross ]?
We are at 70%, somewhere around 70% levels on an average, all products put together.
And this is the traditional way, I mean, this is where we are that -- in this – I mean, even in during this -- the strong steel cycle, this is what the level which is optimum for us or we can scale up higher? On what factors can...
We are -- we have undertaken a lot of CapEx plans, so there are debottlenecking increase in the capacities. So that is a continuous process. If required, we will increase the capacity, no issues at all.
No, sir. My question was, when we have a nameplate capacity, and we are at 70%. So this is the nature of the industry that at peak, we can run at 70%, 75%? Or we can reach that 90%, 95% mark also? And what factors would you...
No, no. No one runs at 90%, 95%. It will operate at the...
This is the peak end. This debottlenecking with...
Generally, we'll hover around that.
Didn't get you last, sir, last point?
This will be around this levels only because we are also increasing capacities.
Correct, sir. The base will increase.
Yes.
[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of [ Hitesh ] from AKSA Capital Advisors.
Yes. Sir, this is a follow-up to your response with regard to how you want to use the cash. At least you also mentioned about acquisitions. There may not be anything on the table now, but even if you want to look at acquisitions, what would be your consideration with regard to the geography that you want to look at? Or...
We have not thought. It could be India. It could be overseas also. That we have had in the past as we have acquired in U.K., U.S., Germany also. So that's subject to what is available and whether it fits to our scheme of things.
Because overseas, whatever acquisitions we have done, they have not scaled up much from the point we had acquired, right? So I mean, just by looking at the numbers, it appears that your overseas acquisitions haven't helped you much with regards on the numbers at least. So you're still open to looking at overseas acquisitions, is it?
Yes. Yes. Yes. So they have -- your observation may not be fully correct that they have not helped. They have repaid their own loans, whatever they had taken for acquiring those companies. We have almost like INR 140 crore, INR 150 crore cash available in those companies, overseas companies. So those companies have done pretty well in the last few years since we acquired them. So it may not be a very, very right observation that they have not helped us. They have spent -- Hofmann, Germany has spent some money. EI Ceramics has spent some money. Monocon in U.K. has spent some money on expanding their capacities or debottlenecking their capacities.
Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question for today. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Sahil Sanghvi for closing comments. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Yes. Thank you, Sasan. Just wanted to thank Kamal sir for patiently answering all the questions. On behalf of Monarch Networth, we would also like to thank all the participants. Kamal sir, would you like to give any closing comments?
No, I think it was a good question-answer session. I hope I had been able to answer most of your queries. And if there is anything, you can contact SG, who can either answer by themselves or maybe touch base with me to answer those queries. And I wish all of you to remain safe and healthy. Thank you very much.
Thank you, sir.
Ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of Monarch Networth Capital Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.