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IFB Industries Ltd
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Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to the IFB Industries Limited Q1 FY '19 Earnings Conference Call hosted by Nirmal Bang Equities Pvt. Ltd. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Chirag Muchhala from Nirmal Bang Equities Pvt. Ltd. Thank you and over to you, sir.
Yes. Thanks. On behalf of Nirmal Bang Equities, we welcome you all to the Q1 FY '19 Results Conference Call of IFB Industries. The management is represented by Mr. Prabir Chatterjee, Director and CFO; Mr. Rajshankar Ray, CEO of Home Appliance division, and Mr. Arup Das, Head Marketing, Engineering division. I now hand over the call to the management for their opening remarks, post which we can take questions. Over to you, sir.
Thank you, Chirag. Good afternoon, everybody. Welcome to IFB Industries con call pertaining to the result of first quarter FY '19. With me today are my colleague Mr. Rajshankar Ray, CEO, Appliance division; and Mr. Arup Das, Head of Marketing, Engineering division. Now speaking on the results, on a comparable basis, company has reported a total income of INR 595.4 crore, with a growth of 20.2% over the corresponding period of the same quarter previous year. EBITDA margin stood at 5.8%, compared to 4.6% during the first quarter last year. And in absolute term, EBITDA was INR 34.37 against INR 24.34 of the same quarter last year. Appliance division revenue had a growth of 19.3%, and Engineering Division grew by 26.3%. But both the figures are on a basic comparable basis. EBITDA...
We seem to have lost the line for management. Participants, please stay connected while we reconnect. [Technical Difficulty]
Participants, thank you for patiently holding the line. We have the line for Mr. Chatterjee connected. Over to you, sir.
Could we have the margin figure, please? Hello.
Yes. So you were at EBITDA levels.
Hello.
Yes. Continue Mr. Chatterjee, you're audible till the EBITDA margin.
Appliance division, revenue was INR 488.23 crores, which grew by 19.3% and Engineering Division was INR 104.06 crores, which grew by 26.3%. EBITDA stood at 22.69 at 4.6% against 3.5% last year. Engineering Division has done substantially better at 16.92% or at 16.3 percentage against 12.8 percentage last year. And EBITDA in value terms was INR 7.9 crores. With this, I will hand over to Chirag for question-and-answer session.
[Operator Instructions] We have the first question from the line of Ankit Kedia from Centrum Broking.
So just wanted your views on the increasing competitive intensity in the washing machine and the refrigerator space. We have seen Bosch & Siemens launch their top load a couple of quarters back. Whirlpool is getting aggressive by launching in the mass premium, premium range and now Voltas is also expected to launch their washing machine. While you have always alluded that the competition was there historically, but this time, probably next 2 years, we could see hypercompetition. So what are your views on increasing the competitive intensity?
Yes, this is Rajshankar here. So Whirlpool and Bosch both have been there for quite some time, so I don't see any increased competitive intensity per se. The top loaders that Bosch has launched, the market itself is very large and expanding, so I don't think it will increase the intensity. There might be a little bit alignment here and there, but Videocon, for example, is completely absent from the market now. So some spaces opening up there in any case. As far as the introduction of products from Voltas and Beko, we will have to wait to see what they launch, at what price points they launch, et cetera. We are also expecting players like Midea to also introduce products. Very recently, they have introduced products at a very low price point on e-commerce, around 3 months back, but that did not have much of an impact. So I don't foresee any major changes in the short term. We have to look and see, basically.
Sure. The second question is on our own top loaders. In the quarter 4 presentation, we have written we were expecting the 25,000 or 30,000 volume run rate from Q1, Q2, and in the current presentation, we have written that run rate will come from quarter 3. So what has changed in the top loaders strategy? The 6-kg launch is getting delayed. So from the management strategy standpoint, where do we stand on the top loaders?
Yes, what we wrote in the previous quarter remains. Internally, we will cross 30,000 in Q2 itself, based on whatever we have seen in the quarter 1 end. The 6-kg top loader, we had initially planned for Q3. We have moved it to Q4 because Q3 pressures on volume are very high. So we do not want the new model creating any disruption in terms of internal cannibalization, et cetera in the middle of the season. So we thought that it is better to introduce the product as soon as the quarter 3 is over, which will allow us to really expand the network using that model.
Sure. And sir, my last question is regarding microwaves and ACs. Some microwaves have posted a flat growth in the quarter, but that is on the back of a very strong growth last year. So can we see a double-digit growth in microwaves? While in the AC category continues to disappoint us year after year, it's been nearly 3, 4 years of launch and we have not been able to post even unit 1 lakh unit now and probably lagging in market share as well. While I gauge from the market that we have stitched deals with Reliance Retail and others in the AC category recently. So where is the positioning of these 2 categories now for us?
Yes, on microwaves, we will have double-digit growths. The issue in the first quarter was that we have taken some price increases in the microwaves. So to some extent, the volumes were affected by that. But they have now stabilized and we are confident of Q2 and Q3 being good for microwaves. As far as ACs are concerned, yes, I agree with you. Even in Q1 internally, we had wanted to do at least 10,000, 15,000 more ACs than what we have done. The issues that we have had are related to supplies and that has primarily been because of sourcing. Out of China, we have had issues with sourcing because of local domestic demand there has grown a lot, and what we need to do is to localize this product, which is a project that we have started. So on ACs for now, we will have to fix the sourcing end of the story to ensure that we get volumes that we have planned for this year. Microwaves, I feel the prices have stabilized in the market now. So in Q2, Q3, we should be on target with whatever we expect.
And sir, we have taken price cuts post the GST cut in microwave as well.
Yes. For all the products, we have passed on the full benefit of the GST immediately.
Sure. Sir, my last question is for strategy, sir. Sir, we have seen other expenses grow sequentially very fast. Probably, that could be due to the counter sales where we had spoken in the last quarter. While the gross margin continues to expand, do you think these gross margins are sustainable?
Let me tell you, see, our other expenses, to a large extent, it is variable. 70%, 74% is variable. Balance is fixed in nature. So when the volume has gone up by 24%, 25%, mostly the impact of that, the CSR, our plan was to recruit much more. We have not recruited that much, but the effect that you are saying that in all other expenses were absolutely under control. This is mainly because of the freight, franchisee and other expenses, which is absolutely variable and in line with the volume.
And sir, do you think the gross margin expansion is -- going forward, we can continue to have it, given the way the rupee has depreciated and...?
And to that, see, for example, compared to last 2 quarters, the gross margin was down by around 2.6% to 2.7%. Out of that 1% is because of the ForEx and another 1.5% to 1.6% is because of the commodity price. Now to counter that, we have made a price increase in end June, July, effect of which has not come to us yet. So once we get the full effect of that, a large part of it would be utilized.
[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Ashish Kacholia from Lucky Investments.
My question is basically regarding to our strategy on IFB Points. In a world where consumers want to compare many products in a convenient location and the rising popularity of organized retailing, does it really make sense for us to keep investing in IFB Points year after year? Are you finding enough return on capital employed that we are kind of putting into the IFB Points business?
Yes. So this is Rajshankar here. Good question. We think that it makes lot of business sense to focus on the IFB Points and the primary reason is as follows: That, at the end of the day, all the multi-brand outlets that you have will never completely display the product range that the company wants to showcase to customers. So if you look at IFB, there are many products that we need to grow far in excess of industry growth. Air conditioner is an example. Kitchen appliances is an example. We have a lot of cooking products that we want to showcase. So for us, the IFB Points are a place where to the customers we are able to showcase the complete range. They are places where we have a lot of engagement with customers through cooking classes that we do every month. It is also a place where we showcase to our customers the consumable sides of the business that we have, which is the IFB essential down to -- which are all the liquid detergents, stain removers and all those sort of products. So yes, we think that it is important that we continue to focus on growing the IFB Points. On your question on return on capital, currently, the IFB Points account for 14%, 15% of the company's sales, but we think that we can grow it to 20%-plus over time. And the key challenge for the company is to work on the marketing side of the story to get more people to visit the IFB Points so that we are able to have all the IFB Points make money. Currently, 1/3 of them don't make enough money and that is a problem that we need to fix. We had discussed this at length in the previous telecon as well. Does that answer your question, please?
Yes. I mean, to -- and what is the return on capital of the IFB Points, which are profitable? In that, what is the return on capital employed if you transfer the products to the IFB Point at arm's length?
So if you take a typical franchisee who runs an IFB Point and your question is what is the return on capital if the franchisee is healthy. So typically, a franchisee would invest, let's say, about INR 2.5 lakh to INR 3 lakh in setting up the store in terms of civil work, lighting, et cetera, and we could add another INR 6 lakhs to INR 7 lakhs of stocks, so that's about INR 10-odd lakhs. A good franchisee makes anywhere between INR 50,000 to INR 1 lakh a month. So if you calculate the return on capital is actually quite [ hot ], about 1.5 to 2 years at the max.
And this is after all his rental cost, is what he makes in return?
Yes, yes. I'm factoring in his rental. Typical rentals that we take for the size that we have, which is 400, 500 square feet, would vary between INR 30,000 to INR 70,000, basically per month.
And how many of these IFB Points are not making money currently?
We have about 150, 160-odd, which still don't make enough money basically.
And are these located in more expensive locations or in towns or nothing like that?
Yes, a bulk of them are in the metros where the rentals are generally higher, but there are also IFB Points in up-country locations, which have just opened, let's say, 6 months, 8 months back, where the location has still not been established as far as the customers are concerned. So the footfalls are low and therefore, they're also basically not making enough money or losing money.
So if these IFB Points don't make money or they lose money, so I would assume that we would have to be compensating the franchisee for the loss, right, because this would be a marketing expense on the company's part, right?
So we don't compensate loss. I mean, we don't have any agreements like that. What we do is that we intensify efforts for marketing in terms of doing activities to draw customers into the stores. If you see it today that any IFB Points that typically crosses 1.5 to 2 years, generally establishes itself. It's that initial year, 1.5 years where we try to do as much marketing as possible to get people into the store.
[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Chirag Muchhala from Nirmal Bang.
Sir, firstly, can you provide the volume numbers for the 4 main categories in Q1 and the Y-o-Y figures?
Chirag, the volume figure, I will provide you separately, please. Okay.
Okay. Okay. And sir, on the -- I mean, the -- any update on the -- I mean, localization of the import content that you were doing in the front load washing machine, I mean, you were originally planning it to completed by Q2, and so are we on course?
Yes, we are fully on course. So for the set of models that we introduced in Q4, the localization is 100% done for the controllers. And for the second set of models, which will be introduced in Q3 -- Q2 and Q3, we are also on track.
Okay. So after Q2 basically, the import content in front load will be down to something like 13%, 14%?
That's right. That's right.
Okay. And sir, any further plans on the -- I mean, the launch of refrigerator? And where are we in terms of, let's say, test marketing, et cetera?
So the field trials are going along the expected lines as on date. Like we had shared earlier that in terms of all the internal evaluations being over, we expect that to be over by Q2. So at the end of this quarter, we will be in a position to share the plan.
Okay. And sir, finally, what is the CapEx plans for the next 2 or 3 years? And any plans to increase the capacity of top load, front load washing machine and microwaves?
Yes, Mr. Chatterjee, you can answer this, please.
I will tell you. This year, our plan is around INR 75 crores -- INR 70 crores to INR 75 crores. Out of that, Appliance is around INR 45 crores and INR 30 crores is from the Engineering division. This is for the year, but we normally do not do for 2, 3 years at a stage. We do 1 year at a go.
And sir, for the main products like front load, top load, microwave, et cetera, what is the current rate of utilization and any plans to expand capacity there?
Yes. So Rajshankar here. The capacity that we have created for front loaders now will be fully utilized this year, and it can be expanded further. And the top loader capacity also will be fully utilized this year. I'm talking about the single-shift business production, which if it is required we can also extend the second shifts.
The next question is from Mitul Mehta from Lucky Investment.
This is Mitul Mehta. Sir, my question to you is one is, if you can talk a little bit more about the Ramsons acquisition, how big because this particular asset will fit our line of business in the industrial equipment side. And we don't see too many players in this business. So how do you see this business scaling up over next 2 to 3 years? And what are the margins in this business? Second, sir, directionally if you could just give us some sense of indication as to when do we start hitting inflection point as far as our sales number goals in the home appliances business to hit double-digit margin? Because we've seen companies like Whirlpool and all. Obviously, they are 2x in terms of size compared to us. They seem to be running a far efficient ship in terms of margins. Their margins are almost closer to 11.5%, 12% and we are still at about 6.5%, 7%. So can you just elaborate on this?
Okay. So I'll answer the first question, which is related to Ramsons. IFB already has an industrial business, which is in 2 parts. One is laundry and the other is dishwashing. The margin structure of this business, obviously, is much higher in terms of the margin structure that the company enjoys in the sales. Ramsons is currently a player, which has a complete spectrum of products for the industrial laundry business. So from equipment required for washing to equipment required for steam ironing, to drying, from big projects to the small washers, for dhobis who are wanting to automate. So they have the complete spectrum. We think that there is great synergy with our existing business with the acquisition of the laundry business of Ramsons. And going forward, in terms of the infrastructure growth in hotels, the automation of washing for institutions like the railways, the defense forces and also for the increasing number of residential launderers that are opening up across India, we think that there is a very large scope. Obviously, this is very accretive to margins because in this vertical the margin structures are in the early 20s or even in the mid-20s in terms of percentage EBITDA margins. So that is the plan as far as Ramsons is concerned. I can answer any additional questions if you want on this. As far as the sales numbers for sustainable margins is concerned and your point about Whirlpool, the point is correct. We do need sustainable double-digit margins. And as we have shared in the previous telecons, in terms of basic sales levels, we need about INR 250 crores a month of sales for us to be able to consistently earn double-digit margins and the actions that we are taking on that are largely on 2 heads. The one is the network increase and network penetration-related actions, which we have discussed about in the previous quarters. We are very confident that we will complete those actions in this year. And the second is in terms of the manning that we have across the large counters, where our sales is dependent very heavily on the people that you meet at the store level and generally where we have our manning complete, so we tend to do very well in stores. So that is the second point for this year is to finish the induction of people at the store level who can push the sales agenda. Having done these 2, we are fairly confident that we will be able to reach the -- those revenue numbers for double-digit margins in this fiscal. Does that answer your question, please?
Yes. You said in this fiscal, which means we should be hitting double-digit margins this year, itself?
That is the plan. We wouldn't want to give a specific forecast around this, but our actions are for completion in this fiscal year.
Next question from Ankit Kedia from Centrum Broking.
So just wanted to know, our service franchisees, we have steadily increasing it quarter-after-quarter. So for the new player to come in, are these service franchisees specific to us or they do for multiple brands? And when competition comes in, new player comes in, do they set up their own service franchisees PAN India? How do that happen, because service is the backbone of -- at the front-end sales that happen? So how is this structure placed?
So 90%-plus are dedicated to IFB. And we believe that this is a very big strength that we have in terms of the reach into the deep interiors and also in terms of reach to every nook and corner. New players tend to do 2 things. They tend to share franchisees. In our experience, sharing of franchisees have generally not been very successful as far as our industry is concerned. And the new players also tend to set up their own franchisees. But it's a long process, and it is definitely a strength that IFB has.
Sure. Sir, when a customer buys it typically every city, would you have a service franchisee? Because as the customer will need to travel a lot or another person will need to travel a lot for service repair. So how does that help? And across products, do we have only one service franchisee or for multiple products, we'll have multiple service franchisees?
Across products, we have common franchisees. In some locations, for air conditioners, we had committed a separate service franchisee network. Some of the air conditioning franchisees are also shared with the other brands. What we are essentially doing is that we track PIN codes where we sell and we are mapping franchisees to those PIN codes. So currently, we are servicing about 15,000, 16,000 PIN codes over a 1-year period, for example. So those 15,000, 16,000 PIN codes are mapped to service franchisees. 85%, 90% of the cases, the franchisee is very close to consumers. In about 10%, 15% of the cases, the franchisee would have to depute a technician to travel some distance to reach the consumer. But we are tracking distance to travel as well as PIN codes where we are selling and where we need to service.
Sure. My next question is on the Engineering division. Now for the fourth consecutive quarter, we have seen a double-digit margin and a strong revenue growth. What is driving this revenue growth for last 4 quarters in the Engineering division? And is this growth sustainable, because auto industry per se, we're not seeing such a good growth where we are seeing. So are we gaining market share that we are growing 20%-plus in this division? Or are there any new products, components, which we have added to our portfolio, which is driving this growth in margins?
Arup, will you answer, please?
Mr. Chatterjee, I think he is disconnected. You'll have to answer this, please.
Yes. The -- mainly because our share is not that high. So we are gaining shares whenever we are not present, number one. Then the margin going up like I last time explained that there are some of the operations which we were outsourced earlier, we have brought it inside. As a result, we are doing well, number one. Also, last year, to some extent, it was affected because of the demonetization effect and that the emission norm on the cars, where the manufacturing activities of the cars were suspended for some time. So there is some -- base effect is also there. But generally, in every month or quarter, they are growing by 25% to 30%. But if you consider our volume, that is not that high and we have plenty of scope to increase.
Sir, so we have had new client wins for last 2 or 3 quarters, which is helping us grow revenues. And do you think we have sufficient capacities because the plant is pretty old and hence...
So that is what if you notice that see last 3, 4, 5 quarters -- 5 years, every year, we are spending money. For example, I said, this year, we have INR 30 crores. Last year, we spent around INR 19 crores in Engineering division. The year before was around INR 28 crores, INR 30 crores. As a result of that, like I explained earlier in Bangalore, for example, there was some the -- some of the operations were through JobWorld, which we have brought it in, and we're doing it, as a result, the margin has gone up substantially.
Sure. And sir, my last question is the land in the Bangalore factory, which the government has taken. So the INR 19 crores of compensation would come in quarter 2 to us? How does that...
It's expected to be in this quarter.
In quarter 2, we'll get the INR 19 crores of revenue from the...
Yes, it is expected.
[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Arpit Agrawal from Systematix Shares.
So I have 2 questions. One, I wanted to understand the breakup of sales in terms of how is the sales between, say, the Tier 1 cities and the Tier 2, Tier 3 cities, so what is the divide? If you can give some color? And second sir, on the AC. So as you're getting into a much larger category and with lot more competition, how do you -- what is your, say, 3- to 5-year target in terms of getting the market shares and that -- once your supply chain stabilizes? And how do you plan to go about it in terms of distribution?
Okay. So in terms of the split between Tier 1 and Tier 2, Tier 3, currently about 50% to 55% is Tier 1 and the remaining is Tier 2 and Tier 3. Your second question was in terms of ACs, what sort of plans do we have. So if you look at volume plans, the industry already is sitting at about 5 million, and there are various data points that predict to a very healthy growth around the whole air conditioning market volumes. So the localization project that we will do needs to address that in terms of having capacity over the next few years to reach volumes of anywhere between 300,000 to 500,000. We need to do a lot of work on the network, which we have also shared in the previous quarters that the nature of the air conditioning market and its basic need for 2 big network developments. One is the distribution-led networks and the order is the network of dealers who do both sales and service. These are 2 areas where currently, we are relatively weak. On distribution, we have done a lot of number additions over the last 2, 3 quarters, but we still need to get more value out of the distribution network. Currently, we have not been able to get enough value. That is a big agenda for this year. And for air conditioners, specifically also this network of dealers who do both sales and service, currently our presence is minimal. And once we fix the product side of the story and the supply side, we also need, towards the end of this year, when the next season starts, to be able to have in place before that sales and service dealers who account for a significant percentage of the industry. We have some markets where currently we have done a fairly good job on this, for example, markets like Gujarat, et cetera, where we have a fairly high number of sales and service dealers, but this is a success that we need to replicate across many more states. All India business currently today, we are very weak on this segment.
And sir, on this, as you said that your Tier 1 is 55%. Now as you're getting into -- so earlier, I would assume that front loading was more a Tier 1 phenomenon, but as you're now getting into top loading, which is a much larger market opportunity, what are we doing to expand our distribution on that side?
So we, like I said, we added a lot of dealers through distribution-led networks over the previous quarters and these networks will grow with top loaders, air conditioners and microwaves. So these are the 3 main products through which these networks will grow, but they will also grow through -- they will growth through front loaders as well because we have some models, which are very suitable for Category 2, Category 3 terms. So currently, the work that we are doing on the distribution network is to get our manning right in terms of having people over all distribution networks, subdealers, point one. And point two is to complete the training inputs to all the dealers that we have recently added, and training them on how to sell IFB, why our products are superior and getting the messaging right, basically.
But do we have to share extra margins a bit initially?
With the distribution network dealers?
Yes.
No, not really. I mean, the distribution-led networks sits on the higher side of the kind of margins that you would share with some of the larger retailers. But other than that, there is no real extra expense. In some markets, it is also a little cheaper as compared to the larger dealers' margins structures.
And the last one from my side. In your note, you've written that about 14% of the sales come from online. So is it all through our own website or is it through the various channels, the various websites?
It's mostly through the partner websites. We have a little bit of sales from our website. But the bulk of that figure is coming from the partner websites.
Okay. Like the Amazon and Flipkart.
Yes. Amazon, Flipkart and the others.
How has that grown over last 3 years, sir? Or was it maybe top 3 years before?
They're all doing -- I mean, are you talking about their growth or IFB's growth on their platform?
Share of online in terms of...
So their growth is very, very high. So if you see categories like televisions, refrigerators, air conditioners, they are almost doubling year-on-year.
And we are almost there on all the partner websites, all the leading players, right?
Yes, yes. We are present on all the websites. So the major ones currently are Amazon, Flipkart, TATA CliQ, ATM. So we're there on all the websites.
[Operator Instructions] The next question is from Harshit Kapadia from Elara Capital.
Sir, you had mentioned that you require a revenue of around INR 250 crore a month to reach a double-digit margin. Just wanted to get more insight into, let's say, around the reason for this would be because of your network expansion plan. So what would be the size of retailer and distribution network of a consumer durable in Western India, and where would be your reach within this network, let's say, in urban as well as rural, if you can highlight? And where the scope is more from your side, sir?
So the total size of the network is roughly around 28,000 to 30,000 retailers -- retail counters. IFB was traditionally operating with about 4,500-odd 1,000 retailers. We have added over the last 2, 3 quarters, around 10,000 more retailers. So the largest growth opportunity for IFB is to get proper extraction from these 10,000-odd retailers that have been put in place. If you look at the overall industry distribution of the 28,000, 30,000 retailers, then if you categorize them between Tier 1 and Tier 2, Tier 3 markets, I think about 50% of them would be sitting in Tier 1 and the remaining 50% in Tier 2 and Tier 3. So far, I have...
Okay. And --Yes.
Sorry, I interrupted you.
Yes, yes. No sir, please, go ahead. I interrupted you.
Yes, so the largest opponent -- opportunity for us is to be able to really get proper extraction from the network that we've added recently and we have still to get that.
Okay. And which you believe that will be done maybe next -- over a next 1 year at least?
Yes, correct.
That was the last question in queue. As there are no further questions, I'd like to hand the conference back Mr. Chirag Muchhala for closing comments.
Yes, thanks. I would like to thank the management for giving us the opportunity to host the call and to all the participants for your presence. Sir, would you like to make any closing comments?
No, thank you, Chirag. Thank you very much.
Yes. Thanks, Raymond. We can close the call now.
Sure. Thank you very much. On behalf of Nirmal Bang Equities, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, ladies and gentlemen. You may now disconnect your lines.