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Genus Power Infrastructures Ltd
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Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to Genus Power Infrastructures Limited Q4 FY '24 Earnings Conference Call. This conference call may contain forward-looking statements about the company, which are based on the beliefs, opinions and expectations of the company as on date of this call. These statements are not the guarantees of future performance and involve risks and uncertainties that are difficult to predict. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded.
I now hand the conference over to Mr. Jitendra Agarwal, Joint Managing Director of Genus Power Infrastructures Limited. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. A very warm welcome. Today, Mr. Kailash Agarwal is unable to join us due some medical excellency. So he's been on the leave. With me in the call is our SGA, our Investor Relations adviser. The results and investor presentation are already uploaded on the stock exchange and company website. I hope everybody has a chance to look at it. Since July 2023, our company has consistently achieved remarkable success securing FCDs of [indiscernible]. Orders exceeding will be INR 16,000 crores. That taxes are for the installation of more than INR 1.82 crore in smart-meters, in the trust and confidence demonstrated by our clients is a strong testament to our dependability of our cutting-edge smart metering solutions. Our total order book, including all SPVs and GIC platform helps us paused INR 21,000 crores on date, indicating a promising outcome for future revenue growth. It is important to understand that the start of these orders typically requires a minimum of 6 to 9 months from the time the order is received.
This is due to extensive formalities that must be completed before starting these projects. Without we expect a revenue side starting from financial year '25 driven by the execution of our good order book. Operating profit margins are also expected to improve as operating leverage kicks in along with the realization of economical scale till continued cost management efforts. All these orders are dominant execution cycle of 24 to 27 months, it provides a good visibility in the coming years?
Coming to quarterly results, revenue stood at INR 420.1 crores, up by 108% as against quarter 4 financial year '23 revenue of INR 202.3 crores. Robust order execution and ongoing expansion of the smart metering business is driving the group. EBITDA stood at INR 65.4 crores, up by 104% as against quarter 4 financial year '23. We have noticed the significant rise in employee costs and other expenses due to our ongoing efforts to expand our workforce and enhance our systems. This is in anticipation of meeting the substantial order book we have acquired. PAT stands at INR 31.4 crores for Q4 financial year '24 , an increase of 151% as compared to INR 12.5 crores in Q4 financial year '23. However, the increased profitability in Q4 was impacted as a result of a substantial rise in financing expenses.
This was a direct consequence of the company's requirement to offer supplementary bank guarantees in order to ensure the influx of orders. According to our evaluation, we expect a significant surge in our revenue from financial year '25 onwards. This will be driven by a strong performance of our order book in a sticky floor of new orders. We expect to record total revenue of about INR 2,500 crores in financial year '25. With the operating leverage taking in, we also expect our operating margin to significantly improve. We maintained a very positive outlook regarding the substantial enhancement of our business operation in this financial year. We can now open the line for Q&A.
[Operator Instructions] Our first question is from the line of Mohit Kumar from ICICI Securities.
Yes. Good evening Sir, congratulations on a very good set of numbers. So my first question is, what is the status of go-to-live -- go-to-live status of the existing order book. And can you help us with revenue the margin guidance for FY '25?
Status of go-to-live is different from all the different projects, [indiscernible] at a different stage. So it is very difficult for me to specifically tell you as a whole, where are we, because we are very much within the time line of the project. As I said earlier, most of the project takes minimum to 6 to 9 months to come on to the ground. In almost every project that we have secured currently. They're already on the ground. And -- most of the projects, the market also started. So every project is in a different stage currently. And as I told earlier also that guideline for this financial year, but we have given is INR 2,500 crores.
And for the, margin guidance, sir?
15% to 16% EBITDA .
Understood, sir. The second question is, can you please help us with the opportunity size upcoming where the tenders are yet to be opened. And the related question is, will GIC help to bid for more than INR 3 billion work order of contract value?
So there is no restriction from GIC, that we cannot bid more than this value. So that was the minimum criteria we built out between us, but that is not the limit. The projects which are upcoming, although there are a lot of tenders which retain the different states different status. Few are already open where we are L1 through we have quoted this title will be known in 3 months soon will be quoted in the next couple of months. So even in this financial year, we expect a good incoming of order flow.
Is it possible to quantify the L1 status, sir,?
Currently, we have L1 in project -- exact number, will be around INR 11,000 crores.
Understood, sir. The last question is, what are the execution challenges? And I assume that given that you're ramping up. We do need to hire people, right, to build those capabilities to execute this large order book. Can you just elaborate on it, what we are doing to ensure that we are on time and we [indiscernible] within the cost?
The good thing is we are doing what we understand it very well. So this is a metering business, which we invested. And this is not the first time yes, the scale has been much larger than what we have done it in the past. But the good part is we understand what we are doing. And we are building, of course, as I said earlier, also, there's a lot of cost that has increased in terms of manpower, in terms of building the capability in the field in-house headquarters. So a lot of investment has been in the last 12 to 24 months, which is visible in our salary expenses also.
So currently, as said, we are not seeing any unrealistic challenge in the field, which is a very good sign. Almost 11 million, 12 million smart meters are installed in the country. In country, in general, the acceptance by the public by the utilities is very, very good. Rather what we initially thought there will be some challenges, but the [indiscernible] we are working in Bihar. These are the 2 states where we are working very extensively. If you see the economic status of these 2 states, we are one of them in the lower side, still the acceptance has been very, very good. This is a very clear indication acceptance of the smart meter is good in general unrealistic challenges are not visible in the field. So I'm expecting a very good run rate picking up from this financial year.
The next question is from the line of Darshil Pandya from Fintrust Capital.
Congratulations on this great set of numbers and we really would like to congratulate the management for depriving on the commitments. Sir, #1 question would be on the tax guidance. You guided last year -- last quarter about 25% is the new tax regime. But since even this quarter, we have seen more than 25% of the rate. So what is the tax guidance? And what is happening in this, if you can just quantify?
So please Kailash Agarwal is not on the call. And I'm generally not very quick for you on this. We'll make a lot of discussion and make sure FDA will come back to you with that.
Okay. No worries on that. And sir, would it be a great question, if I could ask you, what is the rationally behind [ Inconos ] many companies -- we have been seeing Genus Power incorporating a lot of subsidiaries. What is the rationale behind it?
So this is how the bidding is to be done. If you see the SBD, this is all the bidding needs to be done, that you have to create every -- it has to be a separate SP. That is the only reason. And there's no other rationale nbehind it.
Okay. Just for the bidding perspective, we are repeating this.
For the bidding uptick yes. So this is all we point different companies can have only 1 SPV and they can bid in the that SPV all the projects. We have taken the route of different SPVs for different projects. That is the only reason behind it. But once you execute start executing order every SPVs has to be separate. So doing it during the bid itself to most of the cases.
And sir, what will be the debt cost for this financial year and debt position as on it?
So again, I would like this question to be answered later on ny Mr. Kailash Agarwal.
Okay. Okay. And sir, any guidance for FY '26 or FY '27?
So I'm very positive on FY, '25. FY '26 also will be definitely much better than '25, but I don't want to spell any numbers so early. But yes maybe 3, 4 months or 6 months down the line will give you a guidance on it also. It will definitely much better than what we will do this year.
The next question is from the line of Pratik Jay from Solidarity Investment Managers. .
Sir, can you tell me with the number -- what is the system-wide meters installed in India and as of today and what is the target? What is your expectation that it can get installed by the next year? That's my first question, sir.
So currently, I don't give you an exact number, but roughly what I understand from the market intelligence almost 11 million meters are installed smart meters are installed in India over the period of, I would say, 6, 7 years when the Germany started, which has picked up primarily in the last 2 years only. In this financial year, [indiscernible] believe that at least 60 million to 70 million smart meters will be installed.
Okay. Got it. And also the government has set a target of 25 installing 25 crore smart meters. What is your realistic assumption that by when it can happen?
My realistic assumption will be it will happen in next 4 to 5 years?
Got it. And sir, one more question on the smart meter side. We have been hearing that the smart meters are being currently imported from China.
Can you help me understand what percent of smart meters installed in India are imported from China? And what is the cost difference there?
Currently, not a single meter is being imported from China. As far as I understand this industry. If I have to put any percentage in the historical data, maybe 0.05%.
The next question is from the line of Aksh Vashishth from Future Generali India Life Insurance.
Congratulations on a good set of numbers. So my first question to you is, so our other expenses this quarter have gone up about about INR 30-odd crores sequentially. So I just wanted to understand what will be the trajectory going forward?
So all these expenses are during my [indiscernible] also made that no investment is happening in building up the projects. initial investments are generally very high. In terms of people, offices, other expenses. So a lot of expenses are happened initially not many projects are going to start in next -- 2 to 3 quarters. So these expenses will continue. And once we'll start getting the revenue they will get compensated.
Can we assume that the current run rate of about INR 75 crores, INR 80-odd crores, which we have of other expenses which you have done this quarter, is going to roughly remain in the same range. It's not going to increase incrementally going forward from here?
I would say, yes to a very large extent. Yes.
Okay. And my second question is that, so we have done an EBITDA margin of around [ 13-odd ] percent this quarter. But if I see the segmental reporting, the EBIT margin in the metering business is roughly around 16-odd percent. So just wanted to understand what has been a drag on the consol number? So I'm not able to figure out the math behind it.
You as you see there's a lot of investment happening on the ground for the project. Currently there is a metering business. And then there are projects being handled simultaneously. So a lot of these things will become common once you will see projects happening continuously in future.
Okay. Okay. And my last question is, which major states, if you can help us guide which major states are left, which are expected to place order in the near term?
I think the main state still not went into the smart meters are Tamiladu, [ conductor ], Rajasthan, Haryana, Punjab these are the major states are still not -- some have already come out with the tenders or some have already on the process of -- but they have not started the journey. So these are the leader states, which has not started the journey.
The next question is from the line of Chandresh Malpani from Neesha Investment Advisors.
Congratulations on this good set of execution. Sir, my first question pertains to the execution on ground. What I understand is that we -- the net sales to platform the majority of it's meters. So trying to understand what is the execution on ground because of our receivables? Has that March ending is like close to [ INR 580 crores ] which is more than this quarter's sales. So trying to understand if this -- if the platform is able to execute and receive receivables on their side. So how is it happening on ground?
So the receivable consists of the meters that we supply to the electricity booths, which we have been doing in the past, and platform has to do nothing. All the EPC contract on back-to-back basis are given back to the Genus Power. So there is no execution which has to happen, which has to be done by the platform. Everything has to be done by Genus Power. So execution on ground level, as I said earlier also, it takes its own time and so many systems we build integration with the current billing system integration with the [indiscernible] which is there on the ground. So the lower basis happens for 6 to 9 months. So meters are being signed, they are installed, then the FIT happens when SAP happens all this takes a fair amount of time. So you will see when you are seeing the outstanding. One is the historical outstanding, which is for the meter being supplied to different state utilities which has been historical path. And some meters which are being installed in the field, but not build yet because of the system integration. As you can see an outstanding is almost a similar to the way it used to be in the earlier years.
But sir, out of this total outstanding, how much would the utility base and like what we understand is that Genus has transacted in this way that it will only be a sole supplier of meter. So whenever the meters are being supplied, it will book the revenue to the HPV and SPV will a Genus in say, 45 to 60 days. So is my understanding right, sir?
It is absolutely right. But if Gsnus will supply the meter, Genus will install the meter once the FAT is done, then platform will pay back to Genus. For Genus is like a CapEx [ boost ].
Okay. So .
[indiscernible] Supplied the meter in platform will pay us. We have to install them also. We have to system integrate also once the operation go live happen, platform pays the money to Genus.
Okay. Okay. Got it, sir. And sir, secondly, on this opportunity side trying to understand like government has tendered out some 25 [ cover ] meters. But recently, we also see that there is a concept of net meter -- net metering getting traction. So this will open up another opportunity? Or how should we see this -- the opportunity size basically for our industry?
Every smart meter is capable of doing the et metering. But the only thing is because net metering is started where these both are not clocked. So initially, what I believe is next 2 years, there will be some duplication will happen that a lot of places smart meters will be installed afterward, but net meters will be sold this year or next year itself. So some duplication will happen.
Okay. Okay. And.
We cannot do the job of a smart meter, but a smart meter can do the net meter.
Okay. Got it. And sir, lastly, again, on the execution [indiscernible] that some states like Gujrat taking protest from the customers complaining about the higher billings and smart meter are installed. So -- and they also taken those step back and say that, firstly, it will be deployed in the government offices and then the execution and the customer level will start.
Do you see any challenges on execution in your view on this, Sir?
So this is absolutely a normal situation. I'm not finding it crazily absorbing. If you go back to the history, electronic meters were installed in the initial date of 2002, 2003. There were some agitation in some pockets of the country. you are seeing agitation in the pocket of Gujarat, there not as even 20,000, 25,000 meters are installed. But we have not seen any agitation in Afar more than 2 million meters are already installed. We are not seeing any agitation in Bihar. There are almost [ 4.3 million ] meters installed. We're not seeing any agitation in U.P. There almost 2.5 million meters are installed. So it is in some pockets sometimes. Somebody has created an issue. And sometimes, electricity boards also take a little linear view, hey, okay, we will do it like this so that they take care of the consumer the -- problem is mellowed down. So these are very normal I'm not finding anything obnoxious in whatever is happening in [indiscernible].
The next question is from the line of Akash from Dalal in Baja.
Sir, congrats on the good center numbers.
Thank you.
My question is, if I were to segregate my INR 21,000 crore order book as of today. So how would you split it how much would be for supply? How much would be for installation and how much would be for maintenance, just a broad breakup?
So this INR 21,000 crores is approximated the order book of the whole company. This will remove around [indiscernible] to INR 2,000 crores is our supply orders from the different customers, utilities, supply tenders what we've been from our existing business, what we used to do earlier. Around INR 19,000 crores and giving a very approximate number on my actually be.
Yes, a broad figure, sir.
In INR 19,000 crores is from the platform. The INR 19,000 crores will go to the platform and almost 75% will come back to deal this thinking includes all the SPVs [indiscernible] everything. So currently, everything is in Genus. And then it will move to the platform. Then platform will again give EPC contracts to Genus back it will be almost 75% to 80%.
So out of that INR 19,000 crores, how much will we get for supply? And how much will we get for -- so maintenance will be taken care of by the SPV itself, with the platform itself?
Maintenance will be taken care again, everything will be done by Genus. So you can take it like this. Out of this INR 19,000 crores, 80% will come to Genus. And this if you form let's make this 80% at 100%. So then 50% of that 100% would be be on supply 20% will be installation and around 50% will be O&M, operation and maintenance.. And is it broadly you can break it somewhere in [indiscernible]
This is a broad breakup. So that 50% on supply and 20% on installation. So 70% of that money, we should be able to book it as soon as we have delivered the meters, right?
We have delivered all integration and operation goal has happened. .
Correct. So that 70% out of.
[indiscernible].
Okay. 60%. Okay. So 60%, we should be able to book in the next 2 to 3 years, am I right?
[indiscernible].
Sorry?
Yes. for the order books it happens like.
Yes. So am I understand means I'm right, right? .
[Technical Difficulty] I can hear you.
Sir, I'm just trying to sum it up what ever you have ecplained to me. So out of the INR 19,000 crores, around 80% will come back to Genus. From the platform.
Around 75& [indiscernible]. 6
Yes, around 60% will be for supply and installation that that amount we should ideally be able to book in the next 2 to 3 years when we'll be installing the maximum number of meters, right?
Yes, that's right.
The next question is from the line of Ashwini Sharma from Emkay Global Financial Services.
Yes. for the opportunity and congrats for a great set of numbers. So my first question is on the opportunity on the auto platform. How is the inquiry pipeline, if you can give us some sense?
So we have a good inquiry from almost the major [indiscernible] layer, we have supply meters to [indiscernible]. So very good big[indiscernible] .
Any number you would like to put, sir?
Currently, from different AMI SPs we have an order book of more than 1,000 crores.
Okay. Okay. So way the things have started moving in the smart meters and the power space. How do you see opportunity in the smart meters in the gas space your comments, yes?
Well, we are already doing gas meter. So it is more like a conventional meter what we used to in the electricity cannot see now gas meters converting to smart, -- most of the gas meter currency are I would say personal electricity meter types only. But you will have already taken a few CD gas distribution companies have taken a decent that we want to go with the prepaid gas meters, but they are very few of them. regas meters have a good opportunity, but more like it in retinal electricity.
Is there a price difference or anything -- any technology difference in this?
So because of the costnly,mostofthe CD gas stations are missed currently with the conventional gas meters.
Okay. Sir, the second -- the other question a bit on a basis. So over the next 4, 5 years, what is our aspiration as well as concerned I understand in FY '25, you might have INR 2,500 crores of which you're guiding for and some growth in FY '26 has been. But over the next 4, 5 years, what is our aspirations to as far as revenue is concerned?
So I don't want the number on the aspiration, something is we are developing multiple lines correctly. It's not that we are only focusing on the electricity meters. This has been mostly a focus for the long run, we have done some work in the gas with business, and now we are well established to what we are already working on the bottom meters. And we will be seeing dealer not only in India international markets also in the bottom meter done a lot of investments in the last 4 to 5 years in our international marketing development. Last year also, we did exports of more than 100 this year. Also, we expect to do on -- so we have been developing our these business models also apart from the despite we which is seeing a major such currently.
I think we have to understand when more thinking smart meter -- two things that will keep driving the smart meter business also. One is new connections. It won't be significant, but some numbers will keep coming over the years in all the smart meters have a light at the end of the day. It's not that key installed a smart meter than our done for 15, 20 years. So there will be a lot of business will keep coming up the certain to Europe is the contractor we [indiscernible].
The next question is from the line of Jai Shah from OHM Portfolio Equity Research.
Sir, can you just explain the whole trade payments and working capital cycle, like, for instance, when you do -- when you bid for an order how much advance do you get? And as and when that you supply, what are the receivable days in that case? And is there a retention element? And how long does it take to build that money back?
So you asked a very loaded question because every project is different in expense. A few basic things. I can tell you, most of the project doesn't have an advanced payment. That business, what we are going to do is primarily for the smart meters through platform, that will be a CapEx business where we supply the material, we do the installation and operation go line happen, they get paid within 45 days. And so typically, if you see our business, it's always been a working capital intensive business. Next 6 to 12 months, I continue to see that because projects will come on the ground, it will open and then money will start soon. But next year onwards, I definitely see the working capital intensity getting that up for Genus. And otherwise, it is a working capital in the business and remain like that.
So the average working capital in terms of receivables and inventory would still be around 4 to 5 months?
It is definitely 5 to 6 months our current balance sheet, it will be quite visible. But I see this improving from this financial year in the later part of the financial year because the business model is changing in a big way.
Right. And is there any retention element?
No, there's improved retention element. Every project has a performance bank guarantee.
Okay. And the bank guarantee is there for how many years
Is that in the contract at we're finding 10 years contract versus there for 10 years. .
Okay. So how much of nonbank-funded limit that you need to do this kind of business turnover of INR 2,500 crores?
Aagin exact number, I can't...
Roughly?
Roughly, generally, the performance bank grants around 3% to 5%. So if you take order book or let's say, we have done the order book of INR 20,000 crores. So we needed performance bankers already been submitted to the elective already. We have an exposure of more than INR 600 crores, INR 700 crores in terms of the guarantee. Exact numbers I'll ask [indiscernible].
That's very helpful. Going back to the CapEx for roughly how much would be a CapEx for a typical order size, if you can give us as an example?
CapEx is what sense?
You said that most of these things are CapEx intensive. So did you mean working capital, CapEx in that case?
Working capital.
The next question is from the line of Abhijit Purohit from Cabira Securities Private Limited
Yes, sir. Sir, firstly, congratulations on a really strong set of numbers. And I used to know that after the implementation, there will be a lot of maintenance and updates and troubleshooting that you might be coming in smart meters -- so how do we plan to support that infrastructure going forward?
So on team it has to manage these meters and it is -- and this is not something we are doing for the first time currently also as on date 0.5 million meters installed in Rajasthan for the ones done by us. So all these smart meters operational and maintenance once you installed for the for 6 to 7 years, everything will be done by us. .
Okay. Okay. And also, sir, I wanted to know a broader picture from you. Since there are very optimistic environment that we can see for smart meters going ahead. So do you see or do you think that there might be some other strategic partnerships like GIC coming are going forward?
Currently, for Genus, we are not seeing anything. We don't need it. exclusive and GIC and Genus created a platform, which is exclusively working for a -- in the industry, I don't know no platform at I'm not seeing anything directly.
The next question is from the line of Vignesh from Sequent Investments.
So my first question is I'm trying to understand what is our, say, in a normalized how many meters can you install in a year as a like capacity of installing and number of meters in year?
There's no capacity to install the number of the there's no practical way to find out any CapEx, how many meters can be installed in the year. But do we expect in this financial year, the country will install a 60 million to 70 million smart meters. That is my expectation.
Okay. So as in for our company, we can scale it quite easily if we decide on to install the higher number of meters, right? .
Yes. Installation capacity depends on the number of people in the number of circles, we are working. So yes, it is expandable. I don't need any CapEx to extend this kind of capital.
Okay. Okay. Got it. Okay. Right. So -- and if I'm -- just earlier commentary earlier where one of the investors asked about supply plus installation you said after the supply of the meter and installation delivered and operated, you get around 60%, 65% of the total money. Rest I'm assuming is O&M, that is spread over the number of years of contracts?
Yes.
So that is -- I mean, only divided over the year, right?
Yes, that is equally divided over the years.
Okay. Okay. And if I understand it right again, you told that it is anywhere between 24 to 30 months for the project any project that is awarded to be executed, right?
Yes. execution period is anywhere from 24 to 30 months. And thereafter, you have to maintain it for 6 to 7 years.
And Okay. After that, so everything inclusive it is total 10 years.
Everything inclusive it is total 10 years.
The next question is from the line of Sumit Mota from Credent Inforce.
So, basically, I wanted to ask one thing as the management said that they are looking to export -- so going ahead in next 5 years, on the revenue front, what percentage of revenue are you expecting in export -- and what is it of domestic? .
Second of all, as you said for O&M, it's 10 years. So margin perspective is we want to underline. So O&M has a better margin on the smart meters installation has a better margin? And the last question would be but are we manufacturing smart meters. We are sourcing smart meters from somewhere. And if we are sourcing sourcing it from here these are my 3 questions?
So as of all we expect our export to grow significantly, but I don't are not in a position to signify any number currently that are down the line where we will be. But yes, there's a lot of investment and focus from the company side is going on the export market in which is from our results also in the current order. But I don't want to number anything what will be the situation in here? Go number one. Question number two, -- in terms of margins, definitely, O&M is comparatively better than by supply installation. So we maintain the same. Dealers is a smart meter manufacturer. Every smart pit is strong by Genus is produced by Genus.
The next question is from the line of Rashi Pandya from Finest Capital.
Sir, just wanted to confirm our current capacity and are we expanding capacity because you have mentioned in our press release as well?
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So currently, we use comfortably we produce anywhere from 1 million meters monthly, and we are adding up some capacity now Gohati plant. So we will reach to a comfortable level of INR 1.5 crore electronic meters every year.
Precisely should be around 30 million capacity that is what we are adding .
So we are adding around 3 million meters capacity we currently do around 1 million a month, and then we'll comfortably do INR 1.5 crores a year.
The next question is from the line of Rishab Kang from Santa Family Office.
So the smart meter opportunity is for the next 4 to 5 years, as you mentioned, and post that entire sense should have the smart meters, right? I want to understand what could be the business plan once all the smart electric meters installed in the country at because the replacement cycle will also take some time to come. So what are the other opportunities that will help us in maintaining the revenue run rate, which we might have by the first year-end, let's say, INR 3,000 crores I understand that you mentioned about smart gas meters, smart water meters and exports.
I would like to understand what is the market size target reliable market for us in the smart gas meters in India, smart water meters. Also, what kind of export opportunity we actually see for all such kind of meters? Because -- in the export export, I understand that we will only be selling the hardware device and how do we earn any money from the installation and operation and maintenance. So how does it work, sir?
Export market, as you rightly said, will be focused as a hardware solution provider. And currently, we are working fairly large opportunities in different parts of the world. So which is our focus area. So as a to put a number, how much is the addressable market in terms of gas meters in India, Yes, we can see some 8 crore to 10 crore gas meters should be sold in like 7 to 8 years. So that will be a good in market for the domestic side. When it comes to international bottom meter market, we have just entered in that, that is our long-term vision. -- tilso, we expect motormeter segment will take a very big boom in 2 to 3 years.
We are developing ourselves as a strong water meter player for divesting market also and for the international market also -- so we are working on multiple opportunities currently to make sure that 5G is down the line, 6 years on the line one, we don't see such a surge in the smart electricity leader that our revenues are being maintained. Some multiple revenues are being upon export market or the middle market gas meter market. And of course, our O&M will give fairly good amount of business year-on-year and electric meter in the country. Electric meter is not going to finish. It's not that key. Once all smart meters are installed there will be more new connections or no new leaders in right to the numbers in this significantly low, but it will have some numbers to take care of -- so currently, I can't give you exact 3 years, but there are multiple opportunities we are working about -- and we have a good 4 to 5 years in ahead of us so that we can plan better and we make sure that we are there to achieve -- we don't let the numbers go down significantly when this opportunity GOES.
Okay. What is the life in terms of years, right, for the smart metric meter and gas leader first question. Second, on the smart gas meter side, what is the unit value of each smart gas meter -- and would it also have like 50% value attributable to the hardware device and 20% and 30% at table to the installation and [indiscernible] in?
[indiscernible] we are not doing anything related to O&M. We are a pure a supplier currently, which hovers around anywhere from INR 1200 to INR 1500 for a normal gas leader. And smart gas meter is around INR 3,000 to INR 3,500. And mostly in India, normal, it's not gas meters are being sold. So that is one thing. Secondly, in terms of what was your second question?
So what is the life of most of the kind of like meter?
Gas needs will guaranteed for 3 to 5 years is part because a guaranteed for 10 years. That is the line of the say smart meters, there are a lot of components which are perishable like batteries, capacitors so many things in the smart meters into 20 years down the line does have to be replaced. .
And smart gas meters, the margins also will be around 15% EBITDA margin. Or would it be lower because you are [indiscernible].
Yes, it's like a hard -- Very difficult to [indiscernible] number right away. .
Sir. And on the smart gas meters, it's your current capacity that you have there, I understand you have [ 7 million existing ] capacity, can you make the electronic meters.
Gas meters currently, we do around 40,000 to 50,000 meters a month. .
And you will need to build another capacity for the smart gas meters, right?
Yes.
And how much set capacity actually cost? Can you give an idea on how much maybe let's say, 1 lakh capacity, how much does it CapEx?
Again, I don't have any perfect numbers in my hand currently for the gas meters we are asking. But it's not, again, a very CapEx intense for industry. .
Okay. Just last question on the export side, when we sell all these hardware devices, so around 50% to what I understand is attributable to the hardware level -- so what are the kind of margins that we have here? And what other countries are actually in the future might go to the smart an opportunity which we are doing right now, -- any add on that?
So when it comes to smart meters across the globe, every electric point will become smart over a period of time. So almost every nation in the world is going for smart -- what is there in wear a hardware supplier to the world currently. We are not doing any O&M work to any customer right now. Right now, we are aware we used to do 3 years, 4 years back in India. So you used to supply meters can give the guarantee of the meters, Same thing we are doing out India currently.
So what can be the unit value for the export and the EBITDA margins for when we expect the hardware devices?
Again it is acustom-build product, we sell meters anywhere from $50, $60 to upto $400, $500, depends on the product. .
And margins?
Export margins are comparatively better than the [indiscernible]. .
So I can assume around 15% on hardware devices?
You can.
No, no, What do you think, sir?
Because like are better than the in the domestic market.
The next follow-up question is from the line of Akash from Dalal and Roger.
I had one question on the PAT margins prices. So basically, sir, currently, 1 is the finance cost? And secondly, are losses from the JV entity have diluted our PAT margins quite significantly. So how would be the trajectory for those 2 line items going forward for FY '25, '26?
[indiscernible].
Do you have any further follow-on questions. Will move on to the next question. The next question is from the line of Chandresh Malpani from Niveshaay Investment Advisors.
Sir, my question is on the communication technology, like the installer meters either in cellular or RF technology -- so the data suggest that the advanced economies in the world have have been successful on using the RF technology. So sir, like there is something different in India because of density or the geography that cellular will also succeed or just your opinion on this?
Personally, I don't agree to this data that advanced economies have successfully done only -- across the globe, both RF and [indiscernible], depending on the place situation, network availability are successful and same will happen in India. We will see a lot of places cellular are successful. You will see a lot of places RF is successful. Practically, whether it is India or across the globe, it will be a hybrid solution that will work.
Okay. But it depends on the area by area.
Absolutely. I think we can take a couple of more questions.
The next follow-up question is from the line of Smith Amada from Cerence.
For giving me the opportunity again. So in the current results, we see that you have a JV of 26% on the major order book, which have been reported by the company in the results. So why is this JV volume so low as of 26%, like how -- can you just explain the working of this order of 26% from the entire order book? Because majorly is your JV, which is taking away the order and only 26% is coming to Genus?
It is not like that. GV needs the platform. All the orders are moved to the platform and the platform gets the EPC contract to the Genus. And which is around 75% to 80% of the value. 36% is the investment of Genus in the platform.
The next question is from the line of Rishab Yang from Santam office.
Sir, just on to ask one thing. On the smart gas meter side and smart motor meters that you mentioned, what is the stance of the government? Are we also planning to like estimate installed in the next 5 years across the country. Any stance on the government side you have on this?
So on the gas to city gas distribution is very clear and the government has a clear mandate that every household, every gas connection to the pipeline. So when -- so we expect the opportunity of around 8 crores to 10 crores gas meters to be sold in the next 7 to 8 years. On water meters, there on the ground, some work is happening, but nothing significant which I can estate.
And whenever the gas meters get installed, it would be the smart gas meter and not the normal gas right?
It will be both. Currently, India mostly is a normal gas meters, which are being installed.
Ladies and gentlemen, we will take that as a last question for today. I would now like to hand the conference over to Mr. Jitendra Agrawal for closing comments. Over to you, sir.
Thank you all for joining this call. We are grateful for the diligent FYs and earnings basing commitment of our team members who have made these achievements profitable as we possess to solidify our position in the smart metering industry. We are fully dedicated to upholding our core values of innovation, sustainability and customer manufacturing. We are looking forward to the prospects and abstracts that awaits us. If you have any additional questions, please contact Star Investor Relations adviser, we will make sure you get your reply. .
Thank you very much. Have a good day. Good evening. Thank you.
On behalf of Genus Power Infrastructures Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you all for joining us. You may now disconnect your lines.