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Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Gateway Distriparks Limited Q4 FY '23 Earnings Conference Call. This conference call may contain forward-looking statements about the company, which are based on beliefs, opinions and expectations of the company as on the date of this call.
These statements are not the guarantees of future performance and involve risks and uncertainties that are difficult to predict.
[Operator Instructions]
Please note this conference is being recorded. Today, on the call, we have with us Mr. Prem Kishan Dass Gupta, Chairman and Managing Director; Mr. Ishaan Gupta, Joint Managing Director; Mr. Samvid Gupta, Joint Managing Director; Mr. Sandeep Shaw, Chief Financial Officer; Mr. Rajguru Behgal, President, Rail; Mr. Manoj Singh, President CFS.
I now hand the conference over to Mr. Prem Kishan Dass Gupta. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thank you. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and a warm welcome to all the participants to the post results earnings call of Gateway Distriparks Limited. We have uploaded our results, press release and investor presentation on the stock exchanges and the company's website. I hope you all had an opportunity to go through the same.
The company has done well given that the exports have been suffering in the second half of the year. However, we can see an upward trend in the same starting from the month of March. And we are hopeful that, going forward, we will see growth in our volumes and improve the efficiency which were impacted in the last 2 quarters due to imbalance and lower double-stacking cost while lower exports versus imports, which increased.
One thing that we want to note is that we were operating Punjab Conware CFS at Nhava Sheva for 10 months in the previous year, which is not there in the financial year '23 financials. For a like-to-like comparison, excluding Punjab Conware CFS, the throughput grew by 6.19%, total revenue grew by 10.5% and the total EBITDA grew by 1.2% for the full financial year.
Just to compare the revenue from Punjab Conware operations were INR 89 crores. EBITDA, INR 15 crores. And after taking into account the lease of INR 20 crores that we had to pay and the depreciation, so you can see the increase in the pack excluding Punjab Conware.
In addition, we had a one-time INR 11 crores gain in the previous year in FY '22 due to acquisition of 2 acres of land in the [indiscernible]. In addition, we are focusing on increasing our network footprint, and we are actively evaluating new terminals in Northern and Central India.
We welcome any questions or comments that you may have at this time. With that, I hand it over to the moderator for Q&A session. Thank you.
[Operator Instructions]
The first question is from the line of Sumit Kishore from Axis Capital.
My first question is that with commissioning of the Prithla-Rewari stretch...
Mr. Kishore, sir, your audio is not clear, can you use the handset mode while speaking and not the speakerphone?
Yes. My first question is in relation to -- yes, my first question is in relation to commissioning of Prithla-Rewari stretch on Western DFC now. What is the outlook on Gateway's double-stack volumes for FY '24? And how many double-stack rates did you handle in FY '23? And so, so far, this fiscal -- what has been the focus? That's the first question.
Okay. It's Rajguru this side. I'll start regarding this new section, which has been recently commissioned. So basically, this is a Dadri to Rewari section up to new Prithla. So the double stacking has already started from Dadri side, but we have a terminal at the Piyala, Faridabad.
The OHE work has started, and we are expecting that we will also use this opportunity to start double stacking from our Faridabad terminal in another 3 to 4 months' time.
Okay.
So as you are aware that we have increased the network of our terminal. So right now, we are able to do double stacking only out of our Gurgaon terminal. But with this section coming up, we will be having twin hubs; one at the Gurgaon and one at Faridabad. So we will be able to -- we will have a leverage that we can do double stacking in both these locations.
And with regards to the double stacking volume, about 40% of the volume was guided on the second stack of this year.
And what is the outlook for FY '24, you would state, with all these developments?
It depends on the EXIM balance. So with exports improving, we should go back up to at least 50%. And Faridabad becoming double stack and Viramgam-Mundra also becoming a double-stack route, this number should increase.
Okay. My second question is how is the EXIM imbalance playing out so far this fiscal and what is the outlook for FY '24? And also with all the double stacking benefits, do you see the road to rail shift accelerating?
Yes. So if we see the EXIM -- overall EXIM imbalance, so if we talk about Mundra, so there is less imbalance. But -- yes, there are some ports like the Pipavav where there is more EXIM balance.
But it is still in the range of like 57% is import and 43% is export. But this is primarily due to the reason that there was a degrowth of around 10% to 12% on the export side. But this year, what we are anticipating is that now ultimately, the export is going to come back to its original number. And this imbalance is going to get reduced.
Plus with the help of Kashipur, so we are also able to source some of the [ empties ] going towards Pipavav. So what we are looking this financial year on a positive outlook that the imbalance will get reduced.
And on the other part of the question, which was in relation to road-to-rail shift, I mean with all these higher levels of double stacking, is some road-to-rail shift happening? Or is there competition from [ roads ] actually?
No, the road to rail will take a long time. So it's a gradual shift. Like, we've maintained before it is a long-term target over the next 10, 15 years, it will jump up from, say, the current numbers of 30% to 40%, 45%. But it's not going to be an overnight shift.
Some big portion will come to a shift when JNPT is fully commissioned for the DFC.
Just one last point, for EXIM, ICD Rail container business, what is the overall growth expected from the market in FY '24? And given that you added fresh capacity, what would be the outlook for Gateway Distriparks? That would be my last question.
Sorry, it was a bit unclear, but I think if you're asking about the growth rates, we're looking at double-digit growth for the rail side. CFS side, we're expecting flat maybe a margin 1%, 2% growth.
The next question is from the line of Amit Dixit from ICICI Securities.
I have 2 questions. The first one is that we were targeting an EBITDA of INR 6,000 per TEU. But if I see in this quarter, our EBITDA per TEU has dropped Q-o-Q. So first of all, what are the factors that resulted in this drop? And is the target of INR 6,000 per TEU, has it been paced out? Have you moved the time line? Or when can we expect the company to hit to INR 6,000?
Yes. So I'm not sure which number you are referring to. But on Q4, our EBITDA per TEU is coming to INR 5,975 if we include other income as well. And it's an increase from last quarter.
Look, I'm not including the other income.
Even without other income, our blended EBITDA per TEU is coming to -- almost INR 5,600 whereas last quarter, it was closer to INR 5,100, INR 5,200.
Okay. So when are we going to hit the INR 6,000 number? I mean -- or will we hit this in FY '24 sometime?
See, basically, what has happened is due to imbalance between import and export, there was underframe running or carrying empty containers. So there was -- and the double stacking was affected. So all these lead to a lesser margin. But with exports now coming back and imbalance being reduced, hopefully it will catch up when the volumes further increase.
So we will be there. Basically, our target is INR 10,000 per TEU in the rail business and roughly about INR 2,000 in CFS business.
Okay. The second question is essentially on Kashipur ICD. So how is that shaping up? What kind of volume did we get this quarter? And what are the -- what is the target for this year? Do you expect it to hit around what we have been targeting on the INR 6,000 per TEU per month kind of volume.
So Kashipur, there has been now upward trend. So if we look at quarter 4, our market share in the Uttarakhand belt, it has risen from 25% to 32%. So we are able to attract new business from our competition ICDs. So earlier, we were doing on an average INR 2,500 TEUs per month from Kashipur.
But now going for -- like in March, we did close to INR 3,000 TEU. But this quarter, we are expecting that at a run rate of INR 4,000 TEUs per month, we should be able to do close to INR 50,000 per year from Kashipur itself.
And in another 2 years' time that rate would be INR 6,000 per month. So we will be hitting at INR 72,000 per annum after 2 years.
The next question is from the line of Bhoomika Nair from DAM Capital.
Yes. Sir, just wanted to get some more clarity on the empty running and the double stack, et cetera. because it appears that the rail EBITDA per TEU has actually declined on a quarter-on-quarter basis. Or is it really that the CFS has seen enough sharper decline? Because it looks like on a blended basis, there is a bit of a decline. So can you just elaborate a little more on the details for the same?
Yes, the CFS side has taken a hit as volumes have gone down and fixed cost were sort of stable over there, whereas rail, it's more on a variable basis depending on rail haulage being the main cause. So actually, our EBITDA per TEU on the rail side has gone up this quarter compared to last quarter.
And in March, we handled the highest ever throughput that we did in the rail vertical's history. So the rail segment is going up.
Sir, would it be fair to say that CFS would have gone down to INR 1,500, INR 1,700 because otherwise, it wouldn't make sense, so that's been a kind of decline in the CFS aspect?
Yes, that is correct, Bhoomika. The CFS side is somewhere around INR 1,500, INR 1,700.
Okay. And broadly, what would be, sir, the EBITDA per TEU for rail on a broader aspect?
So without other income, it's about INR 9,700 for this quarter. With other income, it's crossing INR 10,000.
Okay. Now just because port volumes and trade, et cetera, have been a little weak over the last couple of months, have you started seeing any improvement? What are the kind of visibility that you're seeing from the client's end in terms of exports? The imbalance kind of improving, you mentioned it was 57% import and 43% export. How is the trend looking going forward?
So Bhoomika, so what we have seen is that import is the -- because India is now the real consumption story, import is robust. And if we look at the tendencies at all the Gateway ports, so they are very healthy.
Regarding exports, we are seeing some green shoots now, especially in NCR belt, there is some, like 10% increase we are seeing on a month-to-month basis in April, May. So we are expecting that this export should also start growing at other locations.
But if we look at NCR, yes, the volumes for export has started growing.
Okay. And if the Kashipur is now starting to come in, we did about INR 3,000 TEUs in the month of March, we'll probably scale up to INR 4,000 in April, May, et cetera. How is this going to benefit in terms of the double stack and the margin profile?
So we use our -- I haven't spoke. We -- containers from Kashipur come to Garhi and from there, we are sending it double stack similarly on the import side. They come to Garhi and from there the -- we send it on single stack trains to Kashipur. So double stacking -- it will help in double stacking and also faster evacuations.
I would like to add another point here. So if we look at the composition of business at Kashipur, so we have more 40 feet containers. Like, 70% of the business is of 40 feet containers. So that gives us more flexibility of more double-stacking.
Okay. Okay. And from the angle of 40% of the volumes going on the second stack, so what can this possibly increase to in as we move forward with this Kashipur kind of having more amount of this 40 feet deals?
So the target is to go up to 50% right now in the immediate term. And once the new wagon comes in, it can go even higher.
So in this sense, and this would help in terms of ensuring that our EBITDA per TEU kind of moves upwards of INR 10,000 without the other income as we move forward. Would that be a fair assessment?
Yes. The INR 10,000 per TEU actually, if the export side becomes okay, then we'll hit that without the new wagon also.
Okay. And is it possible to get the empty running charges for fourth quarter and for the full year?
It's not handy right now, but we'll share that data with you later.
The next question is from the line of Achal Lohade from JM Financial.
My first question is -- if you look at the Indian Railways volume for the fourth quarter, it is up 7% on a Y-o-Y basis. While we are -- we -- if I strip out the Kashipur number, it's probably a decline of as much in percentage term.
So can you help us understand what is -- how do we explain this? Is there a market share loss? Is it a certain location Indian Railways is doing more volumes? Any further clarity you can provide, sir?
So Indian Railways volumes include bulk also, so it is not just limited to containers and I think...
No. No. No. Sorry I am interrupting. I am talking about 7% EXIM growth for Indian Railways for containers.
Okay. So this will be the overall -- so our ICDs are located and so we can talk about the NCR market share. So we have the number in front of us. So NCR market share has only grown by 2%, whereas we are grown by 4% to 5%.
And in Ludhiana also, so we have grown by 6%, and we are able to retain our market share upto 31%.
Okay. Sorry. Sir, are you talking about fourth quarter or full year, sir? Fourth quarter, right? Actually?
I'm talking about full year.
Right. Okay. So. You're seeing 31% market share in Ludhiana, you have maintained...
Yes. And 17% in NCR.
17%. It's also maintained, there is no market share loss?
No.
Okay. And Ludhiana, what is the market growth? You said the NCR market growth is 2%. How much would that be for Ludhiana?
Ludhiana, we have grown by 6%.
And the market growth, sir?
Market growth has been less than 6%. Like, it is between 4% to 5%.
Broadly, I mean, since we maintained the market share in Ludhiana, market has grown in a similar way. That is why we are stuck at 31%, 32%.
Right. That's also fair.
Because exports dropped heavily in Ludhiana region and imports were more, so one was there was imbalance and at some point of time, we didn't entertain the new customers who wanted to use our ICD because that would have created more imbalance. So imports have surged there quite a bit, whereas exports have taken a big hit in that region.
Understood. So when you say, sir, we didn't allow customers to use our ICD, is that like we are not doing the rail transportation, but only the terminal [ handling ]. Have I understood it right?
No -- I mean -- see, we have our regular customers, they're shipping lines and our long-term customers. So beyond that, we accommodated some more business, which was coming from, say, other shipping lines.
It was more or less like a spot business. So we did some, but at some point, we had to refuse. So whether they came by road or some other operators candidates, that's a different thing. But we could have increased our volumes, but then it would have been -- and the costs would have been very high for empty running back to the port.
Right. Understood. Sir, if you don't mind, can you help us with the EBITDA per TEU? Because I'm seeing the total EBITDA for the quarter is INR 93 crores, excluding the other income. And the EBITDA per TEU is INR 5,100. So if I put INR 9,700 which you mentioned without other income, the EBITDA per TEU year for CFS is just INR 300. So if you could give the absolute EBITDA per TEU, sir? Or absolute EBITDA for CFS and rail for the fourth quarter?
When including other income, it's about -- rail is at about INR 90 and CFS is at INR 14. The other income is not exactly split vertical-wise because of things like interest income and all other and some write-backs also. So that's why we're looking it at a -- with the other income included our blended thing is coming to INR 5975 on an EBITDA of INR 104 crores.
Okay. Sorry. The split?
Split of that INR 104 crores, then, see, just allocate the TEUs to the EBITDA, I mean it's coming INR 10,500 for rail and INR 1,600 for CFS.
Understood. I see that the other income was significantly large in this quarter compared to 3Q '23. You mentioned some write-back or something. Can you please clarify on that? Is there any one-off out there?
There were some provisions made in the earlier quarters. And we collected some amounts and there were some reversals of expenses, which did not -- which were not incurred in those quarters, so that is write back in.
How much would that quantum be, sir?
Around INR 10 crores.
Around INR 10 crores.
Understood. And sir, if you could talk about in terms of the pricing scenario, how is the pricing scenario in the pockets where we are operating in? Are you seeing -- in terms of competitive intensity, are you seeing the competition giving higher discounts or rebates and putting pressure on the price?
See, competition was always there, and it still continues. We see that more on the CFS side than on the rail side because rail side location and the services and long-term contracts help in retaining the business and continuing the business.
Now we don't have to discount every now and then. So more or less, I mean, that is the CFS, which -- where the margins are being compromised.
Got it. Sir, if I may ask just one macro question. In terms of the market size, can you help us in terms of the 1 million TEUs in the Northwest market where the DFC is actually located? And within that, if you could split the -- in terms of NCR, Ludhiana and the rest?
We have these figures but Rajguru will share with you separately because that's a long list of all ICDs and total [ TEUs ] in NCR or in Ludhiana.
The next question is from the line of Abhishek from B&K Securities.
I just want to check on the CapEx side, how much will be building for '24 and '25?
Your voice is not clear. Can you please use the handset?
Yes, I just wanted to...
The line to the current participant has dropped off. We'll move on to the next question. That is from the line of Gaurav Gandhi from Glorytail Capital Management.
Yes. Just one question. If I look at the notes, total tax related issues are amounting to almost INR 160 crores and the SEIS benefits in [indiscernible] amount to almost INR 170 crores. So can you share what can be the impact of all the spending issues if anything materials?
Before the SEIS, what was the thing you said?
The SEIS benefits in this, to examine, the commissioner has raised, given us a show cause notice, The Commissioner of Customs in Kolkata regarding INR 102 crores. And in CFS business also, there are certain issues with SEIS benefits during 2015 to '18 of around INR 69 crores.
So can you throw some light on these issues, if anything material impact these has on our P&L?
There is no material impact on our P&L because the earlier government has under SEIS scheme, the DGFT issued certificates to our rail vertical and CFS vertical; not to us but to other players also, which we had encashed it when we got the certificate in the respective financial year in 2019, '20 and all that.
And after that DGFT has issued a so-called notice to us and to other players also. And therein there was vertical about questioning about this eligibility of the things and which we have taken our opinion from our lawyers because we are on a very strong thing. So that's why we are fighting against this show cause and filing our reply at appropriate forum.
Yes. Just to add, the SEIS scheme was taken away in one of the budgets speech. So all our CIS applications were processed before that, and we got the [ scripts ]. After that, we have not applied because, I mean, since it was withdrawn in the budget. So we were not entitled after that.
So prior to that, whatever was there, it was as per government policy. And as per rules and guidelines, it was not for just 1 year. I mean, we had applied for 3 different financial years, and we got it at that time.
The next question is from the line of Kripa Shankar [indiscernible].
My first question is on the market share side. So while you have clearly stated earlier that the NCR market has grown at only at about 2% to 3% and also the Ludhiana market is growing at about 5% to 6% last year. But when I look at the underlying port which is at JNPT Mundra, all of them, growth should be higher than about 5-odd percent at least. And also in terms of these shares going up 7%, where is the disconnect? Where exactly are the volumes going from these ports to?
Like, JNPT port, majority of the volume is for the Maharashtra region, which goes by road. Similarly, for Mundra, a lot of it goes by road for local Gujarat market. Pipavav is more on the rail side, but that also has its local volume.
And apart from NCR and Ludhiana, these ports are also servicing like Khanpur, Indore, Raipur, Bangalore, Hyderabad. So it's evenly distributed across the country.
Well, I do understand that, but the NCR and Ludhiana, I think are the 2 biggest rail markets in the country. And if rail is growing at 7% and these markets are some 7%, then there should be almost a 10% to 15% growth in other markets. Is my understanding correct?
Yes. So I mean, it's -- we've also had growth -- so it's not that we haven't had growth.
No. No. No, I'm not denying that, of course. I'm just asking on industry standpoint, it's quite progressing to see that Rail as a whole, the volume growth has been happening in all the sectors where -- barring the top 2 sectors for rail at least, that's what I was wondering.
So it is happening on a pan-India basis. Also, I don't know this 7% Indian Railways figures, whether it includes domestic or not also. And going strictly by the port volumes, you can't measure the trade volumes. So there's a difference -- the port is growing doesn't necessarily mean that, all that is coming to rail.
Sure. Got it. Okay. My second question is on the CapEx side. Now of course, Jaipur is expected to come on stream by any time now. So what -- when is it expected to come on? And the addressable market in Jaipur as well as -- how do you expect things to scale about that, given that Gateway would be the second player entering that market? And just some light on it and final CapEx number for FY '24 if you are informed upon the numbers.
Yes. So Jaipur will come by the end of this financial year. And right now, there's one ICD there. The second one will be starting very soon, and we will be third ICD there. The total market size is anywhere from INR 10,000 to INR 12,000 TEUs and it's growing quite fast.
So we -- earlier when we had announced, then there would be only 2 ICDs. But now considering 3, we at least expect to take a third of the market share within 2-3 years of being operational.
Since Kashipur was an acquisition, it was already up and running. The Jaipur will take a bit more time to develop and grow as shipping lines open there, [ BL points ] we create a presence over there from scratch.
And the fact is that looking on the double stack route and the location that we have, so from Garhi, we can top it up with the volume in both the directions, between Garhi and the port. So it will add to the double stacking operations.
And on the CapEx side, we had mentioned, so about INR 300 crores CapEx is planned for this year and next year combined, which will include 2 locations, new locations and also upgradation of existing terminals as well as Jaipur and the placement in our vehicles fleets.
Okay. And recondition is still not on your plans?
Sorry, didn't understand that.
The reconditioning plans are still not part of the CapEx which you have outlined so far for the next two years?
We'll be going on a lease model for the recondition and we have 3 rec planned for the financial year.
The next question is from the line of Achal Lohade from JM Financial.
Just wanted to check, given the -- now the merger is done, is there any synergy benefits you would be able to talk about now? What has driven this in terms of the benefits?
So there are softer benefits which we can't really quantify but it's a leaner management team, it's better negotiation with shipping lines, stakeholders, because customers and vendors are common for both verticals. And we have a centralized office now where we had 2 offices earlier.
A lot of compliance-related issues, they're much smoother now. So those are the main benefits. And then having a larger balance sheet, improved credit rating, cash flows are also within one company. So that makes it much easier for us.
Even the leakage of money due to upstreaming in the parent company. So -- and you can see that benefit also in the financials.
Understood. Sir, just with respect to Kashipur ICD, would it be possible to give some more understanding in terms of the EBITDA per TEU for Kashipur? It would be higher than the blended average, right, given the higher lead?
Yes. So it's -- yes, slightly higher, but not that much different from our average EBITDA per TEU.
The next question is from the line of Atul Tiwari from Citi.
Sir, just trying to understand if...
Sir, sorry to interrupt. Sir, your audio is not clear. Can you use the handset mode while speaking?
Yes. Am I more clear now?
Sir, sounding a little distant.
Yes. Is it better now? Hello?
Much better, sir.
Yes. So just trying to understand the EBITDA per ton in the rail and CFS business in fourth quarter, so you said that it is INR 9,700 in the rail business and about INR 1,600 to INR 1,700 in the CFS business, right?
Right.
Yes. Sir -- but if I, sir, do that calculation, I get a number which is much higher and the total is about -- is much higher than INR 94 crore, which is your reported EBITDA ex of other income.
Yes. So I think it's better to just focus it on including other income because all this is related to the business only and things like auction income and some write-backs of provisions. We will just rework excluding other income number, since the sheet I have in front of me might have figure off, but it won't be too distant.
I mean, if you look at the overall EBITDA for the quarter, it is INR 104 crores roughly. And on that, if we take INR 10,500 for rail and INR 1,600 for CFS, then those numbers are fine, but excluding other income, it will be slightly lesser than what we were seeing earlier.
Ladies and gentlemen, that was our last question for today. Participants who have missed out due to time constraint, they can reach out to the management and SGA. On behalf of Gateway Distriparks Limited, that concludes this conference call. We thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines. Thank you.