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Engineers India Ltd
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Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Engineers India Limited Q4 FY '23 Earnings Conference Call hosted by DAM Capital. [Operator Instructions] Please note, this conference call is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Ms. Bhoomika Nair from DAM Capital. Thank you, and over to you, ma'am.
Yes. Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the Q4 FY '23 Earnings Call of Engineers India Limited. We have the management today being represented by Mr. Sanjay Jindal, Director of Finance; Mr. Suvendu Padhi, Company Secretary and Investor Relations; Mr. R.P. Batra, Executive Director, Finance and Accounts and Investor Relations; Mr. Sunil Saxena, Executive Director, Technical and Investor Relations; Mr. Amanpreet Singh Chopra, General Manager, C&MD Office and IR; Mr. Vivek Midha, General Manager, Marketing, Business Development and IR; Ms. Neha Narula, Senior Manager, Company Secretary and IR.
I'll now hand over the call to Mr. Jindal for his initial remarks, post which we'll open up the floor for Q&A. Over to you, sir.
[indiscernible] and good evening, everybody, and a warm welcome to all. Recently, we have declared our annual results for the financial year '22-'23 and the information are with respect to stand-alone and for stand-alone results.
With respect to financial performance for the year ended 31st March 2023, on a stand-alone basis, the company has raised a turnover of INR 3,284 crore in comparison to INR 2,870 crore in the last year ended 31st March 2022, which is the highest in the last 10 years.
With respect to last year, there is an increase of around 14.5% in turnover of financial year '22-'23 in comparison to financial year '21-'22. The turnover from the Consultancy and Engineering segment stood at INR 1,418 crore and from Turnkey segment was INR 1,866 crore. Total turnover is INR 3,284 crore.
In the fourth quarter, the company has achieved a turnover of INR 866 crore in comparison to INR 831 crore in the quarter ended 31st December 2022, showing an increase of around 4% on a quarter-on-quarter basis, with turnover from Consultancy & Engineering segment amounting to INR 371 crore and INR 495 crore in the Turnkey segment. However, our margins are up by several folds that is 3.3x. There is increase of 230%.
During the fourth quarter ended 31st March 2023, the company earned a profit of INR 159 crore in comparison to INR 48 crore earned in the previous quarter ended 31st December 2022. During the year ended 31st March 2023, the company earned a profit after tax of INR 342.15 crore in comparison to similar profit of INR 344 crore in the last year.
The company is having a healthy earning per share of INR 6.09. On a consolidated basis, the company earned a profit of INR 346 crore for the year ended 31st March 2023 in comparison to INR 140 crore earned during the last financial year '21-'22. Therefore, there is an increase of 147% in the consolidated profit on year-on-year basis. Overall, in the RFCL project, this unit is operating at the full capacity and excellent energy numbers, and we are expecting more and more profit in the coming time. And some of the other highlights are as follows: Our cash flows are very positive and leanness is visible on trade receivables.
ER trade receivables reduced considerably during the year '22-'23. Our debtor stood at INR 353 crore during the year as compared to INR 371 crore. The debtor [indiscernible] number of days of turnover has declined to 39 days during the financial year '22-'23 from 47 days during the financial year '21-'22, which is the lowest in the last 10 years.
During the year, the company earned a total dividend of INR 62.39 crore as against INR 41.78 crore during the financial year '21-'22. And in the current financial year, we have earned a dividend of INR 55 crore from the NRL investment.
And in the -- as on date, we have the order book status. In the current year, order inflow in EIL increased significantly to INR 4,708 crore in the financial year '22-'23 as compared to order inflow of INR 1,687 crore in the last financial year.
Recently, the company has received the following major foreign jobs order: USD 22.14 million for supervision of Guyana integrated NGL plant in the Guyana, South Africa -- South America. EPCM job of USD 39.04 million for the Greenfield 4000 TPD Urea and 2300 TPD Ammonia Complex in Nigeria.
Above order inflows increases the international footprint as part of vision of the company for the geographical diversification. And this is the highlight of the annual financial period.
Bhoomika, now I hand over to you.
[Operator Instructions] We take our first question from the line of Venkatesh Subramanian from LogicTree Investment Advisers.
Congratulations on a good performance. And I've been recently reading up quite a bit of media releases and EIL is on path to further growth in the next few years. So 2 questions, sir. One is, I understand oil and gas continues to be a primary source of revenue for the company and you're also planning to increase your order book in the Middle East further. But I'm more interested, while that goes on at a particular growth rate, if you can indicate some sort of a growth in top line over the next 5 years from the oil and gas segment?
And number two, from the new areas that you've been pointing out, which is in terms of renewables or nuclear power or anything else where Engineers India is now foraying into, what is the kind of vision that you have over a 5-year period that we can look forward to for the company?
Good morning -- good afternoon. This is Vivek from EIL. Regarding this growth, you are correct that our core area and core focus would be oil and gas because there the business lies right now, and it's going to be there. Specifically, we see there's a lot of growth in the petrochemical sector. So all the refineries are going towards the petrochemicals.
Many crude chemical complexes are being planned, and we are involved in various studies. So we see a lot of perspectives out there. And definitely, these projects are going to be there in the next 4 to 5 years because they are right now in the book, like in the conceptual stage. So when these gets realized, it will be in actually next 2 to 3 years, 4 years because you must have seen that we have a few opportunities that have been published in the information that's been given in the media also with IOCL part of deep refinery compared to chemicals which -- IOCL's petrochemical complex, which is INR 61,000 crores as well as BORL is also going for the refinery expansion and petrochemical complex.
So in similar ways, all the companies are moving towards it. So that's actually a very lucrative sector for all of us and it's a core for us. So we'll be targeting that. With regard to the other sectors, we have already moved into the other sectors like green hydrogen, bioethanol, biofuels, coal gasification, and then fertilizer is also growing. We are going into that. And then non-ferrous metallurgy is also going. We are also entering into defense nowadays. So these are the sectors we have targeted now and we are working towards it.
Like -- sectors like green hydrogen or green ammonia or the green areas, these are the new sector -- coal gasification are the new areas. So most of the activity is happening right now, is in the conceptual stage, means like studies are being conducted. And we see that it is going to increase -- it is when the project viability is established, the project will be established.
So we see that opportunity out there. So this is the perspective we are looking at it. And like going with the international. International is the another area now we are going to focus. You must have seen that this year, international has given a very good contribution in our business. So we have also changed our strategy, and we have started focusing on the international market.
So we are strengthening our Middle East office, which is located in Abu Dhabi. So that is going to take care of the Middle East market business as well as we said more manpower, more projects have been targeted. We have also gone into -- you must have seen that this time, we have gone into the South America and secured one of the assignments. So we are also targeting nearby countries wherein we can have more business opportunities of similar types.
Then another area which is coming up very -- which is very productive for all of us and it's a niche -- it's a new area is the Africa. Africa, we are already there, and we have the substantial experience of working in Nigeria, wherein we are -- that we are constructing a refinery.
So using that experience, we have been able to secure projects for the fertilizer and now you'll be -- we are very pleased to tell you that we have received another order from the same client for the Phase II in this year, which will be reflected in this year's business. We have already signed this order recently, in last week.
So we are also thinking of having some petrochemical complex. We are talking to some clients with respect to the petrochemical complex in Nigeria as well as we are focusing towards the other African countries, wherein there are prospects of like LNG are there or fertilizer is there or oil and gas is there. So we are targeting those countries also.
So that's how we are focusing -- shifting our focus from purely being the domestic company to overseas company. So that's one of the areas. And another focus has been given from the core sectors to infrastructure. You must see that at the recent results also, our core infrastructure contribution in our business is increasing nowadays. We have been doing various projects earlier. We have been -- we have done various institutional building works, our data center projects.
Now recently, we have got one -- this year, we have secured one assignment in EPC -- on EPC basis from -- in the infrastructure segment also. So we are also focusing on the infrastructure part of it.
Perfect. Okay. Great, sir. I think it's probably too early to talk about numbers, but is it fair to assume that we have enough opportunities to probably grow at 15%, 20% top line over the next 3 to 5 years?
Exactly. So talking about the numbers is difficult because we have to target a lot of projects. Many of the projects are in the [indiscernible], but saying that this number would be there, we cannot say that with surety. But definitely, we have a target in mind. We'll be securing that much business at least in this financial year. So to maintain our business what we have secured this year. So we'll be at least trying to reach to that level and try to improve over the results and all the efforts are being on. So you must have seen in the progress in the business and the -- like visibility of EIL, you must have seen that, so that focus will continue to happen.
[Operator Instructions] We take our next question from the line of Ashwani Sharma from ICICI Securities.
Can you hear me?
No, sir. We cannot hear you very well. Please use the handset and speak a little close to your mic, sir.
Yes. Is it better now?
Yes, a little better. Please go ahead.
Yes. Sir, my first question is on the clarification. The change order that you had received during March from HRRL, is it totally implemented or still it has got something included in the backlog, current backlog?
It is yet to be implemented. It is undergoing.
Yet to be implemented. Okay.
This work we're doing already, and this is change order by way of increase in scope of work and that is to be executed in the coming time.
All right. Sir, my second question is on the [ LOI ] that we have received worth INR 1,600 crore. What is the breakup of that in terms of consultancy and the turnkey projects?
Sorry, I could not get you. Your voice is not clear.
I'm sorry, sir. I'm saying that the INR 1,600 crore of [ LOI ] orders that we have received, which you had mentioned in the press release...
You are talking about go ahead orders?
I'll just come back. I'll come back in the queue.
Okay.
We'll take our next question from the line of Dixit Doshi from Whitestone Financial Advisors.
First question is a clarification. So if I see the Q3 end, our order book was around INR 7,865 crore. This quarter, we received in new fresh orders of INR 3,900 crore. And if I remove the execution of INR 865 crore, the order book should have been INR 10,900 crore, but it is reported around INR 7,695 crore. So there is a difference of INR 3,200 crore. So is it related to this change order?
Yes. This is basically related to the change order, which we have received and accepted during the current quarter. That is already reflected in our order book as of 31st December '22.
Okay. That was already there on 31st December...
Order book.
Also this INR 3,200 crore difference, how -- I mean, where it has gone?
This is basically from the 2 major projects we are executing for the Turnkey segment.
So that INR 3,200 crore is yet to be executed, right?
Some part of it is being executed and the other part will be executed over a period of time.
So how much is...
Basically, these projects are spread over a period of 3 to 3.5 years. So revenue is recognized over a period of time. Some of it is being executed and balance will be executed over a period of time.
Okay. So this change order basically is not entirely reflected in this INR 7,695 crore order book?
No, that is totally reflected in INR 7,695 crore. I told you that as of 31st December '22, we have taken that into consideration while calculating the order book status, but that was not coming in the order inflow.
Okay. Okay. Okay. Now secondly, can you just help me to understand the INR 78 crore write-back in the other expenses?
Yes. Basically, you are aware that we are executing some major projects, and we are creating provisions for contractual obligation in our financial books when the job over in case no liability comes. So whatever provision we have created over a period of time that is being written back. So we have a settlement for one of the major orders in this quarter and the write-back on account of that particular order, majorly on account of that particular order.
Okay. Okay. And that is also part of both the segmental profit like consultancy and turnkey?
So that is a part of the consultancy segment profit.
Consultancy segment profit. Okay. So assuming that every year, we have some change order, the annualized basis, we can expect consultancy to post 27% to 30% range of margin and EPC at around 4%?
We target for that, but that depends on the basically completion of that particular project when the -- our integrity is going to be write back. So that depends on the basically settlement of change order and completion of job. The margin may vary from quarter-to-quarter, but our aim is to maintain the range.
Okay. And you mentioned that the technical execution cycle is around 3, 3.5 years. So that is for both the outstanding order book, current Consultancy and Turnkey?
Yes, both -- for the both basically. Major order in the Consultancy & Turnkey segment are between 3 to 3.5 years, plus there are certain small orders also which are executed maybe between 1 year or 6 months also. But on an average, you can see that our order book is being executed in a period of 3 years, 3 to 3.5 years.
Okay.
Generally, all the mega projects and midsize projects ranges from 3 to 4 years.
Okay. Okay. And lastly, on all the opportunities you have mentioned, the upcoming opportunities on the hydrocarbon side or even infra side or even ammonia side. So considering all this, do you expect that -- I mean the non-hydrocarbon business can be 30%, 40% over -- of the overall EIL business over the next 3 to 5 years or still you feel that hydrocarbon will remain dominant?
Actually, hydrocarbon will always lead because we have mega projects and their values are high. So they are at least -- next 5 years, they are going to lead probably in times to come when all these green initiatives and all gets more frequent and projects are implemented. Right now, most of the things are on the paper. When these projects are implemented -- right now, many of the projects have been implemented under the government pressure.
So they have to establish the commercialization of it and gradually when the project becomes more viable, then definitely, our segment will also increase. In fact, we are also changing -- we are moving towards it. This year, in the Energy Transition segment, we have almost secured business worth 10% of the overall business. So that percentage has increased drastically, which never used to be there in the earlier segment -- last year.
And moreover, EIL is known for their technical capability. So we are targeting high-end engineering projects. And as on date, high-end engineering projects are oil and gas sector. And that's why we are having 27% segment profit in the consultancy job. And in the infrastructure job, you cannot think of even double-digit figure. So in the interest of bottom line, definitely, we are targeting oil and gas sector at this time.
[Operator Instructions] We take our next question from the line of Charanjit Singh from DSP Mutual Fund.
Congratulations on good set of numbers. Sir, my first question is in terms of the order inflow outlook, if you can give a guidance in terms of what is our expectation for this financial year? And which would be the large projects in the petrochemical side or the refinery side, which would be targeting? That's my first question, sir.
First is that we will try to batch what we have secured this year. We will try to improve upon that. It won't be right to give the figure right now, but this is just a startup, right? And at least we are going to meet that, and we are going to improve on that. And with respect to the pet chem and other projects, you must be aware that we have talked about the BORL which is going for the refinery expansion as well as the pet chem. So that's definitely on the card.
Then we have [indiscernible] expansion project, which is going to come in future. Then many of the other refineries like in private sector also, we are thinking of [ crude to ] chemicals. We are working with them. We are preparing a feasibility report for them.
Then another private sector like -- we are already involved in the earlier polymer project. They are also thinking of specialty chemicals. So we are also working for them. IOCL is also thinking of a few petrochemical facilities in Gujarat. In times to come, they'll be floating a tender, so we'll be also participating there. This would come in this financial year -- largely in this financial year. So these prospects are definitely there.
And sir, from a mix perspective, between Turnkey and Consultancy, what could be the mix we can expect in the order inflow?
It would be primarily the -- first is -- you know that traditionally, we will be going for the LSTK only on the OB mode, wherein we are more secure. So Consultancy, PMC and EPCM would be leading. This year, LSTK has ratio -- it's already 57%. Naturally, we'll try to maintain the same ratio next year also because we are also focusing on the OB kind of projects from -- right now from the oil and gas sector as well as in the other different sectors also, we are trying to get into that kind of mode. So let's hope for the best.
We keep our fingers crossed. We should be able to get more into OB. And selecting LSTK, definitely, we will be targeting them. And we see that it could be approximately 50-50 in times to come.
So 50% Consultancy and 50% Turnkey, that is what we are expecting?
It would be there.
Okay. Sir, and...
It is ideal choice...
Ideal choice, but depending on the business, definitely we will not be refusing any business. So ideally, we want to look like this.
Basically, our consultancy business depends on the mega project in India because all the oil and gas -- all the projects in oil and gas sector are driven by the government schemes and government approvals. So there are so many factors for the Consultancy job.
Got it, sir. Sir, if I may, just add another 1 question. So in terms of the defense and some of the new segments while you have touched upon, but if you can just also give some more color in terms of what is the area which we are targeting in the defense? And you also touched upon coal gasification where we have already seen a coal gasification policy and Coal India looking to get into that opportunity. So that's a totally new area. So these 2 segments, if you can highlight more, sir?
The defense we will be working with the -- we are trying to enter into the Ordnance Factories for modernization of their plants. We have some projects online, and we are discussing with them. And -- so it's not -- it would not be appropriate to tell the name at this point of time. And with regard to the gasification, we are working with NLC, Neyveli Lignite Corporation. We have already done the Phase 1 of their project, pre-project activities part. So we are likely to see the implementation of the second phase.
Apart from that, we are also engaged with a few of the other private consultants who are right now in the feasibility stage itself, but we are working with them to see that whether that project fees and that sets from the coal to chemical projects, we are working on that, with few private sector clients. Those are mostly in the feasibility stages.
We'll take our next question from the line of Jonas Bhutta from Birla Mutual Fund.
Just a question on the oil and gas sector. We are also targeting jobs in upstream. Any updates there, what seems to be happening there? There was a few jobs that we were expecting -- projects, sorry, we were expecting from the upstream sector?
Second one was a couple of years ago and for quite some time now, we've stopped discussing the mega refinery now. Of late, it's been in the news, but any update there in terms of the possibility that this project goes through?
In the upstream sector in India, primarily we're engaged with ONGC, and we have agreement and mostly, we are focusing on the Engineering Consultancy assignments. And these projects are not in the exact exploration types. They are mostly linked with the processing of the crude oil, okay?
Processing basically subsequent to when it is taken out and the processing facilities are there, pipelines facilities are there. So all those kind of projects we are involved in. So that is the focus on the oil and gas projects.
But is this something that is going to yield us significantly large projects in the next financial or the following years, sir?
Not large project. They are going to be Consultancy. Some of them are going to be LSTK projects, which we have secured. The OB projects which are coming under that are from that segment only because we are taking up those projects on OB basis. So in LSTK segment, those will be there.
Apart from that, in Consultancy also, we are getting a lot of assignments under the same segment -- from the same segment and same kind of modernization of the facilities and all, so we are targeting those projects. Apart from that, we are also there in the international and international marketing, we are working with that now. We are carrying out a lot of feed and an engineering assignments with them in the upstream segment.
Got it. And any update on the mega refinery?
Mega refinery, which is the [ RFCL ], still on the cards, but you know that its location has been changed 3 times. So nobody can say when it's going to come. But still the work is on. We are engaged in the environmental services -- consultancy services for that project. So we don't see that hope is dying, but it's still there on the cards.
Understood. Sir, readout...
It's late, it is possible. Yes.
Got it. And you laid out certain projects that you're looking at, say, BORL, et cetera, for this financial year, are these all projects now open for competitive bidding in the sense that these are competitively bid projects that these are on nation as of now?
Basically, all these projects goes on competition basis only. These days, most of the projects we secure are on competition. We have to face the competition, and we have been facing it.
Unless it's a change order, right?
Unless it is a change order. Yes.
Okay. And if Batra ji can help explain this entire change order thing? Because it formed part of our backlog in FY -- in Q3. And then in Q4, it's not. So if -- I just missed that part if he can help me understand that.
Yes. I told you basically in the order book, that was reflected as of 31st December '22. In the inflow, we have shown that during the current quarter because that particular thing is accepted by EIL in the current quarter.
Okay. But this is something that will add to our revenue or this has already been executed and we had just put up pending bills?
Some part of it has already been executed and balance is to be executed.
How much of it is unexecuted, sir?
Right now, I don't have any figure regarding how much it is executed, but maybe 50% is executed and 50% to be executed. Maybe -- basically given the assumption, I don't have exact figure right now.
Sure. And what is the provisions pending? So as of 31st March, the provision schedule that you have in the balance sheet, so to account of how much -- what is -- at 1 point in time, it is to be about INR 400 CR, what is it currently?
Currently, provision may be more than INR 500 crore.
We take our next question from the line of Himanshu Upadhyay from O3 PMS.
I had a question on, we said about for growth, we want to diversify into various segments, okay? And some of them are urban infrastructure, ports and harbors and defense and biofuels and -- see, what are the areas where we don't want to focus on? Means, because we are seeing infrastructure growth happening across the board. What would be the metrics which you will be using to select which businesses you think can be really sizable, sustainable business and profitable business over a longer period of time? And hence, those would be the areas where primarily you will be focusing on?
Let's talk about -- let's talk about the infrastructure part. Infrastructure part if you see that we are primarily focused on the institutional buildings. We're not into general construction project. We work as a project management consultant. We go into the institutional buildings, we go for the data centers or kind of airports, we work for -- then other -- we have also been involved in the -- this bullet train project.
In some of the case, we have been -- we were working as a construction supervision consultant for one of the stretch of that. So these kind of projects -- niche products are targeted. We don't compete with the consultants wherein -- in those segments where -- which are low value segments and where the competition is very high and we are not likely to get the business.
Similarly, in the other segments like in the biofuel, biofuels is going to be a new area. We are already executing one of the first refinery in India, which is the bamboo-based refinery. So this is a highly technology sensitive -- technology intensive. We have entered into an agreement with 1 of the licenses to get the technology and we are implementing.
So this is adding niche to us. Similarly, in the hydrogen. Hydrogen is going to be a new area. So hydrogen we are getting into electrolyzers. We are setting up hydrogen plants in the refineries from the brown hydrogen to green hydrogen, we are converting. We are working into the green ammonia segment wherein the green hydrogen is also going to work and this -- so now if you see that renewable, we are not going into renewable because renewable, in the basically solar in all these segments, there are a lot of players that are already available who are very low-cost players.
So we do not find any value for us to be in that segment and we cannot compete with those people. So that is the kind of area we pick up, wherein some technology intensity is there and we are capable of this. We can get certain assignments on a negotiation basis.
Like in infrastructure, we mostly get the projects on a negotiation basis from various clients. So this way we segregate the work and where their substantial engineering work is involved and we get the value and good -- I can book more engineering manhours, that will be our focus for selecting any of the area.
Okay. And in terms of profitability, any views you want to have that below this type of margins is not conducive for us because even in some of these fields we see some of the global players having very low margins, okay? So what will be the threshold...
[indiscernible] wherein we want to enter. It's a niche area. It's a very specific area, which is going to add value to us, then one can think about it. Otherwise, we will be very cautious while taking decisions. So every due diligence is done before bidding for any kind of project to -- we take a call on what basis we have to choose. So there's no generic written policy that what should we do and what we should not do. It depends on the case to case business.
We take our next question from the line of Mohit Kumar from ICICI Securities.
Sir, my question is what is the order left from the EPCM service for Cauvery Basin at Panipat? And what kind of revenues have put in these projects in last fiscal? And you think the ordering for Cauvery Basin at Panipat is there so do you expect it to pick up in FY '24?
I think you have to check whether -- you talking about Cauvery Basin or P25?
Both, both, both. Yes.
Yes, we are recognizing the revenue as per the progress. So right now, we don't have the figures. For P25, the work is being executed at a fast pace and the revenue is being recognized. In the Cauvery Basin also, few things are being done and accordingly, the revenue is being recognized. Right now, we don't have the -- exactly the figure how much revenue we have recognized.
No, sir, my question is the progress slow in this 2 -- in this probably because I don't see a lot of -- tender activities are very slow?
In the Cauvery basin...
In the Cauvery basin, there were certain political issues. Those will be resolved. I believe that we have seen certain articles and also things are being realized, and it hopes to come back on track in the course of time.
Okay. And sir, the crude to chemical business, which you talked about both the IOCL and BPCL, do you think that we did these 2 contracts [indiscernible] contract can be finalized in H1 FY '24 or do you think it will take a longer time?
No, it is going to take -- it'll not be in the financial -- in the Q1. It will be coming towards the end of the financial year or midway somewhere in the financial year. They might go for certain early services like [ DP Project ] services going for the licenses selection, those kinds of activities may start.
My last question on the coal gasification, I think I missed out. Are you expecting anything other from coal gasification apart from the [ NALC ] project, which you have? Do you think Coal India will award some of the orders and where we can have some large role to play?
Coal -- with coal gasification, we are working with one of their subsidiaries for Western Coalfields for a DPR for setting up coal to methanol project. And we have done the feasibility study and it is in the process, then it will be realized.
Similar way, another study is also being carried out. So still in the cards, but the faster pace is Neyveli Lignite wherein the pre-project activities are being done and tendering is being done.
We take the next question from the line of Saket Kapoor from Kapoor & Company.
Sir, firstly, just correct me here, it is the INR 70 crore -- hello? Sir, I'm audible, sir?
Yes.
Yes. Sir, firstly, in the -- for the consultancy and the engineering project business, there is a write-back of INR 70 crores in this quarter?
Hello?
Yes, sir.
Can you repeat your question, your voice is...
Yes, sir. Am I audible now, sir? Am I clear now?
Yes. Better, better.
Yes, sir. Sir, I was just mentioning about that INR 70 crore figure. That INR 70 crore is added back to the profits to the Consultancy & Engineering project segment?
Yes, yes.
Okay. And sir, what is the total provision -- cumulative provision that you have mentioned about INR 500 crore, that is...
Yes, yes.
So going ahead, keeping the contingency aside, we can see write-back of INR 500 crores?
That will be written back over a period of time in case -- that will be written back over a period of time and the project is being completed and no liability arises, at that point of time, that particular thing will be written back. In case some liability will come, that will be just from that particular provision. So that will be spread over a period of time, not in the next financial year or -- that will be spread over a period of time and that particular project will be completed.
Sir, what was this write-back figure for 31st March '22?
31st March '22, right now, I don't have figure.
Okay. Sir, if we look at our numbers in terms of about our yearly numbers, the PBT numbers have remained flat?
Yes. PBT numbers are almost flat.
Flat it is, I think, so the fertilizer RSFL contribution that was negative last year, and we have been able to lower the losses that has contributed to the profitability in the consolidation. That is what should be the -- so what is the likelihood from this Ramagundam Fertilizer going ahead? Sir, if you could give us some understanding on how the operations have been? And other than the Ramagundam, the other investment which we have made, I think so for the refinery project, what have been the dividend amount that we have received? And what is the growth plan for these 2 investments? How are they likely to accrue to the company going ahead, sir?
First of all, we have investment in Numaligarh Refinery Limited. And we have investment of around INR 700 crore in the Numaligarh Refinery. And as on date, we have fair value of INR 766 crore itself. And in the current year, we have received a dividend of INR 55 crore on the investment of INR 700 crore in the Numaligarh Refinery. Then we have subsidiary -- 100% subsidiary certification in Engineering India Limited.
And we have received dividend of INR 7.7 crore from the EIL. And in addition to that, we have investment in Ramagundam Fertilizer and Chemicals. We have 26% stake. And as I have already told this, in this year, at this moment, RFCL is operating at 100% capacity. And even sometimes it is running even more than 100% capacity. And this is the first year where RFCL has made a profit of INR 8 crore on the annual basis since it was having losses in the -- up to third quarter.
And in the fourth quarter, plant was stabilized and it was running at 100%. So it could make profit on an overall basis. And we -- in the coming year, we are expecting good profit from the RFCL investment also.
Sir, in the Ramagundam Fertilizer, what is our investment for 26% stake?
INR 491 crore.
And what is the fair value today, sir?
It is not listed.
Sir, for unlisted also, we are not evaluating it post the numbers -- the book value?
No, no. It's not required as per...
Fair value is not required.
It's basically -- investment at cost basically in the JV. So no fair value is required to be made for that particular...
Correct, sir. And sir, for the other income component, other income includes the dividend part also. Out of the INR 164 crore that we have booked for FY '23?
In the other income, we have received more dividend from the NRL as well as we have received more interest on our fixed deposits also. So therefore, there is increase in the other income also.
Okay, sir. And lastly, sir, what is the cash on the books as on 31st March?
Total cash and bank balance?
Yes, sir.
It is around INR 1,100 crore.
Okay. And this is also the advances that we have received from -- for the contract?
That includes advance [indiscernible].
So if you could segregate that amount, sir, what is our own fund -- cash fund here and the advances?
Yes. Its advances around INR 100 crore, So it's around INR 950 crore to INR 1,000 crore of cash balance.
Correct, sir. We hope that this year should be better in terms of top line and also the contribution from the subsidies would be positive. So that should be the [indiscernible] going ahead.
Definitely. Definitely.
We take the next question from the line of Ashwani Sharma from ICICI Securities.
Pardon me, if it is -- if I'm repeating the question. So the first question is that go ahead letter orders worth INR 1,600 crore, I just wondered the breakup of that number in terms of Consultancy and Turnkey?
That all belong to the Turnkey segment.
Primarily belongs to Turnkey.
It's all gone into Turnkey. Okay. Sir, second question is on the -- if I look at the order book of Consultancy segment, it has been flat at around INR 4,800 crore in the last 2 years, '23 and '22. How do you see this number improving going ahead, sir?
With respect to the order book in the Consultancy segment, now you see that order book is going to -- we are targeting that more and more Consultancy assignments. We have gone into international markets. So we see that more and more projects are coming towards it. And definitely, LSTK is going to be there.
And LSTK, we are having -- this year, we had a 50% of -- almost 50% of the stake and Consultancy was also 50%. So this Consultancy business, we are going to increase as soon as -- because we are targeting that around -- at least same kind of margin can be achieved from this. And with the addition of some of the old projects that going on in the projects, so that's how the OB is going to be flat.
Now with the addition of the new projects which we have secured in the current year, you will see the implication of that on the order book in the times to come. And we are working towards it and let's hope for the best.
Okay. Sir, on guidance, if I -- in the last few quarters, you had mentioned that there will be around INR 4,000 crore to INR 5,000 crore of order inflow in '23 and going ahead as well. Do you still hold that guidance?
Yes. We will try to maintain that.
Okay. And lastly, sir, just a bookkeeping question on the Ramagundam, what was the sales and EBITDA number, sales, EBITDA, PBT number for Ramagundam in FY '23?
It will be around INR 4,500 crore.
Total turnover.
Total turnover.
And EBITDA, sir?
EBITDA [Foreign Language].
Right now, exact figure is...
Exact figure is not available with us. So...
We take the next question from the line of Viraj Mithani from Jupiter Financial.
I have 2 questions. One, the new areas which we are talking of going into, would it be on the EPC side or the Consultancy side more? Like what would be the mix in those area with us days to come?
Can you repeat the question, please? Just again.
[Foreign Language].
See, that is up -- we put all the new areas, primarily will be going into Consultancy only because this is being a new area, so we can't take much of a risk in that. So we have to be very -- first very sure about those segments. And thereafter, in the course time -- in the course of time, we might go into the EPC in the -- later in the stages, not in the recent year, but in -- later in the year.
So the fruits of this would take around, I guess, is it fair to say it will take around 3 to 4 years to materialize, like the numbers from these new areas to start coming in a meaningful way, it should be at least 3 to 4 years away?
Should be. Should be.
Okay. And sir, my last question is, looking at the last numbers, is it fair to think that we can grow at double-digit top line and double-digit net profit margin? Will this margin could be maintained at least for next 2 years?
That is our wish. We are working towards it. But the competition at the same time is increasing. You should also appreciate that market conditions are changing. Earlier, we were the only ones, but there are a lot of people around. We have to work hard and beat them and then get the jobs. Now nothing is coming on the better.
We take the next question from the line of Dixit Doshi from Whitestone Financial Advisors.
Sir, my question was regarding the growth. As you rightly mentioned that we will be targeting a double-digit growth, but considering the order book of INR 7,600 crore with 3-year execution and we are also targeting INR 4,000 crore, INR 5,000 crore order win. So I mean even if we'll achieve double digit, it will be low double digit. Is it fair to assume?
What we have said is, we will try to maintain this. We will -- we've not said it will go below this. We'll try to improve upon this. At least this much, we will try to secure because it's a future, and we cannot predict when, but we are working towards the -- towards it, that we have to increase our top scale, and we have to reach to doublet-digit growth. That is our aim. But for the time being, at least we will maintain this kind of tempo what we have created.
We take our next question from the line of Saket Kapoor from Kapoor & Company.
Yes, sir. Just a continuation to the question, sir. So for this year, we are looking at a revenue growth of 20% of what we closed for FY '23. And if we look at the bifurcation between Consultancy and Turnkey, how the growth would be distributed among the 2 verticals, sir?
We are not giving any number, but definitely, we will try to improve whatever we have achieved during the current financial year. And definitely, there will be -- we are basically anticipating growth in both the segments. But exact figure, right now, we cannot...
Only the ballpark number, sir, the business plan must -- are done now we have the execution. So we know what the visibility is. So any ballpark number would help us understand because we were flat year-on-year last year. So taking into account -- yes, sir.
We can only say that we'll try to improve whatever we have achieved during the current financial year.
Correct, sir. Okay. And on the margin profile, sir, how will those numbers look like? Because on the Turnkey project, the margins are lower, so if you could give us the bandwidth -- the band for both the segments, that would be very helpful.
[Foreign Language] So far, we are maintaining our segment profit in the Engineering Consultancy segment in the range of 27%. And definitely, in the LSTK jobs, we are able to achieve the rate of around 3%. So we are targeting these margins in the current year also.
Correct. Okay, sir. Sir, earlier due to some -- because of some [indiscernible] in the value for, I think, for the pension part, there were some extra provisions 2 years down earlier for employee cost. So are we done and dusted with all those factors? Or how is that line item looked into, the employee benefit expenses?
Yes, maximum provision is being made basically.
No further provisioning is required on that account. We have already made sufficient provision in the financial year 2021, and no further provision is required on that account.
Okay. But we are working on the same line -- in the same way as earlier. We will take the hit -- the company is going to take the hit in case of any shortfall?
No, no. That is a legal provision. That we have to abide -- everybody has to abide. In case there is a shortfall, that has to be compensated by the employer. That is the legal provision, you cannot avoid that particularly.
But in some PSU, sir, that have been -- that has been taken off. I think so, some Gujarat state PSUs have already gone up when it changed the policy. So that was the reason why I was...
No, no. It is -- it does not depend upon this state. It is the PF Act which state that. In case there is any loss of PF Trust, the employer has to make good loss. So that's why we have made a provision. And this does not depend upon the central or state. It is applicable for all.
Correct, sir. And what is our tax rate currently, sir?
Have we moved to the new regime or...
Yes, yes. 25.168%.
Okay. And for the dividend distribution, sir, what is the policy we are adhering to, sir, 30% of the profits...
We are paying more than that. Right now, we have billed around 49% during the current financial year.
We will take our next question from the line of Raj Rishi, an investor.
How do you place yourself with respect to competition, both domestic and international? What's the edge, which EIL has?
With respect to international, we are quite comfortable because technically, we are strong. Our experience and -- core experience and that helps us out in qualifying there. And in the international market, it's primarily focused -- most of the international companies give focus on the quality of the services, less on the price as well as the price-wise, we are competitive in that market because we are from India and quality is also there. So we are comfortable there.
In India, competition is increasing because a lot of people [indiscernible]. A lot of companies are hiring locals only and we face competition from the companies who hire people for short duration and fire them but the quality of the people is not ensured, but it's there. Competition is there in India. But still, we are surviving, and we are able to get the assignments and get the business what you have seen.
So international business is presently how much, around 14%, right, of the order book?
In the -- with respect to the Consultancy, it is almost 50%. In the Consultancy, if you talk about the business terms -- business secure terms, it's almost 50% this time.
Okay. And how do you see the trend over the last -- over the next 2 to 3 years? In Consultancy, what percentage can be international?
We will try to maintain the same kind of percentage because we have increased the focus on the international market, and we have done a lot of changes within the organization itself, like more focus has been put in on the -- our Middle East office to take care of the business around that area and strengthening of the people in that office. Similarly, we are focusing on the South America. We have started focusing on Africa market, apart from Nigeria, which we were working earlier. So those activities have started, and we are doing it.
And the results have -- we have got the results of that in this year. So we hope that more of this sort business can be secured from there.
And do you think majorly it will be Consultancy only, not the...
It would be -- international market will -- right now, we will not be going for LSTK, it's going to be purely Consultancy.
Purely Consultancy. Okay. And in the government sector, are you facing competition more than earlier even in the government sector, in domestic?
Government sector, yes, we are competing in the companies like IOCL. We are beating in -- beating the private consultants and able to secure the jobs. Competition is there because everywhere they are now tendering there, it's been awarded -- works are being awarded on tendering basis.
Okay. And what's your capital allocation strategy, if you can elaborate?
What is that?
What is your capital...
Yes. Basically, we have to abide the DP guideline. So dividend is 30% of PAT or 5% of net worth, whichever is higher, plus they are basically provisioned for the buyback and bonus and splitting of shares. That we are holding up basically. As per DP guideline, we are following the capital allocation policy.
That's the minimum criteria, right? You can...
Yes, we are -- more than that basically. As per DP guideline, 30% of PAT has to be distributed. We have distributed around 49%.
Yes. But, sir, in EIL's case, you don't need cash to -- capital to grow, right? Because it's...
See, we need cash also, basically. We are having certain investments also. So for that, we need the cash also.
You think you'll be going in for more investments like refinery and fertilizers, which you have done earlier?
No material investment is envisaged right now. But we are having a...
I didn't get you. Can you just repeat it?
No material investment is envisaged as of now.
We'll take your next question from the line of Milind Karmarkar from Dalal & Broacha.
Just wanted to sort of reaffirm that Turnkey and Consultancy, roughly you have 50%, 50%, right? Am I right on that, in terms of the projects in hand or the order book?
Yes. You're audible, and it's almost -- yes, 50%, 50% as of now.
Okay. And if I say that there is a -- looking at the current, we have 27% margin in Consultancy and 3% margin in Turnkey, then effectively, on a steady state, our margin should be -- segment profit should be around 15%, right? If both are 50%, 50% then it should translate into a 15% combined margin, am I right on that?
Yes, it's about 15%.
During the current financial year?
No, overall, if I consider the order book at...
That depends on revenue recognition basically.
No, no. Fair enough. But assuming that in next -- so if we have 3-year period or a 4-year period, overall, if I add back on the profits and add back all the -- add the top line, then the results should be at around 15%. Am I right on that?
I mean, you are right, in case the -- basically, the segment remains at 50-50. You're right, very right. But the segment will not remain in 50-50. It will change. Basically, revenue recognition change depending on the progress of that particular project...
Basically, boss, you are saying our segment profit is 27%. And in case our LSTK segment profit is 3% and you are averaging it 15%, but time line does not follow as such because segment profit is different from the PBT or PAT. Segment -- after segment profit, we have certain unallocated expenses also, which are to be deducted to come at profit after tax. It cannot be straight 15%.
I'm not talking of the PAT. I'm talking of the segmented results.
Boss, it is -- 27% is right. 27% is on the Consultancy figure and 3% or 2.5% on the LSTK figure. It is right. And in the current year, we have 57% turnover from the LSTK and 43% from the Consultancy job.
Correct. So my second question was that if I look at Turnkey projects, most of the private companies typically have margins which are slightly higher than both. So what are we doing to improve our efficiency in the Turnkey projects?
Yes. In our case, these are basically not the LSTK projects. These are the [indiscernible] projects. So basically evenly distributed between the client and consultant and the contractor. So as such, there is no risk for the increase in the plant and machinery cost. So that's why the margins are low. In case of the LSTK, it can be reverse case also. In case, plant and machinery cost can be passed on to you, the margin can be negative also. In this case, we are getting the positive contribution always because our risk is basically limited. So that's why we are doing these type of jobs.
Okay. Got it. And my last question was on -- besides the cash and bank balance, are there any investments which are not investments for business, which we have like investments in mutual funds or -- these type of investments do we have in addition to cash and bank balance?
Yes, yes. We are having a temporary investment for 15 days or 1 month basically to meet our immediate working capital requirement. They have to vary between INR 50 crore to INR 100 crore.
Liquid mutual funds.
Ladies and gentlemen, we have reached the end of the question-and-answer session. I'd now like to hand the conference back over to Ms. Bhoomika Nair from DAM Capital for closing comments. Over to you, ma'am.
Yes. Thank you, everyone, for being on the call, and thanks to the management for giving us an opportunity to host the call, sir, and answering all the queries quite well. Really appreciate it. And wishing you all the very best, sir.
Thank you, Bhoomika. Thank you very much.
Thank you, Bhoomika ji.
Thank you all.
Members of the management, thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of DAM Capital Advisors Limited, that concludes this conference call. Thank you for joining with us. You may now disconnect your lines.