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Engineers India Ltd
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Thank you, I would like to welcome the management of Engineers India Limited on the call and would like to thank them for giving us this opportunity. From the management today, we have Ms. Vartika Shukla, Chairman and Managing Director and Additional Charge Director, Finance; Mr. Suvendu Padhi, Company Secretary; Mr. R.P. Batra, Group General Manager, F&A and IR; and Mr. Vinay Kalia, Chief General Manager, M&BD and IR. Ma'am, I request you to give us some opening remarks, post which we will open the floor for a Q&A. Over to you, ma'am.
Thank you so much. With regards to the quarterly performance of the third quarter of this financial year. In so far as our turnover goes in comparison on the PSY, we are about 4% up in terms of our total turnover. With regards the -- on quarter-on-quarter for the same financial year, we are up 14% in terms of our profitability, which actually showcases the high-end work that we have done in this earning of this quarter. Same way, if we see our EPS, it is higher quarter-on-quarter, and in comparison to the last quarter, it is higher by 1 point -- it's higher by about 15%. Based on the strength of the performance of this quarter in this FY, we have also declared a dividend -- interim dividend of INR 2 per share, which is equal to the total dividend of the last financial year. So we expect a robust profitability in comparison to the previous year. And going forward, we also see more businesses in our core as well as diversified segment. Would you like me to add more numbers to it? Excuse me?
Yes. Shall we open the forum for questions, ma'am?
Yes, we can. We can.
Yes, we can.
[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Saket Kapoor, Kapoor Industries.
[Foreign Language] Thank you for looking our request of conducting now regular con calls. Thank you for this continuity first. Ma'am, firstly, if you could throw some more light on the business prospect, the current business environment in terms of order intake, both for our consultancy as well as the turnkey projects. And the key headwind we are facing in terms of execution for the turnkey projects, any overrun in cost in any of particular projects? And I think, so -- the company is now pursuing a business in new technologies also by new -- it is the hydrogen business, I think, wherein we have made a breakthrough. So if you could throw some more light on the same, and then I have some more follow-ups.
Sure. So, so far as the business order inflow goes, the total order inflow up to the quarter ending -- third quarter is INR 1,507 crores, in comparison to the entire order of 1,569 for the last financial year. Largely, this order is in our consultancy segment, which is a high-end [Foreign Language]. So the large order is -- almost majority of this order inflow is in the high-end consultancy itself. So far as our order book status scores up to December '21, we are about INR 8,200 crores in comparison to last financial year end, which was INR 7,982 crores. We foresee -- we are already working on with the GAIL on hydrogen, and we are looking forward to more opportunity. We have quoted for some proposals, and we get some more proposals on high jobs on looking at various technical and commercial aspects of the hydrogen economy. We have also got a small feasibility for NTPC, which is another bio sector, the renewable sector, which will be then transforming into PMC and project management services and engineering implementation. So this stage, as we see in the market, is a stage of transition where there is a lot of feasibility and a lot of work going on in terms of assessing the investments in the diversified sector of renewables. EIL is very well entrenched in most of them in the space of not only renewables, but also in the core hydrocarbon sector where we work. And these are going to turn around into projects where EIL will have a very major role to play. And with that, we will have a -- we expect a reasonably good order book position next year. Would this suffice or?
Yes, ma'am. May I continue, ma'am? Hello?Ma'am, with -- I was coming to -- with now the execution cycle. Generally, the fourth quarter turns out to be a big quarter in terms of all engineering concerns. So how is the execution cycle currently, ma'am? We are already 45 days into the quarter, and this -- February being a lean month in terms of number of days. So how is the execution cycle picking up? And where are we going to end the year in terms of the revenue profile trajectory? If you could give some more color?
Sure. So I'm sorry, I missed that point, I should have remembered to reply to that. You're right. In the last quarter, it is not just for the engineering services also. But for every client, there are a lot of mechanical completions happening by year-end to capitalize the assets. So work is all in full swing in all our projects, whether we look at Bhatinda Refinery, whether we look at Visakh Refinery or in some ways, Rajasthan Refinery. So there is a lot of activity in terms of completion of a huge number of milestones in a couple of these mega projects. And we will be realizing definitely, as you have seen year-on-year, always quarter 4 turns out to be a better quarter with respect to implementation. We are a little -- we hope it will be picked up. It has picked up already. We have one of the highest number of manpower deployed in Visakh now in comparison to last few months. January was not that good because of COVID, but it has steadily improved and the concerted efforts on the project management to finish off dependencies to get the milestones in these projects is achievable. And it would be probably preemptive to give you a number of thoughts on Q4, but as a goal, it will definitely be better than Q3. That assurance, sir, we can definitely give you, and we are trying our best to do better than last year.
Mr. Kapoor, does that answer your question?
Ma'am, on the margin profile -- hello?
Yes.
Yes, ma'am. On the margin profile, with the inflationary trends in the commodity prices, what kind of pressure are we seeing on the margin since the raw material prices of all the commodities are moving in the northward trajectory? And -- and also, ma'am, on the point of our investment in the urea business in the fertilizer segment, I think -- so we have been posting losses in the joint venture. So this is the limitation in the investment only that is happening, and these are not cash losses, but our investments are -- are being mark to market. So this is the fair understanding of the same, the INR 31 crore loss that we have booked of share of profit from the joint venture?
Right. So let me answer your first question on the margins. From -- in respect so far as our services goes, in comparison to 9 months of last year to this year, our margins are 2% up in terms of our performance. Yes, there are some lump sum turnkey projects which we work for PMC, and the commodity prices are largely getting impact in those LSTK segment where we are not LSTK contractors, but we are PMC. Now there also, there are 2 types of contracting which happens. One, which actually compensate for commodity increase on indexing and on kind of the trend in the copper, aluminum and steel, but there are some fixed-term contracts wherein there is no benefit, which is -- or no compensation for the unprecedented rise, which has happened in the commodity prices. Fortunately, EIL is not entirely affected in some of the LSTK segments that we do. There are concerns there, but they are under control. And therein, if you can see also, the turnkey segment turnover is comparative to the 9 months of last financial year. And also comparative, in fact, higher on a quarter-on-quarter basis. On the second part, in terms of the investments we have made in the fertilizer sector, as I had also mentioned in the last earnings call, this is a unit under stabilization. And if you see on the 3 quarters performance of consult results, this quarter is better than the last quarter 1 and quarter 2 of this financial year. The plant is running at around 65% to 70% capacity. There is a limitation on the offloading of urea over there in Ramagundam, which the Railway Ministry and the Telangana Government is working upon. And it is expected that probably in March itself, we will go up to 90%. Once we have break -- breakpoint, it will only have -- it will be governed by the urea policy and the return is -- and assures 12%. So we have this joint venture with NFL, and like any operating plant, it has stabilization issues which are now almost over, and we expect a good year in the next financial year. We -- it is going to give us a good return. There would be, of course -- and what should I call, the returns are going to be governed by the subsidy, but the subsidy comes even if it is a quarter late or -- it is always there. So this is a time of transition, but once we have a steady inflow from RFCL once it's fully operating, I think it will be a stable investment that we have made.
Ma'am, what is the total investment made in this project? And as of now, how much limitation have we taken with the commissioning of the project? And -- this particular Ramagundam Fertiliser.
INR 491 crores is the total investment in Ramagundam. And the other thing what you mentioned, please, can you repeat?
The limitation which we have taken or the losses booked -- the book entry which we have provided for.
Yes, so INR 160 crores approximately.
INR 160 crores.
[Foreign Language]
Batra ji, what is the number?
Our share is around INR 160 crores for the 9 months.
Okay, okay. Yes, INR 160 crores.
INR 160 crores. So ma'am, just to get the last understanding. When the plants start moving -- starts operating at a 90% to 95% levels, what would be its contribution going forward?And then the understanding from investor community is that our -- the money of Engineers India being invested in these unrelated sectors have not been accepted very well with the investing community. You can see the type of capitalization this unique business company is commanding. Even after the buyback, ma'am, as you were mentioning about dividend, I think so last year, we also did a buyback. So that amount was also debited from our reserves and paid back to the shareholders. It should be conclusive of [Foreign Language]. But in spite of all the efforts being done the investing community is -- are finding it jittery. And that could be very well seen from the capitalization, ma'am, the way the prices have declined. And maintaining at the low levels impact where so much [indiscernible] the market. And also, with respect to budget also being so much focus on the infrastructure sector, hydrocarbon -- whichever [Foreign Language] because one of the point is this [Foreign Language], if I may use the -- correct me there, [Foreign Language] with respect to [Foreign Language] core competency, ma'am. [Foreign Language]. [indiscernible] fertilizers and refineries would eventually be on the Engineers India P&L account. This is my understanding ma'am. So [Foreign Language], how to get the investor confidence back, ma'am? What steps are you taking to build investor confidence, ma'am? You are at the helm now, I think so, not in 1 year, has passed. [Foreign Language], ma'am.
So I -- in fact -- this is also a cause of a tension from our site that despite doing very well in the financials, and we are steadily increasing profitability in terms of performance, we are steadily getting more margins and increasing our internal efficiencies. We are working in diversified areas, diversified geographies. We are doing all out to actually garner business and grow, yet the reflection of that is not being felt very positive in the market. Now all this, yes, we are a consultancy company. The large choices, as you've already stated, are only a few that a company like ours have. Whether we do buyback in a repeated manner, which brings back the liquidity and then benefits the shareholders, or we put this into secured -- may not be directly related, may not be our core business of operating and maintaining a plant, but it is -- I wouldn't say it is unrelated. So investments in RFCL, we have got INR 200 crores EPCM service because of that investments in RFCL. Today also in NFL and NRL, we have a much more -- what should I -- much more -- a stronger relationship with NRL, which, for their expansion projects, had tendered out and it had not come to EIL and we were not -- I mean, it went out of our hands. The dialogue on the strength of us being part of NRL in some ways is actually bridging a lot of requirement of NRL and coming to EIL. Today for NRL, we have sold 3 of our technologies with engineering, which is a unique achievement for a company like us. Domestic technology, which actually goes towards [indiscernible]. So these are the pluses. Today for RFCL, we are trying to work out how Nano Urea can be put in RFCL with NFL. So these are the pluses. If we have a stake there and we are part of it, it is a business which is a compounding business. I'm not -- this is not something which is immediately going to reflect. But it will be on a long-term, it will help the growth of the company to diversify its investments in this manner. So there is no -- NRL, for example, has already a commitment from the government of India in terms of benefits. Northeast is a sector which will be developing, so investments there are very secure. Once there -- and we have already got INR 16 crore dividends in the interim dividends, which NRL has already declared and which is then reflected in our books also. So I would convey to the investor community that in a short term, it may be the visibility of our investments and the visibility of the way EIL is growing -- could be viewed, I would not -- could be viewed in this manner. But in a long term, there is a strategy in it. This is a strategy -- and both which is financially sound as well as for growth, it is also quite positive and full of opportunities.
Right, ma'am. Thank you for the elaborate answer, to point on the other income...
Next question is from the line of Viral Shah from [indiscernible] Securities.
Ma'am. So basically, sir -- ma'am, could you highlight or give us more clarity on the tendering pipeline, which is there in terms of petrochemicals, various projects, large ticket sized projects like Cauvery Basin, Bina Refinery, what is the status on the same?
Okay.Cauvery Basin Refinery, we had been awarded in quarter 3 -- quarter 2, and we -- that was a job order of INR 1,039 crores, and it is both -- it is going on well. There is future, yes. There is already movement at site also. There are some land issues, which will be sorted out by the owners. And so far as right now, we have more of engineering activity, which is on full swing. We have a complete team deployed here as well as in the site. Looking forward, we have expansions of Panipat, of HMEL, of MRPL, work for Kochi, BPCL in Kochi. We are already working for Bina. You would have seen all the announcements, which the BPCL Chairman has made recently on the polypropylene at Kochi and for petrochemical at Bina, EIL is there. And like I mentioned, exactly what I mentioned a while back, we are there as part of the feasibility with a low value, high-end work which leads to project -- pre-project activities and projects. So we are there. Also for pipeline activity in terms of the -- both the gas and LPG, there are a lot of work which is being done in feasibility. There are some import facilities also, which are being worked on. You have also seen the statement of CEO and MD of PLL, and there also -- there are 2 projects, which he has mentioned. One is Gopalpur SSRU and as well as the PP and PDH in Dahej. EIL is there, and we are at the center stage doing the feasibility for them, and we look forward. And if you've seen the numbers of investment which we have shared, you see the volume of projects which are there for them. Besides, we are also working very closely with the other sectors, especially when we are looking at addition of petrochemicals, specialty chemicals. We are also talking to the private sector for some of the work. We are also looking at co-development of a lot of technologies with the private sector and the public sector, which will go into commercialization, which is our core. You talked of technical competence, and that is also very much focused upon. So we -- I mean, I, at the helm of affairs with my teams, see a huge opportunity, not just what I've told. There are plenty of other leads. Not only here, we've just won a small job, but a sizable volume later in Nigeria, which is again a PMC work that we had, the feasibility work. So there are certain other projects of GAIL also we are working upon. So there are plenty of work which is going on, which will convert to projects very soon.
So ma'am, when you look at and quantify in terms of numbers, one is the core petrochemical segment. What will be the pipeline look like? Maybe INR 40,000 crores kind of opportunity over a 3-year period? Or a number, if you quantify? And secondly, and the non-core segment, when you expect actual commemoration to take place and what can that part of order would be, 1-year, 2-year, 3-year perspective? Not on a short one, but in the long run, what is the expectation of strategy going forward? And lastly, ma'am, a lot of projects have been delayed. So obviously, this year also, the order inflow was subdued. We had been able to back INR 1,500 crores kind of crores of order inflow. But from a longer-run perspective, what is the run rate where we would be comfortable at, maybe INR 2,000 crores, INR 2,500 crores? So that we can get the revenue and execution pipeline going.These are my 3 questions.
Yes. Okay. So I would not be able to tell you the absolute number of volume of projects in terms of crores. I have given you sufficient number and fact -- information of the project. So if you see the announcements made, you can see, as a percentage, what kind of fees we would get.
No problem. That's fair enough, ma'am.
Yes. But in case you are talking of the -- what is a healthy order book for both sustenance and what is a healthy order book for a good CAGR. It is, again, we have -- we would like ideally to have a 65% -- 65%, 35% mix of consultancy and EPC primarily because consultancy gives us very good margins, and EPC gives us a good top line. So that's the kind of mix that would be ideal for us. For, as I mentioned before, the large part of our -- the order book is mainly in the consultancy now. So we are trying to get as much as we can also in EPC. Largely, yes, something like 2,000 plus is a good number. It's a good number. We would aspire for more, but that's a number for a reasonable growth year-on-year. Yes.
Fair enough, ma'am. And lastly, ma'am, we have not bagged any project on our EPC for quite some time now. So where we are in terms of bidding? Or are we close getting 1 or 2 projects, or what is strategy out there? And secondly, on the first question. In terms of margins, are we fixed price contracts or there's a possibility of price in there as well? Why I'm coming to this is because, any which ways we are making 2% on EBIT. So whether we can have that -- any other contract at fixed price, and we are going to take some hit on that. So clarity on that will be appreciated.
[indiscernible]
Viral, this is [indiscernible]. That mix which the ma'am has shared, it's about 65%, 35% is the ideal mix we would like to have for top line and bottom line growth on a long-term basis. As far as EPCs are concerned, wherever we take up EPC projects, you would know that because of conflict of interest, we will be forfeited from taking a [indiscernible] PMC assignment. With this kind of a margin mix, our first priority is always to go in for a consultancy assignment where we do see [indiscernible] and PMC, or we are EPCM consultants. Majority of projects, there are EPCM mode of contracting where there are no EPC contracts. So like in CPCL, some units are in EPCM, only few units are on PMC. Same in Panipat, which is a mix, same in NRL. Wherever there is an opportunity between a PMC and EPC, we will first try for PMC. Fortunately, for us in EPC mode of contracting also, we have been able to go in for costlier kind of contracts which gives you more security in terms of deviations in plant and machinery and also stability in terms of bottom line margin. So we are cutting down on our variability, stabilizing our margins and looking for a reasonable growth.
Fair enough, sir. Lastly, sir, in terms of turnkey, you rightly mentioned that -- so I'm just evaluating, is there some opportunity where we can bag some large orders in turnkey? Because this is 1 segment where we have not bagged anything for quite some time, not a large ticket size kind of order. So I just wanted to understand that.
As I shared with you, we have not done EPCs because we have PMC consultants there. For example, at Rajasthan Refinery, we cannot take any of the EPC contracts. There are about 18, 20 EPC bids which are going on, but we cannot bid because we are PMC consultants. Same will be the case in CPCL and Panipat because we are the consulters there. So our opportunity for it comes down because we are acting as a consultant in a lot of the projects, and you know our market share in India, so that's a call we have to take if we go for this kind of a margin mix.
Okay. Fair enough. Lastly, if I may add one last question, that's it from my end. When we look at -- when you look at the historical margins, I guess if FY '14, '15 it was -- '13, '14 where we used to command, 24%, 26%, kind of percent of margin. Obviously, the revenue share from consultancy was very high. If we try to mix -- change our mix from currently 50%, 55% of consultancy to 65% or 70%, can we expect our margin to bounce back significantly from 11%, 12% to maybe 18%, 19% odd percent?
It is possible. It is possible. And we are working on that end. We are trying -- we have reopened some of the divisions, which were our USP [Technical Difficulty]
Ma'am, sorry, I lost you. Hello.
Participants, it seems we have lost the line from the management team. Please stay connected while we reconnect them. Apologies for the long wait. We have the management line now reconnected. Viral, you may please continue.
Yes. Viral, I was answering your question, yes? So what we are trying to say, we have -- we have reopened some of the -- we constituted some of our USPs, some departments, which are very high-end work they do where our margins are very high. As you mentioned, in, I think '14, '15, '15, '16, our margins were high. '14, '15, we were.
'14, ma'am. FY '14 and '13 [indiscernible].
So now what really happens is that we don't kind of see that kind of growth in the top line. So on the margins, we could grow, so that's why we are saying a healthy order book of 65%, 35% kind of gives us both. Margin may not be 24%, there could be 17%, 18% or 15% or 13%, but the top line also shows growth. That's how the segments are now divided -- kind of reflect. So we will definitely -- in fact, we have already broken that barrier, those books have actually, and the objective is that they become SBUs. So once they do that, then it is more of a high-end work which recognizes both India and overseas. It's going to take some initial time to kind of get that momentum to break out and perform, so -- but we are confident EIL is moving in that direction. The management is also steering, and steering, in these kind of high-end work, which is unique to us. No one else in the country does that, so many -- very few people in the world also do that.
Yes, ma'am. I agree to that. And I think that was where we also used to command premium as well from a market cap perspective as well, right? Because people were -- really gung ho about the business and the kind of work which you do. And I guess if you could bring that, I think the market cap should come back, that is what the expectation is.Ma'am, and all the best of future, sir. Continue doing the good job, ma'am.
Next question is from the line of Sagar Gandhi from Future Generali India Life Insurance Company.
Yes, am I audible?
Yes, you are. Please go ahead.
So ma'am, my question is we have been making losses from past 3 quarters in the associate company, which is Ramagundam Fertiliser Ltd. What is our internal assessment by when it will be -- I mean, breakeven? And what is the utilization level at which this Ramagundam Fertiliser company is working? And at what utilization level will it breakeven, and it will start contributing positively to our bottom line?
So let me answer the last -- not the last, the mid-part. It's running today at about 65% capacity, and we expect the breakeven to happen even in March -- in the month of March itself, last month? 70% is the breakeven. 70% is breakeven, where it starts making money. And as I also replied earlier, it is definitely going to be positive next year, and we expect the breakpoint to happen in March itself.
Okay. So if I understand correctly, it is currently at a 55% utilization level?
60%, 65%.
65%. And in another 5%, it will start breaking even. And ma'am, at roughly, say, 80%, 85% utilization level, how much horsepower of that does that company has to make money? I mean, what is the EBITDA that company will generate?
This is under the Urea Policy of 2015, which is extended to Ramagundam also. So on a post-tax return is a sure return of 12% on the investment, on equity, so that's the kind of return we will get on our INR 491 crores once it produces. And the -- there is almost -- 60% of the demand of urea is in Telangana itself, so the market is very much there. The distribution is done by NFL. So there are logistic issues on rail. There are some issues on the rail rates, some dialogues going on that. There are some issues on the truck, and the local issues are also there, which are being resolved. And once it happens and the offtake goes up, it will get sorted and -- once -- see if you have a 60% demand in the state, then movement outside becomes lesser than required. So there are high-level meetings happening almost once a week to ease out this kind of synergy between the various agencies, various state and center and everything. So it will smoothen out very soon. As we all -- we realize today, we are producing something like 300 tonnes, INR 300 a tonne -- $300 per tonne urea, and the import is not less than 900, if I recall correctly, the number was [indiscernible]. So there is a huge push, and everybody is working, every stakeholder on RFCL is on the job. EIL, RFCL, our ministries, Railway Ministry, Telangana Government. So everybody is on the job to support them to -- for the dispatches. So that should happen very soon. Please appreciate that there is a stabilization required in particular on operating units, especially where they handle solids, like bagging and dispatching. It's more complex than the process industry like refineries which we deal with, which are stabilized so soon within a few weeks [Technical Difficulty]
Are we disconnected with the management? Hello?
It seems we have lost connection with the management again, please stay connected while we reconnect them. Participants, again, apologies for the delay in reconnecting. We have the management line now reconnected.
Yes, ma'am. Continuing with the exceptional losses question. So in last Q4 of FY '21, we had booked an exceptional loss of INR 155 crores, and that was because of probable fuel principal defaults on the investment book. So ma'am, any update there? Are any more exceptional losses coming in subsequent quarters?
Let me be honest with you. That was done in complete transparency to bring to the books, make good of the losses of the principal in the PF Trust. There are some very small investments which, if at all, go bad, will be accounted for. But let me assure and confirm that the substantial value of INR 159 crore -- INR 154 crore will nowhere be ever on the books of EIL hence forth. So it was a conscious attempt, conscious decision to make sure this was reported and closed.
Yes. But ma'am, that time it was reported, that is 80% of the...
Yes, yes. So you are aware of the market you would probably -- financial markets, you are better equipped to understand. You are knowing that we have to go by the waterfall mechanism, we have to go by the [indiscernible] class decisions and the resolution professionals decision as per the rule and the hierarchy where we sit in terms of the investments we have made. 80% was the actuarial value, which was determined. Since we have already accounted for 80%, there is already some which we have already got back. And if any, as I mentioned, and let me be very honest and straight, in case there are any closures of any investments and accounted for, which will be definitely much lower than what was done in terms of provisioning, it will be done. EIL books will be clean on this account and very transparent as have always been.
Thank you so much for the transparency that you showed.
Next question is a follow up from the line of Saket Kapoor from Kapoor Industries.
Yes, ma'am. Remember, I have not heard the cash on books figure, ma'am, if you could help me out with this here.
Batra ji?
It's around INR 1,200 crores to INR 1,300 crores. Between INR 1,200 crores to INR 1,300 crore.
Okay. And when we come to Slide #23, ma'am. If you could -- yes. Capital Investment. If you could explain, what is the message we are trying to give from Investment 1, 2 and 3 -- I think -- so you have spoken about the Ramagundam Fertiliser in total investment of equity about INR 491 crores. And now coming to this NELP Two Upstream Assets and the minority share in Numaligarh. Our Numaligarh investment is INR 700 crores, as mentioned. And this INR 16 dividend we have received for this quarter itself, is it there in the other income of INR 39 crores?
Yes, it is in the other income. Batra ji, correct?
Yes, yes, yes.
Okay. So please explain about our investment for this NELP Two Upstream Assets. What is the update on the same?
Yes. So you're quite aware that the nation needs to enhance our production of both oil and gas. And going by that, we have partnered with BPRL, and we are in consortium partners with GAIL for the 2 blocks in the upstream. There is a kind of -- there is a probable -- in one, there is a probable chance of getting that asset, realize the returns. In the other, it is likely that you may -- we may not get the price at which the recovery would come -- would be much higher than the trading price of crude. So that there are decisions being made with the consortium. Our lead partners who are actually working on the economics and working on ground will, in due course, share more information with us. But these are in the good of the nation that we need to work upon the enhancing exploration in the upstream.
Yes, ma'am, that is very true. But in a listed space, when you have other shareholders, then -- therein the commitment is more then towards the nation. It is our duty. We are taxpayers, so we are committed to the nation in that way. But if a listed company also have these kinds of commitment towards nation from listed entities, it is not giving the right message to the investing community that is -- there is no -- [Foreign Language] who will decide? It is the promoter that is the government of India. So there must be segregation between what the minority shareholders are expecting and what the government has asked the management to do.
[Foreign Language] And I do not dispute that. As a responsible, profitable corporate, we need to see business in our own money that we have, right? And I'm completely with you on it. Now, while I am with you on it, there are some things which, as a sectoral company, there are some obligations. And as and when they come, we have to evaluate. Now, these are also -- these are not processes. See, these are not investments made just by somebody's directions. These are assessments, and assessments are done with proper technical and commercial due diligence, right? So these have also been done with proper due diligence, the proper process has been followed, and the outcome is subject to the prices of crude. So it would -- and at that time, the assessment, what was done was -- had made sense, commercial sense. While we are a government organization, but let me tell you, no Board, neither ours or in other PSUs, takes any decision which is commercially not attractive. It is very rarely that we have some decision-making process which doesn't make any sense. There could be. I would not say no to it in terms of the decisions. But largely, they are all discussed, especially of commercial investments. And the logic of the investments of both at -- with BPRL or GAIL was completely due diligence was done in terms of the pricing and then only these were taken up in consortium.
Got it, ma'am. When we look at this Numaligarh Refinery investment also ma'am, our investment is to the tune of INR 700 crores. And the dividend which we have received for this, if -- I'm not aware of the financials for NRL, so excuse me on that front. So it is a 2% to 3% payout if we take on this dividend. Other than the dividend, I don't think so there would be any other mode by which we will be receiving our cash back. Until and unless they go for an IPO and we get an opportunity to dilute our stake at that point. That was the reason, yes, ma'am. So 2%, 3%...
So I would hold you -- I would hold the investors to closure of this financial year. I think it is premature to judge the percentage return on the investment just with the first interim -- declaring the first interim dividend by Numaligarh Refinery. I think I would hold -- the -- award of our judgment in this matter until the financial year closes and the final dividend is declared by Numaligarh.
Okay. Okay, ma'am, I got the message. But when we look at the 9 months versus 9 months, ma'am, December '20 and December '21. [Foreign Language] ma'am, PBT has remained flat. So how should we look at these numbers, ma'am? [Foreign Language] If I look at the top line -- look at the bottom end, it is INR 302 crores. And last year, it was for the 9 months, INR 309 crores. So is it the only COVID factor that has flattened our number and there is no growth in the bottom line?
See, there were a lot of projects which have not -- if you see the activity now, there is a lot of announcement that I just shared with you, some of the announcements made by some of the owners. So there are many more announcements which will come. See, we get businesses when there is investment and growth. So no doubt, as someone mentioned on the investments which are also business opportunities, as part of the budget. And definitely, there's a huge investment which is planned in the oil and gas itself, which is over [INR 1,11,000] crores also in infrastructure, which is huge. So we -- the cycle has to also start. Now, the investment cycle, once it goes at a swing, commensurate to that only, we will get a job. So it has not been very robust in terms of growth. We're already -- in GDP also, you'll see the reflection in some ways also comes there. In last 2 years, from March '19 to '22 -- no, not '19, '20 to '21, now '22. We are only picking up. You see the vehicle sales in last month in January. Have you seen that? The -- so it's reflective -- the growth is reflective in many elements. One of it is in these -- the sectors when we see growth in passenger vehicles or -- so the commercial vehicle sales is pretty good. So there is going to be activity, means there is going to be some -- it's -- I have seen now, year-on-year, the vehicle sale has increased by 14%, the total commercial vehicle sales. So which means to say that there is commercial activity picking up. If it picks up then the sentiment of the market is there. Sentiment to invest. There is demand, there is investments not only in our core sector, but other sectors like infrastructure and all. There is a huge push in the budget in the infrastructure also. So we are definitely going to go -- all pitch. All pitch is there, all efforts are there to garner more jobs. My single mantra to us is and to EIL and all of us is that we must get as much business as we can. Whether it is a high-end business, a consultancy business or a form of LSTK OB business. The more business we get, the more we will grow. The more our presence will be, the more we can satisfy the investor community. So our concerted effort is to garner more jobs in any and every sector, build on more clients, build on new clients, build on new geographies. These are some of the pillars that we are working on.
Ma'am, on the L1 part, can you throw some light, ma'am?
L1?
[Foreign Language]
[indiscernible] I can't share with you any bidding information. We will not be able to share with you.
No, no. I was just looking at the size of the order where we have bid and our strike rate, just to have an understanding. [Foreign Language].
It's a little sensitive, I think, to share on these elements. Vinay, we have to be -- it is difficult for us to share, right?
Kapoor ji, it is a little sensitive because it's a competitive environment, and we are bidding. The moment we are getting the job, anyway you will be hearing in the quarter.
I think we already declared in [indiscernible]
Ma'am, this Jal Se Nal project of the government. Are -- is -- are -- is Engineers India anyway participating, doing any work in this, or any pie we are garnering out of the entire project?
Which project?
The Jal Se Nal project, which is now the flagship project of the current government.
Jal Shakti.
Yes. The Jal Se Nal, Jal Shakti project, yes.
No, no. Is it Gati Shakti?
Gati Shakti, yes, ma'am. This time, it was -- it was mentioned Gati Shakti, wherein the entire gamete comes in inside Jal se Nal, yes.
I will not disclose anything on Gati Shakti right now. Yes, yes.
Things are sensitive. The moment we have something material to declare we will declare.
Yes, we will. We will -- we will share.
A small closing point from my end. Firstly, ma'am, we should try invest of our opportunity to come up with our Board meetings and all also a bit early than the back end. And our presence in the investor community should also be enhanced, ma'am. Today, I saw your interview at CNBC-AWAAZ. And there should be ways and means by which the presence of the company should be felt in the investing community so that attraction can, on a regular basis, being developed other than the con call. There should -- other mediums also, the other con calls, infrastructure calls. And many con calls happened over the period of time. So in -- whenever our company is relevant, there should be a presence from the team. So that builds base and confidence among the investor community, ma'am. These are the points I thought this medium [Foreign Language].
Take note of -- there is a concerted effort from our end to do that, and I would very much like to know the formula of enhancing our share price so that our market cap increases. And nothing more would excite me to actually make that happen as a company. So we are, as leadership, committed to it, and we definitely need your support. We need your support. We also need a feedback. And you have given very positive feedback on the perception. I mean, all of you really shared that. So I would also thank you for that.
Yes, ma'am. You should work in -- there are agencies who work for value creation ideas and as the Board hires and look forward for the deliberations, and our contributions are always, always there. But these were the points for which I thought just sharing with you. And for the ethanol story also, ma'am, any participation from -- we are -- for a setup of an ethanol plant, any engineering work or job we're doing, there's a lot of traction in the ethanol segment also all across the country.
Yes. So now I think we really need to communicate better. We are setting up the world's largest only biorefinery, which is happening today, which is ABRPL in Assam. EIL is the front runner in implementation of biorefineries, ethanol biorefineries. So I think wherever you can showcase this, quote this, we have taken a technology from a bench scale to commercial scale. And we have an agreement. We have a strategic alliance with them in terms of R&D and innovation.So I think EIL is on the frontrunner on ethanol. There is no question of us how we are there. In fact, we were the first ones to do these PFRs in 2016. So EIL, has contributed to the National Biofuel Policy. EIL has been helping to the Ministry in formulation of Pradhan Mantri Jeevan Yojana. EIL has evaluated technology, and EIL today is working for implementing engineering, PMC, project management. It's a good sizable project we are doing for ABRPL in Numaligarh. And also we have this R&D association. We are also doing DHTL feasibility for NTPC. So we are very much there. I think no other company to this extent is involved and engaged and committed to the biofuel and the ethanol projects in particular than EIL.
And what is the size of the contract, ma'am? This ABRPL?
See, the size of the contract would be something like probably around INR 100 crores.
INR 100 crores. It has touched INR 100 crores.
Now you have brought me here, let me bring another perspective. As a consultancy organization, you only -- we see only our turnover in terms of our -- the fees that we get. If you see in terms of the value of projects that we're implementing today, it is more than almost INR 2.5 lakh crore to INR 3 lakh crore project. Just think of it in the other way. You see how many lakh crore projects that EIL is implementing as a consultancy organization. And if we add that up, it will add to something like INR 2.5 crores to INR 3 lakh crores. That's the value of projects that we implement. We place something like 2,500 orders per year on various MRs and tenders. We turn around almost 6 to 7 orders per day. That's the volume of work EIL handles. So -- and it's very complex. However, our turnover as a percentage of the fee -- cost of the -- or the services that we do, and that's why the fee and the vastness of the company does not reflect as it should in the top line figures.
Okay. So by INR 100 crores, you mean our share of this business or this is the revenue we are going to get both companies?
It's the fees. It's the fees that we get. Yes.
INR 100 crores is the fees.
Yes, yes, yes...
And what is the size of business -- hello?
That project is INR 3,250 crores. INR 3,250 crores.
Yes, that's right.
Okay. And INR 100 crores is our income from the same -- providing our consultancy.
Yes, sir.
Correct. And also, are we working on any carbon capture project also, ma'am? This is also a talking point.
I cannot disclose that. It is confidential. Yes. It is confident -- I can only say we are, but it's confidential. Carbon capture is a very, very confidential area. I would not be able to share anything on that today.
Okay. Because NTPC and all have started the work on the same -- the power plant -- the old power plant for NTPC. So I thought if I could get some clarification on the sale on that.
In due course of time, we will announce.
Correct. Correct, ma'am. My first interaction with you was during the AGM and post that is the second opportunity. And I hope that our suggestions would be taken on board if they derive merit, and hope for further interactions and a long journey with this organization with the testing value still unlocked. So hope for a good times ahead, ma'am. All the best.
Thank you very much. As there are no further questions, I now hand the conference over to the management team for closing remarks. Over to you.
So as I have already in detail explained, EIL is on the growth part, both in terms of garnering businesses in the core sector. There is a strategic road map towards growth in the diversified sector as well as strategic footprint enhancing in the international territory as well. We have also reconstituted some of our USPs, some high-end technology work that we do, to garner the existing clients and build new clients. And there is expected to be a good, positive and encouraging interest from our customers, which is already felt. In terms of adjacency, we are also looking at other businesses, and we already have a foot in the door. And -- in green hydrogen, we are working extensively on biofuels in the renewable sector. So in the -- and we are also likely to play a very significant role in the transition of energy, which our core refinery sector is to meet the COP26 commitment. So going forward, we expect more orders in hand and a higher, both Consultancy and turnkey segment so that we -- the vision that we have for the company in the years to come is realized. Thank you.
Thank you very much, members of management. Ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of Batlivala & Karani Securities India Pvt. Ltd., that concludes today's conference call. Thank you all for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.