Asian Paints Ltd

NSE:ASIANPAINT

Earnings Call Analysis

Challenges in Demand and Profit Margins for Asian Paints This Quarter

Asian Paints faced a challenging quarter with a 6.7% decline in value sales and gross margins dropping by 280 basis points. Volume growth was modest at 3%, while PBDIT margins fell to 16.4%, down 530 basis points, impacted by rising employee costs and increased discounts in a competitive market. Despite lower performance, management aims to achieve EBITDA margins in the range of 18%-20% in H2. The company plans to maintain single-digit volume growth targets for the year, coupled with expectations of a 5%-6% decline in realizations. Upcoming government infrastructure spending may offer some relief in demand going forward.

Earnings Overview

In Q2 FY '25, Asian Paints experienced a challenging quarter with a significant decline in both demand and profitability. The top-line revenue showcased a degrowth of approximately 6.7%, primarily driven by a tougher competitive landscape and an unfavorable product mix. The industrial business, however, posted a more favorable performance, helping to mitigate some of the overall decline.

Financial Performance Metrics

Overall earnings showed a decline with gross margins plummeting by 280 basis points as compared to the previous year, primarily influenced by material inflation. The PBDIT margins also took a hit, decreasing by 530 basis points to reach 16.4%. Although the H1 results reflected a 5% reduction in revenue, volume growth remained steady at 3.3%. The full impact of a price increase of 1.2% undertaken in Q2 is expected to manifest in Q3.

Segment Analysis and Outlook

The decorative business witnessed a decline in market share due to intense competition, but the industrial sector delivered a promising growth rate of around 6%. With Q3 traditionally being a strong quarter due to seasonal demand (like Diwali), management remains cautiously optimistic about recovery. However, they anticipate challenges in Q3, signaling that single-digit volume growth might be a more realistic target for the year.

Key Actions and Strategic Focus

Management emphasized innovative product introductions and enhancing brand presence as crucial for improving performance. They are investing in new categories and expanding retail outreach, targeting to continue capitalizing on markets like waterproofing and modular kitchens, which have historically shown resilience.

Exceptional Items Impacting Financials

The company recorded exceptional impairment losses totaling approximately INR 200 crores, largely from the White Teak and Weatherseal segments due to performance not matching expectations. Additionally, significant Forex losses stemming from currency devaluations in Ethiopia added pressure to the consolidated financials.

Future Guidance

Looking ahead, management aims for a recovery in H2, with a maintained target for volume growth in the low to mid-single-digit range and an expected realization decline of 5% to 6%. The EBITDA margin goal for H2 remains set between 18% to 20%, contingent on maintaining stable input costs and drawing on seasonal demand strengths.

Risk Factors and Market Conditions

Overall market sentiment has been subdued, affecting consumer demand, particularly in urban areas. Retail networks are being strategically managed to prevent excess inventory that could impact retailer margins negatively. Management acknowledges the volatility of crude prices as an ongoing risk, which can influence raw material costs and, consequently, pricing strategies in the future.

Conclusion: A Mixed Yet Promising Outlook

While faced with immediate challenges in the current fiscal quarter, Asian Paints is leveraging its strategic positioning, innovative product development, and growth in industrial segments to navigate a tough market. If the anticipated seasonal pick-up materializes, the company could be well-positioned for recovery in Q4 and beyond.

Earnings Call Transcript 2025-Q2

[Sunila Martis, executive]

Good evening, all of you, and thanks so much for joining us to discuss Asian Paints Q2 FY '25 earnings. We have with -- I'm Sunila Martis from the Investor Relations team. And we have with us today Mr. Amit Syngle, our MD and CEO; Mr. R.J. Jeyamurugan, Company Secretary and CFO; and Mr. Parag Rane, AVP Finance.

I will now call Amit to give his comments.

[Amit Syngle, executive]

Hello. Good evening. Welcome to the quarter 2 earnings conference. I would start with some of the areas in terms of what as a brand we have been delivering since the last more than 8 decades. We exist to beautify, preserve, transform all spaces and objects, bringing happiness to the world, and that is something which we have been pursuing as a core value over a period of time.

This is the disclaimer. Start straight away within terms of how has been the overall performance. Obviously, we saw a real muted quarter for us in terms of the overall demand conditions, which were impacted. We kind of looked at achieving base volumes. We were just about the base in terms of the overall volume achievement in terms of what we got. But I think the effect was more at the value level where we were almost about a value negative about 6.7%.

So I think that is a big impact which came in and the larger impact was coming in as we see that compared to, obviously, the price reductions we have taken earlier, we also saw a change in terms of the mix, which -- the mix being slightly more inferior. We saw a little bit of intense competitor activity in terms of the existing competition where the discounting levels were higher. And I think all that kind of really added to kind of look at minus 6.7% growth, which we saw.

In terms of -- if you were to look at just the CAGR levels on a quarter 2 level, the CAGR's numbers are still double digit, obviously, lower than possibly the CAGR numbers we have been showing you for the earlier quarters to that extent. At an H1 level, if we look, the volumes are still at about a 3.3% kind of a growth in terms of what we see.

Given the fact that quarter 2, the value was impacted, we are at about minus 4.8% in terms of the H1 in terms of the overall value as we look at the year. So I think this has been a little bit of an exceptional quarter in terms of where we have seen these kind of degrowth happening at the top line. If you look at the Industrial business, the Industrial business has done relatively much better overall in terms of what we see in terms of the value. We see the Industrial business when it gets added on to the Decorative business, the 6.7% value comes down to about minus 5.5%. We've seen almost about a 6% kind of a growth in terms of the Industrial business, which kind of really helps us bring down the overall top line to about minus 5.5% in terms of the quarter 2.

When we look at from an H1 perspective, what you saw there, obviously, there is some effect here as well. So the H1 level, minus 3.8% is the overall value in terms of what we are delivering. The CAGRs here also is strong in terms of the double digit in terms of what you see. One of the things which is very clearly apparent is that we have seen this trend of Industrial, which is comprising of the auto, PC in marine, doing well in quarter 1 and now in quarter 2 as well. And therefore, we see one difference at an industry level that given the quantums of Industrial business contribution to our total business, this is something which is very different from the competition where the competition varies between a 20% Industrial business contribution to as high as about 40%, 45% in terms of what comes in.

So overall, if you look at from this kind of analysis, I think from a Decorative perspective, the overall industry for quarter 2 would be in the range of somewhere around minus 3% to about minus 4% in terms of what we see as the overall industry in quarter 2 in terms of what they have done. As you see, this is something which we have been showing you for the last almost 10 to 12 quarters in terms of what you have seen. I think the double-digit story in terms of the CAGR over a 5-year period has been something which has been very, very strongly intact.

Obviously, in quarter 2, this has come down. It still remains in the double digit, but it has definitely come down from literally the 14% to 15% mark and higher, which we have been kind of attaining in the past to that extent. And that is something which is now apparent from the quarter 2 growth.

So what really happened during this quarter? First of all, as I said, we've been kind of seeing a very, very weak consumer sentiment. And I think the real demand has been affected. And I think this is something which is borne by a lot of consumer industries in terms of what we have been seeing of a weaker demand, which is there. This got accentuated by the effect of extended monsoons in terms of what we have been seeing, especially in the month of August to that extent. And I think that is something we saw floods in some part of the country, and this has affected the overall demand conditions, which we have seen in the month of August and September as well to that extent.

Overall, if you were to dissect the performance, the urban centers definitely are seeing more stress in case of our business. We saw that the rural areas, to some extent, have performed relatively better. And I think that's a good news in terms of that the rural areas are recovering. And we think now with the ongoing monsoon being good, I think this should have a better effect going forward to that extent. But urban centers definitely seeing a stress. One of the other things which we saw was the seasonal markets were really impacted more in this quarter because of the demand conditions being low, and that is something which we have seen that the overall Diwali season did not kind of go the way we would have anticipated it.

Our foray in terms of the expansion continues very, very strongly, and we continue to open more retailers in terms of suburbs of urban centers and in terms of newer towns. Overall, now talking of almost about 1.67 lakh retail touch points, which is very, very strong kind of continuance of this market footprint in terms of what we see. One of the big things in terms of what we have taken is the whole area of services, as you are aware. And we have this painting service, which is called the Beautiful Homes Painting services, which has a variant, which is called the Trusted Contractor services. This continued to gain very, very big traction, and we have seen very high growth coming in terms of this service as we have seen in this quarter as well.

When we have seen the Projects/Institutional business, which is the Decorative B2B business, we have seen that this segment has done relatively better than retail. Overall, however, it has not done its usual kind of growth in terms of what we have seen, but still better than retail in terms of what we see. The factories and the Builder segment is something which registered some sort of a growth. But what we saw was that construction to that extent was a little bit slow.

Government sector was also slower. And therefore, overall growth was not to that extent in terms of what we expected. The whole innovation story has been a very strong ingredient of our story, and that is something which possibly we focused. And we see that today, the top line, 12% of the revenue contribution still comes from the new products, and this is something which we are continuing taking forward in a very strong way.

Most of the CapEx, which we had committed in terms of looking at the brownfield expansion projects is now complete. And now we are looking at all our backward integration projects, which seem to be online, whether it was the VAM-VAE, which we are doing at Dahej in Gujarat or the White Cement in Fujairah in Dubai. So I think these projects are also well on track in terms of what we see. Some of the things which we have done is given the element of a very, very strong corporate brand in terms of what Asian Paints stand for.

We got a very, very strong impetus on our corporate branding, which is the Har Ghar Kuch Kehta Hai, and that is something which we rejuvenated and got it back in a very strong manner, given the fact that the entire strength of the brand comes in from the overall corporate brand, which is Asian Paints to that extent.

And I think this is something which has been a good focus. We've got good traction from it and good recalls coming in, in terms of this classic overall ad, which we kind of revisited in terms of getting in the market. And I think this is something which has really done well for us. We have also kind of looked at innovation, first of its kind in the industry in terms of looking at regional packs what we have brought, the regional packs queue into the culture of the region, culture of that region comes in very strongly.

And these are basically packs which you can interface with -- through the QR mechanism. And this is something which we have done in Kerala, Maharashtra and Gujarat, got a very good excitement from the market in terms of what we have done. In addition, we have revamped both overall looking at the quality of our products and looking at a new packaging in terms of what has come, and this packaging spans from -- right from the Economy range to the Premium and to the Luxury range. And I think this is something which is a very critical change, which kind of ups the imagery of the brand very, very strongly and at the same time, gives it a look which is definitely upmarket.

The same changes which are done in other ranges, just to sample something for you in terms of our waterproofing range under Smartcare, where, again, we have looked at very good attractive packaging, which is there, and this is something which definitely is doing well for us. The other area which we have kind of looked at is really strengthening the proposition so that people are able to earn higher profitability. And we have looked at basically a full advanced range, which is coming where we are talking of better products in terms of higher coverage, better hiding, whiteness and other ingredients, which we have put so that the overall product is something which is very good.

This range spans out from the Real Economy segment to the Premium Luxury segment as well and is given to basically a certain qualification of the network in terms of how it serves, but it really propels the overall profitability of the network in a strong way. If you look at it, we have now added more ranges to this coming in, and this is really kind of taking in some of the critical products, which we had not attempted earlier, and this adds both at the Economy range and particularly kind of really arching the whole area of Shyne and Sheen, which has become very important for the Indian customer.

And that is something which we have kind of introduced as a new variant, which is coming in the market to kind of keep the excitement going, which is there in coming in these products. So that's something which we have brought in. But I think a very, very strong ingredient just to kind of really build the whole brand story forward. We have looked at adding quality to the existing brands, which are in the Premium and the Luxury spaces and added a story of an ingredient, which is for the first time talking of an element like graphene, PU serum and in terms of looking at nano-block coming as a story in the Premium set to that extent.

This is a new communication which we are releasing selectively now. First, we are looking at Ultima Protek, which is going to come on the screens in November. And this is something which is going to be a big story where it is not only a new packaging, but also upgraded quality, which comes at a larger warranty interface in terms of what the consumer sees. Other than that, we are launching now the world's largest repository of color. This is called Chroma Cosm, and we are offering more than 5,300 shades, a color system, which is unparalleled in terms of the world first time.

And this basically becomes a big traction at the Luxury segment as well as the AID segment, which is the Architect Interior Designers in a strong way in terms of what we want to kind of look at. We continue our innovation from the point of view of looking at some very innovative products, and we have looked at something which possibly is the first time in the world in terms of looking at waterproofing system, which is talking of almost about 25 years warranty.

This is the first time someone is introducing such a product for the terraces, very strong in terms of crack bridging durability and a strong a quoting for the future in terms of what we look at. In addition, if you remember, we had spoken of about NeoBharat with the first time going at the bottom of the pyramid and looking at something which is a great traction. We have been working around this. I think first quarter, we got a very strong result in terms of NeoBharat. In the second quarter, because of the muted demand, I think the effect was lesser, but now we are taking this again very, very strongly as we come to quarter 3.

Some of the things which we have been doing with the whole -- the painter contractor community, we have a very, very strong program, which is called the Kaamyabi Ke Rang, and we keep on recognizing people from across regions very strongly in terms of the whole area of skill upgradation in terms of what we are doing, bringing mechanization into the painting process. So these are larger initiatives as an industry leader in terms of what we have taken.

Quickly going on to the home Décor foray. You've been hearing about this, and we have kind of upped our ante in terms of really positioning the brand very strongly from a point of view of home décor. Today, as we see in terms of we are the #1 integrated home décor player with respect to looking at various categories, we are #1 in lighting. We're #1 in modular kitchens, #1 in wall coverings, #2 in fabric and furnishing. And we are looking at some collaborations, which we have done with some strong brands overall. So as I see this, while this business, again, was affected this year in terms of both quarter 1 and quarter 2 a little bit, but it did relatively better as compared to the core Coatings business overall in terms of the top line.

However, we see that as we kind of go ahead, we will have to consistently keep on looking at for the next 2, 3 years to kind of build this very strongly, which gives us a very big differentiation, something very different in terms of the positioning and really aligning the customer in a very strong way through the whole Décor life cycle in a big way.

So that's something which is the décor kind of strategy. Here, if you look at in quarter 2, both Kitchen and Bath have done relatively better as we see from the core Paint category. Kitchen, where we are #1 as the modular kitchen leaders, we've got almost a 9% kind of a growth in terms of what we have seen in quarter 2, and that is something which is very, very strong and almost about 7% in the first half.

In the Bath category, we've got a little bit lesser in quarter 2, but at a H1 level, we are still at about a 6% overall growth. Obviously, the top lines have been much better. It could have been better because I think the sentiment was not so great overall. But I think one of the challenging things has been that overall gross margins have been hit a little bit, and that has kind of really contributed to a bit of a loss, which is coming on the bottom line for both the categories.

When we look at the 2 newer categories, which we acquired 2 years back, while we are building the categories, expanding the categories at the top line level, first 2 years were very, very good, where they were at plan.

This year, while the growths are good, White Teak is at about 19%, Weatherseal is at about 13% on a quarter level. And therefore, we see on a H1 level also the growths are good, but I think the growths are a little bit lesser than what we had really planned for ourselves in terms of going ahead. And that is something which we are trying to pursue and see that as and when the sentiment improves, I think the overall growth should kind of go up to that extent in terms of what we are aiming up for both the categories, which will see us that it will give us a rejuvenation at the bottom line level in both the categories, which is currently feeling a little bit challenged from the plan in terms of what we have taken.

So that's the 4 big categories in terms of our -- the Home Décor things, some of the new things which we have introduced in terms of our [ coal ] fabrics, rugs initiatives, the wallpapers and the areas in terms of what we have brought in terms of newer furniture coverings, bed coverings and so on and so forth in terms of what we have introduced in our various categories. Coming on to -- quickly to the global business. This is where our representations are in Asia, Middle East and Africa in terms of what you see along with some of the islands.

When you look at the performance here, the performance, if you look at from a constant currency terms, was still quite good. It was almost about 8.7% in terms of what we saw. However, I think it got impacted very strongly given the fact that we saw a currency devaluation in Ethiopia, which was a big kind of an impact overall, which came in almost about a INR 56 crores impact in terms of the ForEx loss in terms of what we saw. However, if you look at in terms of the various regions, I think Middle East was the star in terms of performing with a double-digit kind of a growth in terms of what we got.

However, Asia was muted given the fact that Bangladesh was a little bit of turmoil, which we saw along with something of the weather elements also coming in, along with the problems in the country, which is going on. So Bangladesh did bring it down. However, we saw Lanka and Nepal on an improved performance relatively to that extent. Nepal, if you remember, has been struggling for the last about 2 years because of a liquidity crunch in the country. But this month -- this quarter was definitely much better as compared to the previous quarters in terms of what we have seen.

So overall, I think we've been focusing on newer categories. Waterproofing is a very strong category along with Pre/Lux emulsions, and that has been a foray across various countries in terms of what we have taken.

Industrial business, as I said earlier, we -- the both JVs did quite well in terms of top line. If you see from the point of view of PPGAP, which is the Auto OE and the refinishes kind of a business which we have, we got almost about a 6% overall growth at the quarter level and about 8% at the H1 level. Profitability has also been fairly good. We have kind of maintained stable margins and the PBT is quite high overall from this Industrial business perspective, almost to about 15.7%. In the other JV, which is about the Protective Paints business, here, we have also seen a 6% kind of a top line on the quarter.

On H1, given the fact that quarter 1 was a little bit slow, we got about a 3% growth. Profits were a little bit impacted in terms of what we saw given the tightness in the overall pricing environment, which led to a decline in terms of PBT margins from 11.3% to about 7% this year overall. But I think both businesses overall continue to do well. As I said, this overall Industrial business contributes to about 6% to 7% of our total business in contradiction to some of the other industries in the paint industry where the contributions are much higher in terms of what we have seen.

So this is something where the Industrial business lies. Just a sneak preview in terms of what's really happened on material prices. I think it's an important slide to understand in terms of what's really happened on the overall margins front, which has impacted the gross margins very strongly. If you see quarter 2 of financial year '24, we had a deflation of about almost 4%, which was there. If you look at the current quarter, we had an inflation of about 1.5%. So the combined effect of those 2 have really impacted the gross margins very strongly and therefore, impacted the PBDIT margins as well to that extent.

Overall, we've taken a price increase of 1.2% in this quarter. But I think the full realization of this price increase will come in quarter 3 in terms of really seeing the impact of this price increase coming in to that extent. So I think this is something which clearly is something which we are seeing. Obviously, going forward, we'll have to watch out, but we are expecting that there should be some deflation, but it all depends in terms of how the crude prices behave given the geopolitical situation in terms of -- which is underway.

So in summary, when we look at the stand-alone financials, obviously, there has been an impact in terms of the top line, 6% degrowth almost at volume base in terms of what we see. If you look at gross margins, obviously, there is a 280 points decline in terms of what we see over a quarter 2 of the last year in terms of what is there, given the fact that we had taken a price decrease last year also. And the product mix this year has been weaker in terms of what we have seen and the material inflation in the current year.

Similarly, the PBDIT margins have come down, and this is a concern area for us, come down to 16.4%, almost a dip of about 530 points. And this is something which has got a little bit accentuated because what we have seen is that there has been a little bit of a higher employee cost. If you remember in quarter 1, we spoke about it that we have increased our manning. But given the fact that the value growth has been lesser in quarter 2, basically, that is where the percentage of the employee cost has gone up.

Also, we've had larger kind of sales expenses in terms of the kind of discounting we have looked at given the intensity in the market, and that has kind of impacted the PBDIT margins at a quarter 2 level. If you see at an H1 level, obviously, the sales is at a degrowth of about 5% in terms of what we see, although volumes are at about 3% upwards. However, we see a similar decline in terms of the gross margins here at H1 level. And at PBDIT levels also, we see basically almost a 480 bps points, which is really kind of coming in from a larger quantum of quarter 2 as well to that extent.

So I think this is something which is what we are seeing. The good part is that in terms of the PBDIT margins, we are still in that range of about 18.5%, and this is something which we are working in terms of how do we want to take it forward in terms of the 2 quarters for the year. At the consol level, it follows a similar line given the fact that the stand-alone numbers contribute to a larger quantum of the overall business. Numbers are similar overall a 5% top line decline. There's a 260 points decline in gross margins and a similar thing in terms of PBDIT margins, which we see at quarter 2 level, and ditto in terms of what we see from an H1 perspective in terms of the overall top line and the bottom line in terms of the way it kind of looks at an overall level.

So that's the stand-alone and the consolidated, which you see. We have an exceptional item in this quarter. We had really taken White Teak and Weatherseal as the 2 businesses 2 years back. We have seen in the 2 years, I think we were able to kind of get to the planned top line numbers. However, this year has been a larger impact, while we have grown in both the segments in terms of double digits, but it is not as per the plan in terms of what we have taken. And we have also seen some erosion in terms of the bottom line. And therefore, I think we've taken an impairment, which is totaling up to almost about closer to about INR 199 crores or about INR 200 crores, which we see in terms of the overall kind of impairment.

And this is also kind of covering the fair valuation loss on the derivative contracts for future stake purchases in White Teak and Weatherseal, which are in the offering. From a consolidated financials, obviously, there is an impairment on the goodwill on consolidations on the White Teak thing, which is about INR 124 crores. So I think these are 2 this thing, but I think we are committed to the business. We know that this year has been a slowdown.

Overall, we see that this is a very important part of our overall décor offering, and that is something which we will see for the next 2 to 3 years in terms of how to build it up. From a point of view of another exceptional item is the ForEx loss in Ethiopia, where we are seeing almost about INR 56 crores kind of impact, which has come in given the significant currency devaluation, which has happened. And this is something which has affected the consolidated financials in terms of an exceptional item, which has kind of come in.

So these are the 2 areas in terms of what we have highlighted as exceptional items. We've looked at really calibrating the overall dividend for the year. We've got a dividend of about INR 4.25. This is obviously a little bit lower than what we gave as an interim dividend last year, but this is in line with the reduced profits in terms of what we are seeing in the first half of the year to that extent. And we'll see in terms of how basically the vinyl dividend accrues as we go forward.

Coming to the overall outlook in terms of the demand conditions. Right now, obviously, we have seen that we are sitting on a higher base of quarter 3 overall, given the fact that last year, there was a late Diwali and October was a full month in terms of what we got in terms of this thing. So October has been also a little bit challenging to that extent. And therefore, I think we are not seeing too much immediate recovery in quarter 3, but there is a good wedding season in the offering, and we'll have to see in terms of how the demand really goes up from the third week onwards of November as we go forward to that extent.

The good part is that we have had good monsoons, and we are also seeing government spending to go up with respect to the overall infrastructure market to that extent. And therefore, coupled with this, these 2 factors should kind of really start aiding the overall demand both in quarter 3 and quarter 4 to that extent. We continue to kind of invest in the core brand and strengthening the brand as much as we are doing in terms of taking. We spoke about bringing the core corporate positioning back very, very strongly from a communication angle.

And we think that today, I think these are very strong imperatives. But obviously, there are challenges in the market, which we need to kind of bring, but this is something which we will kind of continue to build as we go forward. Industrial business is definitely doing well overall, and we have seen this as a trend. We want to kind of increase the scale of our Industrial business, both in the Auto OE and the Protective Paint segment, and that is something which we will continue to work as we look forward.

From a global market, I think Asia and Africa are the focused markets in terms of what we are seeing in terms of what we need to do. And that is something which we are looking forward, especially the Asia market where the contribution to our business is higher is something which we are looking, and we are hoping that Bangladesh recovers a little bit to kind of give overall numbers, which are definitely strong. From a raw material point of view, as I said earlier, there is a whole element of volatility in crude.

We are anticipating maybe a part of deflation, but we'll have to keep our fingers crossed in terms of seeing what really happens with the geopolitical scenario and how the crude prices behave as we kind of move forward here. So that's the overall outlook in terms of what we look for the coming quarters going forward. Just a brief slide in terms of a very strong work, which we have been doing in the whole area of sustainability, in the whole area of looking at the whole area of governance and looking at social areas in terms of what we have put in.

Our very strong focus comes in from a point of view of freshwater replenishment, where if you look at the numbers, the numbers are very strong in terms of what we have been able to achieve in the H1 of 2025 in terms of the numbers, which you can see on the screen, which we have got.

So I think these numbers are strong on all the aspects, whether it is the hazardous waste or it is from affluent generation or even from the point of view of scope of emission reduction to that extent. I think one of the stars thing has been the renewable energy. I think that's a very, very strong component which you see in terms of which we have been able to kind of take. And that is something which is giving us a very strong kind of help in terms of looking at not only sustainability, but looking at also cost in a very strong way.

Some of the strong areas from a social perspective, health care initiatives and the whole training, which is a very, very strong imperative in terms of what we are talking. We are looking at really upping the number in a very, very strong manner where we want. We are looking at really upping the ante there in terms of the total number of trainings, which we would like to kind of do as we kind of go forward in this entire area.

So that's the whole area overall in terms of what we are taking. And finally, I think just to leave with the piece, I think we have been very strong in the street art area, and we approached this new war memorial, which is near the China border, where we did celebrate our 78th Independence Day by creating a frontier, which was very strong and really dedicated to the bravery and dedication of our armed forces.

So I think that's part of the overall kind of thing of really adding happiness to people's lives. Thank you so much.

[Sunila Martis, executive]

Thank you, Mr. Amit Syngle. Good evening to all. [Operator Instructions] We have Mr. Abneesh Roy from Nuvama.

[Abneesh Roy, analyst]

My first question is on the competitive dynamics. I understand demand is challenging. My first question is on paints and putty on the competition side. So when I compare your volume growth with the #2 player, Berger Paints, past few quarters, they seem to be growing faster by a few percentage points on both volume and value.

Is it now that they have reached a respectable critical threshold size of, say, 20% market share. So now it has become difficult for you to grow faster than them, if you could comment on that?

Second is in terms of outlook also, their commentary on H2 seems more positive. They have said that in Q3, Q4, mostly 7% to 9% or maybe 10% volume growth is possible for them. You have been more guarded in terms of comment. You have said October, some recovery is there. So if you could also comment on outlook, why there is a gap? And on putty, if you could tell quickly, have you or the other players lowered the gross margin profile to possibly even negative in Q2? And is it going to continue? Those are the quick first question.

[Amit Syngle, executive]

Okay. Great. So first of all, when you look at from a point of view of whether a certain player in the industry has got now a certain kind of share where they can feel easy to compete. What we see is possibly that if there is a movement of a particular industry by 1 to 2 percentage points overall to that extent over a period of possibly 2 years or so, I don't think so that basically affects the overall dynamics too much in terms of looking at what they can do into the market.

But what we feel is that it is also something where the intensity of competition overall has gone across. And given the fact that when demand conditions are a bit low and what we saw in quarter 2 was definitely a higher seasonal market impacts, as I said earlier, it literally definitely impinges with respect to the industry leader kind of getting impacted a little bit more to that extent.

So overall, I think the intensity of competition from the existing players, not only one of them, but a lot of them, we have seen that the intensity has gone up to that extent. And I don't think so that today, just an increase of a share that possibly gives someone more leverage in terms of really fighting out in the market because to some extent, basically, the increase is not so much that there is something which possibly affects the leader so strongly.

But yes, the competitive intensity has been fairly strong, and that is something which we have seen that we have also reacted in terms of looking at larger spends from a point of view of a sales activity to that extent.

Second, from a point of view of outlook, when we look at the overall outlook, yes, we have -- we are a little bit more cautious in terms of what we are kind of putting forward. What we are seeing definitely that given the larger impact of October, which is the longer Diwali, that was a very, very big growth last year in terms of what came in, in our overall game. We also have a higher base last year because last year, we had recorded a double-digit volume growth in terms of what had come in the previous quarter 3 of FY '24 to that extent. And therefore, we are being a little bit cautious in terms of how demand emanates because we still feel like in other consumer industries that the demand conditions would be definitely kind of challenging as we go.

There is a wedding season, which is coming, but we'll have to keep and see in terms of how really demand comes in. Having said that, definitely, we will look at seeing that we are able to get some volume growths for this quarter as well.

[Abneesh Roy, analyst]

And on putty, gross margins?

[Amit Syngle, executive]

Okay. On putty, obviously, I think the intensity again has gone up and the intensity comes in from the nonconventional paint players as well to that extent. And that is something which we are seeing where people are introducing variants. People are looking at a little bit of higher discounting. But as we see it from the point of view, yes, a little bit, it would have kind of impacted overall from the margins point of view, given the higher competitive intensity and a higher discounting we would have done. But I think on the gross margins front, we are still comfortable.

[Abneesh Roy, analyst]

One very quick follow-up on the competition in paints. So demand is challenging. Second new player has come and now almost 5, 6 months has happened. In the Diwali season, we did not see too much of competitive activity in terms of activation or advertising from them. Third is the #4 player clearly seems to be kind of exiting. Would you say that the competitive intensity could ease off at some stage, not asking for this month, next month. But logically, would you expect that?

[Amit Syngle, executive]

See, as far as -- we are not very sure in terms of what is going to happen to the fourth player in terms of what is the plan they have from a point of view of a strategic review in terms of what they have been speaking of to that extent. We see that possibly till now, as you rightly said, we have not seen any kind of disruption or any differentiation from the new players who have kind of come in.

And therefore, what we see is that there would be definitely a lot of intensity, which they will keep on putting in the market in terms of seeing whether they can really start impacting the market because there is a very clear investment they have into the market. And I'm sure we will see more action coming in the future months to that extent. So I don't think so as of now, in the medium, short term that there appears to be a very clear case in terms of the competitive intensity coming down.

[Abneesh Roy, analyst]

Sure. My second and last question would be on the consol EBITDA margins. So now if you see Trump has come in U.S. and overall geopolitical seems to be easing off, plus global, there is a slowdown. And crude and titanium dioxide seem to be in a quite comfortable range. And now that pricing also growth should come back in Q4, hopefully, operating leverage also should come back.

Is the 18% to 20% EBITDA margin in H2 possible for you? Because that has been the general guidance, which you had expected in H2, given the demand scenario, which is still challenging, but rest of the factors seem to be coming in place, 18%, 20%, will it be possible in H2?

[Amit Syngle, executive]

So if you look at H1, we've ended up at about 18.5%. So we are still within the overall guidance, which is there. The attempt is that in the coming quarter, definitely the full impact of the price increase we have taken will come in. And we are hoping that if there is definitely some stability in the crude prices and we see some amount of deflation, I think we would definitely aim that we are in that band for H2 as well as we kind of go forward.

[Sunila Martis, executive]

We have Mr. Avi Mehta joining via Zoom. [Operator Instructions].

[Avi Mehta, analyst]

This is Avi here from Macquarie. Sir, I just wanted to understand the market share aspect a little more. You pointed towards the festive being the reason for your performance being weaker than the peers this quarter. Would it be fair to -- I mean, how do you see this changing going forward? Do you expect to be ahead of the market as we go forward? And what would drive it?

[Amit Syngle, executive]

See, what I see is that when you look at the overall business, given the fact that we have a certain share in the market, what really happens when there are lower demand conditions, which we have been seeing for almost now 2 to 3 quarters, definitely, what happens is that the competitive intensity kind of goes up. And I see that if in this competitive intensity, there is a variation of share in terms of about anywhere between 1% to 1.5% kind of a thing. That is something which possibly happens all the time in terms of the larger player in the industry getting impacted.

So I think it is not only about quarter 2 in terms of what I'm referring to. It is also quarter 2, yes, it got accentuated by the seasonality, which came in to that extent. But what we are seeing is that given the fact that the demand conditions have been challenging, the impact of that band of share will always remain. You must remember that if you look at the previous 3 years, we have gained almost about 2.5% market share in the last 3 years to that extent.

So I think this amount of variation is something which possibly can be expected. We are only looking at saying that as we kind of go forward, if the demand conditions definitely improve, they come back, I think we would kind of really look at possibly working on the share back.

[Avi Mehta, analyst]

Okay, sir. So if I understand it correctly, you -- if conditions remain weak, we might continue to grow lower than the industry. Is that what you would argue?

[Amit Syngle, executive]

So again, very difficult to say because I mentioned about 2 parameters. One is the contribution of the industrial sale to the overall business. If you look at today, our contribution is about 6%, whereas in some case of competition, it goes from 20% to about 45%. So I think it also depends other than what I said earlier, in terms of how the businesses pan out till now, the trend which we have seen for the last 3 quarters, again, has been that the Industrial business has been doing much better given the fact that in terms of what we have seen both from a point of view of Protective Refinishes or the Auto business to that extent.

So if that trend continues, possibly, it will definitely impact the overall numbers a little bit as we go forward.

[Avi Mehta, analyst]

Got it, sir. And sir, the second bit is for FY '25, we had shared a focus on double-digit volume growth and a 5% to 6% realization decline. Could you update us on how should we look at these targets or expectations given what has happened in the first half?

[Amit Syngle, executive]

So if you look at H2 level, we are sitting at almost about a 3% kind of a volume growth in terms of what is there. How we see is that definitely, when we look at H2, quarter 3 is, as I said earlier, looking a little bit challenging in terms of the overall numbers. We'll have to see how it pans out. But I think overall, as we go into quarter 4, we should see definitely some improvement happening.

Based on that, I think we should kind of really maintain single-digit volume growth numbers for the year.

[Avi Mehta, analyst]

And sir, realization decline should be remain the same 5% to 6%, right? So Low single digit to mid-single digit...

[Amit Syngle, executive]

So overall, Yes. As I said that we would like to kind of stick into that band as we spoke of, we are at 18.5%, and we should kind of really try to stick into that band. Obviously, last year, given the deflation and given everything which has happened, we saw a surge with respect to the realizations in terms of what we have seen. But I think we are still aiming that we should lie in the band at the end of the year.

[Sunila Martis, executive]

We have Mr. Mihir Shah joining us via Zoom.

[Mihir Shah, analyst]

Sir, on volumes, apart from the weather conditions and weak consumer demand, higher rebates were mentioned in the release. Can you share any signs of disruption seen? And which areas did you see any or sharper competitive intensity? Was it more on product pricing, dealer margins, et cetera? Or which segment basically you're seeing that competition playing out for you?

And also, is there any structural shift in dealer margins that we should keep in mind? So that's part one.

Second thing is on volume growth on the medium term over the next 2, 3 years, what is the volume growth that one should think about for the industry? What range should we think about?

[Amit Syngle, executive]

Okay. So first of all, from a point of view of the kind of competitive intensity on happening on segments, we see it almost across segments, whether it is the area of waterproofing or it is the area of emulsions. And we are seeing it possibly across the Economy and the Premium set as well to that extent as well on ancillaries like putty and primers and so on and so forth to that extent.

However, I think if you look at it differentially, the larger, I think, play has come into the Economy segment very, very strongly, where we are seeing possibly not only the existing players, but some of the new players also kind of playing it out in a very strong manner. So I think that is one segment, which is obviously one of the largest segments where we are seeing more play, and this play is happening both at the organized and the unorganized segment to that extent.

Second, from a point of view of a structural shift in terms of dealer margins, today, I think the dealer margins are a function in terms of what are the selling rates in the market. And according to us, it's not the margin game, which is important. What is important is the ROI game. So how much are the ROI, which the dealers are kind of earning and that is a combination of 2 things. One is the margins they earn and second, how much are they able to rotate their working capital to that extent.

So on our side, we have been very strong that we want to kind of really hold the area of ROI very strongly because just margins with your capital block is not a very good idea in terms of -- from a dealer point of view. So I think that is something which will remain strong as we kind of go forward. And finally, from a point of view of future direction, from a point of view of as we see it, as you're aware, we are investing in terms of capacity increase overall to that extent.

So I think from an India's story point of view, we are still kind of very strong and hopeful. But I think we have to first really look at this year in terms of where it is going, how do we kind of really look at demand conditions panning out and then possibly take a look in terms of what would be the growth in terms of volumes, which will come for the next couple of years.

[Mihir Shah, analyst]

Got it, sir. Sir, my second question was on tinting machines. Usually, a dealer has limitation of keeping maybe 1, maybe 2 tinting machines. Can you share any market intelligence on how that is shaping up with the wake of the competition? Any reduction in dealers or shift in dealers are you seeing or are you seeing within the industry? Or any change in the tinting machine that the dealer is keeping that is being witnessed, not maybe only for you, but maybe for the industry as well?

[Amit Syngle, executive]

So I think today, the tinting machine has become a necessary ingredient of business. So very difficult for any kind of retailer to do a very strong business unless they have a tinting machine. What we are seeing definitely as a trend is that there is a multiplicity of tinting machines happening at retailer ends in terms of what is there. And today, the retailers are struggling with multiple machines which are coming to it because the newer trend, which we see with some of the competition which has come in is that these machines are given free of cost.

And given the fact that it is FOC, to that extent, they are really sent to possibly all the dealers who are there in the market to that extent. And that is what we have seen with newer competition. And given this impact, what we are seeing is that the machine requirements will always remain buoyant for the next maybe 2 to 3 years. And with newer competition coming, with more intensity coming, we will see more ingress of tinting machines happening at various counters. So I think, what will determine the success of the machine is basically how is the consumer demand going through various brands and what is basically the ROI of each machine, which is kind of coming at the counter.

[Mihir Shah, analyst]

Understood. Sir, lastly, on the business expense. So staff cost has been meaningfully stepped up across all players. Is this more a number of -- that more number of sales forces being added? Or is it an overall cost structure is going up to prevent exits? And should one see the increase in staff cost as a precursor to higher ad spends maybe in coming years? We are not seeing that into the numbers yet.

And maybe in overall to what is the kind of margin over the next few years? Maybe I heard the point that you mentioned that you'll try and maintain 18.5%. But over the next 2 to 3 years, what is the margin range that do you think that should be a fair assumption for you?

[Amit Syngle, executive]

So overall, as far as employee costs are concerned, as I mentioned in quarter 1 as well, overall, I think the numbers have gone up because we are looking at possibly in the front line, catering to our dealers very, very strongly. We are adding almost about 5,000 to 8,000 retailers easily every year. And to that extent, we require numbers to kind of really -- because given the fact that the larger model is direct to retail, we require more and more people to kind of cater to the entire dealers to that extent.

And given that, today, if you see in quarter 2, the employee costs are also looking higher given the fact that we have a depressed top line, which is not in league with in terms of what we had planned to that extent. And that is why the employee cost is looking higher in terms of what we see. But I think the moment the value growth comes in back, I think it would fall in line in terms of what we see.

In fact, the quarter 1 cost of -- absolute cost of employees is the same as what was there in quarter 2 -- quarter 1 as well. So I think that is from that point of view, it is the percentage which has kind of increased given the depressed top line, which has come in. On the second point, obviously, given the competitive intensity and whatever we have -- last year, if you see that we were almost at PBDIT levels of almost 21%, 22% and even higher to that extent, given the higher deflation also what we saw.

In this environment, today, we have seen not only an increased competitive intensity, we've also seen inflation. which has kind of come in the market. And given the product mix, which has also suffered and the top line kind of not been in line in terms of what we planned, I think it's taken a hit from that perspective. But I think the endeavor is definitely that we should kind of really keep it in that range.

[Sunila Martis, executive]

We have Mr. Jaykumar Doshi from Kotak who has joined us via Zoom.

[Jaykumar Doshi, analyst]

My question is, are you carrying out some -- are you carrying out channel inventory correction that has perhaps resulted in weaker growth relative to peers in 2Q and your caution on 3Q as well? So are you consciously reducing channel inventory?

[Amit Syngle, executive]

See, what we believe very strongly as we go forward, I mentioned about the ROI. We have to be very conscious that today, if you are pumping a larger inventory into the network, you will always land up in terms of weakening the ROI for the dealer to that extent, given the fact that the working capital will get blocked.

We are also seeing some amount of liquidity crunch, which is happening in the market to that extent. So we are very cautious in terms of what is the right inventory which should be there in the market with the dealer to that extent so that from a point of view of an ROI, we basically don't dilute that attraction of the business for the dealer to that extent. Given the fact we are seeing a little bit in terms of challenge in terms of demand conditions, we keep on calibrating the kind of inventory we need to kind of really push into the network.

So at the end of it, we are looking at that maintenance of ROI to that extent. And I think this is definitely a call which is with every competition in terms of how they see it. But for us, I think a very critical call on that inventory relationship is the ROI.

[Jaykumar Doshi, analyst]

Sure. But any color you can give on primary versus secondary sales [indiscernible]?

[Amit Syngle, executive]

As I said, we balance the primary and the secondary. The secondary has been weaker to that extent. And therefore, we are trying to calibrate the primary according to that.

[Jaykumar Doshi, analyst]

Understood. One more question. This advanced range that you talked about, what percentage of your portfolio will have advanced [ range ] what is the pricing premium advanced range would have on the regular portfolio base variant? And whether both the ranges will be available across dealer networks or you have advance will be in metros and base variant will gradually be phased out of metros. How should we think about this?

[Amit Syngle, executive]

So the advanced range is definitely a big propellant from a point of view of giving additional margins to a certain set of network. Normally, what we see is that the increased margins which come in are in the range of about 2% to 3% in terms of what we get on the advanced range for a particular dealer. This is based on a certain qualification of a retailer, which is basically open to all, and that is how basically some retailers qualify for it.

So therefore, the entire network will not get it. It is basically based on the qualification that a certain part of the network will get that advanced range to that extent. Normally, what we see is that from this advanced range is across the Economy to Premium to Luxury ranges. So it's not limited to a category or a segment to that extent.

And what we see is that basically as a contribution, we try to see that the advanced range basically comes in the range of anywhere between 15% to about 30% as we kind of go ahead in terms of that dealer's contribution in the overall products.

[Jaykumar Doshi, analyst]

Sure, what will be the price premium of advanced range versus base variant?

[Amit Syngle, executive]

Yes. I said 2% to 3% in terms of what would be the incremental margins you will get in an advanced range.

[Jaykumar Doshi, analyst]

And these will be margins for dealers?

[Amit Syngle, executive]

That's right.

[Sunila Martis, executive]

We have Mr. Aditya Soman joining us via Zoom.

[Aditya Soman, analyst]

Hi, can you hear me?

[Amit Syngle, executive]

Yes, I can.

[Aditya Soman, analyst]

Yes. So just one quick question. So with this advanced variant where you've recently launched and you're talking about a higher dealer ROI, I just wanted to understand the mechanism, how does that work for the dealer? And how would it lead to better ROI?

[Amit Syngle, executive]

So as I said, based on a certain qualification criteria, which spans across in terms of qualitative factors like customer orientation, it also spans across in terms of how the dealer is overall participating in the business, how the dealer really also supports in terms of the new products. So this is an open qualification for everyone to qualify into it. Also retailers who are supporting us in terms of the painting service in terms of what we look at. So I think these are various qualifications in terms of what we look at in terms of people taking the advanced range in terms of what is given.

This is a range which, as I said, is comparative to the mainline range, which is there, but with much better kind of operating kind of quality, which comes in both from a point of view of coverage, hiding, whiteness and so on and so forth, even the overall durability of the product to that extent. And we really look at possibly this will kind of give the retailer another additional 2% to 3% margins over the normal range to that extent. And therefore, the rotation of this, if it is equivalent to a normal kind of product which comes in, the ROI will get increased by that percentage, which kind of goes up in terms of the margin.

So that's how we are kind of looking at in terms of taking this forward. And to correct you, the advanced range was there earlier. We have now kind of really accentuated the entire range by introducing more and more kind of variants which are coming into that so that we can cover the entire range for a retailer as we kind of go forward.

[Aditya Soman, analyst]

Yes. I understand. Very clear. So I mean, just a follow-up on this. So would the price of the product also go up or it's the same price, but the dealer gets a higher incentive because they are doing more services or whatever qualify for a certain criteria?

[Amit Syngle, executive]

So the price of the product, given the fact that the quality is better, the whiteness is better, hiding is better, goes up to some extent with a small differential, which comes in to that extent because the idea is that our margins also should kind of remain intact in terms of what we see from an advanced range point of view. But basically, the proposition there is that at a slightly higher price, you are giving a product which is possibly not available across the network.

It gives the advantage to the person, and it has a higher linkage in terms of even the contractors and the attraction for the consumer to get a better quality.

[Sunila Martis, executive]

We have Mr. Shirish Pardeshi joining us via Zoom.

[Shirish Pardeshi, analyst]

Amit, just a few observations. When we look at the housing data in the Luxury and Premium segment in the metros, which has done well, while your commentary was saying that across all segments, we have seen the pain and also the Builder segment also has not done to the expectation. So just more curious because this time, you have not spoken specifically about the growth in the metros and Tier 2, Tier 3 markets because you used to always write about the growth. So I was more curious the growth versus urban versus if you strip out, what is the rural growth?

[Amit Syngle, executive]

Okay. So I covered as part of my presentation, we have seen definitely that the urban centers are little bit lagging as compared to the T3, T4 cities to that extent. I think that's a trend which we are seeing because there is a little bit of an uptick which is there from a point of view of T3, T4 cities, which we basically qualify a little bit indicative of the rural demand, which kind of really comes into that extent.

And as far as the whole B2B Project segment is concerned, as I said, it has done definitely much better than the retail segment to that extent. So whatever uptick which we see in terms of the real estate overall to that extent, I think that is something giving it that differential, which kind of comes in to that extent. But at the same time, you must also see that this time, the rainfall has been pretty irregular and in spurts and there have been floods across the country, which has really taken a little bit of a toll with respect to the whole exterior painting, which is there to that extent relative to possibly in the previous years in terms of what we have seen.

The second big impact in the B2B, which has come in is I think the government spending has been definitely a little bit muted given the fact that I think after the elections, it took some time for the government to unfold in terms of looking at all the infrastructure projects and so on and so forth. That is a big contribution in terms of our B2B sales, which comes in to that extent. That has been a little bit muted.

We are hoping for quarter 3, quarter 4 to go up. So on the whole, if you look at the metros have done a little bit lower as compared to the rural cities, T3 and T4. And especially with B2B, relatively, B2B has done better, but I think it has suffered this time because of the unseasonality, which has come in to that extent in terms of the overall rains and some of the government part of the spending, which I mentioned.

[Shirish Pardeshi, analyst]

Okay. My second question on Chroma Cosm. How this is going to work? I mean, are you going to get it through the traditional dealer network or it's a separate network, which is going to get? And maybe something more how it is going to get executed to the Builder -- the AID segment?

[Amit Syngle, executive]

So we have a certain qualification, which is there. Largely, if you see, it is the architect designer who's looking for a very large choice of shades to that extent. And as I said, this is the world's largest color ecosystem in terms of what we are introducing in the market.

We have had systems like NCS and all others operating in the market. Now this system basically opens the world for the architects, interior designers in a very, very strong fashion because it's literally that you think of a color and you we provide that color in terms of what comes in. So I think strongly in the segmentation of architects also where we see that there are the masters, there are some of the connoisseurs who are there, I think it works very, very strongly in that segmentation of the Architect Interior Designers.

As far as even retailers are concerned, some of the bigger retailers, we have a chain, which is called the Color Idea stores. We have the Beautiful Home stores. So some of those retailers which are more consumer-oriented is something which we will look at possibly giving a larger access to this new color system because we need to kind of cater to a certain consumer segment in retail who can really kind of make a better choice with respect to taking this color system as well.

So I think that is the approach we are using in terms of both from a consumer segment the architect segment and ditto with the contractor segment in terms of looking at possibly a little bit more evolved part of these 3 communities as we go ahead.

[Shirish Pardeshi, analyst]

Okay. The last on the 12% contribution from the new products. So say, for example, Ultima Protek, what we have done or NeoBharat, we have upgraded. So is it fair to assume that all the new products are actually helping in the respective segment to improve the margin profile?

[Amit Syngle, executive]

Yes. So what we see is that the idea is that in each of -- so new products fall into 2, 3 categories. One is a category like the Infinia, which I spoke of which is an absolutely new category where it is new to the world, new to India kind of a thing which comes in to that extent. So that's a new segment in terms of what we are opening and kind of getting into the market.

The other is basically a strong quality variant in terms of what we are introducing, which really helps the existing product to kind of find a larger, better acceptance from a point of view of durability imagery in terms of what we put in. So for example, an Ultima Protek, which will come in, will come with a graphene contact, which comes in, which basically offers a better warranty as well as a better performance from a consumer point of view, aided by a lot of communication, which will come in to that extent.

And for us, possibly, it might come at a slightly increase of margin or sometimes at the same margins given the fact that we have put a certain raw material cost into it to that extent. But for a retailer, it definitely becomes a source of a higher margin given the fact that it is like a new product for the retailer with a new proposition for the consumer aided by the communication.

[Sunila Martis, executive]

We have Ms. Sachi Trivedi, who has joined us via Zoom.

[Unknown Analyst]

Interesting day in the stock market. [ Never had a dull day ] Brave call. The question I have for you is new packaging, new branding looks like there's a lot of refresh that is happening. Is it to protect volumes? Or is it to grow them?

[Amit Syngle, executive]

So I think the integral part is that change is the only constant at Asian Paints in terms of what we keep on looking because we feel that a positive change is always energizing. It's something which basically triggers the market, it triggers excitement amongst the consumer. And especially, I think when you see demand, which is a little bit muted to that extent, we need to kind of really look at how we can aid upgradation of the consumer going forward. And that's something which is the key thing in terms of what we are looking.

So the upgradation is both getting the unorganized brand customer to an organized brand to that extent and also from a point of view of shifting people from an Economy to a Premium to a Luxury to that extent.

So we think that possibly these are good measures to kind of take in terms of looking at a newer packaging, a far more better imagery, which kind of comes in, newer products which are coming in to that extent, newer color systems coming in. And therefore, this is a part of our overall initiative in terms of looking at triggering more excitement and really kind of energizing the market as we kind of go ahead.

[Unknown Analyst]

Got it. Could you help me understand a little bit about the dealer discounting? And I'm always very confused with this. So if you can illustrate with an example that if last year, the product was INR 100 MRP, then what was the landed price at the dealer?

Because I believe that is what you record as your revenue. And then today, what is the MRP and what is the landed price at the dealer?

[Amit Syngle, executive]

So I think the paint market is a little bit different from a traditional FMCG kind of a business where MRP is a very strong indicator in terms of the way it works. What I think is important here is that there is a dealer price which is there, and you basically compare in terms of what is the landing for the dealer compared to that dealer price list, which is there to that extent.

So what we see overall that overall discounting, what it does is that basically it brings the landing cost of the dealer down from possibly what the dealer was getting earlier. But at the same time, what really also happens is that the selling price is also dominated by what the market is really selling. So it doesn't really mean that higher discounting means higher margins for the retailer because that selling price is relative to the entire market to that extent.

So if earlier INR 100 price was coming at INR 105, increased discounting would mean that it would land up at INR 103 to the customer now to that extent. And the customer, if he's able earlier selling at INR 110, possibly the customer might sell at INR 111 or continue to sell at INR 110 depending on what possibly the market conditions are, how the market competition is or even that market selling rate can come down to INR 108 as well.

So it could be a variant in terms of whether the margins remain the same or they increase or they even kind of reduce a little bit as they kind of go ahead.

[Unknown Analyst]

But what it means for Asian is that you, for every liter of paint that you're selling now, you're making just a little bit less money?

[Amit Syngle, executive]

So what it means is that, yes, it impacts your margins definitely if you do higher discounting. But at the same time, it is a source of incentivization for the retailer to sell more so that possibly if you are compromising in terms of a little margin, which is there, that kind of gives you a higher increased sale to that extent so that you are able to kind of balance the reduced margin from a point of view of a higher sales.

[Unknown Analyst]

Understood. Now in a separate conversation with one of your new entrants in the industry, they were targeting -- they highlighted that painter is probably the weakest link of all. So there's a customer, there's a dealer, there's yourselves and then there's a painter. And the loyalty of the painter is probably not as well established because there's a lot of churn in the painter ecosystem.

What are you doing to hang on to your painters and incentivize them to continue selling your products?

[Amit Syngle, executive]

So we strongly believe that the painter loyalty is also a combination of consumer demand because most often, if the consumer is insisting on a certain brand, the painter will not like to convert it to the extent because the consumer will start doubting the painter as to why is he converting the brand. And that holds for the dealer as well to that extent. So what we see is as a conjunction in terms of looking at both from a point of view of consumer demand as well as contractor in conjunction in terms of what we do. So I think from a consumer point of view, we are looking at bringing back the corporate branding far more strongly so that we are able to get person to buy into Asian Paints far more strongly, and that is something one imperative, which influences the contractor as well to kind of use Asian Paints.

The second thing is that we have various loyalty programs for our contractors, which are divided into various kind of incentivization. And the loyalty kind of pans out to even giving higher business to the contractor as it kind of goes ahead because we believe that a higher business to a contractor earns you more loyalty than just a per liter rebate, which anyone can match to that extent.

The second area, what we keep on looking at is enhancing the quality which you give to the painter, so the painter basically is confident of using the product very strongly as we kind of go ahead. And third is the proposition, which can be different from what possibly a competition would kind of give to the contractor to that extent.

So I think we use a multitude of triggers to kind of really get the contractor loyalty aided by a very, very strong consumer kind of demand pool, which kind of comes in.

[Unknown Analyst]

Got it. Understood. And just one final question. Given all the steps that you have taken in completely revamping sort of your product profile, packaging, corporate branding, increased reach and product innovation...

[Sunila Martis, executive]

I'm sorry to cut you ma'am. But due to time constraints, we won't be able to take further questions.

[Unknown Analyst]

It's up to Amit sir.

[Amit Syngle, executive]

Okay. quickly, can you just...

[Unknown Analyst]

I'll qucikly -- so if the demand does come through, whenever the demand does come through, are you actually hoping -- are you set up for a very massive acceleration?

[Amit Syngle, executive]

So I think very difficult to answer that question because it's a question of how demand comes in at what level it comes in to that extent. But what we are very sure is that all these initiatives definitely kind of impress on the consumer, the contractor, the dealer to kind of sell more of you to that extent and because the entire crux of the market is to kind of get more excitement so that they are able to kind of really convert that into a stronger demand.

[Sunila Martis, executive]

Thank you, everyone, for joining in today. I now request Mr. Amit Syngle to give the closing remarks.

[Amit Syngle, executive]

So thank you, everyone, for coming for the quarter 2 earnings conference today. And I think it was great speaking to all of you. We are looking forward to a better quarter that we can meet you next with and kind of really sit down and take your questions on. Thank you.