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Ashoka Buildcon Ltd
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Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to the Ashoka Buildcon 4Q and FY'24 Conference Call hosted by PhillipCapital India Private Limited. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded.
This conference call may contain forward-looking statements about the company, which are based on the beliefs, opinions and expectations of the company as on date of this call. These statements are not the guarantees of future performance and involve risks and uncertainties that are difficult to predict. And a disclaimer to this effect has been included in the financial results and investor presentation, which has been shared with you earlier and available on the stock exchange website.
I now hand the conference over to Mr. Vikram Vilas Suryavanshi from PhillipCapital India Private Limited. Thank you and over to you, sir.
Thank you, Sagar. Good afternoon and very warm welcome to everyone. Thank you for being on the call of Ashoka Buildcon Limited. We are happy to have the management with us here today for question-and-answer session with the investment community. Management is represented by Mr. Satish Parakh Managing Director; and Mr. Paresh Mehta, Chief Financial Officer. Before we start with the question-and-answer session, we'll have opening comments from the management. I will hand over the call to Mr. Satish Parakh for opening comments. Over to you, sir.
Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Vikram. Good afternoon, everyone. Hope everyone is doing well. On behalf of Ashoka Buildcon Limited, I extend a warm welcome to everyone joining us today to discuss our business and financial results for the quarter and full year ended 31st March, 2024. On this call, we are joined by Mr. Paresh Mehta, our Chief Financial Officer; and SGA, our Investor Relations adviser.
Let me begin by giving few relevant industry highlights. During '23-'24, highway construction reached 12,349 kilometers, marking a notable 20% increase from '22-'23. Although it's well short of annual target of 13,814 kilometers, the majority of the construction totaling to 9,642 kilometers involved lane augmentation, while 2,707 kilometers, was attributed to strengthening existing infrastructure. NHAI constructed 6,044 -- 6,644 kilometers with the remaining being constructed by other agencies, including NHIDCL and MoRTH.
Despite a sluggish start in awarding highway projects, with only 4,872 kilometers awarded till Feb 2024, the pace picked up in March 2024, resulting in total of 8,551 kilometers awarded in '23-'24. The ministry has spent around almost 100% of its revised capital expenditure allocation of INR 2,645 billion. Industry Research report predicts 5% to 8% increase in road construction for the year '25 -- '24-'25 estimating that approximately 13,000 kilometers of roads will be built. This growth is attributed to numerous projects in pipeline, increased government funding and the Ministry of Road Transport and Highways prioritizing the project completion.
Construction activities are expected to accelerate after second quarter following a typical slowdown during the monsoon season. The MoRTH has unveiled an ambitious 100-day roadmap to operationalize 700 kilometers of high-speed corridors, award 3,000 kilometers of highway projects and implement a cashless treatment scheme for accident victims. The centre is working large-scale cabinet proposal worth [ INR 20 trillion ] to sanction highway works aligned with Vision 2047. And this is pending cabinet approval. MoRTH aims to construct around 1,700 kilometers of highways in first few months post elections.
Additionally, MoRTH plans to address black spots with historically higher road traffic collisions on national highways. MoRTH has already spent around INR 54,500 crores on highway construction in April, May 2024, which is 20% of total allocated CapEx for the year. Despite slow project awarding in second half of 2023, the ministry has continued its focus on project execution with construction of 483 kilometers during this month, ahead of general elections compared to 523 kilometers during the same period last year.
Now on project front. Firstly, Ashoka Buildcon Limited has successfully concluded a sale of Unison Enviro Private Limited to Mahanagar Gas Limited. The deal has been closed at final equity consideration of INR 562.09 crores, out of which the company has received INR 286.67 crores for its 51% stake. In January 2024 company has received a letter of acceptance from CIDCO for design and construction of stilt bridge of Eastern connectivity for Navi Mumbai International Airport, this is in joint venture with Ashoka having 51% share of INR 339.9 crores. Also company has received Letter of Award for 6 laning of Aurangabad, Bihar-Jharkhand project section of NH 2 in the state of Bihar on EPC mode for a total of INR 520 crores.
Additionally on current projects, company has received provisional completion certificate for NHAI projects in the quarter. First one is 6 laning of Belgaum-Khanapur section of NH-4A for a stretch of 4.415 kilometers in addition to existing 16.345 kilometers. And also on 4 laning of NH-161 from Kandi to Ramsanpalle for [ 1.28 kilometers ] in addition to the stretch of 37.92 kilometers. Regarding the HAM projects of NHAI that is 8 lane Vadodara-Kim Expressway, company has received completion certificate in April 2024.
The respective SPV has been receiving annuity amount of (sic) [ for ] 11.25 kilometers from NHAI. On asset monetization, Ashoka Buildcon Limited has acquired 50% fully paid shares from GVR Infra projects held in GVR Ashoka Chennai ORR Limited, a subsidiary of company subsequently. Chennai ORR Limited now has become a wholly owned subsidiary of the company post acquisition of these shares. The company and its subsidiary Ashoka Concessions Limited are making progress towards divestment of this entire stake in specific subsidiaries that are awarded by NHAI for the construction and operation of the roads projects on the HAM basis. Considering the high likelihood that the sale will be finalized within the following 12 months, these completed project assets and liabilities continue to be classified as assets held for sale.
Now coming to the order book. As on 31st March 2024, our balance order book stands at INR 11,697 crores. The breakup of order is the roads and railways projects are INR 6,214 crores, which is 53% of the total order book. Among the road projects, HAM projects are to the tune of INR 911 crores. And EPC road projects are INR 4,426 crores and railway is around INR 877 crores. Power T&D is in tune of INR 4,796 crores, which is approximately 41% of the total order book. The total EPC building segment is INR 687 crores, which is 6% of the order book. Here, I would like to reiterate that our primary focus remains on maintaining a sustainable EPC business in segments encompassing highways, railways, power transmission and distribution as well as buildings.
This is all from my side. I would now request Mr. Paresh Mehta to present the financial performance. Thank you.
Can you hear me?
Yes, sir.
Thank you, sir. Good afternoon to everyone and all, results and investors presentation and the press release have been uploaded on the stock exchanges and the company website. I'm sure you must have had time to go through it. I'll present the financial results of the quarter end of -- full year ended 31st March 2024. The total income for Q4 FY'24 stood at INR 2,533 crores as compared to INR 2,068 crores in the corresponding quarter last year, registering a growth of 22%.
EBITDA for the quarter stood at INR 219 crores with EBITDA margin of 8.6%. The reported profit before tax, excluding exceptional gains, stood at INR 126 crores and PAT, including exceptional gains, at INR 269 crores. Our revenue contribution for each segment for FY'24 is as follows: Road EPC contributed 53%; Power EPC contributed 29%; Railways stood at 12%; and other segments like Building EPC and others contributed 6%.
Now for FY'24, the total income stood at INR 7,841 crores as compared to INR 6,478 crores in the corresponding period last year, registering a growth of 21%. EBITDA for the period stood at INR 691 crores with an EBITDA margin of 8.8%. The reported PBT, excluding exceptional gains, stood at INR 358 crores; and PAT, including exceptional gains, at INR 443 crores. Exceptional gains in FY'24 is on account of gain on sale of UEPL, that is Unison Enviro Private Limited, our CGD business. And in FY'23, is on account of reversal of impairment of its investment loans in its subsidiaries, including Ashoka Concessions Limited and impairment of investment loans in subsidiaries, including Ashoka Concessions Limited. Our revenue contribution for each segment for FY'24, is as follows: Road EPC contributed 60%; Power EPC contributed 25%; Railways stood at 10% and other segments like building and other contributed to 6%.
Our stand-alone debt-to-equity ratio stood at 0.38x of -- as of 31st March 2024. Coming to the consolidated results. The total income for Q4 FY'24 grew by 27% year-on-year to INR 3,138 crores as compared to INR 2,478 crores in Q3 FY'23. EBITDA stood at INR 721 crores for Q4 FY'24, with a margin of 23%. Reported profit after tax stood at INR 254 crores in Q4 FY'24. For FY'24 full year, the total income stood at INR 10,005 crores as compared to INR 8,235 crores in the corresponding period last year -- for the last year, registering a growth of 21%. EBITDA for the period stood at INR 2,458 crores with an EBITDA margin of 24.6%. The reported PBT, excluding exceptional gains, stood at INR 763 crores and PAT at INR 521 crores.
Total consolidated debt as on 31st March 2024 stood at INR 7,139 crores. The stand-alone debt is at INR 1,143 crores and comprises of INR 123 crores of equipment and term loan and INR 1,020 crores of working capital loan. Towards our BOT business. During Q4 FY'24, it recorded a gross toll collection of INR 329 crores as against INR 300 crores in Q4 FY'23, recording a growth of 9.8%. Whereas in FY'24, it recorded a gross total collection of INR 1,247 crores as against INR 1,117 crores in FY'23, recording a growth of 11.7%.
To bring a significant impact in the consolidated results of the company, we have reclassified our BOT assets, which were till '23 held as asset held for sale to investment after taking the effects of the sale purchase agreement yet to be signed and other compliances yet to be pending and expectation of the time completed for the projects. We continue to pursue the process of disposal of the stakes in all these subsidiaries, including the HAM projects.
With this, we now open the floor for the question and answer. Thank you.
[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of [ Gaurika Nair from Avendus Spark. ]
Could you give me your order inflow for FY'24?
For FY'24, total order intake...
Sorry to interrupt. Sir, you're sounding a distant.
One second. Yes. The total order for FY'24 intake was INR 1,953 crores.
Okay. And what would be your future guidance on it and the revenue that will be coming in for FY'25?
See, for '25, we're targeting around INR 12,000 crores to INR 15,000 crores of order book.
For '25. And also, could you repeat you part -- your bit on asset monetization since your voice cracked [indiscernible]
So just to summarize, we have 11 HAM projects, 6 BOT projects and 1 annuity projects, which are to be monetized. For the 11 HAM projects and for the 5 BOT projects, we are in the process of finalizing the share purchase agreement with the potential investors and we are very close to signing of the SPA in the near future. For the 1 BOT project that is Jaora-Nayagaon and Chennai ORR, in Chennai ORR we have already acquired stakes of GVR Infra, our partner in the project. So now we will be in a better position to negotiate with the existing offer which we had received as well as with the investors to sell the project in this coming year. And equally, we await permissions from MPRDC for transfer of 26% and then we'll be able to sell the Jaora-Nayagaon project too.
[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Shyam Garg from Ladderup Finance Limited.
And congratulations on a good set of numbers. My first question is with respect to the what is the peak debt of this year and how we are planning to reduce it?
I didn't get, what was the question?
Mr. Garg, sorry to interrupt, you are sounding muffled. May we request you to use handset in case if you're using the speaker mode, please?
Is it better now?
Slightly better, sir.
My first question is with respect to what would be our peak debt for FY'25? And how are we planning to reduce it in the FY'25 or in coming years? Any guidance on that?
Yes. So our debt at ABL stand-alone, which is for working capital, would be almost in the same range based on the increased turnover, which we'll have for FY'24-'25. We expect on monetization of assets, this debt could go down as and when the assets are monetized.
On that, sir, if you can specify any amount or in a range?
So it will depend on the asset monetization. We have 5 BOT assets and others. So if we just make up thumb rule for what we would use the money -- part of the money to reduce debt, we may use -- we try to reduce working capital debt to 50% of what we utilize today. Balance money for monetization, we use for various other applications.
The next question is from the line of Parikshit Kandpal from HDFC Securities.
First question is on the margins. I see you had in earlier quarter highlighted your journey towards reaching high single-digit margin, potentially double-digit margin by the end of Q4 FY'24 is still at just about 7%. So if you can give some more color on what went wrong in this quarter? Why we're not able to achieve high single-digit margin and then journey towards double-digit margin.
Yes. I think so our guidance in Q3 FY'24 accounts was typically that the margins would go up in '24-'25 post Q2. So these numbers should be in the similar range up to Q2 and then they will jump up based on the execution for the new contracts and the contracts which you already have, which are of better margins and will pick up in H2 FY'25.
But sir, we barely had INR 2,000 crores of inflows in FY'24 and so large part of revenues, which will accrue in FY'25 will accrue from the legacy book because ordering is expected to pick up only from second half. So what gives you the confidence that the margins will improve because the projects won, new projects won will still not have contribution to the revenues in second half of next year. So first, if you can quantify what is your guidance given we have a very lower number on book-to-bill, which is almost INR 12,000 crores of order book and close to about INR 7,500 crores of revenue. So how do you see the guidance for next year in terms of revenue growth? And within that, how do you think the -- whether the margins can reach double-digit starting Q3 FY'25?
Yes. So just to give a feel of the numbers which have spanned out from execution, the major execution where the low margins were there have typically come to an end. So by Q1 FY'25, most of the projects will get over. The larger margin projects have just begun up -- have taken off in last year. And they will contribute to major turnover in Q3, Q4 and that will result in increase in the margins by at least 1.5% around initially. And then the new projects may contribute more. The new projects are yet to be won, which will contribute more. On the order book, we have an order book backlog of INR 11,700 crores, which is approximately 1.4x of -- which is lower than our expectations, which is already explained due to low bidding in various sectors, especially post January in the election phase. So we believe that post June, there should be a flurry of biddings happening and we can ramp up our order book during this next Q2 and further on.
But then this -- why didn't participate in the MSRDC tenders, it just opened, I think, couple of days back. So we were not present in even multi-modal logistics -- sorry multi-model packages and even on express ways, so we were not -- just any issue whether we would qualify or not qualify and why didn't we participate in those tenders?
No, we have participated in MSRDC tenders, which have been bidded in this month. So participated in 4 MSRDC tenders, which will be opened subsequently by June end or July.
[indiscernible] the earlier ones I'm talking about, the 126 packages which got opened and 11 packages on MMC. So we had not participated. Any reason why such a large ordering we let it go without any participation? So are we qualified? Where we qualified, was there any constraints on technical grounds, we're not able to do it? Or is it just that a call we took that we will not bid for these projects?
Well, we have taken a call earlier that we'll not be bidding for state government projects. But lately, we have revised that and now we are bidding for that.
Okay. And just a guidance on margins. And I think that was my question which I asked, for next year FY'25, how do you see as a full year, what kind of margins we are looking at for FY'25 and FY'26?
For FY'25, we should be back around 9%, 9.5% -- 9.5% of EBITDA margins, slightly better than that. And then in FY'25-'26, definitely, it should be in the range of 11%, 11.5%.
And when you give this guidance, you will include other income also in this, right?
No, these are EBITDA models.
Excluding. And just the last question on monetization. So now we had a pipe -- I mean, we had 2 projects, Jaora and Chennai ORR, where we have now, Chennai, we have some movement, we bought out the partner. So these 2 -- so projects, I think they had maybe a deadline where the -- I mean, this contract or this agreement was there to monetize. So has that decline mutually extended? Or has it lapsed with the investor? That was my question on those 2 projects. And on the HAM, we have been talking about for, I think last 2, 3 quarters that it's going to happen, happen, happen and somehow for one reason or the other it has not happened. So where is it now stuck at? I mean, last call, you highlighted that all approvals are in place. So now what are you waiting for announcing these SPA? Because every call we say SPA is in the final stages of conclusion but it's not happened. So if we can give more realistic guidelines where you think the SPAs will get signed.
Yes. So we agree that we have been pursuing the SPA for the HAM and the BOT projects in the past 3 quarters and -- which has a bit -- it has been a bit sticky on negotiating and closing. But now we are at the fag end of -- most of the issues have been sorted out. And we are in the process of handing out the total agreement post all commercial issues having been settled. As far as the Chennai ORR and Jaora-Nayagaon projects is concerned, their date of SPAs have lapsed some time back and we will at appropriate time once we get permission in Jaora-Nayagaon from MPRDC and for Chennai ORR, we will engage again with these parties for -- because their offers were outdated a bit, that's why we need to renegotiate on a price basis.
But the exclusivity has gone. And I mean, we may -- the same investor may not, the NIIF may not be -- I mean he has every right not to proceed with this because I think they are themselves selling out their portfolio to some other -- their assets are on block, so.
Right, right. But that's also in a churning mode, one. And definitely a project like Jaora-Nayagaon or Chennai ORR, good projects for them to buy. They are buying also and they're selling also. So from that perspective, they continue to engage with us to do, if possible, the deal. It will all depend on us, both of us to strike a proper price again to do the deal.
And this HAM, whether in June that will get closed or it will now move to the second quarter, like by September. So what is more realistic time line of closing and signing of SPAs for the HAM portfolio?
SPAs should be signed before June -- by June.
The next question is from the line of Prem Khurana from Anand Rathi Shares and Stock Broker.
So just to continue on asset monetization. So I mean, you briefly touched upon this thing in your opening remarks where you spoke about the 5 BOT tolls, which you were earlier supposed to sell to KKR. So when I look in the notes to, or [indiscernible] given in your release today, it seems as if I mean we had a prospective buyer in place and you had already offered the buyer exclusivity and which expired on 31st March 2024. So was it -- I mean, does it mean that you would have to start the process again, I mean would be required to kind of offer exclusivity to someone else now. And then the due diligence would start and that could take some more time. I was wondering why did we declassify. I mean, initially they were classified as assets held for sale, KKR's agreement got terminated in the month of May. So I mean -- but we still continue to show these as held for sale and now we've demoted at this point in time, so.
So on the BOT assets, we had an SPA which got terminated, as you said, rightly. Post that, we engage with another potential investors with whom we are already negotiating for closing an SPA. The exclusivity period expired, no doubt but we continue to engage between ourselves and we expect to close the SPA at earliest. Keeping in mind the time taken for NOCs, permissions and other assessment as of 31st March '24 and based on the guidance as per Ind AS 105, we classified it as -- we changed the classification from asset held for sale to investments. As soon as we see clear visibility of the transaction happening in -- once we sign the SPA and certain CPs to the transition, like consent from lenders and authority are visible, we'll reclassify. But classification is definitely an accounting aspect of the thing. As of -- in the business perspective, we are continuing to seriously engage with the potential buyer to sell the assets.
Sure. But I mean, would you be able to kind of share why is it taking so long? Because I mean we would have done all this exercise even when we were kind of trying to sell it to KKR, so the lenders would have been onboard. You would have somehow made sure that you get to have NOCs from NHAI at least, I mean, in principle, they would have given you some good I mean, there was only, I think Dhankuni- Kharagpur wherein you're waiting for that 2-year clause to, so why -- I mean, given the fact that we were [indiscernible] these things long back, why are they taking so long now? I mean the CPs that you need to comply are the same CPs, right, that you would have kind of dealt with when you are dealing with KKR.
Correct. So this investor is a different investor, one. Definitely, when we go back to NHAI, though I do agree that in principle clearance was received for 3 assets then out of 5 and 2 were almost on the process of getting done but there are certain conditions which -- where it got delayed, which now is out of issue. But whatever time for in principle clearance also will take some time. We will target ourselves to get the deal as soon as possible maybe by December '24. But based on past experience and on discussions with auditors, we decided to classify as investments. We will revisit the clause at the proper time again to reclassify. Reclassification will not change -- or the intention of the company -- to change the intention to sell the assets as early.
Sure. And would you be able to comment on the valuation? I mean, fair to assume, given the fact that the traffic numbers have been pretty decent in the recent past, the valuation would have firmed up for these 5, as well as, I mean, whenever you negotiate with, let's say, either NIIF or some other player for the -- for Jaora-Nayagaon, I mean there -- how do you see the valuation to be now?
Yes. So in all the BOT projects, we definitely see a uptick in the valuation. As soon as we sign the SPA, definitely, we'll be able to disclose all that, which would be definitely a better one than what was previous.
Sure. And sir, I mean just I mean bookkeeping sort of questions. So what's the revenue growth that we're targeting this year given the sort of order backlog that we have and the fact that it is still some time before the orders would start coming. This is on a stand-alone basis. Now what sort of revenue do we target for this year now?
So we expect to grow by around 15% for '24-'25 on the EPC.
Okay. So this is on a base of [ INR 7,700 crores ] that we've delivered, this year saying 15% more?
Right.
Okay. And sorry, I missed the inflow guidance. I mean I think Satish sir gave that number. Somehow I missed the number and would you be able to kind of share that number again please?
Which number?
Inflow guidance, order inflow for FY '25?
So we are targeting around INR 12,000 crores to INR 15,000 crores of inflow because there will be a good aggressive orders coming from states as well as centre, post elections.
But sir, I think last time we spoke, I mean, you seem to be little skeptical, I mean, in terms of whether we get to have the awarding kind of pick up immediately after election, which is where I think your guidance seem as that you're building in some sort of caution and now the guidance seems to be very, very optimistic. So has anything changed somewhere which is what makes you confident that you'd be able to have this INR 12,000 crores -- INR 15,000 crores of number or is it only because now you also started looking at the state orders, which is what is giving you confidence that if it's not NHAI, you could have orders from states.
Now we've become a all-round EPC player like in roads, railways, power, buildings, water. So all segments are open. So our bidding pipeline is also bigger than what it used to be earlier.
Sure. And just 2 more with your permission, please. So one is, how much is the pending equity infusion for hybrids? And second would be -- so the Chennai stake that we acquired, the payment was made during the quarter, right, entire INR 185 crores?
Yes, the payment for Chennai Outer Ring Road project was made before March end. So it is already coming in the books as a investment. As far as balance equity commitment for our HAM projects, is approximately INR 153 crores.
And this would be infused in this year itself?
Yes, '24-'25 itself.
The next question is from the line of Mrunal Shah from Axanoun Investment Management.
Sir, my question was how much percentage of the cost is attributable to bitumen total cost of the road, an approximate range?
Could not follow. Could you be clearer?
Sir, my question was how much percentage of the cost is attributable to bitumen, of the total cost of making roads, an approximate range?
20% to 30%, depending upon the composition.
Okay. And usually, what are the payment terms for bitumen payment?
I didn't follow the question here, please.
What are the usual payment terms for bitumen payment?
Bitumen payment is bought from refineries. Bitumen is particularly bought from refineries, so it's on -- against cash only.
Okay. And sir, what proportion is the -- what proportion of asphalt road and concrete road for highways and express highways for which government tenders are being floated by to the government? So, I wanted to, you know, ask the bifurcation between bitumen roads and asphalt roads for highways?
So there is no specific rule which highway will come on rigid pavement like concrete pavement or bituminous pavement.
Sir, generally what is our...
Definitely, if you see, a majority of the highways, 90% of them are bituminous roads.
The next question is from the line of Deepak Poddar from Sapphire Capital.
Just first up, I just wanted to understand, have we given this data, I mean, from this demonetization or I mean monetization of our 11 HAM projects and 6 BOT projects. So what sort of capital inflow or capital release that we expect from this?
As of now, we have not communicated anything to the exchanges. Once we are through with our definitive documents, we would be able to declare this thing.
And this inflow, we expect to repay some debt as well apart from you're using it in working capital and other application?
So that is -- I mean, working capital debt is the major debt, which is other than the project debt. So otherwise, the project debt should go along with the projects to the new buyer. So most of the project debt will move out of the consolidated company.
Okay. And at the stand-alone level, any sort of repayment that we expect -- can we expect at the stand-alone level?
Yes, depending on monetization, we will typically try to reduce by -- the working capital debt by 50%.
By 50% debt. So currently, which is about close to about INR 900 crores -- INR 1,000 crores, right?
Correct, correct, correct.
So that may reduce by INR 400 crores to INR 500 crores.
Correct, correct..
So how do we see the absolute interest cost? I mean, in the last year, I think in the stand-alone level, we were at about INR 230 crores, round about. So how do we see that interest cost in FY'25?
So this would typically -- so there are 2 components to the interest cost. One is interest on our working capital loan and also interest on mobilization advance. We have mobilization advance of almost INR 800 crores, which also carries interest cost. So the reduction will typically be in the working capital utilization decrease which would be in the range of a cost of 10% for whatever decrease and for whatever period.
Okay. And can you have -- as a breakup, I mean, out of this INR 230 crores, what is the interest component from mobilization advance?
So yes, I can give that. So on our cash credit and working capital demand loans which we have, that is approximately INR 45 crores, INR 50 crores. And on our mobilization advance is around INR 33 crores -- sorry, my error. On mobilization advance is around INR 70 crores and cash credit and administrative is approximately around another INR 70 crores. And balance and other miscellaneous loans on equipment loan and other loans.
Okay. So ideally, this mobilization advance and cash credit component of interest cost will not reduce, right? Only that INR 45 crores, INR 50 crores, that is liable to reduce based on your repayment.
Loan. Yes. That would...
That is about INR 45 crores to INR 50 crores, right?
So that is approximately INR 65 crores, including WCDL. Yes.
The next question is from the line of [ Pari D J from GoIndia ].
So can you just give me a guidance, you've given the guidance for EBITDA and revenue. Can you just give me a guidance for PAT, please?
As far as PAT is concerned, it's all a mix of how the profits will pan out depending on the EBITDA margins, we should be in the range of 5% to 6% for PAT.
Also, sir, when we see the order book breakdown that you have, in FY'23 you have CGD of INR 31 crores. You don't have that in FY'24. Can you just give me a clarity on it?
CGD business was our in-house captive EPC business till we were owning the CGD business in the form of Unison Enviro Private Limited, which we sold off to Mahanagar Gas Limited in last quarter, that is Q4 '24. So now the asset being -- asset having changed hands from us to MGL, the order book -- we have completed whatever was there in our scope till then. Now it is -- the MGL will decide to do whatever work that is there in that business. So we don't now do any CGD business as of now.
Also, sir, I missed out on the part that you gave then, order intake for FY'23. Can you just repeat the number, please?
Yes. So for FY'23 the...
Sorry FY'24, sir.
'24 inflow, we expect around INR 12,000 crores to INR 15,000 crores.
Sir, you said that for '25, right?
'25. '24, we got only INR 2,000 crores.
The next question is from the line of Vaibhav Shah from JM Financial Limited.
Sir, you mentioned the pending equity at INR 150-odd crores to be increased in FY'25. But if you look at the presentation for the HAM slide, over there it is mentioned that INR 1,012 crores already invested and total required is INR 1,097 crores. So it comes out around INR 85 crores incremental. So how does INR 150 crores number has been arrived?
So INR 1,097 crores is based on the -- it is as per financial closure document. There are certain increase in project costs due to PIM where equity has to be also put in by the SPV, a part comes from grant, there's no loan on that. So the equity component slightly increases.
Currently now, we require around INR 150-odd crores. So increment around INR 60 crores, INR 70-odd crores.
Yes. INR 150-odd crores total.
Sir, secondly, the gain which you have booked in Q4 of INR 217 crores. So what would be the tax component out of that?
Approximately INR 40 crores.
Okay. And sir, what would be our CapEx guidance for FY'25?
CapEx guidance would be approximately INR 110 crores -- INR 100 crores to INR 110 crores.
Okay. Sir, in FY'24, what funding did we do for -- loss funding for Sambalpur? And what do we [indiscernible] for FY'25?
Sambalpur, we did not do much loss funding because it was refinanced in June '23. So now it is self-sustaining. It is taking care of its own cash flows.
Okay. And sir, we target to monetize Chennai ORR and Jaora-Nayagaon within FY'25? Or if that'll spillover to FY'26?
So for Chennai ORR, definitely it is possible. For Jaora-Nayagaon it is just depend on how there is -- at the moment we get clearance for MPRDC for logged-in shares of 26%.
Post the clearance we will look for the buyer or the talks are already going on with the potential...
So we will always reengage with the previous offer, but we will -- and then we'll see whether we need to get to another potential buyer.
Okay. Sir, lastly, what is the status of the water treatment order, the Mumbai one, or has the execution started?
Yes. Execution on this has started. Civil works have already started and electromechanical will start from the third quarter, Q3 of this year.
And sir, what kind of revenue can we book from the order for FY '25 and '26?
Should be able to book around INR 400 crores.
Combined for '25, '26?
INR 400 crores in '24, '25.
Okay. And sir, outstanding book would be somewhere around INR 550-odd crores for that order?
This total order is INR 750 crores. So entire balance will be completing in this year.
The next question is from the line of Vasudev from Nuvama.
Yes, sir, I just have 1 question, which is on the bid pipeline side. So you said that our bid pipeline is now bigger than earlier. So now will you be able to quantify it? And if you can give the split across various segments that you are planning to bid?
So segment-wise, sir, road is your primary segment, road and bridges, then power distribution and transmission are the other segments. Solar is one of the segment where we are now qualified to bid and buildings is there. Railways is -- we are looking at railways very aggressively. So these all 5 segments will be there, in addition to this, overseas also we are participating in some of the countries.
Okay. So sir, will we be able to quantify that kind of bid pipeline that we're looking in these segments?
No, it will be all next year. It will all depend upon the various projects which are coming up. So our bidding would be -- 50% of the focus will be on the road sector. And rest will depend upon, as and when we get the opportunity. So very difficult to quantify target inflow from each segment.
The next question is from the line of Anant Mundra from Mytemple Capital.
Sir, our cash and bank balance has gone up considerably in March '24. So can you give us like an idea why that has happened?
So couple of reasons, actually. There was, of course, definitely, there was a large receipts during March last week from various of our clients who had payables and they processed before March, one. Second, also, there was some working capital debt, which could have been reduced but because of the RBI guidelines for utilization of working capital in the form of 60%, 40%. 60% in WCDLs and 40% in CC. So some WCDLs which -- could not be closed as of March. Otherwise, we would have reduced that working capital loan by using the cash. So -- but the basic reason is inflow of cash from our clients in the last week of March -- last couple of days on March rather.
Okay. Okay. And sir, on the balance sheet, we have a line item of noncurrent trade receivables. So just wanted to understand, why do we have these long-term trade receivables and they've also -- like they have gone up by more than 2x in the last year. So can you explain why that has happened?
So this is actually trade receivables which are outstanding for a couple of clients, which are old, something like Chennai ORR, there is some receivables from the SPV. Now as soon as we get some monetization done at Chennai ORR level, that will get reduced. So that is a substantial amount in that INR 300-odd crores.
Okay. So it's only related to the Chennai ORR receivables.
Majorly related to Chennai ORR and some small -- for old contracts, which are 12 months and above. These are partly related to retention monies which are yet to be received, which are not due but they will be received over a period of time. So they effectively are due will be 12 months or 24 months, depending on that our money will be released.
But sir, Chennai ORR is now a subsidiary, right? Like as on 31st March, it is a 100% subsidiary, correct?
Correct, correct.
So that figure should not reflect in the consolidated balance sheet?
That will not reflect on the consolidated, that's true.
But I think it's still reflecting -- the amount is pretty much the same, both in stand-alone and consolidated. I'm not sure if that's correct but that's what I remember.
It will not be there probably because it is asset held for sale. So it will be in the asset held for sale line item. So I'll come back to -- on a one-to-one basis on the breakup of this INR 300 crores.
Okay, all right. And sir, what is the -- the last question is, what is the outstanding that we have from SBI Macquarie now -- outstanding that we have to pay to SBI Macquarie, sir?
It has gone back to [ INR 1,526 crores ], which was in 2019. So [ INR 1,526 crores ] is what they will expect, the pay off. So that's what has been provided in the books, in the consol.
Okay. And that's the cap?
That's the cap, yes.
The next question is from the line of Vaibhav Shah from JM Financial Limited.
Sir, we have taken approval for fund raise as well. Do we plan to raise some funds in near term or just we have taken approval right now?
So basically, we have taken an approval from an arbitrage purpose and from realigning the working capital as short-term and long-term requirement. So that is the basic plan, like replacing certain WCD with CPs. So that is one approval and second approval is for NCDs for -- something like an 18-month NCD -- 18 to 24 months NCD, which we intend to raise to realign the working capital maturity rates.
So basically, we want to just change the mix of the debt, right?
Yes, yes, yes. But the amount will be [indiscernible]. Yes, we don't want to increase the debt overall.
Sir, if the monetizations go through as our plan, then we expect it to reduce by around INR 500-odd crores in FY'25, right?
Right, right.
The next question is from the line of [ Akhilesh B], who is an individual investor.
In response to one of the earlier questions, you mentioned that earlier we were not participating in the MSRDC auction and now we are participating. So what changed in our thinking? Why did we not participate earlier on, you know, are we finding it attractive now, just to understand the thinking on that.
See, nothing specific has changed but we are seeing aggression at NHAI and participation at NHAI and qualification at NHAI. So our earlier focus was to remain national player, participating in NHAI and MoRTH. But now since NHAI is becoming more and more -- aggression is seen in the NHAI bidding. So now we are looking at the states.
And sir, this money which we've received for UDCL, will part of that go to reduce this SBI Macquarie liability or if we are going to use it for our own working capital, like Chennai ORR?
Yes, it has been -- we will use for its own. Basically, that money was partly -- most of it was used for acquiring Chennai ORR stake.
Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question for today. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Vikram Vilas Suryavanshi for closing comments.
We thank the management of Ashoka Buildcon for giving us an opportunity to host the call and taking time out for interaction with the stakeholders. Sir, any closing comment, sir, from your side?
So we thank everybody for joining this call and we are open for any Q&A on a one-to-one basis through my contacts already given as well as through SGA, our IR managers. Thank you.
Got it. Thank you. Thank you all for being on the call.
Thank you.
Thank you.
On behalf of PhillipCapital India Private Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us. You may now disconnect your lines.