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Anup Engineering Ltd
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Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the conference call for analysts and investors for post-results discussion for quarter and financial year ended 31st March 2022 of The Anup Engineering Limited. [Operator Instructions].
I now hand the conference over to Mr. Rishi Roop Kapoor. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thank you, and good evening to everyone who have joined this call. Before I begin, let me share with you that I have here with me our CFO, Bhavesh Shah; and Company Secretary, Mr. Chintan Patel. We are officially joining today for our con call for FY 2022.
Before we proceed to the call, let me remind you that the discussion may contain certain forward-looking statements that may involve known or unknown risks, uncertainties and other factors. It must be viewed in conjunction with our business risk that could cause actual results, performance or achievements to differ significantly from what has been expressed or implied in such forward-looking statements.
Please note that we have uploaded the results in the press release and also the outcome of the Board meetings on the stock exchanges. And in case you have not received the same, you can write to us, and we would be happy to share with you in due course.
Let me begin by taking you through our numbers for FY '22. The revenues for the year is at INR 228 crores, which is up by 3% for FY '22 as compared to the corresponding previous year FY '21. Revenue was impacted due to multiple challenges at the supply chain, both at the vendor as well as our customer sites, including -- due to COVID delays. However, we were able to continue and maintain a healthy EBITDA margin of 24.3%, PAT at INR 62 crores is up by 16% on a Y-o-Y basis for FY '22.
I'm pleased to inform you that we have an all-time high opening order book of approximately INR 400 crores. Also, we have booked orders worth INR 25 crore since 1st April till date. We had the highest order booking of INR 437 crores during the last financial year, which is FY '22. And highest ever open order book gives us a great chance to scale up during the current financial year, that is FY '23.
Let me take you through the composition of the order book. We have diversified order mix from serious industry segments, including refineries, growing share from petrochemicals, paper and pulp and new age industries like renewables and offshore. We also are having an highest average equipment value in the product mix in the order mix that we have on hand. The proportion of specialty and proprietary equipment is the highest in the order book. We have added newer customers from markets like South America, Europe and Middle East, which augers well for the company in the years to come -- in future.
The inquiry pipeline continues to remain robust. However, the margins are expected to be impacted due to the volatility in the metal prices, which all of us are aware. On the CapEx front, the CapEx for the development of the clean room at Odhav is -- will be completed in May. It's almost already complete and this commission, the base commission already. The clean room facility powers Anup into the elite group of global fabricators, having the necessary infrastructure for fabricating exotic materials like titanium and tantalum.
It will open the doors for the new product as well as new market segments. As far as Kheda is concerned, the Phase 1 construction work in Kheda is also going on in full swing and is on track for commissioning in H2 FY '23 sometime towards the end of quarter 3 and beginning of quarter 4. I'm also pleased to inform you that the Board has recommended a final dividend that is 80%, that is INR 8 per share of INR 10 each, and the company for the year ended on March 31, 2022.
Thank you. And I shall be happy to answer questions, if any.
[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Dixit Doshi from Whitestone Financial Advisors.
Congratulations for a good performance. I have 2, 3 questions. Firstly...
Sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Doshi, the audio is not clear.
Is it better now?
Yes, sir.
So my first question is regarding the execution of the order book. So I assume that pre-COVID, you were typically be used to execute any order within 4 to 6 months. But if I see '22, it looks like it has stretched. How do you see the execution of this INR 400 crore order book?
This -- I think there is no change in the order execution cycles from the pre-COVID days to now, there is no change. The lead times for our fabrication and for all activities from the date that we received the order, continue to be in the region of about anywhere between 9 months to 12 months in most cases.
Okay, 9 to 12 months. Okay. Secondly, you mentioned that margins will remain under pressure. So in last both the years, we have done around 24% plus. So how much impact do you expect?
As far as the margins are concerned, it will be -- see, we have -- as you know, that we have -- the costs have risen very sharply in the recent months. So although we have increased our sales prices and also hedged the majority of our imports, which will help us to improve our absolute EBITDA on a yearly basis, the percentage margin will definitely see a decline. And at this moment, it will be difficult to forecast how much percentage margin at this juncture due to a very sharp volatility which continues to prevail in the input costs.
Okay. But it will be like 200, 300 basis points? Or you expect that it can be even more?
I would perhaps, at this stage, would refrain from being so from making any kind of a forecast on the margins at this stage because the process is still -- we are still securing our materials. We are still -- the process is still going on. So at this moment, it is difficult to -- there are certain other actions also which are going on. Maybe towards the end of first half, we will be in a better position to convey to you how the year is likely to end.
Okay. My next question is in terms of CapEx, how much we will be spending from the -- for this Odhav CapEx and for Phase 1 of Kheda?
I'm, Bhavesh. The Odhav CapEx just got completed, it will be close to around INR 15 crores, INR 18 crores and the CapEx of Kheda would be in the range of INR 120 crores, the first phase.
The first phase. Okay. And last question from my side. You mentioned that once this Odhav CapEx starts, we'll be having a much larger product basket. So it will be like a different kind of heat exchangers we'll be making or any new product we'll be doing?
Primarily, this -- the product which is going to completely remain as Shell and Tube heat exchangers, maybe more of advanced designs like the Helical heat exchangers and vessel kind of heat exchangers that we in our portfolio.
Okay. And that will go in any other industry or it will be more or less similar like refinery, petrochemical and all?
So then definitely they are going to find the use across industry segments.
The next question is from the line of Ankit Babel from Subhkam Ventures.
Sir, 2 questions. First is, what kind of order inflows you are targeting for this particular financial year? This year, you -- I mean, FY '22 was around INR 437 crores. So what are you targeting for this year, sir?
We are looking at something like a growth of about 25% in this year in order booking, 25% to 30%.
Okay. Great. And second, sir, you mentioned that the order execution cycle is somewhere around 9 to 12 months. So considering the fact that you are opening order book is around INR 400 crores, so is it fair to assume that the revenue for this year will be at least INR 400 crores?
Definitely. I think that's what we are looking to grow by around 30% in the next year.
Okay. And this Kheda capacity, when you -- I mean, the commissioning is expected from second half of FY '23, right?
That's correct.
Okay. And sir, lastly, you did mention that it's too early to hazard a guess about the decline in margins, which you are expecting. But since the orders are already there with you, you know the pricing. So -- and you are also expecting a decline in margins. So why don't you give some guidance about the extent of the decline in margins? Can it be like 300, 400 basis points? Or like any typical range will be helpful for us to take an informed call, sir?
The thing is why I said that it is -- maybe it may not be the best time to look at this because we are still trying to finalize the orders, which -- for the orders which have been received recently. That means in the month of March, whatever orders that we have received, there is still some -- a lot of those orders still in the beginning stages where the ordering is still to be done. So that may have a kind of a different -- being ordered now at a different time when the prices at what levels they're going to play is difficult to tell. But I think that maybe it would be fair to assume that maybe about 3% to 4% -- of anywhere between 3% to 4% would be an impact.
Okay. For the full year?
The full year.
Okay. But the new orders, which you would be bidding for, there again, you're bidding at 23%, 24% margins?
Yes. Sorry, Ankit, the last line? The large part of your -- what you said?
I was asking that the new orders which you would be bidding now, you would be bidding at -- I've said 23%, 24% margins?
Right. That is right.
[Operator Instructions]. The next question is from the line of [ Gunit ] from Counter Cyclical PMS.
So we were talking about the CapEx that we're going to do. So we spoke about the CapEx [Technical Difficulty].
Sorry to interrupt you, sir, we are not able to hear your audio clearly.
Is it better now?
Yes, sir.
Yes. So we were discussing about the CapEx that we plan to do and we are on track of completing CapEx for 2 facilities. One is the titanium, one in May and the Phase 1 of Kheda, right? So apart from this, do we have any other pending CapEx? That's my first part of the question. And after the completion of the CapEx, how do we expect the top line to change? The second part of my first question.
So I would like to answer the question like this is that we have currently the CapEx at Odhav is more or less completed with this clean room commissioning. And as far as Kheda is concerned, we are going to like -- the cost of the CapEx is about INR 120 crores is the cost of the Phase 1 of Kheda. And Kheda, the Phase 2 and 3, they are spread over 3 to 4 years. As far as, again, the growth strategy or how the capacity is going to add to the top line, I think we are looking at a growth rate of the whole -- the CapEx has been designed to power our growth at about 30% a year.
All right. So with the current CapEx...
FY '23 onwards.
So with the current CapEx that you finished this year, how much addition to the top line can we expect like by the end of this year?
So FY '23 is going to be about -- we are looking at a growth of about 30%.
All right. Got it. I have another question. So in the June...
Take about anywhere between INR 380 crores to INR 400 crores.
All right. Got it. I have another question. So in the June 2020 meeting, we had a discussion that the company will have set a target to achieve INR 1,000 crore revenue by 2025. So is that an achievable target right now given that we are already just 3 years away from 2025?
No, I think this is deferred by another 2 years because we lost a couple of years due to the COVID impact was quite substantial for our industry.
Right. All right. And can we expect the buyback of Kheda end then soon?
Yes, Gunit, we have done buyback in FY '21. So consistently using our internal accruals to fund our CapEx. And this is only Phase 1 of the Kheda -- total CapEx is guided to 3 phases. So going forward, we'll be utilizing our fund for our expansion.
The next question is from the line of Apurva Shah from PhillipCapital.
Sir, I will continue with the margin front. Sir, I think on the margin front, since last maybe 1 or 2 interests and we have been guiding for some cautious period on the margin. So I just wanted to understand in whatever from that period, whatever orders we get... Is it audible, sir?
So what -- sir, I wanted to understand, okay, from that cautious period, have you introduced any margin clause for the customers? So maybe like for half year of FY '22, is there any price escalation clause for the customer, and that's how we can protect the margins going forward?
No, there are no such clauses like price escalation clause in our industry. That is not the investing factor. So it's always a fixed price contract.
Okay. So that's why you are guiding for maybe 300 to 400 bps margin impact maybe if the prices -- raw material prices remains at the similar level, right?
That's right.
Okay. And sir, second thing also, I do understand that this quarterly number would not be directly comparable to the last quarter because Q4 last year was a significantly high base. But if I look at your half yearly numbers, so this half, we have done revenue of almost INR 148 crores, INR 150 crores versus last year, INR 162 crores. So apart from the supply chain issues and maybe some customer-related issue which you mentioned in your opening remarks, is there any other particular reason which as an investor, we could be aware because there is a slight decrease in the PAT half year to half year revenue as well.
I think the impact that we had on our operations in last year quarter 1 and because of the shortage of manpower and that really hit us quite badly. In H2, we had organized ourselves better, but then that impact, which was there of Wave 2 was actually there a lot of sites of our -- there are project sites, where our equipment were headed to, they had got delayed. And also, another thing that happened was our -- a lot of our suppliers, they were not able to deal with that kind of a situation and that impact kind of really disrupted the flow of materials as required. So I think primarily, these are the reasons which really are responsible for a flattish kind of a growth.
And sir, do you see a normal scenario currently versus maybe last quarter?
I think towards -- if we were to look at the order flows, yes, if you see that even the order flows got restored in Q4. And we are seeing that the momentum continues.
Okay. Great. And sir, last question for Bhavesh bhai. Bhavesh bhai, can you quantify the CapEx in FY '22 between Odhav and Kheda and similarly for FY '23, whatever CapEx we are guiding between these 2 facilities?
Pardon, pardon. Come back again?
I wanted to understand CapEx for FY '22 between Kheda and Odhav. Similarly, whatever CapEx we have planned for FY '23 divided between these 2 facilities.
Yes. So consol CapEx for FY '22 would be close around INR 40 crores, and we will be another spending INR 85 crores in next year.
Okay. So, out of that INR 85 crores, what would be spent on Odhav and what would be spent on for Kheda facilities?
Nothing much in Odhav. Odhav will be hardly INR 2 crores to INR 3 crores, INR 5 crores max. All INR 80 crores will be spent at Kheda. And now Odhav CapEx is more or less done.
The next question is from the line of [ Prashant Kumar Hazariwala ] from Solitaire Financial.
So my question is like what capacity utilization we are working currently.
We are working to the level of maybe about anywhere between 70% to 75%.
So still we have 25% more to go on the same capacity and plus we will get Odhav in this quarter, right?
Yes. But that's the normal level of operations that we have because a lot of times, we have to have that kind of flexibility, that kind of a float available in our capacity to ensure that if something was -- a mess with the existing orders that we have, we can always squeeze in some orders for our traditional customers for shutdowns and replacements in these available capacities.
All right. So another question is most of the orders we have received in the last 6 months or 8 months, right? The current order book all the forefront? Yes, so the metal prices have not gone much during this past -- during this year [Technical Difficulty].
Your line is not clear. The voice is not audible.
So my question is, most of the orders we have received are in the last 6 months, right? And the metal prices have not much appreciated during this period. It was appreciated before, no doubt about it, but only the fuel prices have gone up and that impacted a lot on the inflation side, right? So why we are -- and currently, if you see like aluminum and all these copper prices have been softened a lot during this period, right? So how [Technical Difficulty] for 3% of the EBITDA compression in the operating margin.
Price escalation has been the maximum in the last 6 months.
Sir, that was done before that, right, which has gone down and then again, come back to the same price, right? That kind of thing has happened.
Not really, not really. I wish that was the case.
And the growth side, like even last June, you guys are very bullish on this growth side like during that -- maybe you have a very good order book and all this stuff, right, your last con call. But you have not seen any growth in any aspects like not in top line or bottom line or operating margins. So -- and currently, you guys are seeing, so how -- what is the possibility of there? And it's not only last year. You have seen since last 4 years like you guys are very bullish during the starting of the year. And at the end of the year, it's seasoned out, right. So -- and do you have only one more capacity at Odhav and I'm not considering the Kheda capacity. So how conform you guys are dealing this side?
So last, I mean, 2 years, we have had a kind of difficult years because of COVID. I think FY '21, we did -- we grew. But yes, you are right. In the last year, the growth has been very, very, I mean, it has been actually a flattish kind of a transition into FY '22. And the main reason for that is like I have mentioned earlier in the call, the impact on the supply chain, that was something which was quite underestimated by us when we talked about in the last con call and also the impact of this -- on the customer sites, the delays that happened at the customer sites, the project site, which were not ready to accept the equipment.
So I think those kind of delays were not really expected and not estimated. The other thing if you want to look at, which is different in this year, how it makes a difference is that never before have we opened the order book at this number at such a high order book. Last year, I think it was about somewhere about INR 256 crores. This year, we have opened at 300 -- something like around INR 400 crores. And subsequently, also we have booked orders and that the order flows will -- looks to continue going forward as well.
So that gives us a full year to plan our kind of equipment, the engineering, procurement and ensure that the material and all, whatever inputs are required for the fabrication of our equipment are all available on time. I think that's one key element that is required. Also, if you were to look at the last few years, we have been looking to -- because of the order book was lower, we were looking to deliver ahead of schedule. And sometimes in our industry, that doesn't really hold good, whereas this time, we have orders where the [indiscernible] are going to happen in this -- required in this financial year in FY '23. So that is going to be the difference in this year.
Mr. Hazariwala, may we request that you return to the question queue for follow-up questions? The next question is from the line of [ Abhilash Mendeti ], individual investor.
My query is regarding the Kheda CapEx. How much the total CapEx will be incurred in Kheda? Is it INR 120 crore? Or is it more than that?
The total CapEx of Kheda, for all -- all series put together is close around INR 275 crores. In the first phase, which we have already started, we will be incurring INR 120 crores.
Okay. And why isn't the company exploring the pharma sector as a clientele in the clientele list? Or let it be like this or any chances of like precision equipment and further into?
Yes. So we had [ diversification ].
Yes. There is -- diversification is definitely very much high on our agenda. And if you were to look at the current order mix also, there is -- the proportion is growing in the petrochemicals, we are -- we have in the past years also already made breakthroughs in the Power segment, and we are continuing to do so in the current year as well. So the even precision equipment, the likes which are required for nuclear, aerospace and defense is something that is going to come up as Kheda -- towards the completion of the third phase of Kheda.
The Odhav expansion, which we are doing, is it -- can it give a chance of exploring a higher order book, like bigger orders from bigger players because of the clean room technology?
Definitely. Definitely. The clean room technology, the whole development of this day and this facility is to get into a higher orders, higher kind of [ a segment ].
The next question is from the line of Kunal Shah from Carnelian Asset Management.
I have just one question. So you were having a team for the capacity, which I believe now should be done through since you are running the CapEx at Odhav, that was the Bay area, right? And so what I'm trying to understand is that even if Kheda doesn't come up, say, by FY -- what is the revenue potential that one can go through from this existing facility now?
For the existing facility, the revenue potential for the next year, you want to know?
No. Next year, we've already said that we'll be doing the execution of the current order book, right? So capacity constraints.
Yes, the revenue potential from the current facility, which is at Odhav, we can double it, the potential is to double it.
So from existing facility, you can easily go up to INR 600 crore kind of top line is what we are seeing? And how would this Bay area coming up?
Yes. All the CapEx at Odhav is now complete, and we can increase the turnover from this facility itself to about INR 600 crores.
Okay. And -- sorry, yes…
Yes, between INR 500 crores to INR 600 crores.
Okay. Okay. And just wanting to understand, we have got a good uptick in the order book from [ INR 283-odd ] crores to the present where we are. But as one of the participant said, the execution basically is a little slow in comparison to what we had in the last half. So is it partly because of the slow execution that we are seeing the traction in the closing order book or should one to believe that? Because if you see the Q3 and Q4 of last year and we see Q3 and Q4 of this particular year, right, then the execution probably has slowed down in comparison to the last year.
It's -- like I said, I think the delays that happened at the site. If you look at the execution speed, I think one indicator of that is our on-time deliveries record. It continues to remain very intact. So whenever order you are taking a delivering almost quite either on time or ahead of schedule. I think no lowdown there. Yes, the reason that I have already stated in the call because supply chain disruptions and the site delays. And that really was kind of underestimated by is, I would say so.
Okay. Okay. And how are you seeing the traction now building up? Are you seeing any green shoots in the CapEx other than crude obviously is doing very good. So there -- it's visible in the order book as well. But what's your sense now with the cost escalations that have happened, right? We see a lot of companies postponing their CapEx plan because of the budget going haywire, and there is a sudden slowdown as far as the order booking growth for the CapEx. So what's your sense on how is this going on presently?
So how we are looking at it is that currently, I think the refining capacities and petrochemical capacities in India, they are likely to continue to have these -- the CapEx in the next maybe 3 to 5 years. That is likely to continue, and that is already going on, and we are seeing what is happening, getting -- I think that traction continues. However, we are looking to -- now focus on the global market at first and start growing our exports. I think that's one area where we are -- we've taken this -- the focus is going on.
And previous like we have already made beginnings in projects of where -- new hydrogen projects for certain -- impact the first project of its time. We are getting into chemicals. We are getting into different sectors like fertilizers, gases, geo power, green hydrogen, green ammonia. So these are the areas where we are going to diversify and there are definitely opportunities available to us at the global level. Most certainly for the brand in the existing sectors also, there are companies who are going to apart from India who will ramp up the refining capacities and the petrochemical capacities, and those CapEx is continuing. So that is very much evident in the kind of inquiries that we are getting.
Okay. So basically, you're not seeing that much of a challenge as far as the CapEx inquiries goes. Yes, the cost has gone up, but still the inquiries continue to be robust basically.
I think -- I would place -- the big reason for that is that we are into the high-end engineering kind of an equipment, some equipment -- these equipment are key to a plant's operation. So I think these equipment are definitely something which where we're not seeing those any kind of a decline there.
Okay. And just one question. We are focusing very much on exports. So since the transportation cost of our capital goods equipment plays a very important role since they are bulky, right? So how does the competitiveness get affected, if at all, it gets impacted when we are transporting or making it for a client which is based out of India?
So we have exported in the past as well to all parts of the globe, including the United States and Canada and South America. Apparently, what is happening is that these kind of engineered equipment, the capabilities to engineer, the capabilities to design are strength here in India. And also the manufacturing, the whole manufacturing technology for these kind of engineered equipment is our strength. And that's the reason why we have seen that the kind of capabilities that we have, those companies are in the developed part of the world, we are either -- I mean, we have already shut for because we are not able to compete.
This being a very, very material and labor intensive kind of came up. Engineering efforts are source intense in this, that, in fact, most of these companies, they have their procurement and engineering centers located here in India.
Okay. Okay. No more from the perspective that is the competition or industry size small products to focus on India? Because in the past, you said that margins when it comes to exports and domestic are more or less similar, right? So more from that perspective as well, is the competitive intensity in India increasing and therefore, focus on exports? Or how should one look at that?
The kind of [indiscernible] who are approved for these kind of products that we are making, you can count them on your fingertips. It's a very, very small deal. These are highly critical, highly complex and the degree of engineering which goes into these equipment is quite high. We have a very [indiscernible] I think that is -- the competitive landscape is very favorable.
The next question is from the line of Aman Vij from Astute Investment Management.
My first set of questions is on the specialty/proprietary equipment, which you have talked about. If you can explain what is the order book of such products this year? What was the revenue, say, of such products in FY '22 as well as if you can talk about, is this only Helical heat exchanger you're talking about? Or what all is considered as proprietary or specialty products?
You are talking about - from the revenue mix?
Yes. For FY '22 as well as you have mentioned order -- in the order book, it is one of the highest proportions. So if you can talk about that also.
So in the order book, it is to the tune of maybe to the extent of about 45%. And as far as the revenue mix is concerned, maybe we'll have [indiscernible] to the tune of about 15% to 20%.
Yes.
So correct me if I'm wrong -- sorry, first, if you can talk about what on products are included in this specialty or proprietary equipment?
These are advanced designs of heat exchangers. I have already named the helical, and there are several other design equipment. So I would refrain from naming the other designs.
Sure, sir. But in terms of growth, so of INR 300 crore sales, which we did, you were talking about 15%, 20%, which is like INR 50 crore, INR 60 crores, but INR 400 crores, you're talking about -- around INR 150 crores to INR 200 crores order book. So is there such a substantial jump or if my understanding is...
That's right. That's right. That is the whole idea is that these equipment gave a clear advantage to the user in terms of efficiencies and in terms of savings. So that's why people are now -- most users are now switching over to these advanced designs.
Sure, sir. That makes sense. So these advanced designs were the new CapEx which we had done at Odhav. Is that helping in getting this? Or what is the initiative...
The demand for the product is increasing. One thing is that the kind of experience that we had in these kind of advanced designs for the last 20 years. And the second thing is that even more users are becoming aware about it. So they are preferring to go in for these designs rather than going for a standard kind of a heat exchanger.
Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question for today. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Rishi Roop Kapoor for closing comments.
Thank you, everyone, and we'll be happy to connect with you during this year. Thank you.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of The Anup Engineering Limited, that concludes this conference call. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.