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Ahluwalia Contracts (India) Ltd
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Good evening, everyone. I would like to welcome you all for Q2 FY '23 Results Conference Call of Ahluwalia Contracts India Limited. We thank the management for giving us the opportunity to host the call. From the management, we have Mr. Shobhit Uppal, Deputy Managing Director, along with Mr. Vikas Ahluwalia, Executive Director; and Mr. Satbeer Singh, CFO, with us. Without wasting much time, I will hand over the floor to Shobhit sir for opening remarks. And post that, they will be [ sharing ] their data regarding the order book and all the book keeping questions, and then we will have a Q&A session. Over to you, sir.
Thank you, Shravan. Good evening, everybody. Ahluwalia Contracts India Limited, has announced its financial results for Q2 FY '23. During Q2 FY '23, the company has achieved a turnover of INR 622.84 crores and a PAT of INR 39.17 crores in comparison to a turnover of INR 698 crores and a PAT of INR 35.78 crores in the corresponding quarter of the last financial year. EPS of the company for Q2 FY '23 is INR 5.85 as compared to INR 5.34 in Q2 of FY '22. During Q2 FY '23, company's EBITDA margin is 10.99% as compared to 10.04% and PAT margin, 6.29% as compared to 5.13% in the corresponding period of the last quarter of the last financial year -- of the corresponding quarter of the last financial year. During the H1 FY '23, the company has achieved a turnover of INR 1232.09 crores and a PAT of INR 76.94 crores in comparison to a turnover of INR 1278.11 crores and a PAT of INR 70.60 crores in H1 of FY '22. EPS of the company for H1 FY '23 is INR 11.49 as compared to INR 10.54 in H1 FY '22. During H1 FY '23 company's EBITDA margins is 11.06% as compared to 10.67% and a PAT margin of 6.25% as compared to 5.52% in the corresponding period. Net order book of the company is INR 7587.73 crores to be executed in the next 24 to 30 months. Total order inflow during the current financial year stands at INR 3182.77 crore. We are L1 in 3 projects aggregating to INR 1098.35 crores. Thank you.
Shall we open the call for Q&A session, sir?
What I would suggest, Shravan, that all the bookkeeping questions and all details relating to geographical divide and other such questions. Satbeer will make the announcement and then I'll take questions after that.
Okay.
Over to Satbeer.
[This is ] first of all, segmentwise order book. Segmentwise order book which is commercial 8.35%, hospital, 32.04%.
Sorry to interrupt you sir. May I request you to come -- I am so sorry to interrupt the current briefing sir. I would request you to come a bit closer to the phone, please.
[Technical Difficulty] 38.27%, residential, 13.24%. And sector-wise, government 81.51%, private 18.49% and its [ passthrough about ] region wise east 37.60%, north 33.97% and south 4.88%, west 17.74% and outside India, 5.82%. And if you asked about state wise, this is Assam 5.56%, Bihar 28.1%, Delhi 8.30%, Himachal 11.26%, Haryana, 1.89%, Jammu, 8.55%, Karnataka 4.88%, Maharashtra, 12.17% and Odisha 3.76%, UP 2.91%, West Bengal 5.52% and Uttarakhand 0.72%. The rest is outside India, Nepal 5.82%. This is about order book. And Besides that, there is a retention money, it's around between INR 150 crores. Total debt, including retention, this is coming out INR 691 crores, mobilization advance is INR 190 crores. And out of this interest bearing 50% and [indiscernible] INR 605 crores, inventory, INR 238 crores, real estate inventory, INR 39.73 crores, unbilled revenue, INR 315 crores and [ net working capital days ] this is coming out 71 days. And besides that, there is -- I think so more of interest bearing projects 50%. And this [ light contract ] is around 20%. This pipeline is INR 5,000 crores. I think most of the questions has been [ pull up ] and CapEx also. CapEx during the quarter INR 21.65 crore and last quarter INR 12.20 crore which is now aggregated to INR 33.35 crore.
We can take questions now.
[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Mohit Kumar from DAM Capital.
Congratulation on another good quarter sir, as far as margin is concerned. So my first question is on the execution run rate, can we expect and, of course, I think we've given a guidance of 15% growth, which means the second half, we should do INR 1,800 crore as top line. Are you maintaining the guidance? Or do you think there are downward risk?
We will strive to maintain that guidance.
So the margins are --
Before that order book -- our order book is healthy. And traditionally, the last [ 2 ] quarters, the run rate is always higher. Yes, our turnover has been flat, as far as this quarter is concerned, there are a number of reasons for that. But I think we are geared up to increase it substantially in the last 2 quarters over the next 4.5 to 5 months, which are left for this financial year.
Understood, sir. Second on this, sir, on the order pipeline, how does this look like at this point of time? And given that we have already [ give you ] I think our guidance was [ $40 billion, $50 billion ]. I think we already largely we are there. Can you just comment on the order pipeline opportunity for the Q3 and Q4?
Yes. We've actually exceeded our target. We've been conservative in our bidding now. So we are already L1 in 3 projects. Two out of which we are expecting to be awarded shortly within this month. So going forward, the pipeline is robust, but we are being conservative in how we are bidding.
But can you expect some, sir, the surpassed the order inflow guidance for the fiscal?
Maybe we'll surpass this by about -- our guidance was INR 3,000 crores. So we may surpass it by about INR 1,000 crores.
[Operator Instructions]
Sir, can you hear me?
I can, yes.
Yes. Meanwhile, the question comes. So I just wanted to understand. So these 3, L1, if you can help me in terms of breakup and also when it's likely to be converted into order. So INR 3,183 crores we received plus the INR 1,100 crores, so close to INR 4,300 crores, INR 400 crores is there. So are we not now expecting any further order inflow apart from L1 in the second half?
No. Out of these 3 projects, one project the Tata Memorial Hospital which we are still not very sure when the funding would be approved and then the LOI will release [ what ] -- so we -- as I said, INR 1,000 crores likely increase. The 2 other projects, the total aggregate of that [indiscernible] [INR 460 ] crores. So I'm saying that we will get another INR 500 crores to INR 600 crores at least over and above the Tata Memorial of these 3 projects that we're talking about.
Okay. So currently, in terms of the overall bid pipeline, if you can help us where are we looking at what's the total size or any big ticket project? And what can stop us in terms of not taking up bigger projects now? So --
Look, just to give you an idea, pipeline is very robust, as Satbeer said because there are a number of infrastructure projects like railway station development, airports, hospitals, which are coming up. But as I said, we have been very conservative because the competitive intensity remains high. So there is a concerted push to try and push up our margins, right, which I had given the guidance during my last 2 con calls that we get into double digits, we will touch about 12%. So that is what we are pushing on. And another thing is that while the competitive intensity increases in the public sector, what we are seeing is that the private sector is reviving. Residential projects are not a focus for us, but we're seeing in the education side, in the institutional side, we are seeing hospitals, we are seeing growth on the private sector side also. So this is what we are focusing on now. But the focus remains on the margins for the next 2 quarters.
Okay. Margaret, you can take the question from the queue.
[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Ashish Shah from Centrum Broking.
Sir, my question is again on the margins, which you were just talking about. So we were probably looking forward to some sort of improvement in the run rate in the second quarter, given that commodity had fallen. But still, we seem to be at close to around 10% only.
No, 11% Ashish, sorry to preempt you, but I have a clear comparison in front of me. I think we've beaten the margins of some of my closest peers, smaller and bigger than us.
Right. No, that I appreciate. I know -- I mean, there are quite a few who would have not reached 10%. But more specifically to --
They are at 11% and you find discount, and this is in spite of headwinds primarily on account of excessive rainfall. Why our turnover is also a bit flat is because we've lost a lot of time due to excessive rainfall across the country. So in spite -- and that our overheads have impacted in spite of those impacts on the margin we have ramped up or we've got good numbers.
Sure. So basically, we are saying we are on track to go to a 12% targeted range, probably we'll exit the year at that level, around 12% or...
That's what we'd like to strive for, and we are maintaining that.
Sure. No, that's helpful. Sir, second is on the -- I mean, we did say that, of course, NCR is now not that big a proportion of our book, around 8% you mentioned, but...
That increased in the last -- in this financial year, we won in the NCR, we won a couple of large marquee projects. So yes, it will contribute to the turnover in these 2 quarters now going forward.
Sir, my question was on the ground situation as far as currently is concerned because again, there are pollution-related issues there. So are we looking at another quarter where at least in the NCR-related projects, you may have a significant headwind? Or do you think it won't affect execution much. It's been allowed in that sense?
Going forward, I don't think -- though we lost about 3 weeks -- 15 to 20 days, but I think going forward, this is behind us.
[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Nikhil Abhyankar from DAM Capital.
The opportunity, sir. Sir, when we are guiding for the EBITDA margin, are we including other income or excluding it?
Yes. We are including it.
So excluding other income, what can be margin?
Because of this -- our other income has mainly improved [ it has been ] written back and that kind of relative to business income. So that's why it has been included in for the calculation of [ EBITDA ].
Okay. So sir, the second question is, currently, our order book is majorly focused on government contracts. So what will be our focus going forward? Sir, will we focused on government contracts? Or will we try to ramp up our private order book?
No, we will. I've been saying that over the last 2 or 3 interactions that I've had with all of you that we will ramp up our exposure to the private sector. though not the residential private sector. And that's what we've been doing. We won a few private sector contracts with some of our existing and new marquee clients, and we will increase the private sector share of our total portfolio. It stands at 20% now.
Sir, just wanted to further understanding on the couple of the larger projects in terms of the status, where are we in terms of the education front, what projects are likely to be completed in the next 6 months to 12 months. So if you can help us would be great.
Okay. So our biggest project, Jammu, will be completed in the next 12 months. We are looking -- the other hospitals that we are doing Hamirpur and Chamba will also be completed in the next, say, 9 to 10 months. We have just started the veterinary university and hospital project in NIT in Patna. So that will go on for about 2, 2.5 years. We are -- the Adani data center projects will be completed in the next 12 months. As far as other projects are concerned, we are -- The Times -- The Bennett University that will be completed in the next 12 months. The Muthoot Hospital that we're doing in Dwarka, which is now a Max Hosptial. Max is partnering that, has moved in as an operator that will be completed in the next 12 months. As far as the projects which will go on beyond that, [indiscernible], the commercial project that we're doing at Aerocity, that will continue beyond that. That's about 2.5 million square feet of commercial space that we've just started. So that the time line is about 18 months. The Central University project, which we've just started designing is going on, that will go on for about 2 years in Dharamshala. The Nepal project, the National Police Academy, that designing is happening. So that will go on for about 2.5 years. We should be completing our scope of work at the Sant Nirankari Hospital in Burari in Delhi in the next 12 months. So does that answer your question?
Yes, yes, that's helpful. And just in terms of the -- you mentioned that you will keep looking to increase the private exposure but not the residential. So not even in the South also we are hearing that the real estate is in the news, and it is continuously seeing a higher sales. So just trying to understand what's your view still we are not comfortable?
So Shravan, as you would know, we have now started or restarted in Bangalore. We have projects aggregating about INR 450 crores there. And we have started our first project in Hyderabad.So yes, Ahluwalia has now forayed into south. And we already have inquiries on projects, both from the private sector side, both for residential and commercial, but residential is something which we are very, very cautious on. Commercial is a bidding, residential at the moment, down south, not very focused on that.
Okay. Margaret, take questions from the queue.
The next question is from the line of Vasudev from [indiscernible].
So you said that we are L1 in 3 projects, one of them is Tata Memorial Hospital project. So, as far as the other 2 projects --
Margaret, even your voice was not very clear.
Sorry sir, will check on that. Just give me a moment. And were you able to hear Shravan Shah clearly?
Yes. Shravan was clear, but your voice isn't?
Okay.
Sir, I can hear Margaret voice clearly and your voice clearly.
Maybe the gentleman can ask this question again.
Yes. Is it better now?
It is.
[indiscernible] L1 in 3 projects. One of them is the Tata Memorial Hospital, which are the [indiscernible].
Sorry to interrupt, actually Vasudev your line is breaking -- your audio is breaking.
Yes, his voice is not here at all.
I would request you Vasudev to please check your line and rejoin the queue. In the meanwhile, we'll move to the next question, which is from the line of Uttam Kumar Srimal from Axis Securities.
Sir, what is our CapEx [ then so ] FY '23 and FY '24?
Can you come again please.
I'm sorry to interrupt. Mr. Srimal, please come on the handset mode, I think you are on speaker. So, the audio --
No, I'm a handset mode. What is the CapEx guidance for FY?
You're clear and now, please [indiscernible].
Yes, sir, I just want to know what is your CapEx guidance for FY '23 and FY '24?
Yes. For FY '23, our guidance would be -- we've done about INR 33 crores, as Satbeer mentioned in his initial comments. It will be another INR 20 crores for the next 2 quarters. And as far as FY '24 is concerned, it would be in the range of about similar INR 50 crores to 60 crores.
Okay, sir. And sir, in case of [ east ] projects, how the execution is going on since after change in government, is payments and all that has become normal?
Which part -- which geographical listing are you talking about?
Bihar sir.
So look, Bihar, JDU continues to head the government. The RJD is a part of this now. Previously, it was BJP. So it's not only this quarter, but we've been facing payment issues. Cash flow has been an issue with the Bihar projects, especially the Bihar medical projects, the hospitals that we are doing. So that continues to be an issue, but we feel that maybe in the last quarter, it will improve because there seems to be an active push from the political leadership to complete the health care projects.
The next question is from the line of [ Padma Devan ], an Individual Investor.
Is my voice audible?
Yes, it is.
Okay. I just have one question. This is based on your annual report. The annual report claims that there are legal [ claims ] worth roughly INR 900 crores filed by the company and about INR 1,800 crores filed against the company. It will be really helpful if you can provide some details about these claims in terms of nature of these claims? How old are they? Have you provided anything against these claims? It will be very helpful.
So maybe we can get back to you. I can broadly give you the details. The major need, as you know, you would understand this. I'm assuming that when we file a claim, the client for obvious reasons, files a counterclaim, right? So the major one in this is the arbitration that is going on with [ MRMGS ] for the games village Commonwealth Games Village project that we had completed in 2010 before the Commonwealth game. Now our claim against them is to the tune of about INR 400 crore and about approximately INR 500 crores, and they have filed a counter claim about INR 1,100 crores. So this is -- otherwise, there are a slew of other clients, but those are -- those will be -- this is virtually about 60%.Rest all the other details, you can reach out to our IR department or our CFO, we will be more than happy. It's in the public domain. The details should be there in our annual report.
Okay. Just to clarify, these are all very old clients, at least 10-year old clients?
Yes. Major one is a 10-year. The arbitration has been going on for the last 7 years. It is just that when it was reaching a culmination because of COVID, the arbitrator -- the presiding arbitrator was very old. He was 85 years old, he refused himself. He resigned actually. So it is actually going to start again. We are in the [indiscernible] to get presiding arbitrator appointed, a new one. But what I'm trying to lay stress on here is that the 1,800 figure of counter claim that actually most of it is baseless because when we go to go and file claim, the builder or the client has to file a counterclaim.
Understood. If I understood your answer correctly, the [ top ] claim alone accounts for 60% of the [indiscernible], am I right?
Yes.
Is there a need for providing for these clients? Is there a chance of this risk materializing [ in future ]?
No, it's as per the new guidelines that have been given by the government of India, we have to mention this because of transparency, but the risk of this materializing is highly, highly, highly unlikely.
Okay. The reason for this question was that only FY '21 and '22 annual reports talked about these clients actually, I could not find anything in the prior annual reports. That's the reason why I -- we wanted to clarify --
Our auditors [ insisted ] because they are now bound. There is -- our CFO will tell you what the new guidelines are. They were bound to kind of state this, they insisted, our auditors insisted. That's why we've done it. It's not --
The next question is from the line of Sandip Sabharwal from asksandipsabharwal.com.
Yes. My question was for some more clarity on the margin front, like you are at around 11% now. You have indicated a target of around 12%. So do you think that you'll be able to get to the run rate of 12% this year, by the end of this year and maintain it next year? Or how are you looking at it?
Yes. To both questions. Yes.
Hello? That's it?
Yes. No, you want further clarification?
Yes.
I'm saying yes to both. So you have a further question, kindly ask that.
My question was that when you have guided for the margins, you're looking at a full year margin of 12%. Are you looking at an exit run rate of this year of 12% and maintaining it next year?
Yes, we are looking to maintain it next year. The logic is that a lot of our projects, we have a very healthy order book. And out of that order book, a lot of projects which are named in response to an earlier questions from Shravan, they are just going to take off now. These are design-build EPC projects where actual construction will begin on the ground in the next, say, a month or so. So -- and expenses towards site mobilization and all have been done.
[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Vasudev from Nuvama Wealth Management.
Am I audible now Sir?
Yes, you are.
Yes. Sir, I was asking that we are L1 in 3 projects currently. One of them is the Tata Memorial Hospital project. So which are the other 2 projects?
There is a convention center in Guwahati from PWD there, which is about INR 260 crores. And there is a Lachit memorial coming up in Jorhat. Lachit was a renowned freedom fighter of Assam. So that is about INR 175 crores. This is in Jorhat.
Okay. So this is approximately around INR 400 crores, INR 450 crores. And then we are [Technical Difficulty].
Tata Memorial was about INR 700 crores.
Okay. We're targeting another INR 1,000 crores of order inflows for the second half?
Yes.
Okay, sure, sir. And in terms of business pipeline, you told that it's INR 5,000 crores, and we are looking at [Technical Difficulty].
We have lost you gain.
Mr. Vasudev your line is breaking up again.
Yes, please.
So I was saying that our bid pipeline is INR 5,000 crores and you said that hospital is one segment that we are looking at. So which are the other segments that we are looking for?
Hospital [Technical Difficulty] institutional building, campuses, commercial projects.
Okay. Got that. And in terms of the competitive intensity, you said that it is still high. So what's your outlook for the next, say, 6 months to 1 year that do you see competitive intensity coming down? Or do you feel that it will still remain high?
It will remain high.
Okay. And just one last thing, sir. What is the average cost of debt for us now?
Interest on debt is hardly 22 lakhs [indiscernible] half year [indiscernible].
Okay, got it sir.
What Mr. Satbeer is saying, there is debt. Virtually 0 debt.
Sir, just trying to get one aspect in terms of the working capital. So though it marginally increase in this one [ edge ], but we will not see any significant further increase? Or will it come down to the March 22 level. So core cash conversion days, if I look at inventory debtor payable currently is closer to 22-odd days versus March, it was 15-odd days. So I just wanted your view on that?
I think so Shravan -- working capital is coming down. If you compare with the last [indiscernible] March '22 [indiscernible] the last quarter. In the last quarter there were 87 days, now this is [ coming out ] 71 days and before that also asked 31 March 22, this is around 73 days. So that is -- I think that's part of this 31 March '22. That is normally coming down now.
We have some other figures. Maybe you're asking for some other metrics. Shravan, can you repeat the --
I'm just saying we will not see any increase in the working capital. It will remain or we will see a further marginal reduction in the working capital by the year-end?
There will be no increase. There should be a reduction.
Okay. And just 2 things on the -- one is the real estate inventory. So how much is that? And when can we see to getting liquidated and Kota Bus Terminal project, so anything in terms of the monetization on that aspect?
This is Kota, this is [indiscernible] approximately, this is [indiscernible] 82%. And we are basically [ starting ] for the third and fourth floor. And I expect that the middle of next year, we are something that approximately entire area would be cover -- 80% would be covered. And this is basically at present. We are [indiscernible] the entire property. And this is a -- at present if you ask about the quarter two, this is -- still we [indiscernible] around INR 11 11 lakh and [indiscernible] about half year [indiscernible] lakhs in surplus. This is cash surplus.Against the accounting loss of this is [indiscernible] lakhs this quarter two and it is close to INR 2 lakhs for the half year. But this -- we are expecting that by the end of the year there will be [ accounting ] would be -- accounting would be at a par approximately.
Okay. Margaret, I take the question from queue.
The next question is from the line of [indiscernible] Capital Advisors.
Just had a follow-up question on the competitive intensity. Has it gone up over the last 6 months, how would you describe it? And is there a segmentation, meaning if the contract value is higher than a certain threshold, then there is less competition. If you can just give a little more color on that?
On the public sector contracts, public contracts, the competitive intensity has increased. On the private sector side, there seems to be a greater discipline and the client want to be -- there seems to be a conscious effort from the client side, at least large clients to go with the closing contractors with proven track records. So what I'm trying to say is that the margins -- we feel that the margins will start improving on the private sector side. And with RERA and other consolidation which has happened, we feel especially nonresidential projects, they will be more attractive to us, of course, with more due diligence in place. As far as the public sector, this thing is concerned, for obvious reasons, you see more competitive intensity -- on larger contracts, yes, the intensity is lesser, the number of bidders because the prequalifying condition is [ better ]. But we see most of the contracts or a lot of contracts which are coming in the building segment are ranging from -- in the range between INR 300 crores to INR 700 crores. In this range, the intensity is high.
I see. So beyond 700, you are seeing it becomes less, right?
Yes.
Yes. Okay. And that's very helpful. And my second question is you have been saying on this call, and I'm sorry, new to the company that you are avoiding residential. So given that RERA has really taken out all the marginal builders and most of them are getting corporatized. Why is -- why are we staying away from residential?
So I'm not saying that we will never do residential even in the rest of this financial year, we will not do any private residential contracts. It's just that we burnt our fingers. And since you're new to the [Technical Difficulty] investors, earlier investors and people who interacted with us in the past, now not only us, but all the large contracting companies have burned their fingers big time with private developers. So we want to tread very cautiously more so when we're not very hungry. We've already met our inflow targets for the year. So that's why residential is not a priority for us as things stand. But going forward, we've always maintained that in the long term, we would like a 50-50 breakup between the public and the private sector. Once this discipline on the developer side increases, we would start looking at the residential side again.
Okay. The next question is from the line of Uttam Kumar Srimal from Axis Securities.
Sir, it's just a request like other infra companies, can you also provide some kind of earnings presentation on a quarterly basis, that will be very helpful for us?
Sorry, Uttam, can you repeat your question again, please?
Sir, I just want the company to provide earning presentation on quarterly basis. That would be very helpful for people like us?
Earning presentation on a quarterly basis.
Yes, it will be uploaded [indiscernible].
Satbeer is saying we will be uploading this shortly today only.
Okay, sir. But if we get just before the con call, then it's really helpful to us. That's a request only.
We'll do that. We'll keep that in mind. And from next time around, we'll publish it or upload it before the con call.
The next question is from the line of Deepika Bhandari from Phillip Capital.
Most of the questions have been answered. I just missed the segmental breakup for hotels, infra -- infrastructure and institutional. Can you repeat?
Yes. Satbeer will just give it.
Can you repeat your question, please?
Segmental breakup for hotels, infrastructure and institutional?
Okay. This is the institutional is 38.27% and hospital [ 32.04% ].
Okay.
[indiscernible] [ 2%, 4% ]. Infrastructure 7.20%, commercial, 8.35% and hotel is 0.90%.
As there are no further questions from the participants. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Shravan Shah for closing comments.
Thank you, everybody. I thank the management, again, for giving us the opportunity to host the call. Shobhit sir, do you have any closing comments?
No. Thank you, Shravan. Thank you, everybody. So I hope to be talking to you again post our next board meeting. Thank you so much. Have a good evening. Bye.
Bye. Thank you, sir.