360 One Wam Ltd

NSE:360ONE

Earnings Call Analysis

Record-breaking profits amid strong business growth

The company's first quarter of FY '25 saw record profits with PAT growing by 34.2% to INR 243 crores, driven by a 48% rise in revenue to INR 600 crores. The wealth ARR AUM increased by 39% to INR 1,41,635 crores and AMC ARR AUM by 24% to INR 79,652 crores. Operating profit surged by 71.8% to INR 335 crores. Despite higher costs and a litigation settlement, the cost-to-income ratio improved to 38%. The company also provided guidance, projecting a full-year net flow of INR 30,000-35,000 crores and aiming to stabilize the cost-to-income ratio around 45% in the next 18-21 months.

Strong Performance and Exciting Growth Opportunities

In the recent earnings call, 360 ONE WAM reported a significant upturn in business performance for Q1 FY '25, buoyed by strong economic momentum in India. The company's wealth ARR AUM rose to INR 1,41,635 crores, up 39% year-on-year, while AMC ARR AUM increased by 24% to INR 79,652 crores. This growth was attributed to robust net flows, which climbed by 70% compared to the previous year. ARR revenues reached INR 376 crores, reflecting a 16.8% year-on-year increase .

Revenue Growth and Operational Efficiency

Total revenue from operations experienced a 48% year-on-year increase, amounting to INR 600 crores for the quarter. This growth was reinforced by a rise in transaction and brokerage income, particularly in private markets due to the firm's large ultra-HNI client base. Overall, total revenue for Q1 FY '25 stood at INR 697 crores, up 6.6%. Total costs also rose by 25.9% year-on-year to INR 265 crores, driven by a 27.2% increase in employee costs and a 22.6% rise in other costs. Despite this, the cost-to-income ratio improved to 38%, down from 48.2% in Q4 FY '24. The company projects the cost-to-income ratio to stabilize between 44% and 46% in the long term .

Record Profitability Amidst Litigation Settlement

The firm reported its highest-ever quarterly profit after tax (PAT), reaching INR 243 crores, a 34.2% increase, resulting in a tangible return on equity of 33.5%. Despite including an exceptional item of INR 87.6 crores related to a litigation provision, the operating profit still saw a substantial 71.8% year-on-year increase to INR 335 crores. Additionally, profit before tax, excluding exceptional items, surged by 93.1% year-on-year to INR 432 crores .

Strategic Focus and Business Expansion

COO Anshuman Maheshwary emphasized the company's strategic focus on wealth and asset management, leveraging its leadership position in these sectors within India. With an impressive record of client acquisition and retention, the firm added over 150 clients each with more than INR 10 crores of ARR AUM in Q1. Net flows in wealth management and asset management were healthy, with the former contributing INR 4,700 crores and the latter around INR 900 crores .

Guidance and Market Position

CEO Karan Bhagat provided guidance for the net flows for the full year, projecting around 12% to 15% of the opening AUM, translating to approximately INR 25,000 crores to INR 30,000 crores. Bhagat also indicated a future target to lower the cost-to-income ratio to 45% over the next 18 to 21 months. Additionally, the company remains optimistic about maintaining ARR retention rates at 70 to 72 basis points in the near term .

Future Outlook and New Initiatives

Looking ahead, 360 ONE WAM is excited about the future. They are poised to capitalize on the positive economic outlook and their strong business fundamentals. The company continues to innovate, including the planned acquisition of ET Money, a leading wealth advisory-focused fintech, subject to regulatory approval. This acquisition aligns with 360 ONE WAM's approach to wealth management and is expected to fortify its client segment strategy. Furthermore, the company is eyeing significant opportunities in the alternates business, particularly with new tax benefits for unlisted and fixed-income investments .

Conclusion

In summary, 360 ONE WAM's Q1 FY '25 earnings call highlighted robust financial performance, an improved cost structure, and strategic initiatives poised for future growth. With solid market positioning and a clear vision, the company appears well-equipped to navigate upcoming opportunities and challenges, benefiting both clients and shareholders .

Earnings Call Transcript 2025-Q1

[Anil Mascarenhas, executive]

Very good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to 360 ONE WAM's Q1 FY '25 Earnings Call. [Operator Instructions] Please note, this conference is being recorded.

On the call today, we have with us Mr. Karan Bhagat, Managing Director and CEO; Mr. Anshuman Maheshwary, Chief Operating Officer; and Mr. Sanjay Wadhwa, Chief Financial Officer. I now hand it over to Sanjay to take this conference ahead. Thank you.

[Sanjay Wadhwa, executive]

Thank you, Anil, and a very good afternoon to everyone on the call today. Indian equities continued its full run for yet another quarter with benchmark indices touching all-time highs, supported by robust economic momentum, encouraging macro indicators and sustained domestic flows.

Strong GDP growth and capital markets expansion is accelerating the pace of wealth creation in India. As a result, we believe India's wealth and asset management sector is priced for structural growth phase in coming years, supported by faster wealth creation outside of traditional pockets and overall low penetration.

Before we deep dive into financials, we would like to highlight that the Board has approved second interim dividend of INR 2.5 per share for FY '25. Now, coming to the business and financial numbers. Starting Q1 FY '25, we have reclassified inactive ARR assets to PBR assets post restatements of our current and prior periods, our total ARR AUM increased to INR 221,000 crores, up 34% year-on-year. This growth was supported by strong net flows at INR 5,549 crores.

During the quarter, flows rose by 70% on a Y-o-Y basis. Our wealth ARR AUM stood at INR 1,41,635 crores, up 39% year-on-year while AMC ARR AUM stood at INR 79,652 crores, up 24% year-on-year. Our ARR revenues for the quarter grew by 16.8% Y-o-Y at INR 376 crores led by growth in assets across business segments and healthy retentions on ARR AUM.

Our ARR revenue as a percentage of total revenue from operations stood at 62%. Total revenue from operations are up 48% Y-o-Y at INR 600 crores for Q1 FY '25. The quarter also witnessed strong transaction and brokerage income mainly driven by opportunities in the private markets. Our large ultra-HNI client base allows us to capitalize on such opportunities, creating value for the clients as well as the firm.

Total revenues are up 6.6% Y-o-Y at INR 697 crores Q1 FY '25, also supported by higher other income during the quarter. Total costs are up 25.9% Y-o-Y at INR 265 crores in Q1 FY '25. The employee cost grows by 27.2% Y-o-Y, while other costs increased by 22.6%.

As a result of higher growth in revenues, cost-to-income ratio has declined to 38% as against 48.2% in Q4 FY '24. In the long term, we expect the ratios to stabilize in the range of 44% to 46%. Our operating profit grew by 71.8% Y-o-Y at INR 335 crores. An amount of INR 87.6 crores has been disclosed as an exceptional item, net of taxes towards provision for full and final settlement pertaining to the ongoing litigation in U.K. against 360 One entities.

In view of ongoing litigation costs, which would have continued for another 4 to 5 years, it was prudent to settle the case to avoid further trial-related costs. Profit before tax -- before exceptional items grew by 93.1% Y-o-Y to INR 432 crores.

Post all exceptions, we are happy to report our highest ever quarterly PAT in Q1. PAT rose by 34.2% to INR 243 crores with tangible return on equity at 33.5%. With that, I would like to hand it over to Anshuman to cover key business and strategic highlights.

[Anshuman Maheshwary, executive]

Thanks, Sanjay, and good afternoon, everyone. At the outset, let me reiterate, we are extremely excited by the strong business performance of quarter 1 as reflected not only in the financials, but also in the underlying input metrics of new families, institutional flows and fund pipelines and new segment readiness.

The last 4 to 5 quarters have been very interesting for the industry as well as us, both in terms of equity market movements and business trends. In this period, 360 ONE WAM has been able to showcase agility, resilience and steady growth in all phases. We strongly believe that we have significant growth opportunities given the outlook on India and our leadership position in the relevant business segments.

The competitive moats that we have built through a sharp focus on wealth and asset, including cutting-edge proposition, deep client relationships, continuous product innovation and robust risk and governance position us uniquely for these opportunities.

As a testimony to our disproportionate attention to execution, we were able to clock strong growth in our client base in quarter 1 of FY '25. We have onboarded additional 150-plus clients with INR 10 crore -- with over INR 10 crores of ARR AUM with us.

With a total client base of 7,400-plus clients having total AUM of INR 10 crores plus stand at close to about 3,000-odd clients and that accounts for 94% of our total wealth AUM. Our overall net flows were very healthy, and they stood at INR 5,550-odd crores, of which wealth management net flows stood at close to INR 4,700 crores and about INR 900 crores in asset management.

Our overall retention stood at 72 basis points. On the Wealth Management front, our overall retentions remained healthy and stable at 71 bps. I would like to highlight that about 65% of the wealth management net flows has come into the 360 ONE Plus offerings at steady retentions.

These trends gives us confidence on our advisory mindset and client interest, which together gets translated to strong client stickiness. Our key focus area in this business remains to improve our client wallet share, expansion in new cities and continuous enhancement of our digital capabilities to enable seamlessness for both RMs and clients. Of all the new hires that we did last year, folks are settling in well and starting to become productive as we speak.

On the Asset Management front, despite planned outflows from our pre-IPO flagship fund, our flows remain healthy with gross flows of over INR 3,500 crores. Having said that, the continued focus on deepening our channel presence in the domestic market, specifically through MFDs is delivering positive results.

The pipeline on our new funds as well as new international institutional mandates remain strong and will drive the next phase of growth for the business. Our Asset Management business gets further strengthened with Raghav Iyengar joining us as the CEO for the business. Raghav joins us from Access Asset Management, where he served as the President and Chief Business Officer.

Raghav's deep market understanding will help strengthen 360 One assets, strategic direction and growth agenda, specifically working very closely with the investment teams to enhance our market presence as well as our products. On the HNI segment business build, we are enthused by the progress made over the last quarter.

The proposition has been tested with a diverse set of potential clients. The platform is working well across the spectrum of products and services and we are being able to bring together a range of innovations and industry-first features collaborating with various ecosystem partners.

We are also continuing to onboard a great set of talent from both internal as well as external sources and are overall on track for a scale material business build in this segment. On the global business, the focus has been on building robust proposition, products and platform and we are on track with all the key building blocks. We have a good pipeline of initial client discussions and are well poised for the business to take off in H2 of the current fiscal year.

On the new acquisition, we are very happy to announce the acquisition of ET Money, a unique wealth advisory-focused fintech. The acquisition aligns well with our approach to wealth management and completes the flywheel across client segments for 360 One. Subject to regulatory approval, 360 ONE WAM will acquire 100% of ET Money via a stock and cash deal.

ET Money is one of India's biggest SEBI registered investment adviser by a number of clients and among the largest non-brokerage digital platforms for wealth management. It has 9 lakh plus transacting clients with more than 1 lakh revenue-generating users. It tracks an overall AUM of about INR 70,000-odd crores, and the AUM invested through its platform is nearly INR 28,000 crores, of which mutual funds constitute more than INR 25,000 crores.

The platform has gross monthly sales of over INR 1,200 crores. These flows include SIPs of INR 450 crores plus and overall MF net flows of nearly INR 750 crores. Its unique investment advisory service, ET Money Genius has more than 76,000 active paying advisory clients with an AUM of about INR 1,200-odd crores.

The platform offers significant synergies with 360 One, potentially allowing us to significantly accelerate the monetization of ET Money's expanding client base through product ideas and innovation, strengthening of the core wealth proposition and introduction of new services currently available with us.

We believe together, ET Money can further strengthen its position as the WealthTech leader for the rapidly growing INR 10 lakh to INR 1 crore segment. Lastly, we continue to take pride in the external recognitions received by our wealth and asset management businesses. We are very proud to be recognized as a Great Place to Work 2024. We are also recipients of some prestigious awards like Best Domestic at Finance Asia and Best Fund of the Year Equity at the Global Private Banking Innovation Awards 2024.

With that, I would like to hand over to Karan and open the session for Q&A.

[Anil Mascarenhas, executive]

Thank you, Anshuman. And thank you, Karan, for joining us. [Operator Instructions] We have the first question coming in from Mohit Mangal.

[Mohit Mangal, analyst]

Congratulations on a good set of numbers. So I have got 3, 4 questions. The first question is on the transactional revenue. I believe like last quarter, this quarter also the number looked pretty high. So was it on the log deals or if you could give more color on it?

[Karan Bhagat, executive]

Maybe, Mohit, if you can just put the 3, 4 questions together, I can answer it together, maybe.

[Mohit Mangal, analyst]

Okay, sure. So that was the first question. Second is that now that everything is calculating active ARR assets. Is it a fair assumption to make that, that ARR retention, you would basically target at around 70, 75 bps? So that's point number two. Point number three is basically in terms of the mid-market, I mean how has been the behavior and how has the client acquisition been now that we have actually spent some time on it?

And lastly, in terms of the dividend payout, I believe that this quarter, it was a little lower, but I believe that 70% to 80% dividend payout would be kind of maintained. Yes. So those are my questions.

[Karan Bhagat, executive]

So I'll quickly answer most of them. You're right. I think the TBR has kind of continued to be fairly strong from the previous quarter. I think it's a quick breakup of similar transactions to what we saw in the last quarter. So it's a combination of a little bit of increased brokerage revenue, but also a lot more activity on the unlisted side.

And actually, the activities also picked up a little bit on the credit side. So in some senses, the TBR is on the higher side, but it's across asset class. It's not only restricted to equity. So I think as we go forward for this year, I think I expect the TBR to be fairly strong, but a little bit of the enhanced -- a little bit of enhanced interest on credit as an asset class, especially I think given the recent change in the budget where long-term taxation on bonds for individuals will be 12.5%.

I think, generally speaking, the TBR income on bonds and credit will all become an active part of the desk for us. So again, no special mention of any specific transaction as such. But yes, TBR is continued to be higher this quarter. I think, obviously, needless to say, may not be as high as it has been in the last quarter and the current quarter to necessarily continue for the full year.

But I think just given the level of capital market activity right now, the TBR component continues to be fairly strong. On the active ARR side, you're absolutely right. I think 70 to 72 basis points is where the firm is kind of targeting itself to be. However, having said that, I think there are 2 things we'll have to remember on the active retention of 70 to 72 basis points.

I think that includes a little bit of the lending revenues. So the lending revenue obviously will not go in the same proportion as the growth in the AUM on the active ARR. And secondly, also, obviously, the mix between the distribution and the advisory portion also has a little bit impact on the final yield of 70 to 73 basis points.

So while I'm very comfortable with the headline retention continuing to be where it is, I think the mix of business will be a function of 3 things. One is the mix of distribution as well as advisory assets, both giving us ARR. Second is the mix of the lending revenue. And thirdly is the mix of the size of the clients.

And therefore, the farm has a very, very important focus on the number of -- on the number of families also. Because if we only end up getting large families, then obviously, the retentions can kind of come off. So at a headline level, I think we are very comfortable with the 70, 72 basis points retention.

I think just as a quality of mix of business naturally, I think over a period of 3 to 5 years, that retention automatically comes down to round about 67, 68 basis points. So on the headline level, comfortable with where we are on the retentions.

I think on a long -- on a long model basis, I think just given the mix of business, retentions come down to 67, 68 basis points. On the mid-market segment, I think we're still in -- we're still in a mode where we've kind of pretty much seamlessly executed transactions on both the portfolio management side as well as on the alternate platform as well as on the mutual fund side seamlessly on a digital mode.

I think we are among the very first to kind of execute transactions digitally for alternates as well as for portfolio managements -- portfolio management transaction is practically on a digital basis.

We've ended up executing transactions of nearly if I'm not wrong, close to round about $75 million to $80 million over the last quarter or so. And we are feeling very, very comfortable with the platform. I think we've also identified initial team of around about 75, 80 relationship managers to be able to kind of launch into that business. Our corporate team, product team, investment team on that business is absolutely set ready to go.

I think we'll go stream -- online stream by the end of next week, we'll be pretty much in launch mode from a distribution perspective. So our hypothesis continues to be absolutely in depth on the mid-market piece. And we strongly continue to believe, maybe with initially, we thought that it would be April this year, but I think July this year is when we -- sorry, August this year is when we start monetizing this business.

Lastly, on the dividend payout, you're right, I think a little bit of reduction on the dividend payout, but I think the broad philosophy continues to remain the same. It continues to be in the region of 70% to 80%. I think we've kind of got it down a little bit, largely on account of our -- slightly larger growth the alternates business. I think on the alternate side, we are now around about grown to on a mark-to-market basis, close to around about INR 38,000 crores, INR 39,000 crores.

And typically, I think this 2%, 2.5% of this AUM gets invested back as sponsor capital in the alternates business. So I think that's kind of consume maybe INR 150 crores, INR 200 crores extra over the last 6 to 12 months. And the NBFC has also kind of grown disproportionately, but that's not levered too much. So that's perfectly fine. So I think overall, we've kind of maybe just reduced the dividend a little bit. But philosophically, we continue to be in the region of 70% to 80%, 85% of our profits as dividends.

[Anil Mascarenhas, executive]

Next in line, we have Nidhesh Jain.

[Nidhesh Jain, analyst]

First is on what the trajectory on cost-to-income ratio? In this quarter, we have seen pretty low cost-to-income ratio. How should we think about cost-to-income ratio going forward? And second is, any guidance on the net flows for the full year?

[Karan Bhagat, executive]

Thank you, Nidhesh. I think cost to income continue to maintain for the full year basis, I think closer to the 46% to 47% number, which we kind of started and guided towards last year for the current year. I think broadly speaking, obviously, this quarter, the cost to income has kind of come down dramatically because of the enhanced revenues.

Obviously, the good thing is we've seen a decent growth in the ARR revenues also, which obviously are going to kind of continue even irrespective of the broader capital market activity over the next 9-odd months. But I think without considering that enhanced capital market activity, I think we should end up at our projected cost-to-income ratio of 46% to 47% for the year.

I think all things being equal, we'd like to get that to 45%, 46% next year. And I think eventually, as time goes by over the next 2 to 3 to 4 years, I think we would like that number somewhere to be in the region of 43% to 45%. But I think our first target is really 45% on a steady-state basis and take it from there.

So I think over the next 18-odd months, maybe 21 months, including the -- including 12 months of the next year. I think our first priority objective will be to try and see the cost to income at 45-ish. On the -- sorry, what is -- on the net flows, I think we continue to be in that ZIP code of around about 12% to 15% of our opening AUM as our net flow guidance. So I think our opening ARR AUM was round about INR 2 lakh crores. So effectively 12% to 15% of that would be in the region of INR 25,000 crores to around about INR 30,000 crore, INR 35,000 crore would be a net flow guidance number.

Of that, obviously, we are around about INR 6-odd crores for the first quarter. So more or less in line, but typically quarter 3, quarter 4 on net flows, all things being equal, tends to be slightly better. So hopefully, we can move by INR 5,500 cores, INR 6,000 crores of net close towards the INR 30,000 crore number by the end of the year.

[Anil Mascarenhas, executive]

Next in line, we have Bhavin Pandey.

[Unknown Analyst]

Congratulations on a wonderful set of numbers. Karan, it's incredible to see the waveform is growing. Just first question was on the asset management front. So of course, yields could be slightly higher because of the alternates business and the AIF business. But when we look at performance of these funds and if we were to defer them in terms of top quartile, second quartile, so how do you look at performance of these funds because we want to look at continuity of money that flows here?

[Karan Bhagat, executive]

Yes. I think our performance is absolutely critical, and there's no continuity. Every client is super smart. And I think on the pre-IPO fund, we are now on the effectively close to our fourth fund in some senses. And our first 3 funds have done relatively well and they're definitely in the top decile.

I think the -- without performance, it's impossible to get the same plan to continue to put in money. On the pre-IPO side, I think now we've got our track record of nearly 2017 to now '24, 7-odd years. And we are looking at a very interesting data point on our recently -- we are just closing our new pre-IPO fund of around about $500 million as we speak.

And I think if I was to look at the data set of the clients who've come into that fund of $500 million, I think just in view terms, I was seeing nearly 72%, 73% are investors who are within our earlier pre-IPO funds. So I think that's how high the repetitive rates are.

Obviously, our sector-specific funds, we've got 3 of them. We got financial services, which we had raised around about $200-odd million. That's our best-performing fund that's given a CAGR of close to around about 38% over the last 4, 5 years. And we've got another one in tech, which is maybe flattish 15%, 20%, but it's done very well compared to the peers given what's happened in the industry.

And third, we've got health care, which we just about has started raising another $100-odd million fund. So I think on the private equity side, we've kind of done fairly well, but most importantly, we've got the strategy and the design of the product, right? Because on the private equity side, we've got more individual family office LPs. So the tenure of the product is more structured around the 4 to 7 years with a sharper focus on IRR than only the multiple of capital invested.

And even the fees on the pre-IPO side are on drawn down and not on commitment and even the carries without catch-up. So those things work really well for the high net worth client and the performance then adjusted for the fees is held up very, very, very well.

On the listed side, obviously, we continue to be in the top 3 or top 4 on each -- on both the mutual fund categories, we are on a consistent basis. And similarly, on the credit side, we've had a fairly unblemished track record for the last 8, 9 years.

The only place where we had a bit of a patchy track record was our real estate funds, which we did between 2012 to 2018. Adding our funds of vintage 12 to 15 did extremely well, 12 to 16, the 17, 18 funds had a patchy performance of 4% to 5%. I think we've not lost a fund since 2019 in real estate. So I think that sector is something which we want to be a little bit more cautious about. But outside of that, our experience across all our products has been quite good here.

[Unknown Analyst]

And growth on the business has been pleasantly surprising because in last few commentaries, we could notice that, that would be sort of secondary focus as compared to our alternates business. So what led to growth there?

[Karan Bhagat, executive]

I wouldn't say it's secondary at all. We look at it slightly differently, to be honest. I think we try and break up our asset management business, not into mutual funds, PMS and AS, where it's largely broken up into listed and alternate. And honestly, the listed strategies coming through mutual funds, PMSs or AIFs, we're kind of indifferent to it because philosophically, listed is a larger theme and a strategy.

And it's irrespective of the 3 vehicles we are talking about, they're all open-ended in some senses. And obviously, mutual fund as a vehicle on the listed side has more benefits both from a tax perspective as well as from just the ease of convenience perspective. So I think on the listed side, as our business grows, I think our mutual funds will grow disproportionately.

And I think we've been relatively prudent in kind of building out our total expense in the mutual funds and our distribution commission payouts. And if philosophically, you would want to continue with that, and I think, therefore, in some senses, we'll never be a blowout collection because we'll never be the best kind of best commission paymasters, but at the same point of time, we'll strive very hard to kind of build it well.

So I think mutual funds on the listed side will be a very key strategy for us and I think that's something, which we'll continue to build out. And secondly, you're right, I think we invested a little bit more on the distribution side over the last 6 to 12 months. But that we continue to do as -- especially since now Raghav was joined, I think that distribution team will become deeper.

Historically, we used to have only around about 20, 22 people in the distribution team. We've expanded that to around about 27, 28. I expect that team to go up to 40, 50 people over the next half of this financial year. And therefore, I think that should see itself as expression in collections. And thirdly, I think what's really helped us on the mutual fund side is we were a little more conservative there. I won't call it secondary, but more conservative because we wanted to first build out the brand. The brand is obviously known historically more for the wealth management business, and we want to kind of ensure that we spent some time and energy, delivered some performance and then build the brand and then invest on the distribution side rather than getting out an investor on the distribution side too early.

And just given where we are from a brand recognition perspective, if we announce the right time to invest in distribution. And that's what we started doing over the last 6 to 9 months.

[Unknown Analyst]

Okay. Just expanding on that, we could see that retention slightly lower on the MF business if you look as compared to listed peers because they were in line with listed peers, the AUM is much higher than us. And third question was on the global business. So are we planning to offer Indian products denominated in USD or like what is the strategy around there?

[Karan Bhagat, executive]

I think, second one is more a function of the age of the assets, your first question, I think as far as the listed peers goes, obviously, I think we'll have to kind of break the assets into new assets and old assets. So that has a big impact on the retentions, but I think as far as the new incremental assets go, our retention should not be lower than most of our peers.

And on the global strategy itself, I think very, very quickly, I think our first -- I think we want to be idle, want to play 2 roles. Okay. So I think the first role will be the way you kind of pointed it out, we should be the choice of the preferred adviser for the India allocation part of the client's portfolio.

So I think whenever clients are outside of India, NRI or a client who's been out for a long period of time, a person of Indian origin, when he's looking to allocate to India, he should have 360 One as his first preferred port of call.

And obviously, when he wants to access India through products, he could either do it through his NRI account or he could pretty much put in money from his private bank dollar account into our India products. So our India products obviously would have Singapore feeders or a gift city feeders, which will feed into our Indian vehicles. So that's the first port of call. Second business as we evolve, obviously, will be to become an adviser for them and effectively be able to help them manage their entire global portfolio as advisers rather than as pure executors because we're unlikely to build a full-fledged global wealth platform and compete with any of the big boys in either Singapore, Dubai or the U.S.

So we're likely to play 2 roles, one is that of the India allocator and second is that of a portfolio adviser, where we work with the client's current private bank. And effectively, in some senses become like an external asset manager to advise them.

[Anil Mascarenhas, executive]

[Operator Instructions] Next in line, we have Dipanjan.

We'll move to Anusha Raheja.

[Unknown Analyst]

[Technical Difficulty]

[Karan Bhagat, executive]

So sorry, Anil, I can't hear Anusha properly. Maybe we can come back to her. I don't know.

[Anil Mascarenhas, executive]

Yes, we'll come back to Anusha. Anusha, we couldn't hear your question. We'll come back to you. We'll move to Gaurav Jain.

[Unknown Analyst]

A couple of questions. One is on this TBR income of INR 225 crores, we had given an estimate mentioned that it includes some amount of income recognized on the inactive ARR AUM also. So if you can quantify that is a meaningful portion of what is that amount?

[Karan Bhagat, executive]

It has been less than INR 2 crores, INR 3 crores.

[Unknown Analyst]

Okay. Second, on the lending book, Karan, we are seeing yield compression. So from 5.75% as on Q3, it is down to 4.86%. You think there is room for increase on this? Or should it stabilize around these levels?

[Karan Bhagat, executive]

A little bit of function of cost actually. The yield -- the gross yield is not really confirmed, but the cost has moved up a bit. So I think -- I mean, for the next couple of quarters, still we see a little bit of rate reduction. I think it's 4.75 to 4.9 is the more realistic number.

I think on a stable state basis, we would want to come back to the north of 5, but it's a little bit more -- I think our cost has kind of gone up by 15 to 25 basis points as compared to the overall lending rate, but I think on a steady-state basis, if it can be around that 5-ish mark, that will be the right number.

[Unknown Analyst]

Understood. Thirdly, on this format of data book, Karan, I think the earlier format was better, and we just got comfortable with that format and we have changed it. If possible, I will personally at least request you to shift back to the earlier format that was way more comprehensive and indicative and easier to navigate.

[Karan Bhagat, executive]

It would be possible. We're trying to get that done, no problem.

[Anil Mascarenhas, executive]

Next, we move to Anirudh Agarwal.

[Unknown Analyst]

Congratulations on the great performance. My first question was, after the tax changes that we've seen in the budget, how do you view the alternates business? So clearly, for unlisted, there's this big tax benefit that now comes in. So going ahead, how do you think about our business in terms of new fund launches, et cetera, what the other opportunities open up?

[Karan Bhagat, executive]

So I think, tax changes, to be honest, I think, is very exciting for both unlisted and fixed income. I think unlisted obviously it kind of improves the net return itself. So the reduction of tax from '24 effectively to, in some ways, to 14 is exciting. I think to be honest, clients were very excited with the unlisted portion in any case. So I think just kind of adds to the buckeye of opportunities.

I think the bigger change, honestly, is on the -- also on the fixed income side. I think their long-term tax for individuals on listed bonds being at 12.5% would also kind of spur up the markets quite a bit.

So actually, I'm quickly excited on both and also on the REITs and the InvIT side, especially on the private REITs and the InvITs, some of them, which are very, very exciting, broadly given kind of IRR yields of around about 13%, 14%, 15% with potentials for capital appreciation.

Again, it's a great family office, high net worth product. So I think a combination of all of these 3 being taxed incrementally will be tax at 12.5% will be very exciting. The other thing which I feel will be a good place for innovation and a little bit of incremental work will be the co-investment portion. So the co-investment syndication portion also with SEBI having kind of given a very comprehensive framework for co-investments will also kind of help in spurring that up.

So I think both the co-investment aggregated in a credit investor PMS as well as the tax changes, all 3 kind of augur very well for building a cohesive co-investment business along with the blind pool business on the asset management side.

[Unknown Analyst]

Got it. Two more questions, Karan. First one was the new team that we had onboarded last year, or a few more new teams that we had onboarded on the RM side, if you can just talk a little bit about how they've scaled up, how performance has been? And incrementally, how much more productivity do you see coming in from the new teams? And second one was on ET Money. So ET Money at least outside it looks like a slight divergence from our earlier focus on ultra-HNI and HNI. So if you could just talk about a little bit on that acquisition?

[Karan Bhagat, executive]

Fair enough. I think on the ET Money, I'll take the question first and then I'll come to your other question. I think on the ET Money side, obviously, what was attractive for us was, if I just kind of simply break up the business into 3 parts. I think there are 3 parts of that business. One obviously is -- or rather, let me just take a step back and explain the way the business is currently set up, right?

So I think they've used 2 great hooks to kind of attract clients into their ecosystem. The first hook is obviously doing mutual funds on a direct plan effectively without charging a transaction fee or the distribution fee to the client and that's led them to grow fairly good net flow book of around about INR 450 crores, INR 500 crores a month on the SIP side.

The other thing which they've done well is build a fairly good comprehensive reporting aggregation software. And these 2 things really have served as a hook for clients to comment. I think what they've done really well distinct from the others where rather than focusing only purely on the brokerage portion, which is something which we would have seen as if that was the only focus we would have seen definitely seen that as a bigger divergence to our strategy.

But what they've done well is build a product called ET Genius, which effectively has run about 80,000, 85,000 paying advisory clients, who effectively pay around about INR 250 a month, and they have around about 80,000 paying clients paying down about $3 million a year.

And therefore, in some senses, if you look at it globally, the advisory model across retail clients has scaled up very, very substantially, especially in things like Vanguard, PFAS and so on and so forth. I think, ET Money for the last 1 year, 1.5 years has successfully kind of tried and tested this model. And today, there are around about 80,000-odd clients paying that advisory fees leading to around about $3-odd million of revenue.

So while it is small, the hypothesis has been well tested, the attrition of clients is fairly low in that pool. And that business line obviously gives us the highest amount of excitement to build out. The model portfolio is around that are very, very similar to the model portfolios we built on the 360 One Wealth Management side. I think currently, they run one-model portfolio, we intend to expand that to 3, 4 model portfolios.

And obviously, that can be done at different levels of scale on our ultra-high net worth business level scale on that one. The second one and the third question, obviously, the second portion is really going to be on -- there's a little bit of a play on the fractionalization and democratization of both PMS and alternates. So you have other online players kind of fractionalized and democratize PMS and alternates fairly well. The largest among them is now kind of in some senses, done around about close to $1.5 billion, $2 billion of distribution and fractionalization through the format.

I think that's the second big opportunity for ET Money along with the advisory piece. And third, obviously, when you start looking at value additions along with these 2, it is going to have some bit of value additions on our NBFC loan against mutual fund platform as well as the brokerage platform.

So those are the 2 kind of side benefits, but the main value prop really will be on the very, very similar to our ultra-high net worth business on the advisory side as well as on the distribution side. And I think the direct plans will continue to be used as a hook. Outside of that, I think we felt that from a price perspective, a large amount of the investments was already done.

And we're kind of coming into a cycle into the asset where a large amount of the investment is done and we can really kind of scale up the asset from where we are today. And the nondigital part of the business, which is really the investment products and so on and so forth is very common to our core DNA. And that really doesn't need to kind of get expanded or rebuild again. And lastly, obviously, we have a lot of comfort with the team in meeting the team for many years generally to understand the digital space.

So that's something which we had comfort on. So I think it's, in some ways, while on the client segment side, it's a bit of a diversion. But I think the key success factors to get that business working is very similar to what we have. And therefore, we feel -- at least I feel the advisory portion on retail over the next 5, 10 years will transform much faster than a lot of us believe. And therefore, we want to be part of that transformation.

[Unknown Analyst]

Got it. Perfect. Just another question on the new teams that you had onboarded.

[Karan Bhagat, executive]

Sorry. On the new teams, obviously, I think very, very -- Anshuman kind of covered it in his opening note. I think, fairly, really excited, especially the -- on the wealth management side, I think all the teams are up and alive. I think pretty much on track to start breaking even in the -- before the 18th month itself. I think, by and large, I would say 75% to 80% of the team will achieve those breakeven points.

I think 15%, 20% might take a long go about 75%, 80% of the teams, both in terms of cost to the company as well as in terms of value, we'll achieve their breakevens within 18 months. I think what gives us more encouragement obviously is the fact that if you look at both breakeven of employees and productivity of employees and clients, they become disproportionately productive and remunerative to the form from year 1, 3, 5 and 7 in very different -- in different ratio.

So on client in year 1, RM in year 1 kind of becomes 5x productive -- 7x productive by the end of year 4, year 5, and effectively 10x been productive by the end of year 7. So I think our ability to kind of add these people now and also add a whole host of clients over the last 18-odd months is very encouraging for us.

And I think if we handle the transformation well, both in terms of capacity as well as in terms of build out of the client platform. A lot of these clients and RMs will end up having substantially -- substantial more assets over the 2 to 3 years.

[Anil Mascarenhas, executive]

Next in line, we have Jayant Kharote.

[Jayant Kharote, analyst]

Congrats on a great set of numbers. Karan, first on the mid-market segment. You -- if I heard correctly, you said you have identified 70 to 75 RMs for this business. So I remember earlier conversations was a much smaller number. So are these new hires? Or these are carve-out of the existing RMs? Can you just split the this number more for us?

[Karan Bhagat, executive]

Yes. So the total strength would be 70, 75 by the end of the year. We've got 45 people already in the mid-market business. Of the 45 around about 10 are dedicated on the sales side. And of the new 75 people, around about 35, 40 people are from -- covered from the current team and another 25, 30 people are at the point of different points of recruitment.

[Jayant Kharote, analyst]

Yes. And the sales side you want to take from 10 to?

[Karan Bhagat, executive]

10 to 75-odd people.

[Jayant Kharote, analyst]

By this year itself?

[Karan Bhagat, executive]

By the end of this year, yes.

[Jayant Kharote, analyst]

And in terms of AUM guidance, I remember you had given a blended number of INR 10,000 crores for global plus HNI a couple of quarters back. Do you want to still have a relook at this number now that you have done the 75 million, 80 million of throughput?

[Karan Bhagat, executive]

It'll be around that number. It'll be, I think, in that ballpark number of INR 8,000 crores to INR 1,100-odd crores.

[Jayant Kharote, analyst]

And in global offering, can you talk about how that's shaping up?

[Karan Bhagat, executive]

It's shaping up well. I think we've got pretty much all our empanelments done. I think we are in second half of our technology onboarding program, I think we're pretty much on track to go live mid-September. I think that's really where it is. I think we were hoping for 30th September as of now looks on track.

[Jayant Kharote, analyst]

So if I could just squeeze in one last. On this unlisted shares, given post-budget, the tax rate changes from 20 to, do you I mean, how do you look at this opportunity from a multiyear perspective and your presence in this market has been quite strong in the past? So any relook if you want to sort of carve out any department or I mean what is your thought on this space?

[Karan Bhagat, executive]

No. So I think we've approached this piece a little more conservatively than others, and I think we'll continue to do this a little conservatively. I say conservatively because of the following reasons. We typically not behave like brokers or we don't end up syndicating too many transactions on the unlisted side. The only transactions we offer to our clients on the unlisted side, both in terms of co-investments or sometimes in the form of direct sales.

Our transactions, which we are doing typically from our blind pool basis on the asset management side. So therefore, we kind of become a little more, at least in our mind, we've become a little bit more prudent in what we are offering. And we wanted to be subject to a much higher level of higher bar of diligence before we really take that idea out to the client. What we don't do is behave like a ranger or a syndicator or a broker for that simple security. So that's what we don't like to do.

So therefore, I think while I'm at the headline level, super excited about the unlisted opportunity and the fact that from a friction cost perspective, the tax is reduced massively. I think at the same point of time, I don't want to get carried away to kind of make direct equity buying and selling a trading activity within the firm.

I think we would like to keep it to restricted to ideas, which we are buying from our funds. And therefore, we've spent a lot of time diligencing it and only offer those ideas to our clients either as co-investments or buys. So I think that's the operating principle, and that's allowed us to kind of not make many mistakes in the business. And most importantly, we don't want our relationship and our reputation with the client to be identified with 1 single unlisted idea.

[Jayant Kharote, analyst]

And is this a rule only -- supplies only from AMC portfolio?

[Karan Bhagat, executive]

It's not a rule, but as I said, we want to have a diligence, much, much higher bar of diligence, not supply from the AMC portfolio, only investments which are blind pool funds are also doing, okay? So we -- basically, the bar is not -- the bar is the fact that we should not be buying and selling it. We should be -- we should have enough -- done enough to have diligenced it and convinced ourselves to be able to buy it for the long term through our blind pool portfolios. So just want to use a couple of incremental bars of diligence.

[Anil Mascarenhas, executive]

Next, I invite Dipanjan Ghosh.

[Dipanjan Ghosh, analyst]

So Karan, just a few questions from my side. First, on the new client acquisitions that you're seeing, how much of this would be, let's say, new clients who have been formed as a result of monetization activities or where there has been certain money inflow that has happened also, let's say, the clients who would be newly acquired because of you tapping a new geography or maybe tapping into the existing customer cohort of a competitor because of new RM addition that we have done.

So I just wanted to get some sense on that. I'm basically trying to understand how the flow or client acquisition strategy will shape up once less as the primary market stabilizes a bit. The second will be, you have been discussing about your institutional mandate strategies and really, that can also see some green shoots once the global offshore strategy picks up. So how do you see the pipeline on that side of the business? And lastly, you mentioned the number of INR 3,500 crores of gross sales in your alternate. But obviously, the net number was lower because of redemptions. So what is the product pipeline on that? And should one continue to see the gross run rate remaining at these levels only?

[Karan Bhagat, executive]

I think all great questions. I'll quickly kind of take it one by one. I think I'll take the last question first. I think on the alternate side, fairly excited, as I said, on multiple strategies. I think we're broadly acting on 3 fronts. On the private equity side, this quarter, we are closing our pre-IPO fund are effectively, our fourth pre-IPO fund is called as 12, 13 with a collection of around about $500-odd million. So the response there has been excellent.

We will also kind of will get our health care fund to close that we had collected on $65 million, $70 million there. I think we'll move it to around about $100-odd million in that fund will -- that fund will close.

On the credit fund side, we've launched a credit fund that also should get to a number of $200 million, $250 million by the end of the next 3 to 4 months. Real assets, we're still in the stage of investing our first fund. So that would take some time before we launch our second fund. And on the listed side, we'll definitely do a couple of more strategies.

So I think the overall traction is likely to continue. I think, the quarterly numbers get a little bit plus and minus depending on the redemptions in that quarter as well as the closing of those -- of new funds in that quarter. So I wouldn't kind of look at it only from a quarter perspective, but from a year perspective, I think out of the INR 30,000 crores, INR 35,000 crores getting around about INR 8,000 crores to INR 10,000 crores of net flows from the asset management side, pretty much stays on track. I think that's the broad number, I would say, on a net basis.

And therefore, from on a gross basis, that would need to be at least around about INR 5,000 crores, INR 6,000 crores extra. So if we end up at INR 8,000 crores to INR 10,000 crores of net flows, you would need to do INR 13,000 crores, INR 14,000 crores of gross growth on the asset management side. From -- with reference to your first question on the mix of the clients, I think that's a great question, but it's a little bit of the stage of the firm. I think the same question 2 years back, I think I would have said 70%, 75% is coming from monetization events and new client sales of promoter selling shares and IPOs and so on and so forth.

But right now, for the last 2, 3 quarters actually has been 50-50 because we've added some great people from across the industry. And therefore, we are able to kind of breakthrough to a lot of clients also with invested portfolios. So to my positive surprise, it's a 50-50 split. I think 50% of our clients are coming from clients who have already invested with some of our competitors and the remaining 50% is really coming from a sale of businesses or sale of some shares from a listed promoter or dividends or sale of real estate. So I think it's a combination of the 2. But traditionally, I think it's been more in the favor of the second as compared to the first. But I think over the last 2, 3 quarters, it's 50%, 55% from existing other clients also.

[Dipanjan Ghosh, analyst]

Sorry, just -- there was one question on the...

[Karan Bhagat, executive]

Yes, and the institutional mandates, I think that goes on track. I would be surprised if we don't end up with at least getting a couple of mandates through the year.

[Dipanjan Ghosh, analyst]

If I just can squeeze one small question. You are classified in our data book, the inactive AM separately and you've changed the classification a bit, but do you expect these assets to really turn into ARR or may be deployed into more high-yielding TBR assets at some point?

[Karan Bhagat, executive]

Yes, yes, for sure. But around about 65% would definitely be active in some way, either active ARR or TBR. 30%, 35% might not be because those might be just liquid funds just pending to be invested into either the passive assets like businesses or even taxes when it comes up for payment in different quarters. But 60%, 65% will definitely be active, maybe potentially a portion of it will move into ARR and a large portion of that might go into TBR. But they are definitely on the horizon. We are servicing them. We are kind of constantly engaged with the client to try and convert it into active. So I wouldn't write off those assets for sure.

[Anil Mascarenhas, executive]

Next in line, we have Aejas.

[Aejas Lakhani, analyst]

Karan, congratulations on a very strong set. Karan, could you just give me more color on what is the underlying in the transaction -- in the transacting assets? Because the uptick is quite sharp. Could we also see possibly a downtick? Or how do you sort of see this trajectory for the rest of the year?

[Karan Bhagat, executive]

No, I think from a perspective of the TBR income on a quarterly basis, I'm still kind of comfortable with that earlier number, which we look at, which is effectively the INR 400 crores, INR 450 crore to INR 600 crore kind of number for the year, okay, so effectively in the broad park range of on absolutes outside around about INR 100 crores to INR 110 crores a quarter, absolutes outside. And on a steady-state basis, I think INR 140 crores, INR 150 crores a quarter. I think last 2 quarters, as I said earlier, I have obviously got INR 80 crores, INR 90 crores of TBR extra over what we typically expect. But that's a little bit of a function of the market. So I would be cautious to guide that. It's not necessary to kind of look at that number on a quarterly basis.

But on a transaction income, are we now set given multiple asset classes, given multiple businesses, we are in multiple streams of brokerage, multiple other pools of ability to monetize? Are we comfortable with that INR 110 crores, INR 120 crores to INR 150 crores, INR 160 crores transaction number? I think the answer is yes.

[Aejas Lakhani, analyst]

Got it. Karan, second is, could you just give the split of equity and debt of the entire asset pool? Earlier, it was, I think, 55-45, what is it today?

[Karan Bhagat, executive]

I don't have that number, but I -- last I checked, it was in the region of 58% to 60% equities and 40% fixed income. Maybe just maybe 62-38 or thereabouts here. It's not going to change dramatically.

[Aejas Lakhani, analyst]

Got it. What would be the total pool of capital that is today invested in all the AIFs today, all put together today, maybe INR 1,000 crores, INR 1,200 crores?

[Karan Bhagat, executive]

INR 1,600-odd crores, approximately.

[Aejas Lakhani, analyst]

Okay. So that has gone up because of the incremental investments that you've had to make in the...

[Karan Bhagat, executive]

Yes. No, and some of our funds are getting -- we are also getting capital back through the year from our earlier funds. But I think it will be around 2.5% to 3% of the sponsor AUM. I think traditionally, it used to be 5% to 6%. We've got it down to down about 4% right now, where on a long-term basis, I think 2.5%, 3% will continue. So on a current INR 40,000 crores, I think, we would like to be in the region of INR 1,000 crores to INR 1,200 crores. There may be INR 400 crores, INR 500 crores extra, right?

[Aejas Lakhani, analyst]

Got it. Karan, 2 points that you mentioned earlier that I did not quite understand is the opportunity in the accredited investor PMS space and in ET Money, you spoke about the fractionalization opportunity. Could you expand on both those?

[Karan Bhagat, executive]

So I think on the first one, which is essentially on the -- sorry, what was the first question?

[Aejas Lakhani, analyst]

You said -- you spoke about the accredited investor...

[Karan Bhagat, executive]

Accredited investor, yes. Maybe, investor basically is -- it's a license where as an investor, you're putting in a minimum of INR 10 crores and you are an accredited investor. You can basically kind of buy unlisted stuff. Otherwise, on the PMS side, you're not allowed to buy any instrument, which is not listed, rated, you are not allowed to buy unlisted and therefore, you're not even allowed to buy either or any alternates or any unlisted.

But if you have -- if you're an accredited investor and you got yourself certified as an accredited investor, and the size of the investment is a minimum of INR 10 crores. you can create an AI PMS for that specific investment. That's essentially what the opportunity is there.

[Aejas Lakhani, analyst]

Okay. And we're planning something of this nature in...

[Karan Bhagat, executive]

We already would have around about INR 500 crores plus on the accredited investor PMS side.

[Aejas Lakhani, analyst]

Does this get classified in those customized multi-assets?

[Karan Bhagat, executive]

Yes. Yes.

[Aejas Lakhani, analyst]

Okay. Got it. Karan, 2 other things, you've not spoken about account aggregator for a bit. I think 1 year, 1.5 years back, you used to talk about it. Has that opportunity changed? Has it started to see fortification?

[Karan Bhagat, executive]

On the account aggregator side, we are looking -- we look at it more as a data input to report better analytics for our clients. I don't think so it's going to be by itself a stand-alone monetization opportunity yet. I think obviously, today, we work with a lot of software providers to be able to pull data for our clients for their investments across other advisers and give them a single reporting, and we bought this platform called Altiore for around about maybe $1 million 3 or 4 years back, and we've kind of worked a lot on it and developed it.

So something like Altiore will feed from account aggregator to get better information to the client, but account aggregator right now outside of mutual funds and direct stocks is still kind of not fully reporting everything yet. So I think it's still some time away for us to be able to use that to be able to give clients better analytics. But I think as and when the account aggregator use case gets develop, we'll hope to be among the first ones to be able to use that data point to be able to create a better report to show it to our clients.

[Aejas Lakhani, analyst]

Got it. No. What I meant was more from access to see prospective clients pool of capital I was talking about it from that said, but thank you for that, I got the context. And Karan, just one last thing is that we -- in the middle, I think 1 year, 1.5 years back, we started this IT endeavor to sort of go IT savvy. Is that project behind us? Has that rundown already taken place? And now is OpEx stabilized at these current levels?

[Karan Bhagat, executive]

I think broadly, fine with the OpEx, nothing dramatic. I think we are fairly in line with our budgets. I don't see really too much of OpEx changes. I think there will be a little bit of reduction in our legal cost of approximately, maybe INR 25 crores, INR 30 crores a year going forward, but that will get more or less absorbed if at all, with incremental marketing and administrative costs. So we have enough cushion to be able to kind of stay within our operating budgets.

[Aejas Lakhani, analyst]

Got it. And from an IT perspective, the investments that you made, all of those are behind us?

[Karan Bhagat, executive]

IT investments are never behind us. They're always there. But outside of that, on a steady-state basis, yes, nothing phenomenal. Nothing big there.

[Anil Mascarenhas, executive]

Next in line, we have Akash Vora.

[Unknown Analyst]

So 3 questions from my side. First being, what would be the total new flows you would be estimating for this year? And if you could bifurcate it across our vetted asset in different divisions and from the HNI segment? Secondly, we would like to understand the pros and cons of the budget and what impact would it have on our portfolios and our portfolios and our numbers? And thirdly, the reclassification that we have done from ARR to TBR, can we expect it to be a onetime or maybe the last time we would be doing this kind of an activity or something like that? Or we'll be able to -- we expect it to do more going ahead as well?

[Karan Bhagat, executive]

Thanks, Akash. I think quick response to all 3 questions. I think from an activity of ARR to TBR, it's only a onetime activity because we basically just done a simple reclassification of the inactive ARR to TBR so that the retentions on the active ARR can kind of come out absolutely clearly. And I think that's really on the first -- on the third question. On the total flows, like I said earlier, I think broadly 50% on the -- I think 50% of the flows on the ultra-high net worth side, around about 25% of the flows -- 30% of the flows on the asset management piece and 10% each potentially on the global business and the mid-market businesses the way I would look at it.

And from a budget impact, nothing crazy. I think only positive things from that aspect, especially the unlisted tax going down from 24% to around about 12.5%, I think definitely helps the business. And also the listed bonds being taxed at 12.5% will also be beneficial for our clients. So overall, I think from a budget perspective, overall clients were fairly enthused with the budget there.

[Anil Mascarenhas, executive]

We have a question from Aditya.

[Unknown Analyst]

Congratulations on a good set of numbers. Just one question. I wanted to understand about this INR 871 crores ARR net worth in the asset management. So what is like -- was there an outflow redemption or this is where you're comfortable at?

[Karan Bhagat, executive]

No, as we said earlier, I think our gross sales is around about INR 3,000-odd crores for the quarter. So effectively, the net flows of INR 900 crores is as a result of redemptions of around about INR 2,100 crores and -- sorry, INR 3,800 crores.

So I think overall, the redemptions are largely to a certain extent, a function of the redemptions from our earlier pre-IPO funds. So those can become patchy on a quarterly basis because we end up getting -- returning a little bit of chunky money in a quarter. But outside of that, as I said earlier, I think net flow number of around about INR 8,000 crores to INR 10,000 crores and a gross sales number of around about INR 14,000 crores to INR 15,000 crores is where we'll be comfortable on the asset management side.

[Anil Mascarenhas, executive]

Thank you. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, due to time constraints, that's all we have time for this afternoon. Thank you for joining us, and we look forward to hosting you again. Thank you.

[Karan Bhagat, executive]

Thank you. Thank you, everybody.