Interpump Group SpA

MIL:IP

Earnings Call Transcript 2022-Q1

[Operator]

Good afternoon. This is the Chorus Call conference operator. Welcome, and thank you for joining the Interpump's First Quarter 2022 Results Conference Call. [Operator Instructions]

At this time, I would like to turn the conference over to Ms. Elisabetta Cugnasca, Head of Investor Relations. Please go ahead, madam.

[Elisabetta Cugnasca, executive]

Thank you very much. Good afternoon or good morning according to your time zone, and welcome to Interpump Group First Quarter 2022 Financial Results Conference Call. Before leaving the stage to Mr. Marasi, Board member and Executive Director of the group, I would like to draw your attention to the disclaimer slide [indiscernible] in the annex part of the presentation. I hope you were able to download from our webcast.

Mr. Marasi?

[Fabio Marasi, executive]

Thanks, Ms. Cugnasca, and thank you, all of you for the attendance. When we met 3 months ago, we had some assumptions for 2022, assumptions based on a realistic assessment of both group characteristics and external situation. The latter one was characterized by some positive aspects. For example, I never seen before, customer demand. And some negative: COVID resurgence in a new mutation, inflationary trend and an increasing difficulty in the supply chain management. With sadness, I have to say that the external situation has worsened compared to our expectation due to the Russian attack to Ukraine that completely changed the geopolitical situation in the last 3 months. With calmness anyway, I have to say that the evaluation of the situation was correct. And even more important, that the group execution capability was better than expected as a result of the first quarter 2022 are evidence of.

We delivered a double-digit organic growth. We knew that the strong backlog that built in the past months would have supported us, especially in the first half of the year. But organic growth is the result from one side of the backlog and from the other side of the capability to deliver the backlog. The capability to keep together all company functions under these severe circumstances to manage the supply chain, to produce and to deliver to the customer. The capability at the end of the day is to transform orders in invoices. Something that was perhaps taken for granted in the past, but that now with the inflationary trend and the supply chain constraints that we are all facing, cannot absolutely take any longer for granted.

We achieved an EBITDA result to be proud of. We reinforced in the quarter countermeasures already implemented in the last part of 2021. And despite an acceleration of raw material, energies and logistic price increases, the margin dilution remains substantially aligned with the one of the previous quarters. Therefore, please allow me to go directly to the conclusion of my entire speech. And then to go back to the first quarter details.

The results of the first quarter of the year are a much better base for the entire year compared to what we thought the first quarter could have been. Some elements that I will describe you later on are increasing our visibility on the next quarters. And consequently, we believe that our high single-digit organic sales growth rate forecast for 2022 would become a double-digit growth EBITDA. And we are even more confident in our capability to protect and consolidate profitability, our commitment and focus for 2022 and not only.

Now let's go back to quarterly results, adding some updating on White Drive integration and group ESG evolution too. Sales are up by 30% on a total basis, up by more than 15%, excluding White Drive consolidation and close to 13% on an organic basis. Going into the details of this latter number, both divisions recorded a double-digit growth rate is perhaps redundant. To recall you that the 2 divisions are differently correlated to the cycle, have a different time rise and execution and therefore, a different evolution, especially on a quarterly basis. These business differences are exacerbated by COVID comparison. And therefore, the double-digit growth rate for both divisions, even at the quite close rate, 13% for Hydraulics and 11% for Water-Jetting is a very strong and comfortable result.

Going back to my introduction. This is not only the result of the backlog. It's the result of the execution capability of all of us and our companies. From one side, we increased the output despite all the difficulties you are aware of: production constraints, raw material availability, logistics disruption and COVID resurge, which impacted many factories, especially in Europe in January and February. On the other side, we were able to adjust our pricing policies without hampering relationship with clients and showing once again our capabilities to transfer to the market any material increase of the cost of goods sold.

Some details on the performance of the most important factor application. In the first quarter, agriculture and forestry was up by more than 25%. Lifting was up by 36%, construction up by 35%, cleaning up by more than 10%, general dealers up by more than 20% revenue. Moving to EBITDA. It's important to underline that EBITDA was up by almost 25% on total basis, with a margin of 23.9%, excluding White Drive and 23.4%, including EBITDA. We went on in the quarter. Better we reinforce countermeasures already adopted in the past quarters and the result, margin dilution remains stable despite a huge increase of important raw material and manufacturing costs in the quarter, with unbelievable spikes on energy prices, in particular in the month of March as a consequence of the war in Ukraine.

In term of countermeasures, I already described you group policies approach. A few words now on another group approach would not always, perhaps almost never, is appreciated from a financial point of view, the strong inventory. I'm perfectly aware that the free cash flow generation of this quarter will be source of complaint from a financial point of view, but I'm taking the liberty to suggest you once again to look at inventory from an industrial point of view, and to consider the manufacturing flexibility and the possibility to realize more finished products that the support of a strong and well-managed inventory may grant.

Not to mention that in a strong inflationary context, anything that we have been able to buy so far costed us less than the current market price and proved to be the best possible investment so far. With the same industrial approach, I'm asking you to look at CapEx, which is a significant result, significantly higher as compared to the first quarter '21 due to projects launched in the past 2 years to expand our production capacity. Not only in terms of production line and machineries, but moreover, in terms of land and building, in particular, for the completion of the new quarter of Muncie Power Products in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

As already mentioned, 2022 commitments include White Drive integration and the consolidation and alignment of group sustainability activities and process. Starting with White Drive, you probably recall that our integration plan had the 3 targets for 2022. First, the transfer of 4 production lines of Eaton and increase the production capacity in our place. Second, to share Interpump best practices in term of production planning and customer service, further exploiting cross-selling opportunities. 2 of the 4 manufacturing lines, the motor line ones were transferred on time before March and accordingly to our plans. The other 2 will be moved before summer.

The choice to adopt a 2-phase approach is driven by the fact that this transfer by definition are creating disruption and inefficiencies from an operational point of view, and we aim to minimize this negative effect and the impact on our customer base. In the meantime, we went on with the increase of manufacturing capacity with significant investment that in the last 6 months amounted to EUR 7 million for White Drive. In terms of best practice sharing, always making a comparison with last October when we closed the transaction. In the European factories, the weekly output increased by around 10% in only 6 months. Obviously, this comparison cannot be done for the American factories due to the line transfer underway.

At last, due to the familiarity between WALVOIL and White Drive businesses, the 2 sales and commercial teams started to work together, learning from each other characteristics of respective products and customers. Even more, operations and sales and commercial joint activities are important to help our White Drive colleagues to understand our managerial and cultural approach with a particular focus on the soft element [indiscernible] Interpump and White Drive were really, really distant at closing. In Europe, this cultural difference is becoming smaller and smaller. In the U.S., the transfer of the production line is slowing a little bit the process due to the related organizational changes needed.

To close with White Drive, some performance indicators. Sales for the quarter are significantly above the sales of the first quarter 2021. And moreover, are even higher, a quite challenging budget by more than 10%. Profitability is still below Hydraulic division benchmark, but the progression is constant and consistent despite all the already mentioned inefficiencies and extraordinary costs that we are incurring in order to complete the transition. Both these results, as was to be mentioned, were obtained without any price adjustment in the quarter. Price increase that has been applied from April 1, and that should contribute to expand EBITDA margin in the second quarter of the year and on. Therefore, I will say that White Drive results and integration are on track.

I will leave Ms. Cugnasca to comment on the ESG updating.

[Elisabetta Cugnasca, executive]

Thank you, Mr. Marasi. Only few words due to the fact that the argument is not a news. Last 29 of April, group ordinary shareholder meeting approved 2022 - 2024 incentive plan. And compared to the previous one, I would like to highlight 2 difference, both related to performance targets we achieved. For the vesting and therefore the exercisability of the option, definition of precise financial parameters, sales and EBITDA, the introduction of ESG targets. As you know, we are preparing our first ESG plan. We decided not to waste its finalization, but to play advance.

Please, Dr. Marasi.

[Fabio Marasi, executive]

Before my closing remarks, a few words on Draintech. The small acquisition that we have announced in April, small but profitable and more important, perfectly in line with our power transmission industrial project. A project started in 2019 with the acquisition of Reggiana Riduttori and Transtecno and develop with improving results step-by-step in 2020, 2021 and now.

Repeating myself, the first quarter 2022 results are a much better base for the entire year compared to what we thought the first quarter 2022 could have been. And on top of this, I want to underline that the backlog is gaining soundness month after month, and this was absolutely not predictable after the massive increase between 2020 and 2021. The year-to-date backlog is up by close to 20% on a never seen before level. Moreover, the group just demonstrated its capability to transfer backlog in organic growth once again. Countermeasure is adopted to protect profitability are kicking in, both the ones implemented in late '21 or start 2022 and the most recent one, for example, the White Drive price increase implemented in April.

After the resources between January and February, COVID pandemic seems stabilized in Europe. Obviously, situation in China and especially in the Shanghai airport and area is giving concern, but in term of logistics, not in terms of labor. From a broader and more strategic point of view, we are stronger, more balanced group compared to the past. As you are aware, we faced the difficult years in our history. The 2 most difficult one I recall are the 2008 - 2009 financial crisis and the most recent one driven by COVID. But as you know, we react properly in both situations. For sure, our reaction was better in the most recent one, as EBITDA margin and organic growth evolution demonstrated.

And this is because to our never-ending growth part, we became bigger, more diversified, more flexible and therefore, less risky and less dependent on the business cycle. Having said that, we are gaining confidence for the next months of the year. Our organic growth rate, we are confident that from the high single-digit organic growth forecasted for 2022 will become a double-digit growth rate. And we are also confident about our capability to protect and consolidate the profitability. We hope that this set of results and our track record will make you share our view.

We are now disposed for any questions you may have.

[Operator]

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from Matteo Bonizzoni with Kepler.

[Matteo Bonizzoni, analyst]

Yes. I have 2 questions. The first one is on your last indication as regards to organic growth, just to check. The first quarter organic growth, excluding Forex, was 12.6%. When you are referring about organic growth double-digit, you continue to refer on organic growth, excluding Forex or you also included the Forex with that because if it remains double digit for the full year starting from 12.6 in Q1, it should be strong for the second half. So very resilient. Just to check if your organic growth definition is extra or including the Forex. And then the last question, just regard White Drive.

I was calculating, anybody can calculate that from your disclosure in the presentation, White Drive should have the margin between 19% and 20%. So basically, 200 basis points more or less below the average of the Hydraulic division. You also say that you are still in a sort of transition phase that you increased the prices as of April. Just to model, the ambition for White Drive would be in some quarter to reach the same profitability of the Hydraulic division or a different one?

[Fabio Marasi, executive]

Thank you, Matteo. Regarding organic growth, the expectations are for a double-digit organic growth, excluding Forex, because we always have commented organic growth without Forex and with the same exchange rate. Regarding White drive, more interesting, you are correct regarding your calculation about EBITDA -- the current EBITDA margin. Approximately 200 basis points below the Hydraulics division ones. We are very -- and we have already mentioned in the presentation that we are facing a lot of inefficiencies and [ extraordinary ] costs due to this integration process. And we are very confident that the EBITDA margin of White Drive may be at least aligned to the one of the Hydraulics division. I would say between the one of the Hydraulics division and between the average of the group in few quarter.

[Operator]

So the next question is from Alessandro Tortora with Mediobanca.

[Alessandro Tortora, analyst]

Fabio. Let's say, 2 questions from my side. The first one is related to the indication you made before on the double digit. Is it fair to assume that the step-up from the high single digit to the, let's say, double digit is chiefly related basically to the price component? And then if I have to think about the 2 divisions, is it much more price-driven, the Hydraulics division instead of the Water-Jetting? This is the first question. I don't know if you want to go one by one.

[Fabio Marasi, executive]

Yes. Alessandro, regarding the first part, the shift up in our expectation is partially driven by the increase in prices that we are applying even now. There is a price effect. But it is also the consequence of our capability to deliver more and more week after week because with our industrial approach, we have defined -- last year as a consequence of the acceleration of the demand that we have been seeing from the start of 2021, we have defined an important investment plan and then we are stepping up our manufacturing capacity month after month. And considering the very impressive backlog that we have today, in particular in the Hydraulics division, being able to deliver organic growth is much more the consequence of the possibility to make more products and to complete more products instead of having the orders.

We are full of order. The only focus now is on increasing the manufacturing capability and the output. And then we have been particularly satisfied about the results of the first quarter, considering that for 1 month [ and a half ], the COVID situation impacted a lot, in particularly in Europe, the number of people and the level of absenteeism in our factories. And then having been able to increase also in quantities and to continuously increase week after week our manufacturing capacity, thanks to the activation of new machines. Thanks to the arrival of new machines to the flexibility of our model is giving us the possibility to deliver more and more and to achieve stronger and more sound results.

Regarding Hydraulics, regarding the difference -- the different price effect of the 2 divisions, I would say that it's not so significant because I have in mind, for example, that for Interpump brand, the price increase effect is higher than some of the company in the Hydraulics division, considering the kind of raw material brass above all that the Interpump is using, and that has increased significantly. Then I really believe that the difference in terms of price effect or price increase is made by -- or is explained by the different components and the trend, the inflationary trend of the different raw materials used for making the different products. And there is -- there are no particular distinction by division, I would say.

[Alessandro Tortora, analyst]

Okay. Then the second question was on, let's say, the indication to product and consolidated profitability. When you refer to profitability, do we need to think about, let's say, the EBITDA margin? Or are you referring, let's say, to the absolute, let's say, EBITDA that you're going to achieve this year?

[Fabio Marasi, executive]

Okay. We are always referring to the EBITDA margin because this is our most important focus. And when we commented 3 months ago, our idea to protect and to activate all the measure to be aligned with our historical profitability or with 2021 profitability, we were referring to EBITDA, and particularly to EBITDA margin. EBITDA margin at last year was EUR 23.7 million. We were aware, of course, about the dilution that White Drive would have determined, so far approximately 50 basis points. But considering the very good and very strong results also in terms of EBITDA margin for the first quarter, we are very confident that together with the normalization of the result of White Drive, we will be able to protect our EBITDA margin for the whole year.

[Alessandro Tortora, analyst]

Okay. And then lastly is on the backlog. When you said backlog is up 20%, you refer year-on-year or you take as, let's say, reference the full year 2021 level?

[Fabio Marasi, executive]

No. It's from December 31 to April 20. That is really, really strong and increasing also during the course of this year.

[Operator]

Your next question is from Domenico Ghilotti with Equita.

[Domenico Ghilotti, analyst]

My first question is just on the Q2 outlook that you have provided. When you say excellent or in line with Q1, are you -- well, on the top line, I presume that you are seeing still a double-digit given the guidance that you already provided on profitability. You should assume that you are seeing sort of dilution not far away from [ Q1 ]. So first of all, on that. The second on the double-digit that you are seeing for full year. So double-digit means actually accelerating because the comparison will be more challenging, if I look compared to 2019. So actually, what is driving your confidence that -- you have been mentioning so higher backlog. But I'm trying to understand on resiliency of the order intake and the resiliency of the order backlog, don't you see a deceleration given the general slowdown that we are seeing on the economy?

[Fabio Marasi, executive]

Okay. Regarding the first question about the Q2. Of course, it's too early to comment Q2. We'll do it in 3 months. But we are expecting the continuation of the trends that we have seen in the first quarter. I mean when we were referring to the excellent expectation for the second quarter, we are expecting a double-digit organic growth. And I confirm a dilution not far away from the one that we have seen in the first quarter, then you were writing of consideration. Regarding the acceleration for the remaining quarter, I don't -- I doesn't want to be -- I don't want to exaggerate, of course. But we are very confident after what we have seen in the first 3 months, in the first quarter, considering the backlog that has increased. And considering our capability to develop our manufacturing capability that as I said before, today is the most important concern and most important constraint to realize more turnover, more business and more organic growth.

Considering what we see -- considering what we have seen so far, we are very confident for the coming months. Of course, we cannot guarantee that this very positive situation will last forever, and then that the geopolitical situation or the inflationary trends will not determine a change in this situation. But so far, what we are seeing is exactly like this. Also because of -- sorry to interrupt, Domenico, several of the sectors in which we are present are really taking benefits from the situation. I have a one clear example. That is the agriculture business. And the agriculture market and application is a very, very important one for our group. And considering the inflation that is generally is also characterizing the agriculture component. It is true that farmers or people exposed to this business are making very good profits and then are willing to invest in new machines that are more efficient, more performing and better.

[Domenico Ghilotti, analyst]

Just to be sure. So what is the level of commitment of clients on the orders that are placed in current quarters? So if there is a sharp slowdown in their sales, can they just call and say, "Okay, let's postpone some orders and deliveries?"

[Fabio Marasi, executive]

No. Every one of our customer are -- is pushing us to deliver more and more components and more and more products. Someone is even starting discussing about 2023 forecast. Okay. But I don't want to take into consideration this kind of discussion. It's way too early. But the general pressure and the general feeling is that everyone is moving full steam ahead in this environment, despite this environment.

[Domenico Ghilotti, analyst]

Okay. And my last question. On the M&A side, you were quite keener to execute some M&A in 2022. It's still the case? Pipeline is still good?

[Fabio Marasi, executive]

Absolutely, yes. We are seeing a lot of opportunities, considering that the White Drive integration is moving well and on track. We are really prepared to do something more in the course of this year, then you will see news. We are expecting news.

[Operator]

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from Michele Baldelli with BNP Paribas.

[Michele Baldelli, analyst]

I have some few questions. The first one is to understand a little bit because you were pretty clear about the reiteration. So EBITDA margin year-on-year should not go down despite in the first quarter was down. And this means that in the coming quarters, there should be a good recovery. Just if you can confirm this. Then on the backlog, I have seen this strong growth. I was wondering if you can give us some color or details between the 2 divisions. You see stronger growth in one division compared to the other and in case which one? And if you can elaborate also by how much. And then the last one was on the -- your [ optimism ] by segment. If you can just give us 2 or 3 segments that really stands out as the most promising in your view in the next 12 months.

[Fabio Marasi, executive]

Okay. Regarding the first question, this is the most important one. I am not saying -- I have not said that we will do exactly the same EBITDA margin that we did in 2021, not now and not 3 months ago because we have already commented that we will work, And we have as a target, we have the visibility to protect our profitability. But protect is not exactly the same than we are working hard. Also considering that White Drive is slightly diluting our margins. Then we are confident, but it's too early to premise what will happen in the second part of the year in terms of profitability.

We are very satisfied about the results of the first quarter and about our capability to immediately transfer the price increases. And through price increases, the increase of cost and the increase of energy prices, the increase of logistics factor that are happening into the market. But it's too early to say that we will be able to deliver exactly the same number. Regarding the backlog, I would say that backlog is stronger in Hydraulics, also because of the different business model between Hydraulics and Water-Jetting. Considering the end customers and considering the end markets, Hydraulics is having a stronger backlog increase and a stronger visibility coming from our customer and coming from the end markets.

The most important and the stronger end markets in this world are for sure agriculture, but also construction equipment, air moving machines and lifting equipment are very, very strong. I mean, double-digit growth in terms of demand coming from our customers.

[Operator]

The next question is from Fraser Donlon with Berenberg.

[Fraser Donlon, analyst]

Just one question from my side. I saw you included this slide in the presentation about the power transmission segment. When it comes to that in terms of like scale, margins, synergies, is there still a lot more work to do? Or is that kind of -- is that segment, let's say, complete? I'd just be interested to have your conceptual ideas on that.

[Fabio Marasi, executive]

No, it's not completely -- thank you, Fraser, for your question. That is a very interesting one. No, this is -- this project is not completed at all. We are very proud about what we have done in 2.5 years because we acquired Reggiana Riduttori in October 2019. And despite what happened in the middle, COVID and everything else, we have been able to grow substantially from 0 to approximately EUR 200 million turnover. We have been able to develop the EBITDA margin and the profitability of the companies that we have acquired and consolidated from around 20% to around 24%. That is a spectacular number. But we really believe that we have a lot to do, and we have a lot of opportunities to further consolidate this business in Italy, for sure, but not only.

Considering that the power transmission and the reduction, the award is big, approximately EUR 8 billion to EUR 10 billion a year in terms of turnover in terms of business, is very fragmented and is prepared to be consolidated. There are a lot of companies with EUR 30 million to EUR 50 million up to EUR 100 million of number. That can be very interesting for us to be aggregated, also in order to complete our product along and to complete the coverage of the entire market.

[Operator]

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from Bruno Permutti with Intesa Sanpaolo.

[Bruno Permutti, analyst]

I have some questions regarding price increases. So if you can elaborate a little bit on the price increases you expect in the next months. If I have one, well understood White Drive will increase prices since April. But if you can give us an idea of the average price increase you expect for the whole group in the next few months and possibly if you have some timing for this and some feedback from your customers. A second one was related to the stock level. So if I have well understood, the net working capital increase we saw in the first quarter was related to some stocking some inventories for the future production. So do you believe that your customers are doing the same. So you have visibility on the level of stock at your customers? And the last one was related to the sourcing. Is there any logistics or any troubles in managing the sourcing of the components we use or that problem is definitely solved?

[Fabio Marasi, executive]

Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Bruno. Regarding price increase, when I commented 3 months ago, the high single-digit organic growth that we were expecting for the year, we commented that approximately 40% was price effect and the remaining 60% was volumes effect. Then the price effect was estimated around 3%. Now after what happened in the last few months, I would say that the price increase effect will have an impact between 5% and 6% on our consolidated sales. Then part of the revised target is explained by the price increases.

The question regarding destocking that we are doing and if this restocking is being done also by our customers. Our impression is not this one, in particular, for the big OEMs. Big OEMs are under severe stress to deliver as soon as they can the orders that they have received. Then the big OEMs are not building up inventory. It seems that in particular in the end markets and application that I've mentioned before, there is a real very strong demand driven by different aspects and different reason, but we are not expecting an extra stock at our customer level.

Regarding the supply chain issues and management, unfortunately, the situation and the troubles are not over, not at all. Not to mention the electronic components. And of course, thankfully, we are not really exposed to these components, but we have some problems and noise to find it. We still have a concern about cast iron and many important raw materials that we are using. Then we are, of course, very, very focused and the entire structure is focused every day to manage properly the supply chain to negotiate the price increase, to negotiate the right contract in order to secure the availability of raw materials and component to be worked on our factories.

[Operator]

[Operator Instructions] The next question is a follow-up from Alessandro Tortora with Mediobanca.

[Alessandro Tortora, analyst]

Yes. Just, let's say, one question on the competitive landscape. Do you think that, let's say, the company in such a, let's say, difficult context, is gaining market share also because as a sort of a much higher flexibility or higher capability to deliver? Just to understand, let's say, all -- everything we discussed about higher order intake and also the increase, let's say, in volume, you mentioned before. So just to understand if you are also having some market share, thanks to the, let's say, operational flexibility.

[Fabio Marasi, executive]

Thank you, Alessandro, for this question. I believe that the answer is yes. Absolutely, yes. I believe that we are gaining market share in this environment, considering our flexibility, considering our manufacturing flexibility and considering also our inventory or the flexibility that our inventory is giving to our companies. I've already commented a couple of times, the manufacturing capability constraint that we have found in White Drive because of the lack of flexibility that the previous order that is a far bigger group in comparison with Interpump used to operate with. In this environment, if you are flexible, if you are able to support the customer, if you are able to deliver with a decent time horizon, you gain market share and you gain business because everyone is really desperate to source components for their own assembly lines for their own manufacturing activities.

[Operator]

The next question is a follow-up from Michele Baldelli with BNP Paribas.

[Michele Baldelli, analyst]

Sorry for being on this call with another question. But on the backlog, when you say that the Hydraulics division is growing faster, is it even excluding the White Drive backlog? So if you exclude the trend of White Drive backlog, it still is growing more than 20%. I just wanted to be sure that we are still [indiscernible] growth of the backlog.

[Fabio Marasi, executive]

Absolutely, yes, considering that when I commented 20% growth in the backlog was compared with December 31, that already included White Drive. And those are -- White drive, of course, is super strong, super big.

[Michele Baldelli, analyst]

Sorry, because I thought that it was not something [ that you see] year-on-year. Sorry.

[Fabio Marasi, executive]

No, no. Michele, it was like-for-like.

[Michele Baldelli, analyst]

Okay. Great. And on the margin side, another consolidation, if you may. Can we have some sort of severe -- because I remember that in the last call, you reserved to have EBITDA around EUR 445 million plus/minus EUR 5 million. Is it something that you can share with us a little bit of update on this? Or you are still thinking that could be reasonable that kind of level?

[Elisabetta Cugnasca, executive]

Sorry. Mr. Baldelli, we lost the half of your question. Can you please perhaps go a bit closer to the microphone?

[Michele Baldelli, analyst]

Yes, sure. No, I was referring to the EBITDA in absolute terms. If you can give us a little bit of flavor on the absolute level because if I'm not wrong, you already referred to a certain level, if I'm not wrong, EUR 445 million, plus/minus EUR 5 million for the fiscal year. Is it something that you already feel that could be updated or it's still too premature?

[Fabio Marasi, executive]

Okay. Clear. We have not commented the EBITDA on absolute terms in reality. I should review the numbers considering the higher-than-expected organic growth, but I believe that we will not be that far from this number.

[Operator]

[Operator Instructions] Ms. Cugnasca, gentleman, there are no more questions registered at this time.

[Elisabetta Cugnasca, executive]

Okay. Thank you very much for everybody. We hope that our results have given you the same confidence on the full year that they giving us, and we hope to speak with you at the beginning of August. Thank you.

[Operator]

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for joining. The conference is now over. You may disconnect your telephones. Thank you.