Hang Seng Bank Ltd

HKEX:11

Earnings Call Analysis

Hang Seng Bank Grows Profits and Income

Hang Seng Bank has reported a substantial rise in profitability and income, showcasing the success of their business transformation strategy. The bank's net operating income before credit impairment charges grew by 29%, while attributable profit surged by 79% compared to the previous year. Net interest income saw robust growth, with the net interest margin rising by 62 basis points to 2.09%. Wealth management income increased by 10% year-over-year and spiked by 40% compared to the second half of 2022, contributing to diversification of income streams. Operational efficiency improved, illustrated by an 8.3 percentage point enhancement in the cost efficiency ratio to 35.9%. Dividends for the first half of 2023 totaled $2.20 per share. Additionally, mobile and Internet banking users grew significantly, and the bank achieved a year-on-year customer loans and advances growth of 4%. However, there was a strategic 4% decline in the loan balance due to de-risking activities.

Robust Financial Performance with Significant Growth

The company continues to show strong growth momentum in the first half of the year, an affirming sign that the business transformation strategy centered around growth, sustainability, and innovation is paying off. Net operating income before expected credit losses and impairment charges grew by a remarkable 29%, while net profit soared by 79%. Notable achievements included the launch of various digital offerings and financial products, such as a renminbi counter, participation in a central bank digital currency pilot program, and the first NFT wallet in Hong Kong's banking industry. Wealth management business, which is seen as a key driver for future diversification of income, delivered a 10% increase year-over-year and a substantial 40% rise compared to the second half of 2022.

Enhanced Deposits and Operational Efficiency

A strategic focus on deposit spread and net interest margin (NIM) led to an increase in net interest income and an improvement in NIM by 62 basis points, reaching 2.09%. This enhanced margin performance reflects a proactive approach in asset and liability management alongside the revival in travel, trade, and consumer activities. The cost efficiency ratio improved significantly by 8.3 percentage points to 35.9%, testifying to the investments made in technology and infrastructure leading to better service experiences targeted at segment growth. The accomplishments in operational efficiency align with a commitment to maintaining a leading position in customer-centric products like mortgages, cards, and personal loans, contributing to a 4% growth in customer loans and advances.

Dividend Payout and Wealth Management Success

Investors might be interested in the declaration of a second interim dividend of $1.10 per share, leading to a total first-half distribution of $2.20 per share. This was backed by a significant 25% growth in the number of high net worth customers and an impressive 132% increase in annualized new premiums for the company's insurance offerings. Leveraging digital platforms fully also resulted in a 19% increase in investment services income against the prior half, emphasizing the strategic growth in the wealth and personal banking sector.

Strategic Focus Amid Market Turbulence

Despite overall challenges such as an 8% decrease in customer deposits and a decline in fee income from credit facilities and trade, the company's liquidity remains robust at a 230.6% liquidity coverage ratio, significantly above the regulatory threshold. Noninterest income showed a slight year-over-year growth of 1%, with operating expenses rising by 5% due to investments aimed at enhancing service capacity and operational efficiency. Expected credit losses and other impairment charges saw an 8% reduction compared to the previous year, indicating an active de-risking strategy. The company's profit before tax rose by a splendid 71%, and attributable profit by 79%. Earnings per share also upped by 83%, painting a solid financial gain in the face of dynamic market conditions.

Moderate Expectations for Net Interest Margin

Looking ahead, the company's management expressed cautious optimism for a moderate increase in net interest margin (NIM) for the second half of the year. They intend to manage a delicate balance between acquiring deposits for liquidity and the cost implications it could have on profitability. With liquidity ratios so high, the focus will be on strategic customer targeting and acquisition rather than aggressive market share pursuits. Additionally, the company has seen its CASA balances drop in favor of time deposits, which raises a question about strategies for wealth management and corporate loan growth. Nevertheless, with tactical solutions and targeted segments in mind, the management plans to navigate the mix of market competition, interest rates, and customer preferences carefully.

Earnings Call Transcript 2023-Q2

[Shuk Man Law, executive]

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for joining Hang Seng Bank's interim results announcement.

On the floor with me are our Executive Director and Chief Executive, Ms. Diana Cesar; Executive Director and Chief Financial Officer, Ms. Say Pin Saw; Chief Risk and Compliance Officer, Ms. Kathy Cheung; Head of Commercial Banking, Mr. Donald Lam; Head of Wealth and Personal Banking, Ms. Rannie Lee; Head of Global Markets, Ms. Liz Chow; Head of Global Banking, Ms. Rose Cho; and Vice Chairman and Chief Executive of Hang Seng Bank China, Mr. Ryan Song.

Now I hand over to Diana to start the presentation. Diana, please.

[Diana Ferreira Cesar, executive]

Thank you. Thank you, Betty, and good afternoon, and thank you for joining us today. I presume it's been a very hectic and busy day for yourself, and it must have been really hot out there. So thank you for joining us here.

I will begin with a brief overview of our first half performance before handing over to Say Pin to take you through the details of our financial results.

I'm pleased to report that we continued to accelerate long-term growth momentum in the first half. This demonstrates that our business transformation strategy, which focuses on growth, sustainability and innovation as top priorities, is working.

Year-on-year, net operating income before a change in expected credit losses and other credit impairment charges grew by 29%, and attributable profit was up 79%.

We recorded strong growth in net interest income. By proactively managing our assets and liabilities, we achieved an enhanced deposit spread and improved our net interest margin by 62 basis points to 2.09%.

We responded swiftly and effectively to the opportunities created by the revival in travel, trade and consumer activities with the reopening of the mainland-Hong Kong boundary.

Wealth management business is a key long-term growth driver that is helping us diversify our income stream. We increased wealth management income by 10% year-on-year. And compared with the second half of 2022, we increased wealth management income by 40%. This indicates we are using our strong service proposition, cross-boundary connectivity and trusted brand to good effect as demand increases across the Greater Bay Area.

Our investments in our people, technology and business infrastructure have made us more agile and more closely connected across our business and with our customers. This is resulting in better service experiences, which is driving growth in targeted segments. And these investments are also helping us deliver greater value. Our cost efficiency ratio improved by 8.3 percentage points to 35.9% compared to the previous year.

We have a few notable first half achievements we'd like to share with you. First, we were amongst the first batch of companies to launch a renminbi counter under the stock exchange of Hong Kong's new Hong Kong dollar-renminbi dual counter model.

Second, we are the only bank to have 3 e-Hong Kong dollar use cases selected by the HKMA for its e-Hong Kong dollar pilot program. This underlines our leadership in supporting local and cross-boundary central bank digital currency development.

We opened our first mainland cross-boundary wealth management center in Guangzhou and a new business banking center in Lai Chi Kok. The Hang Seng TECH Index Exchange-traded Fund was approved for southbound trading under the ETF Connect scheme. Hang Seng Investment Management now manages 3 of the 6 ETFs that are currently eligible for southbound trading.

We also arranged Hong Kong's first green export credit insurance, supporting greater supply chain sustainability, and made our first social loan, which is financing of a construction of transitional housing for low-income families and a primary school reprovisioning project. We also launched the Hang Seng Stock Connect China A Low Carbon Index ETF, which was Hong Kong's first low-carbon themed A-Share ETF.

Last, but not the least, we launched HS3, which was Hong Kong banking industry's first NFT wallet.

Our directors have declared a second interim dividend of $1.10 per share, and this brings the total distribution for the first half of 2023 to $2.20 per share.

In our Wealth and Personal Banking business, we continued to focus on providing highly tailored wealth management solutions. This included the launch of our innovative new Prestige Banking Family+ account to meet the growing demand for generational wealth services. Our enhanced offerings helped us achieve a 25% year-on-year increase in high net worth, mass affluent as well as emerging affluent customers.

All of our investment services are now available on our digital platforms. This assisted our efforts to capture business as market activity increased. Investment Services Income was up 1% year-on-year but, more notably, 19% against the second half of 2022, with notable increases in revenue from fixed income and structured investment products as well as retail investment funds.

Customers responded favorably to our new flagship insurance product and passive income wealth solutions. Annualized new premiums increased by 132%. Our new exclusive distribution arrangement with international insurer Chubb in Hong Kong enhances our ability to meet the very diverse need of our customers.

Simpler, faster and more secure digital journeys for customers led to a 16%, 1-6, year-on-year increase in monthly active mobile banking users and a 173% increase in digital retail transaction count.

Across our digital channels, we are strengthening customer relationships with more personalized messaging at key touch points. We're also deepening engagement with different types of customers through value-added lifestyle services, such as our Olive wellness app.

We maintained a leading position in mortgages, cards and personal loans, which helped us grow customer loans and advances by 4% year-on-year. Our new MMPower credit card offers a flexible cross-channel rewards program and is the first credit card in Hong Kong to use Mastercard's Touch Card design that assists the visually impaired customers.

In our wholesale business, we made it easier for customers to take actions and move quickly on opportunities created by the upturn in economic activities.

Our online trade application and loan management services offer customers faster processing times and more convenient services. our new digital international collection for e-commerce solution and the introduction of QR code collection for mobile banking are assisting clients on the payment front. Our new business banking center offers customers the opportunities to learn more about using emerging technology to enhance their business performance.

The digital service adoption rate amongst new-to-bank customers in the first half was remarkably 98%. Active mobile and Internet banking users grew by 59% and by 22%, respectively, year-on-year.

For SME clients, we are partnering with leading providers in other service sectors to provide an all-in-one business cube solution. We're also collaborating with 4 other banks and Hong Kong Export Credit Insurance Corp. to enhance insurance coverage for exporters.

With multi-market account opening as a major pain point for customers, our new unified account opening service offers seamless onboarding in the Greater Bay Area for businesses with cross-boundary banking needs.

These and other initiatives drove a 15%, 1-5, year-on-year increase in new account acquisitions, and our number of new mainland customers more than doubled in the first half against the whole of 2022.

Global Banking delivered industry-specific total service solutions to capture new business and achieve a 16% increase in current and savings deposits compared with last year-end.

Good growth in Global Banking's bond management and debt capital market origination business, as well as effective collaboration with the Global Markets' teams to provide hedging solutions for clients, are advancing our efforts to diversify our long-term revenue streams.

Global Markets business also made solid progress with income diversification initiatives, resulting in a 55% increase in noninterest income.

Strong equities-related wealth sales and a new revenue stream from interest rate structuring drove good year-on-year growth in income from equities as well as rates-related structured products. We captured opportunities arising from market movements to record a solid increase in option trading income. We also achieved notable growth in revenue from rates trading.

The growth in noninterest income largely offset the decline in net interest income, which fell by 36%, due mainly to the unfavorable market environment for Markets Treasury.

Hang Seng China captured opportunities created by improved consumer and investment sentiment. Total operating income from Wealth and Personal Banking business in the Greater Bay Area rose by 20% and the Prestige Banking customer base grew by 5% year-on-year. Global Markets recorded positive momentum with 80%, 8-0 percent, growth in trading income and sales income up by 47%.

Total loan balance size declined by 15% compared to last year-end due mainly to our de-risking actions related to the commercial real estate sector. This had an impact on our overall total operating income, which was down by 12% year-on-year. Hang Seng China's profit before tax for the first half was $821 million.

I will now hand over to Say Pin, who will walk you through our first half financial performance in greater details. Over to you, Say Pin.

[Say Saw, executive]

Thank you, Diana. Assisted by rising market interest rates, we recorded a 42% year-on-year rise in net interest income to $15,191 million. As a result, net interest margin improved by 62 basis points to 2.09%.

Our loan balance declined by 4% due mainly to the further de-risking of our mainland corporate real estate portfolio and relatively weak wholesale loan demand.

The time deposit market remained keenly competitive in the first half. With our ample liquidity, we focused on growing our customer base to current accounts and savings accounts. As a result, current accounts and savings accounts as a percentage of total deposits was up by 2% compared with 2022 year-end. Overall, customer deposits fell by 8%. However, at 230.6%, our liquidity coverage ratios remain comfortably above the minimum statutory requirement of 100%.

With the lifting of COVID restrictions and the reopening of border, we responded swiftly to the upturn in activity and changing needs of customers. We achieved 27% growth in fee income from card services. However, with weaker demand for loans, fee income from credit facilities and trade were down by 17% and 33%, respectively.

Year-on-year, noninterest income grew by 1%. Compared with second half of 2022, However, we recorded a growth of 15%.

Investments to enhance our capacity to serve customers better and improve operational efficiency saw our operating expenses rise by 5% year-on-year to $7,156 million. While keeping a close eye on overall cost containment, we will continue to strategically deploy resources in areas that will support our long-term growth.

Expected credit losses and other credit impairment charges fell by 8% year-on-year to $1,924 million. Against the second half of 2022, expected credit losses and other credit impairment charges fell by 66%. We are continuing to actively de-risk our portfolio and will remain highly vigilant to any further developments.

As at 30th June 2023, gross impaired loans and advances as a percentage of gross loans and advances to customers was 2.85% compared with 1.92% a year earlier and 2.56% at 2022 year-end. The increase in nonperforming loan ratio was caused by the decline in our gross loans balance and new NPL downgrades in the first half.

Profit before tax rose by 71% year-on-year to $10,961 million. Attributable profit increased by 79% to $9,827 million. Earnings per share were up 83% at $4.99 per share. At a customer group level, profit before tax for Wealth and Personal Banking doubled. Commercial Banking and Global Banking recorded increases of 48% and 45%, respectively. Profit before tax for Global Markets was down by 9%.

Return on average ordinary shareholders' equity was 12.8% compared with 7.1% for the first half of 2022. Return on average total assets was 1.1% against 0.6% for the first half of last year.

On 30th June 2023, our common equity Tier 1 capital ratio was 16.8%, our Tier 1 capital ratio was 18.5% and our total capital ratio was 20%.

The directors have declared a second interim dividend of $1.10 per share, bringing total first half 2023 dividend to be HKD 2.20, a 57% up from first half of 2022.

On 1st January this year, we adopted the Hong Kong Financial Reporting Standards 17. For detail on how this impacts the financial figures for the first half of the last year, please refer -- we have an Appendix 1, which we will subsequently put on to the website. Please refer to that. It is also disclosed in our pack.

I will now pass back to Diana for her concluding remarks.

[Diana Ferreira Cesar, executive]

Thank you, Say Pin. Our business transformation strategy is yielding tangible results. We're delivering better service experiences, more tailored solutions and greater choices to our customers. This is winning us more clients as well as new business.

Our customers are demonstrating trust in our brand and our business development direction. We will build further growth momentum by providing them with more of what they want.

We're connecting customers with new opportunities presented by the tremendous potential of the Greater Bay Area. When our Tsim Sha Tsui and Shenzhen centers open next week, we will have 6 cross-boundary wealth management centers in key GBA cities. More digital services and seamless all-in-one solutions will make it faster and easier for our wholesale customers to get business done and expand their operations in the region. We're the first bank in Hong Kong to offer mainland customers a commercial banking e-Sign service. These initiatives will help drive new customer acquisitions and grow our noninterest income base.

Customer-centric service innovation remains vital to our strategy. Last month, we opened our first Future Banking concept branch, which provides our customers with the opportunity to experience Hong Kong's first Smart Teller service. We have also launched a simple mode for our mobile banking app to make using digital banking services more inclusive.

We're developing more sustainable finance products and services to meet the burgeoning demand from customers. This area offers exciting opportunities to diversify our loan portfolio and grow our commercial customer base in new economy sectors.

Lifestyle banking is also another emerging trend for the sector. Our new +Fun Dollars credit card rewards program, which will officially launch very soon, and Olive wellness app are 2 ways we're adding value for customers whilst winning a bigger share of their wallet.

Amidst the challenges of the past few years, we continued to focus on delivering best-in-class banking experiences to customers through business transformation. I offer heartfelt thanks to my colleagues for their contributions and passion as we advance towards this vision. Our 90th anniversary celebrations this year have been a wonderful opportunity, and will continue to be one, to share our joy and express gratitude to the entire Hong Kong community for their continued trust and support.

Whilst uncertainties remain in the outlook, reopening of the boundary has seen upswings in commercial and consumer activities that will fuel economic recovery in the region. We have a deeply connected network, a strategy that is already working and a compelling proposition that will win us new business across the Greater Bay Area and see us achieve sustainable long-term growth.

Perhaps I'll take a pause here. Thank you for your attention, and maybe we could take some questions.

[Shuk Man Law, executive]

Thank you, Diana, and Say Pin. We'll now begin our Q&A session. [Operator Instructions]. The gentleman on the first row, please.

[Tsz Ho Wong, analyst]

Sam Wong from Jefferies. I have 2 questions, if I may. First of all, I just want to get some quick color on the quarter-on-quarter NIM trajectory. So what's the NIM for first quarter, second quarter and the actual NIM for June?

And then secondly, I wonder if we started seeing any asset quality pressures on the Hong Kong commercial real estate book. Any color on that and a general comment on the second half asset quality order book would be very helpful.

[Say Saw, executive]

I'll take the NIM question first. Yes. I think everyone knows that in Q1, the NIM is not as great. It's lower than last year as well, lower than second half of last year because HIBOR has dropped to a low of 2.5% in February. And then rising from HKMA interventions, and it's slowly coming up to maybe 3%, 3.5% in March and April, and then continued to above 4% in June. So in general, first quarter margin is below the 2% for second half of 2022, not far from that, but it's lower.

One of the other reasons why it's not dropped significantly is because we have been very effectively trying to manage in terms of -- because of the weak loan demand, and we do not need so much liquidity, we are not that aggressive in the fixed deposit competition in terms of pricing. And therefore, we managed to maintain that decent level of margin Q1. Going into Q2, obviously, with the recovery of -- not recovery -- the upliftment in the HIBOR and therefore, obviously, the margin in second quarter is much better. And rising from that, first half is 2.09%. So you could imagine, because the first quarter below 2%, second quarter will be much, much higher to bring it to 2.09%.

[Diana Ferreira Cesar, executive]

And perhaps Kathy could take the question on asset quality.

[Ka Wai Cheung, executive]

Okay. Thank you, Sam. In terms of asset quality, other than China's CRE sector, we didn't see any systemic risk in other sectors. For the second half, we might see one or two, a couple, of property investors, Hong Kong property investors, that might need corporate recovery help. But having said that, they are fully secured, so not a big concern in that sector. Thank you.

[Diana Ferreira Cesar, executive]

Thank you, Sam.

[Shuk Man Law, executive]

Thank you, Kathy. This gentleman, please.

[Nicholas Lord, analyst]

It's Nick Lord from Morgan Stanley. Can I just follow up a little bit on NIM and maybe just press a little bit more on what the exit NIM was, I think, this summer?

And then secondly, if you could maybe just talk a little bit about if we're going to see more loan repricing, so whether we're going to see NIM progression continue into the second half. And also if you maybe want to comment a little bit about the loan growth outlook and whether that means you'll be able to continue to improve your funding mix and bring down your time deposits in the second half as well.

[Say Saw, executive]

Okay. I think for loan growth, you could see from my results, for first half, our loans growth is actually not as great. And compared to the market, the market dropped by 0.5% for the first half, we dropped more significantly compared to that number. One of the reasons is that besides the weak loan demand, it's also our continued de-risking in our China corporate real estate portfolio. We can show -- subsequently, we have an appendix showing that it has actually gone down further to $40 billion. And you can also see from our disclosure pack.

So from a loans growth into second half, our view is it could be better than first half. However, it all depends on the economic outcome overall and also the demand from the customers considering the high HIBOR and high U.S. dollar that is in the market. Relatively, the onshore borrowing in renminbi will be cheaper, and also that kind of scenario is panning out as well for customers and corporates.

So it's many factors that would drive the loans growth in second half. Majority of our books, for analysts who follow us, 70-over percent of our books are actually Hong Kong dollars, with 13%, 14% in U.S. dollars, and remaining in other foreign currency, but majority in renminbi. So that dynamic will work out over the next 6 months or 12 months or so for all banks, including Hang Seng.

[Diana Ferreira Cesar, executive]

Thank you, Nick. I think the only point I would add -- I think Say Pin covered very articulately the core reasons for the decline, whether it be de-risking, whether it be subdued loan demand, yes, uncertainties in the outlook, cheaper renminbi onshore borrowing. I think it's fair to say that for us, the priority remains to de-risk but, at the same time, select the target segments we wanted to venture into.

Your question also alluded to pricing of loan -- repricing of loans. I think first things first, I do believe second half, with interest rates probably sustained at a higher level as opposed to easing happening, I think the loan demand will continue to be subdued. And on that note, I think pricing pretty much is market-driven, if we want it to be, supporting certain clients. Then predominantly, we wouldn't be doing anything too differently. But the priority, I'd say, continues to remain on the de-risking first and then venturing into new sectors that we target to select. Yes.

[Nicholas Lord, analyst]

we obviously saw positive Q-on-Q NIM momentum in Q2 versus Q1. So given that outlook, given what you know about what you need to fund, and presumably you don't need as many time deposits so you can continue to switch towards CASA, do you think you can continue that positive NIM momentum from the end of 2Q into the rest of the year?

[Diana Ferreira Cesar, executive]

Yes, I would expect there could be moderate uptake in the second half on the NIM. Say Pin can jump in any time, but between -- it's a delicate balance, right, between going after market share in terms of deposits, growing your deposits. But given our ample liquidity and what you use the fund for, right? So between that, the healthy growth and protecting or improving our NIM, I think it's fair to say that given our ample liquidity, we will continue to target customers, to recruit new customers, of course, with new customer acquisition. And I already mentioned just now that we have been growing customers, you would expect there'd be deposits coming in. But that's on a very selected targeted basis vis-a-vis going broadbrush, to go after with aggressive DMD pricing to go after deposit share.

That said, I think the flip side of that would be, if we manage that balance and barring very surprising development on pricing from competition, I would say there's a fair chance that we should be getting slightly moderate uptick in our second half NIM.

Would that be fair assessment?

[Say Saw, executive]

Yes. I think based on the management's internal discussions and forecast, I think Diana just articulated it's quite reflective. And the reason for that, I think I would like to highlight, which I think was mentioned before, which is with liquidity ratios, coverage ratios, at 230.6%, actually, we have the ability, just like what Diana says, to do tactical solutions in terms of how we want to drive strategically. So we want to be very focused in terms of how we want to drive our strategy rather than purely a market share play in the market going into second half and especially, going into 2024, where market is expecting rate cycle change and we need to be very, very careful in defending profitability as well.

[Shuk Man Law, executive]

In the interest of time, let's take the last question.

[Gurpreet Sahi, analyst]

My name is Gurpreet Sahi. I work with Goldman Sachs. First question is -- if I may have two, please. First question is on the CASA. So we heard that the CASA ratio improved, that the management wanted to improve the deposit mix. But overall deposits did fall, right? So from a business standpoint, I want to understand, when did that happen? Was it between -- in terms of month? Was it personal customers or corporate customers? How did the management think about business being let go in terms of these customers in future could have provided us wealth management, corporate loan growth, et cetera? So how do you think about that? Because as Nick and others have asked, we might go back to our offices and model that, okay, CASA is stable, NIM is going up, we might be wrong. Second half deposits might fall 10%. So on NII, we might be wrong.

Now the second question is, very surprisingly, Say Pin maybe it's for you, on the IFRS 17, right, so banks that have disclosed have shown the profit is smaller and conceptually right, right? From IFRS 4, you moved to 17. Then previously, we were booking all of the upfront insurance income on day 1, NPV adjusted, of course. And now we have to book as we go, right, every year. So how come the profits are up? I think -- please tell us about the different offsets there? And then it was only a number disclosed for first half. Can we also see the full year number, please?

[Say Saw, executive]

Okay. The full year number will be disclosed when we do. I don't know whether the team can pull out the appendix. Okay, I think you can see -- I think that's what you're referring to, which is also in the disclosure pack that we are seeing -- or we are circulating out.

So I think IFRS 17 is a very complex accounting standard, but we try to do it in a very simplistic manner, is that prior to 17, which is IFRS 4, or Hong Kong IFRS 4, we recognized revenue present value, the full revenue, right, and then amortized it -- sorry, upfront, based on a discounted value. And therefore, you would credit your revenue and then debit your assets. However, with IFRS 17, you have an unearned income, which is a liability, and you try to amortize that over the contract period. I want to reemphasize again, this does not change the strategy we have in terms of our insurance business. It's more an accounting change that we are having.

In terms of -- so we reiterate all this IFRS 17 changes, actually. As you could tell, this one has gone to rigorous review and challenge and ordered even by our external auditors who actually follow us from the beginning of our projects to the end. I think we have a session subsequently tomorrow, or I could go into the great detail rather than do this, on the press release because then you go into the technicality, if you know what I mean. But I think what I wanted the team to do for today is just to show, in a very summarized format, which is good to show, what is the adjustment and how does it impact the profit, the assets and, more importantly, the equity. So I can go into the detail maybe separately. If anyone is interested, I can talk about IFRS 17 the whole day, but I don't think you want that.

[Diana Ferreira Cesar, executive]

And the first part of the question was NII outlook and NIM as well as CASA.

[Say Saw, executive]

Okay. CASA, okay, I think -- don't get us wrong. Our CASA balances actually dropped, too. I think it's a denominator effect in terms of our time deposit dropped more. And therefore, overall percentage of CASA as a percentage of time deposits actually go up by 2% to 61%. However, I must say that, that is a lot of effort from our businesses team, whether from the wholesale or from a retail perspective, in trying to get and retain CASA. As you could see that there's a lot of attractions out there for people to migrate their CASA to time deposit, to silver bonds, to managing that out in the market. So it does not come with no effort from the team. So that is that.

Going into second half, as I said, because of our liquidity positions, and also Diana briefly mentioned, if you collect a lot of liquidity coming in and you have not found a profitable deployment, that will further eat into your profitability. So you need to balance that versus your market share, versus what optics you want to send to the market in terms of your overall customer deposit base and so on. So we constantly month-on-month, in our management forum, actually discuss all those elements and do some tactical solutions now and then to make sure that we try to steer to the directions that we want to steer in terms of CASA balances and also in terms of total deposit balances. This, we have done it in the first half. We will continue this journey into second half and also into 2024.

NIM directions, I think Diana just now quite well articulated it in terms of we are cautiously optimistic that there will be a moderate increase in NIM. That, of course -- I think the word Diana used, barring -- there are many factors that will drive that, where HIBOR is going to be. We don't think that is going to relax the rates this year. So that's one angle. The other angle is again, competition. There are competitions, what competitions do. Okay, we say that we consider deployment, but we also consider optically what we do for customers.

So the conclusion is tactical solution is what we will do. Targeted customer segment and what we want to do will all steer towards the strategic directions that we want to deliver, which is diversifying our revenue stream, acquisitions of customers in the segments that we want to be for future growth. So these are all the considerations that the management will consider before we do any tailor-made solutions that are going into second half. Hope that answers your question.

[Diana Ferreira Cesar, executive]

Thank you, Say Pin. Gurpreet, if I may, just to your question, we will remain attractive clearly to our target segment. So pricing on deposits to our target segments will all have to be attractive and comparable to market. But what I wanted to be very clear is, with the balance of what you will use the fund for and the cost of holding that fund and the current liquidity position against market share, I wouldn't go broadbrush to really ramp up on pricing to draw the deposit market share for the sake of deposit market share.

[Shuk Man Law, executive]

Thank you, Say Pin, and thank you, Diana. And this is the end of our session. Thank you, everyone, for joining us today.

[Diana Ferreira Cesar, executive]

I think we will be speaking very soon, in the next day or 2.

[Say Saw, executive]

Tomorrow.

[Diana Ferreira Cesar, executive]

Yes. Thank you.