Mapspeople A/S

CSE:MAPS

Earnings Call Transcript 2023-Q3

[Michael Gram, executive]

Welcome to today's presentation, where we have the pleasure to present Mapspeople. To handle us through today's presentation, we are joined by CEO, Jens Brøgger; and CFO, Jesper Tidemand.

Today is -- the main subject of today's presentation will be our Q3 financial report and the results. And of course, also the notice you gave on potential capital requirements to the market.

As always, you are very much welcome to ask questions in the box down below. Through the presentation. I will see if it fits in or else, we will take it in the end and pick up everything there. And as always, you are very welcome to ask it in Danish also, and I will try and translate to the best of my ability. But for now, I think I will hand the call over to you on Jens.

[Jens Brøgger, executive]

Perfect. Thank you, Michael. I think we're going to go through today just a little bit by the isolated highlight numbers for Q3, then talk a little bit about all the things that's going on and explain that in further details and then go back to explaining how the business is going. In the end, Jesper will basically give us a good walk-through of the Q3 results.

So let me start by giving a little bit of an overview. We grew our ARR from the business again, this quarter. This time, the quarter grew around DKK 5 million in ARR, delivered and invoiced, which constitutes around 11% growth from the quarter before that. And that puts us to a place where we are growing 75% year-over-year. So still a very nice growth in our ARR, invoiced and delivered. And that has been the focus for the company for the last year.

So I'm pleased that we continue doing this in a good way. You will also see that the majority of that growth comes from our core growth products, which is MapsIndoors. Mainly all the growth in the third quarter came from that product, DKK 5 million again, which is 15% growth quarter-over-quarter on that product and already like more than 100% year-on-year from our MapsIndoors products.

And we continue to have an extremely healthy net retention rate. I will speak about that a little bit later, try and explain why this is something that we expect will continue in the future as well.

We did also, last week, come down -- come out with the company announcement, where we were downward adjusting our guidance on where we end the year in annual recurring revenue. We used to be guiding from DKK 77 million to DKK 87 million, and we're now guiding DKK 58 million to [ DKK 54 million ].

We are maintaining our guidance on recognized revenue of DKK 38 million to DKK 45 million, and we are maintaining our guidance on EBITDA negative, minus DKK 52 million to DKK 62 million. Let me talk a little bit about this one.

There's a couple of things that was impacting that adjustment on our ARR guidance. The first one is that we made some mistakes that we found out, and we, of course, corrected them and announced them to the market. A lot of these mistakes was how we counted churn when customers were turning away.

And the mistake was stemming from when we used to report contracted ARR to now delivered and invoiced ARR. It's a little bit complicated, but let me try do the best with a good example here because it's really important to us.

When we used to have contracted ARR, we had partners who had committed a contract. These partners have end customers. If one of the end customers was turning away, it didn't change the contracted value that the partner had with us and thereby, was not implicit churn in that one. Clearly, when we move to report ARR as invoiced and delivered ARR, that methodology didn't work, and not all of it has been cleaned out the way it should be. So we've done this.

There were some [ periodization ] mistakes as well or incorrect elements stemming from the same, I would say, root cause in this one. And that's fundamentally meant that we had to adjust the ARR according to business now, have been corrected. This had an impact of around a little bit more than DKK 6 million. And of course, the numbers in the financial report in this presentation has been corrected with that number. So it's a like-for-like and apples-to-apples comparison that is in here.

We also foresee that it's going to take a little bit longer converting all these framework agreements into prepaid platform licenses. Despite the good growth we have from our partners, a lot of these contracts are running out next year, and we were somewhat too optimistic about our ability to convert them into prepaid platform licenses this year.

And we are now seeing that it's going to take a little bit longer for some of these contracts, and it makes more sense to expect them in the beginning of the year. It simply will take too much negotiation leverage away from us to do this and to [ hurl ] this. And we feel that it is more likely that this will happen during 2024. So we adjusted our ARR guidance with this one.

And the last element that impacted that is we have a large customer from the Point Inside acquisition, which is currently under renegotiation. And we're flagging that as a risk that this could renew and this could not renew. And that is around DKK 3.5 million as well. So we took all these elements into account when we adjusted the guidance of our ARR.

It should also be fair to say that we did protect ourselves in the purchase agreement of Point Inside about all the stuff that half the purchase amount, which is in shares, is held in escrow until all the contract has renewed. So should it not renew, this actually means we will be able to claw back half the purchase agreement from that escrow account. That is not our intention. The intention is, of course, to renew this contract.

Now these things and adjustment here clearly also impact our P&L and thereby also our cash, going forward. So this means that we are now looking into, at the moment, a capital requirement through this year and to the end of 2024 somewhere between DKK 15 million and DKK 20 million, we are currently working on solving.

Clearly, if we renew this customer, I just spoke about before the year is over, then it's DKL 3.5 million less that you can take out of that span. But currently, we're working with that. We have the opportunity to draw down the last loan we have with EIFO.

But that is triggered by a certain ARR targets, where with these adjustments, we're a little bit behind. So we're having a discussion on how we can do this, and we will continue working both on the loan side and see whether we need to do a targeted capital raise as well.

That is not something we have a concrete plan on exactly how to do it. It's something we're working on, and we feel comfortable that we can do this.

[Michael Gram, executive]

Is it fair to say more that most of this because you keep your revenue and your EBITDA guidance unchanged despite of this? So is it fair to say that these delays are primarily affecting '24 and your ability to run it up, if you had started the year, you would have had more revenue coming in? So is that a fair assumption to kind of give to this? And my -- maybe you haven't changed your revenue and earnings guidance for this year?

[Jens Brøgger, executive]

Yes. These things are not really impacting us, but some of them are a little bit. But clearly, when we talk ARR, it's the annual recurring revenue, and when we invoice most of our annual recurring revenue, most of our contracts are 12 months in advance, which means we get the money and account before we deliver the services over the next coming 12 months to the customers, right?

Whereas we are only recognizing revenue through the period that we deliver the goods. So if you pay us 120 for a year, then we recognize the revenue with 10 every month, like very simplified.

So clearly, that means that some it indirect has an input on how we can recognize revenue if it's churned or delayed, then it will have an impact. But the later in the year that this happens, the less impact it will have in this accounting year and the more we'll have in the next accounting year.

And clearly, since we are keeping our guidance, the underlying business here is healthy. And clearly, we're also managing our cost in a very strong way, I would say. I hope that answered the question, Michael.

[Michael Gram, executive]

Perfect. Good.

[Jens Brøgger, executive]

So that's really with the guidance. But yes, as I said in the last point here, we are very comfortable that we'll deliver revenue and EBITDA within the 2023 guidance that has been out there. So we can do some change. And you will see that when Jesper just goes through the number where we are in revenue, where we are in EBITDA. It will clearly indicate that we are very comfortable there.

Good. Let me talk about some of the good healthy underlying components of the business. Again, you will see here on this graph where we are showing the last 4 quarters. You will see that there is a nice growth that I spoke about in the first page.

You'll see again that we grew DKK 5 million on our ARR in Q3 -- from Q2 to Q3, so 11% growth here. And you'll see that most of the growth is really coming from MapsIndoors, which is like completely aligned with the [ strain ] that we've been communicating. You will see still a pretty strong growth on a year-over-year basis as well.

[ I should ] put a little bit more work, I tried to put it in the text here as well because again, it shows and tells a little bit more about this business and the elements of stability that's been brought into it, when it comes to as growth being generated from.

Around half of this growth in Q3 came from existing partners. Through existing partners, we're selling more to their customers and ordering these services to us, and we deliver them a good [ investment ]. So the partner strategy is absolutely working, and more than half of our growth comes from existing partners.

So this strategy that we've been working on and what we've been communicating in the last couple of quarters are still working fine, and it's still on track. And I would say, let's also remind ourselves at Q3 when it comes to business to business, it's always one of the weakest quarters in the year because people are spending a lot of time on vacation. So I'm actually very happy about this, both our overall results and what is coming from our existing partners.

We also had a bit of expansion from some of our existing large direct customers. This was mainly driven from one very large international global direct customer as well, which fundamentally renewed their contract and grew it from $180,000 on a yearly basis to $360,000 on an annual basis. So we still have some very healthy large direct customers, and that's also a good sign.

And then what also makes me happy is that around 1/4 of that growth came from new partners that was signed up into a business that we signed and delivered in this quarter to partners that we have not had revenue from before.

So all in all, I'm actually very pleased with the overall performance for the quarter. Of course, I would always like it to be better, but I'm actually pleased with it. But the way that the growth is coming in is exactly what we've been working on, and that seems to be delivering fine. And I foresee a similar picture for the coming quarters.

[Michael Gram, executive]

I don't know whether you published this or told them, how much of this is coming from the existing order book that you are converting into an invoiced? And how much are from new businesses coming that you didn't have a line in a potential order book? Can you give us some feeling of that?

[Jens Brøgger, executive]

Yes. I think the best way to articulate it is that the majority of the 2.3 million coming from existing partner -- growth is from that order book. That's the way to look at it. Clearly, the expansion of these large customers is not from the order book, that's a new order. And clearly, the 1.3 million from new partners and customers. This is not from the order book. That is new stuff going into the order book.

Let's talk a little bit about this one. And clearly, you can see that's some of the correction in there we have is reflecting this one. I think that the things to really keep an eye on here is the cohort from 2022 and into 2024.

The 2 top graphs on the left, and you will see that we have added some good chunk of business on this, and you will see that this continue to grow. So this is exactly what we talked about, customers and partners in particular, who keeps selling more to their end customers and buying more from us.

So this is showing the picture there going forward. And that's also what's fundamentally paving the road for this very healthy net retention rate that we have, then I want to put a few words on the next slide, right?

Then you can clearly see it here in the past year that the ARR base that we have in -- from that period, and those customers are growing through this year. And you see with all the stuff that we put on top of it this year to date or the last 12 months. It actually also shows that continuous trend will be extremely helpful for us.

Let's try and talk a little bit about this one because the net retention rate of 129% is really good, right? It is just underpinning that this partner strategy is working. So the partners that we get activated, the partners who is using our product to help them grow their business and having successful partners there is driving growth into our business and is driving growth into our ARR. And that is giving us some very nice net retention rate.

And again, just to make sure that we all understand that. If we, for instance, end this year with DKK 50 million in MapsIndoors annual recurring revenue, and we maintain a net retention rate of 129 for next year, that means that, that customer base of 50 million will generate 50 million of new ARR next year.

So it's a pretty significant growth that we are currently getting from these customers. And keeping that at that level will continue to deliver a pretty significant element of growth in the future.

And this growth really comes from existing partners adding new customers and new projects to their customer base and thereby to the product that they consume also in MapsIndoors. There's no price increases or anything in here. This is fundamentally just business as usual, being driven primarily with our partners and some of our large customers, as we mentioned, which has expanded their contracts with us.

And the way that the business is going right now, we do see a very good rationale that this very healthy net retention rate will continue into Q4 at comparable levels that we've seen last quarter and this quarter as well. So this is not 2 lucky quarters. It is an underlying business trend we have. Clearly, it will be more and more difficult in the future to retain them at 129%, but it's a very good trend. But that's just the law of math, right, as you [ grow ] bigger.

[Michael Gram, executive]

And I guess what also made it healthy when I see this, that is that it's not only conversion also from the order book that drives ARR, it is actually, if I can go down to a bigger part that is driving from your expansion not only on the order book, converting it, but that your customers get new customers and this big renewal with a higher price that is driving it. So I guess that is also a healthy sign. Is that correct?

[Jens Brøgger, executive]

Yes, it comes from that. Some of it also comes from the order book, Michael, to be very honest, because we have partners who were like -- let's say, they were like DKK 1 million last year. And then they have an order book, and they are starting to deliver according to that order book and they go up.

So it actually also comes from this order book. Clearly, the order book and clearly, the framework and clearly, the partner ecosystem is a lot of the rationale behind this high net retention rate on our end.

If I should say something about this, where have we seen it and this is not on the slide, but where we see this growth coming from our customer base that is delivering this one? It is, again, clearly the partners we have within the corporate office space and employee engagement. We've seen high activity in the event space and the [ sports ] venues. Again, so this is continuing after the pandemic.

And we're seeing some things in the public safety element. And again, the healthcare has also been a sector that is driving a lot of the growth here. So like super healthy underlying verticals that is delivering some of this year -- some of this growth from our partners.

[Michael Gram, executive]

So it is broad-based. It's not only driven by the office segment, which, of course, maybe constitutes the biggest opportunity in the short-term market, but it's actually broad-based? And second -- whether you can answer that. And secondly, you have been talking about retail, but there's no mention of that in the reporting. So should we look at it a little bit away? Is that still too early for you to drive something there?

[Jens Brøgger, executive]

No. You should definitely not [ discuss ] this as well. But right now, we're talking about net retention rate. We did not have a lot of revenue in the retail sector at 12 months ago. It hasn't really hit us here yet.

[Michael Gram, executive]

But you also don't mention it in your reporting when you described the market growth. So that was why I was wondering.

[Jens Brøgger, executive]

Yes. And that's mainly because not a lot of growth in Q3 came from the retail space. But there's still quite a lot of activity in that also in our sales funnel and sales pipeline.

Let's talk about this graph, which is pretty important to me. This graph shows our CAC, customer acquisition cost, payback, which fundamentally means that when we spend money in marketing and sales to acquire a new customer and new ARR, how long time does it take us to pay back the investment in sales and marketing.

And I've been speaking about this in the last quarter, so that was too high, and we needed to get it down. And we set an objective, it should be below 18 months when we end this year. And that was important to me because we needed to have a very capital-efficient growth engine being set up.

The really good news here is that we -- in Q3, we surpassed the objectives for the quarter, and we got our CAC payback period down to 14 months. Meaning that every time we grow our business with 140, we paid back with 100 a month. So it takes a little bit more than a year to pay this back.

And since the lifetime value of our contracts are still around [ 16 ] months or [ 16 ] months-plus, it's a very healthy business because then you have like [ 16 ] months, minus 14 months, where the gross margin for this business or these customers are contributing into the business and the profitability of the business.

So getting this down to 14 months is a good solid achievement that I'm happy about. And clearly, also, this is important because most of our customers are paying for this business with 12 months upfront. So this means that it is almost balancing. I would even say if it gets below 12 months, I would claim, yes, we may claim differently, then we are spending too little on sales and marketing.

So if we can stay in this area here between 12 and 15, I'm actually very happy for an enterprise SaaS business on how it's growing specifically when we talk about these net retention rates that we have in the business in the previous page as well.

So then getting to this level of 14 month payback on our sales investment for new revenue is -- I'm actually very pleased and very proud that we did this.

Clearly streamlining our sales, focusing on what it is and delivering the growth in our area, these two things goes hand in hand here, right? But the initiatives that we put in place and what the sales team are working with are showing the results here. And clearly, that will be now the objective to basically manage it here just above 12 months, going forward.

So I think with that, let's go to all the real numbers, and I'm going to hand over to Jesper to see -- he's been looking forward to it with a little smile.The real numbers, Jesper. Please, go ahead.

[Jesper Tidemand, executive]

The real numbers, no. I think what you said was also real about that. But yes, it's, of course, the P&L, the recognized revenue, the recognized numbers. If we see third quarter, we delivered recognized DKK 10.7 million in recognized revenue compared to Q2, where we also delivered 10.7. It hasn't changed.

But if we look in the notes in our Q3 report, you'll see that our MapsIndoors revenue -- recognized revenue has increased [ 14% ]. So we have increased our MapsIndoors business, but the total revenue is stable. But yes, MapsIndoors is increasing, and that's also connected to our ARR that has also increased in Q3.

But total year-to-date, DKK 30 million, and our guidance is in the range of DKK 38 million to DKK 45 million. So we are, as [ Brogger ] said, pretty comfortable that we're going to deliver in the range of the guidance.

If we look at other external costs, it's 5.4 in Q2. We had a cost at 6.1. So it's -- we have reduced our costs to other external expenses. And also, as mentioned, when we presented the Q2 reporting, our cost reduction we carried out in April is we are going to see the effect, and we're also going to see the effect in the Q4.

And it's the same story when we look at our staff costs we had this month -- or sorry, this quarter, 20.1 compared to 22.1 in Q2, so that's the same. Also to this is that, of course, there are some vacation and holiday allowance adjustments in Q3, but mainly because of cost reductions.

And it leaves us to our EBITDA.

We delivered minus 12.8 in Q3 compared to 15.7, so it's also a reduction of 20%. And we are also very comfortable that we are going to deliver in our guidance range at [ DKK 52 million to DKK 62 million ]. So yes, in general, we'll see the carried-out cost reductions made in April that we're going to see the effect, we'll see the full effect in Q4, but we see some effect in Q3.

[Michael Gram, executive]

So we do in this quarter -- and this quarter, we still don't see the full effect. There is still something running through it and, of course, into the full year of '24 also, I guess, annualized. So this is not a picture where, if we look at this, that we could just forward it, is that correctly understood that you still have a part? How big a part -- and I know that's sometimes hard to quantify, how much of -- is it 50% true, 75% true? And what should we be looking for in control?

[Jesper Tidemand, executive]

Jens, can you put some -- I'm not sure about the numbers. Michael, I can't give you a number, if that's what you're asking for.

[Michael Gram, executive]

No, no, I'm not asking for a number. It's to get a feel how much you are true on your cost programs. And what we are seeing here, 60% implemented, 70% implemented or something like that. I'm not asking for a specific number. I know you don't guide on quarters.

[Jesper Tidemand, executive]

A lot of it was out in the end of August, start of September. So we'll -- yes, maybe 50% in the Q3.

[Michael Gram, executive]

Yes. Yes. Perfect. That makes sense.

[Jesper Tidemand, executive]

Brogger, sorry, you're muted.

[Jens Brøgger, executive]

Sorry about that. I also turned off background noise. All the cost reductions are implemented. But since some of these cost reductions are related to salaries, there are termination periods, where you will continue to pay for these termination periods, and they differ from individual to individual, right, sometimes.

So when these are ending, and they all -- they should all have ended towards the end of Q3, some of them a little bit earlier. That's why I would say, the way we see it, we probably see in Q3 around 50% is my big -- it's my best guess here, right? You'll see a little bit of an improvement from that in Q3.

And then on top of that, we continue to work very focused on simplifying our organization, making sure that we have like very lean processes, very focused on our customers, [ short dialogue ], and I will continue to drive additional efficiency in the business beyond what we did back in April. But you'll see us continue to be more efficient, going into 2024.

So I think these trends are important as I should somehow [ clear ] it from my point of view on what Jesper said, right? The business is growing well. The recognized revenue is where it should be. I hope you can see why we kept the guidance on that and on EBITDA. And we have good visibility, and we have good cost control in the business.

And clearly, that means with the ARR growth that we're delivering, let's say, it's around plus/minus 100% in our guidance here. With these cost efficiencies that is being delivered and a constant focus on simplifying the businesses and the processes we have, this will drive a significant improvement on our EBITDA and our profitability, moving into 2024.

[Michael Gram, executive]

Perfect. Should we go for some questions? There's a question here. What is your order book? And is something lost when comparing to the start of [ Q3 ]? To kind of get a feel, have you lost something on the way not [ converting ]? Or is it primarily delays converting this to [ train ] voice? And I don't know whether you want to give a number on the order book at the end of Q3.

[Jens Brøgger, executive]

It's a little bit of the both. I don't think that the order book has significantly changed. It's probably like a little bit smaller than it was, but no significant changes.

But clearly, like what happens when you're trying to convert a framework agreement into a prepaid platform license and talking to a partner to invest upfront, that requires giving some consignment into this one and thereby reducing the unit pricing or reducing the committed amount. And this is also fundamentally one of the reasons why it's not necessarily the best idea to push this through because then these consignment might be too big.

It's more important to get the customer live and see how they're working, right? So I think there's nothing significantly changed in the order book. We are converting from it into ARR.

And a lot of the new customers that we have on -- come onboard directly as prepaid platform licenses and go directly from like signing an order to being invoiced and then into ARR, so they're not adding into the order book. So we are eating a little bit away of it on a quarterly basis, which is exactly as planned, right?

[Michael Gram, executive]

And maybe a follow-up question on that. When you -- the customers that you convert to this prepaid converting, do they have the end customers already? Or is it you converting to an agreement maybe with some reductions?

Or are you seeing -- do you have a feel whether they have an end customer? Because that's would kind of indicate better health of -- and better chances of converting that. So a feel of the main reasons why you are still successful on converting something.

[Jens Brøgger, executive]

That's a really excellent question. I wish there was a simple answer to this, but it's kind of like a bit of both. It's the true answer here, right? It's fairly simple, how do we incentivize the customer to go into this one? The customer needs to see an upside into that as well, which means that converting into prepaid platform licenses, all other things equal, are easier, and there is a better joint value proposition.

If the partner has customers that they can migrate and move into this one,or they have like big sales and marketing [ processes ], where they know that they're going to grow their customer base in the near future, and some of them are incentivized to do this, and they get the license with the start [ take ] and an intake.

[Michael Gram, executive]

Perfect. Then there's the question to the stock price and maybe more about the liquidity, which is very low and whether you have given any thoughts on maybe how to bump up that liquidity. I know it's a question a lot of smaller companies, medium-sized companies are battling with. So have you given any thoughts on maybe how you could look at the liquidity?

[Jens Brøgger, executive]

Yes. Well, clearly, the business is fairly good and fairly healthy, like structure from a working capital point of view, right, because most of our customers are invoiced upfront, so we get the cash in before it actually turns into revenue. So from that point of view, the business is very traditional, very healthy, SaaS point of view.

Clearly, with the reduced guidance on the ARR. We are looking into a requirement, a capital requirement to get to the cash flow breakeven in 2024 for somewhere between DKK 15 million and DKK 20 million. And we're looking into different ways, as I said, like some of it through the loans that we're talking to our loan providers about.

We're going to work on that dimension. Clearly, we're going to work on renewing the customer that I said [ because ] of avenues that will help a lot because that is out of the forecast right now. And there may be an opportunity to raise a little bit of additional capital, which we discussed with our Board.

[Michael Gram, executive]

Perfect. Did you actually ask -- answer that -- and [ Christian ], I asked it very [ wrongly ] because I talked about stock. I mean this year, we know your share and liquidity that no amount of -- but that was actually about the composition of the -- maybe on the capital raise and then you already have [ handled ] by this one. So that's perfect.

So it's about the liquidity in the stock, and that's why a lot of small companies are fighting with [ giving ] some of the credit and so on. But have you -- maybe any thoughts on maybe how to better -- that's about the knowledge of the company and so on, I guess, also delivering the results of the market wants to see and so on?

But there's a question here about whether we have given any thought that this low liquidity that a lot of companies are suffering about right now.

[Jens Brøgger, executive]

Yes. And I would definitely [ preach ] into that [ choir ]. It is a little bit of a problem that there's so low liquidity on this one, right?

I think I wish there was a quick fix on this. I don't see it. And if I don't see it, I would like to be [ inspirable ]. It is, as you say, we need to keep talking about this company, but we need to tell the story, we need to be telling the story how big the market this is and that this nice little Danish company have a good chance of actually impacting that large global market.

We need to keep delivering growth in our business that documents and validates that vision. And then we need to explain that. And then hopefully, there will be more and more people who buy [ into it ]. Here is actually something, it kind of makes sense. With all digital [ twins ] as all smart buildings, I see the use cases. I start seeing it on my own phone, and I start using it. So there is a big market out here.

And then you -- it's easier to relate to from that point of view. And I think that will expand the market. But clearly, we also need to be better at communicating that and who we are in the role that we're playing in it. And Jesper and I have discussed this, and there's been a couple of new initiatives.

We also brought on board here this month, actually, a new Chief Marketing Officer, who will also be helping us on the communication side as well.

[Michael Gram, executive]

Perfect. And a lot of your product -- is your logo down there at the bottom, so people can connect it with the [ share ]? If the use of the -- is it your partners' logo? Or how is that just a small for...

[Jens Brøgger, executive]

Yes, it is mainly the partners' logos that are lining up.

[Michael Gram, executive]

Then just a question on this EIFO loan. What is the milestones you didn't live up to? And if you live up to them in the future, can you draw on that facility then? I don't know whether you want to specific on the milestones you didn't live up to. I guess you indicated it was something to do with the ARR.

It's more maybe also about the question, if I understand it correctly, that if you live up to it in the future, if you reach those targets that were set to draw on this EIFO loan, will you then be able to do that at that point in time? It's not, I will say, time kept that you should have reached it by now, and then we you get it.

[Jens Brøgger, executive]

It is a milestone, which was related to ARR. I don't think I can go into the details on this call. And this is exactly the conversation we are having.

[Michael Gram, executive]

And then actually you answered the question about that you are both looking at the equity, and you are looking at that -- so you have answered that.

Then there's a question, do you expect further consolidation in your sector in the current macro environment? I guess, there's some hesitance, still. So is that pushing on the consolidation in your business? And are you looking at it? Are you -- I know you will not answer the question, and then someone has contacted you for the -- there is some pressure still on some sectors. So do we see any more consolidation talk out in your industry?

[Jens Brøgger, executive]

I, personally, am convinced that there will be consolidation in our industry, right? It's a new industry. It's very fragmented. There's a lot of things that are moving, there's a lot of moving pieces. And the consolidation can be like very narrow in the part that we're in, but it could also be forward and backward consolidations.

So I will be surprised if you don't see consolidations in that one. I think that's my general view on this one, because you're right, if there were anything, we wouldn't comment on it at this point.

[Michael Gram, executive]

No. No, I know that. Perfect on -- and -- that was all the question and answers from the audience. Thank you to both of you for taking us through your presentation and answering questions, and thank you to the audience for listening in. May everybody have a nice day.